Are defenders extinct?

Are defenders extinct?

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Posted by: Yuffi.2430

Yuffi.2430

A couple of recent threads have set me thinking about the dedicated defenders I used to see in the home borderlands. I’d like some more info on whether these players are still there, have moved on or are (becoming or have become) extinct.

I’d appreciate it if you have the time to give brief feedback on a few questions:

1. How often do you play defence? Always, sometimes, occasionally? Never?!

2. Which maps do you defend? EB, BL, both?

3. Briefly, how do you spend your time on each map you play? Do you look after a whole map, small group of objectives, just stay and guard one place?

4. Are you usually solo or part of a team when playing defensively?


I anticipate that there will be more regular defenders in Eternal Battlegrounds than the Borderlands, and if this is so I’d be interested to know why players are making this choice – I think I know the answer but guessing is not the same as listening to facts. I also suspect that the defenders I used to see were a key part of WvW that could be easily overlooked because they are few in number but the role they played was important in terms of both spotting groups to fight and holding objectives gained.

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Posted by: msalakka.4653

msalakka.4653

I’m a veteran home border defender of about 2.5 years. I don’t really go to EB much; to illustrate this point I have 48k kills but I’ve captured SM 44 times and defended it 64 times (lol).

1) I don’t play as much now as I did before HoT, but when I do, I spend less time on defense as it isn’t really worth investing time and effort in.

2) Home borderland.

3) I used to scout and siege up objectives in the old borderland, but on the new one there is no point in doing so, so I primarily solo roam and flip camps and towers. The defense part of my routine has gone from pre-emptive to recovery: it is now more about turning paper towers back into the right colour.

4) I tend to start each night solo and mostly solo roam, but there is a small group of likeminded defenders with which I frequently am in squad with for better communication, and in instances where we actually defend a keep I tend to be with them.

Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~

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Posted by: gitflap.9031

gitflap.9031

Same as above, more or less, except I no longer play WvW. When I go to home border to use the facilities I still see a few of the old guard. It’s nice to see them but it makes me sad at the same time. I don’t even stop to ask them what they get up to these days but I hope they’re still having fun.

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Posted by: DeWolfe.2174

DeWolfe.2174

I also suspect that the defenders I used to see were a key part of WvW that could be easily overlooked

Pretty much this. They were overlooked and now mostly extinct.

[AwM] of Jade Quarry.

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Posted by: Sanchez.4017

Sanchez.4017

Been playing gw2 since release and currently 3,042 WvW rank(Platinum scout). 90% of my gaming hours are spent in T1.

1. Been a scout actively for first two years. Jumping around maps to search for enemies. Camping enemy spawn point for activity for hours. Guarding towers and keeps for hours During Season 1, I spent 20 hours on first day killing yaks to prevent enemy keep and tower from upgrading. Those are times when PPT are still desirable. Now they are sort of like cancer, people are starting to realise there’s no point going for PPT since the rewards are so undesirable even in seasons. Secondly, we are in T1 and we will be facing same opponents for the next year or two, so what’s the point?

2. Before HoT release, i used to hop around all maps and tends to find a guild commander pin to roll with them. After HoT release, i tend to stay only in eb unless i’m with my guild group. There’s very little to no actions in desert borderlands even in T1 off NA timezones.

3. All depend on the current active commander i’m following and what he wants. But now, i rather spend my full time in a zerg fights. Wasted too much time scouting in the past, commanders tends to take it for granted, just to be honest.

4. This is hard to say. Because let’s say if you are in contact with the current active commander and able to relay every piece of information but you are in fact scouting alone in the map. Is that consider solo or part of team? But yea, i tend to solo capture camps, kill yaks, sometime solo cap paper tower if there are no commander to follow.

I think the main reasons for the dedicated defenders to go extinct are
a) the side effects of auto upgrade. Although changed to depend on the number of yaks, very few people would want to escort yaks unless the server is PPT oriented.
b)years of PPT are enough for most people. I’m guessing either they quit the game totally or rather spend time in killing stuff
c)scouting is a very unrewarding job. Sometimes when you report an attack after hours of scouting an t3 objective, the fight guilds just want to contiune their fights and very reluntant to defend, and you watch your hard work just flip without any resistance. Nowadays, guilds in T1 usually has their own “information network point of contact”, so they know the whereabouts of the enemies better than having a honest scout in the map.

Ghost Scout – You can’t kill what you can’t see.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

I think the main reasons for the dedicated defenders to go extinct are
a) the side effects of auto upgrade. Although changed to depend on the number of yaks, very few people would want to escort yaks unless the server is PPT oriented.
b)years of PPT are enough for most people. I’m guessing either they quit the game totally or rather spend time in killing stuff
c)scouting is a very unrewarding job. Sometimes when you report an attack after hours of scouting an t3 objective, the fight guilds just want to contiune their fights and very reluntant to defend, and you watch your hard work just flip without any resistance. Nowadays, guilds in T1 usually has their own “information network point of contact”, so they know the whereabouts of the enemies better than having a honest scout in the map.

You forgot the biggest issue:
Desert border is so unpopular and loathed that there is no one to scout for thus rendering defense pointless.

(edited by Dawdler.8521)

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

In the olden days, your team would respond en masse to a call out because you didn’t want to lose a WP that took forever to upgrade, etc. Defending a tower or keep had a feeling of reward when the enemy was pushed out. And that reward was defending something you worked hard on getting built.

Now, with nobody wanting to play the BLs, calling for help is like pulling teeth. Smaller groups that were able to jump between maps now cannot be bothered to respond because the new Bay and Hills doesn’t give them a chance to WP in and save it. So it falls.

And it becomes a domino thing. If Bay and Hills fall, what’s the point really of defending garri? The attitude is “let them take the map, we’ll get it back later.”

WPs need to be returned to the home BL map — not divided up by team like in EB.

I’m glad the dolyaks play a role in upgrades now .. but the auto upgrade system has simply taken pride of ownership away from those defenders who loyally covered the home map.

Couple that with real life options — play the game in my free time and not be happy, or actually go out and do something is now an easier choice.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

(edited by Jayne.9251)

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

I play defense in EotM every day.

Low quality trolling since launch
Seafarer’s Rest EotM grinch

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Posted by: Sich.7103

Sich.7103

I was scout on home BL…. I liked to defend… Now I have just stop playing GW…
WvW was the only thing I played on GW2… And defending most of the time.

Now that defending is useless I have leave the game…

I have try the new map, take lot of hours to learn it… But this map is really a big piece of sh… Seriously… Keep to big… Who the hell will build a keep like the fire keep ? With wall everywhere to block your defensive siege ?!?
Generally you build a keep on top of some hills, with clear area around to see your ennemy and to be able to shoot back with siege… But fire keep is underground with no line of sight around… Palace is surounded with ton of clif… Same for rampart…
North tower are useless… Same as south tower…

Removing the tactical decision to upgrade or hold supply to build siege or repair is now gone… No more double doly on the supply camp, then no point to hold the supply camp…

Nop the defend side game is dead. Now the only thing to play is karma train. And I hate KT…

I’m just on the forum sometimes to see if they will change something on this game to maybe, maybe come back some day…

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Posted by: ScionKai.4907

ScionKai.4907

… Who the hell will build a keep like the fire keep ? With wall everywhere to block your defensive siege ?!?
Generally you build a keep on top of some hills, with clear area around to see your ennemy and to be able to shoot back with siege… But fire keep is underground with no line of sight around… Palace is surounded with ton of clif… Same for rampart…
North tower are useless… Same as south tower…

This was amusing to read because it is true. I’m sure plausibility is extremely low on the priority list for the GW2 dev team, but some of these new defensive structures are confoundingly bad.

The strategic and tactical advantages in many of the new structures is absurdly nonexistent. The map in general is just way too overtuned and I hope in the update they go back to some more simplistic designs like the old maps. We don’t need a choke, bunker. bend, hole, cliff, hiding spot, bridge, wall or any other annoying terrain every 10 feet.

Spread landmarks out, and make defensive structures smaller and more sensible so they are capable of fulfilling their purpose (and they definitely need much better line of site.

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Posted by: Sinbold.8723

Sinbold.8723

Defenders are almost extinct because its too time consuming to get around the new map. Look at the desert bl’s and notice something common about them? Both south towers are rarely, if ever, owned by the home team. It’s easier and faster to run to Cursed Shore from LA than it is to run to a south tower from spawn in the new bl’s. This is NOT conducive to active and fun play on defense.

Jayne.9251 hit the bull’s eye with her post above. How does/did Anet WvW devs NOT see this? I wish I could +1,000 that post so they’d see it.

Sich.7103 also nailed it above, as ScionKai.4907 mentions and brilliantly expands on. I think the dev team should have gone to Wales and toured every Edwardian castle there, then duplicated as much of that terrain as possible for WvW borderlands.

Here are my responses to the original questions:
1. How often do you play defence? Always, sometimes, occasionally? Never?!
On Alpine, I always started in home bl and many times never left until I had to log out, or got called to EBG. Always had a lot of action because the terrain was conducive to fighting, and defending our WP’s was a priority. On Desert, I’ll try to recapture what we don’t own if there’s a group big enough to take the keeps, or get a friend or two for smaller objectives. If no one is available and shrines and camps need to be re-taken, I’ll go do that.
2. Which maps do you defend? EB, BL, both?
Mostly home bl, then opponent’s bl for camps and towers. Opponents keeps if we have a full party or more.
3. Briefly, how do you spend your time on each map you play? Do you look after a whole map, small group of objectives, just stay and guard one place?
4. Are you usually solo or part of a team when playing defensively?
Depends on the people I’m running with. I have a friend I’ve played with since Prophecies and we like to see if we can take objectives with just the two of us. Skirmishes are a blast if and when we can find them. We’ve won some 2v5 fights and lost some 2v1 fights. We’ve driven off attackers while defending a structure, which is always a hoot. If some guildies are going to hit an enemy’s BL, we’ll jump in with them and flip as much as we can to draw defenders to the map. It’s difficult to look after the whole map if the enemy is smart. Defending Air and Fire keeps can be difficult unless you have a lot of people, simply because as mentioned above they are not designed well. Rampart, or Earth Keep, is easier to defend. Because of the WP, it’s easier to get people to come defend if needed. Solo defense of the keeps is near impossible because if the attacking group is large enough, by the time you see swords on the objective, run 4 miles to cover a quarter mile as the crow flies to reach the objective, you still have a huge area to search for where the target is getting hit. If no defensive siege had been built previously, by the time you find out where their catas or trebs are located, its too late to build if you’re solo.

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Posted by: Xenesis.6389

Xenesis.6389

Why would any old regular scout or defender be around these days?
They released an automated upgrade system that didn’t require scouts to look after.
They released a guildhall that destroyed small wvw guilds that for the most part were regular scouts and defenders.
They destroyed guild catas that made it easier for a handful of defenders to take back their stuff when it wasn’t prime time.
They released a map that very little wanted to play on.
That drove players out of wvw or the game.
That then drove most remaining players to ebg and eotm, who wants to leave ebg for defense calls when it’s queued now?

They left all that crap in for 3 months now, enough time for players to change their play style and do something else.

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill