Guild Wars 2

@Myself

Just had an epiphany!

Wonder if WvW map structure could be re-engineered to do the following:

1) Allow WvW Players to pick any Home World map to enter.

NA (24) or EU (27) Home World Maps.

2) All WvW Home World Maps are setup to allow 2 entry points.

Home team & Any WvW Invader.

3) Enable Home Team Free Automatic Upgrades.

4) Disable Enemy Free Automatic Upgrades on a Player’s Home map.

Imagine being able to play any of the 51 Home World maps. This would be like the GvG maps from Guild Wars 1, but on a World Wide Scale!

What do you think WvW Jedi Knights…I mean Veterans?

Diku

Diku.2546:

Hi everybody,

The Upcoming Automatic WvW Upgrades has many of us worried.

I hope the Guild Wars 2 Developer Teams will see this post and consider some points that I’d like to point out.

---

Home World – Automatic Upgrades & No Cost
EB World – Manual Upgrades & Cost Based (Gold / Karma / WvW Points)
Enemy Worlds – Manual Upgrades & Cost Based (Gold / Karma / WvW Points)

Cheers!
Diku

I like this and it could work in conjunction with the new system, only difference being the trigger event. The other reason I like the manual trigger of the upgrades is that it requires someone to return to the structures to kick off the next set of upgrades. That way you don’t have one side just night capping right after prime time and getting free fully T3 items in the morning. Only thing I might add is a way to use badges as well, aka allow multiple types of currency to be accepted for the upgrades.

@TheGrimm

ANet will deploy the Free Automatic Upgrades that’s a given.

They’ve already invested a lot of resources to “improve” the WvW Ecosystem.

I can only hope that at the minimum…they will Choose to Disable the Free Automatic Upgrades for Enemies on a Player’s Home World.

If they choose to ignore this plea…WvW will turn into a Bully Wonderland…where I predict the following general trends will happen.

1) Less WvW noobs get motivated to play for Under Dog Worlds.
2) More WvW veterans move to Bully Worlds that Win.

3) Players that can’t afford to move to a Bully World…give up & play PvE…or quit Guild Wars 2 altogether.

4) Small Group of Elite WvW servers will emerge & constantly Dominate the WvW game.

Keep in mind some Home World’s population do not like to WvW.

Trying to nurture WvW players from these populations can be extremely difficult.

Diku

p.s.
I’ve earned tons of badges, but I’d be cautious on spending them. It took me a long time & a lot of effort to get…so I hope ANet can come up with something that will reward me appropriately.

p.p.s.
I Do Support Free Automatic Upgrades for a Player on a Player’s Home map.

I Do Not Support Free Automatic Upgrades for an Enemy on a Player’s Home map.

Dawdler.8521:

Diku.2546:

@Dawdler

I think most WvW Veterns (Rank 1000+) will agree to the following:

1) Like seeing the Home World map all painted in favor for the Home Team.

2) Like the camaraderie of sharing victories with other Home World citizens.

3) Earning useful WvW based attributes (Applied Fortitude & Strength) that shows your commitment to WvW.

I don’t particularly like PvP, but will do it for the above reasons.

It’s great that the work to upgrade keeps are done Automatically & Free, but the Developers need to careful not to implement a system that will negatively impact the WvW dynamics…which I feel this upcoming Automatic & Free Upgrades to ALL objectives will do.

I agree with you…they may destroy the things that makes WvW great if they are not careful.

Diku

Why do you even bring up WvW ranks?

WvW veterans would agree to the fact that there was a time when there where no ranks and there where no masteries. Applied fortitude and strength didnt exist and the game wasnt worse off for that. In fact, WvW worked just fine even before the masteries. Hell, siege didnt do insane damage due to the +lolwtfpercentage increase to damage that masteries caused so I would even argue that the game was better when there where no WvW ranks!

I dont disagree with you on the fact that Anet should be more careful with implementations and take them by players first, testing fully so we dont have another situation like with… uhm… masteries and WvW ranks… that caused severe player/siege imbalance.

@Dawdler

I have to disagree with you about Ranks.

The WvW abilities can only be used in the WvW Universe.

Ranks are a visible way to show your “Jedi Knight” level…short of taking out your WvW Light Saber.

I wished that Masteries were un-locked by your WvW Rank…instead of by letting players choose.

Luke Skywalker didn’t become a Jedi Knight overnight.

It took Luke a long time to develop his Jedi Knight powers…Yoda was a Jedi Knight Master for a reason.

WvW should have used Ranks in this fashion.

As it stands…WvW players get less rewards for playing WvW than does a PvE player doing PvE based things.

All noobs can get Jedi Knight powers (Applied Fortitude & Strength) if that’s all they purchase with their skill points…

Of course noobs will ignore the other skills that would help Supply & Seige Objectives in WvW. Leave that to the other WvW veterans to do right?

I wouldn’t consider Masteries as an causing imbalance…

It’s the WvW noobs choice to do so…but why blame them? The system allows them to.

The Masteries should be un-locked based on your WvW Rank.

Supply Master & Flame Ram ===> WvW Noobs Rank 100

Applied Fortitude & Strength ===> WvW Veterans Rank 1000+

Diku

p.s.
There is no WvW Light Saber to show off…

So what do WvW Veterans have that reward them for playing over a PvE Player?

Mastery skills make it worth while in my opinion…if you continue to play WvW…long & hard…by earning those Ranks.

@WvW Community

Once the hoopla over the new map content & mechanics wears out…what will remain?

What tactics will be used by new WvW players to win?

WvW will be waged on 4 Tri-Colored Maps…based on the preview recently published.

Upgrades will be Automatic & Free on all Maps.

Home BL gives an edge to Home Defenders of course.

We’re supposed to fight each other equally on all maps…so there shouldn’t be any map that gets dominated by one world.

The maps are engineered so that we should be in perpetual battle. That’s how balance will happen.

WvW will be a huge success.

Pop <—- Bubble Busted

Bully Worlds Dominate…that’s what makes WvW fun.

Holding lots of territory and earning lots of points is fun!

How do you get to Dominate other Worlds?

Simple…capture your Enemie’s Home World positions & Upgrade.

Bully Worlds maintain their Home World map by making their Enemies feed off each other’s territory for scraps…that’s the best case scenario that makes maintaining your Domination easy.

Yes…Bully Worlds have a huge interest in keeping their Enemies divided.

Under Dog Worlds can look forward to weekly beat down until Home World Domination occurs.

Automatic & Free Upgrades of Enemy positions on your Home World Map will only encourage Domination.

Cheers!
Diku

p.s.
Just a reminder…all Tiers have an Under Dog World…it’s the 3rd rank World of that Tier. Trying to nuture a WvW community dries up when your Home World is constantly dominated. Anybody else feel the same?

@WvW Community

Please keep this thread alive by Voting here.

ANet Developers…please make one change to the planned WvW Maps for HoT.

Disable Automatic & Free Upgrades to Enemy positions on a Player’s Home Borderland.

The plan for Automatic & Free Upgrades on the New WvW Maps will happen & in most cases are a positive change.

The Removal of Applied Fortitude & Stength will happen. I’ve already posted my suggestion in this thread & can only hope to be heard.

What is more important for WvW Players to shout disproval about is the Automatic & Free Upgrades to Enemy Positions on a Player’s Home Borderland. Allowing this to be implemented will have a long term negative impact that will erode Under Dog WvW Communities.

We’re already approaching a WvW wasteland with the current infrastructure. The Developers intention to bolster the WvW Ecosystem with Automatic & Free Upgrades has good intentions, but will backfire if they also implement it for Enemies in a Player’s Home Borderland.

We need to keep our request as simple as possible in the hopes it will be answered.

As a PUG Commander & Solo camp Capper for an Under Dog World…who fights daily in WvW to make a difference…don’t take away my reason to play WvW.

Please join me & Vote to Support that the Developers Disable Automatic & Free Upgrades to Enemy positions on a Player’s Home Borderland.

Don’t let this thread die…please stand with me in supporting this simple request.

Diku

When EotM was first released it was actually very fun to fight on, but alas and alack it quickly became dominated by KTrainers, and lost its appeal as a map to do zergbusting on.

It’s still kind of fun to sometimes go in and unwind together as a guild, but you quickly get bashed by your own colormates for derailing the train so……..

I do agree that it seems auto-upgrades on an enemy BL are odd, but it might just be something they put in because they didn’t want to write in differences for whatever reason.

Persoanlly I’d rather see the new maps be city maps like Divinity’s Reach where there are no keeps EXCEPT the central area, and capturing the neighborhoods gave you your PPT. Have The Upper City be “home”, Plaza of Grenth and Plaza of Dwayna be the starter zones for off-color servers and go from there. Would make some amazing choke points and places for great ambushes etc.

I dont see how world domination would be bad! Already happening due some server being more active in some timezones than others, players stacked in top server made lower servers a harder place to figh, some are in positions to blob lowers and get blobed if they increase rank,.

@Diku, i dont think Anet can guess the result of wath they are doing, no one can actually, and for sure what is now can be changed in future, i kinda agree with you i think i can see your point, if a player returns and bl gets flipped even in new desert map becouse your server didnt had players online on wvw (reason i despite the actual wvw system, altough is what i like best in gw2), and the atacking server abandons your lost bl’s it will start upgrading, and will be harder to take it back, but if the atacker really want your bl they need to stay and upgrade it.
Well no matter off, the lower pop/coverage server is screwd in both ways, or towers upgrades alone w/o any one protecting and even 1 defender can cap it(im using imagination here ) or atacking server needs to stay run updates once in a while and if he cough 1 or few players trying to doing the ninja path they will get blobbed.
So it needs to be tested and observed first.

Kaiser.9873:

(…)

Persoanlly I’d rather see the new maps be city maps like Divinity’s Reach where there are no keeps EXCEPT the central area, and capturing the neighborhoods gave you your PPT. Have The Upper City be “home”, Plaza of Grenth and Plaza of Dwayna be the starter zones for off-color servers and go from there. Would make some amazing choke points and places for great ambushes etc.

That would be a clue for the megaserver be super efective and fun in exchange of the WvW since map were already done… the only problem would be would end like eve biggest alliance domination lol, the sad thing is that player stacking in one server leads to a similiar situation.

Recent screen capture of our WvW Home BL.

This is before the proposed Automatic & Free Upgrades of Enemy Positions on a Player’s Home Map.

I had to blank out the Home World Map names for the shame. As a Veteran WvW…I failed to recapture things…even after 4 hours of Solo Capping our camps.

Bully Enemy World simply recaptured everything faster than its 2 Enemies could capture.

Be very afraid of the new Automatic & Free Upgrades for your Enemy in your Home BL.

Under Dog WvW communities will become extinct if ANet does nothing to create a Preserve.

Diku

p.s.
Anybody else a MegZone 23 fan?

WvW should have an Eve Mode when all failsafes are overwhelmed by your Enemy.

Hehehe…WvW

A.D.A.M Mode vs. E.V.E Mode

I do not think this suggestion of disabling the auto updates would make much of an impact. A better suggestion would be to allow home world upgrades to progress slightly faster (shorter cooldown) or dolyaks reduce the time to each tier by a larger amount. In essence, home world owned map locations would upgrade ever so slightly faster than enemy owned locations in your home world.

To be honest though, the home world already has an advantage by map design, at least in the Alpine maps anyway. They get a waypoint very close to one of the keeps, and do not have to run so far to get to the other two. It is easier for home world players to capture the keeps, due to distance, than the enemy worlds. How this advantage works out on the new HoT map I do not know, but I imagine they will want to keep this map layout advantage. Therefore, I do not see them adding another advantage in the form of easier upgrades on home world maps.

Hmm…HoT just released…we’re going to find out how auto-upgrades affect the WvW Community.

chuckles

As it turns out…it’s not just the Home World being dominated…it’s all Borderlands.

Well we’re all playing WvW wrong. We need to better organize & get bigger groups to play. It’s on us boys & girls to do this right?

Also, after 3 months…things should…should get back to normal. We just have to wait till everybody finishes playing the new PvE content.

The WvW Communities are really strong & can handle this. We’ve done it for 3 years…let’s do it for another 3 years.

Joking…hope ANet considers some form of Auto-Upgrade Despawn with a Decay Timer as a Counter-Weight to the Auto-Upgrade…if these objectives are not manned by somebody.

Well the thing here is a lot of the strategy goes out the window.

“We gotta target their t3 tower; it’ll break their upgrades and waste their resources and time! And hold it for a tick! Then we can use this location to lay siege to their keep! O”

“Which one? All of them are T3!”

I think when things come too easily, they start to slowly lose meaning. I certainly don’t oppose auto upgrades entirely because you should be rewarded for holdings things for a long time. It’s just that the definition of long time doesn’t seem very long. The way it happens so fast and killing dolyaks seems to only slow it a bit just makes the whole process feel very tedious.

IMO, an issue of tuning.

I love the new fortified gate, I like the fortified wall, but you have to earn it… This mean taking care of the keep, upgrading stuff with human intervention, running doly, needing supply for the upgrade ,etc…
Fortified gate must come with a cost… It’s a very good thing to avoid ennemy zerg crushing keep in 3min, but this should not be for free without any human intervention.

It’s the lack of players that encourages borderlands domination, not the autoupgrade.

Let’s get ready to Stack Serverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Diku.2546:

Upgrades are Automatic & Free ===> Player’s Home World

Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold ===> Eternal Battlegrounds

Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold ===> Player’s Enemy Home Worlds

Player’s Home World has a chance to rebuild after being wiped, but Enemy can still take it & build on it.

Reasoning still remains:

1) Encourage Home World Defense.
2) Encourage Eternal Battles World Offense.
3) Discourage Home World Domination by Enemies & Preserve Home World Community

ANet…would you consider modifying how Auto-Upgrades are currently implemented in HoT based on the above?

Your truly,
Diku

ArchonWing.9480:

Well the thing here is a lot of the strategy goes out the window.

“We gotta target their t3 tower; it’ll break their upgrades and waste their resources and time! And hold it for a tick! Then we can use this location to lay siege to their keep! O”

“Which one? All of them are T3!”

I think when things come too easily, they start to slowly lose meaning. I certainly don’t oppose auto upgrades entirely because you should be rewarded for holdings things for a long time. It’s just that the definition of long time doesn’t seem very long. The way it happens so fast and killing dolyaks seems to only slow it a bit just makes the whole process feel very tedious.

IMO, an issue of tuning.

Agree with this.

If the AutoUpgrade timer was much longer, those Dolyak’s start looking mighty tempting. If the time was long enough that it could take day(s) to get to full T3, then it would be important for players to defend to ever see it upgraded.

Don’t know how long that timer should be though. Just don’t set it to a week long, so we “maybe” get to see a T3 tower at end of week. :p

I don’t like the idea of auto-upgrades at all. As long as there are auto upgrades on the home borderlands, the map will be deserted. The problem is that there is nothing to do on the borderlands after all of the objectives have been captured.

I think all upgrades need to be triggered by players. Instead of just having the new T1/T2/T3 upgrades for objectives, we need all of the upgrade options we had available prior to HoT. I typically play during periods of low activity and upgrades kept me busy. Too busy in fact. It was difficult to trigger upgrades and respond to all of the roamers attacking our towers and camps, but this made the game mode fun.

I also don’t agree with adding gold costs back into this game. It was very frustrating to try to help my server during off hours and having to pay gold to play the game properly. I could easily spend 4 gold in an hour and 10+ gold if I had more play time. I would actually rather see more rewards for defenders, like events for triggering upgrades or repairing walls/cannons/mortars. These events can also help teach new players how to play the game.

Dancing Face.4695:

It’s the lack of players that encourages borderlands domination, not the autoupgrade.

While that is true it is hard to tell, because auto upgrades means players dont need to care much to upgrade and player will not apear, since it will eventually upgrade, even if u own or dont own camps upgrades will happen just will need more time, that also creates the lack of players.
The auto upgrade system killed the scout playing, when players were upgrading stuff that is for sure, but fixed siege trolling in this situation we need to support Anet and find better ways to make both option co-exist.

I do think server merging would not destroy comunities but make them bigger….. just a tough.

@joneirikb

I agree with you…they should make the Auto Upgrade timer longer. I’d work on my Yak slapper for sure.

@Dagger

I disagree with you about implementing manual & free upgrades for everything.

Manual Upgrades Protecting your Home Server Borderland should be FREE.

Manual Upgrades Expanding into Enemy Borderlands or EB should Cost Gold.

The Cost of Upgrades in Enemy Bordrlands or EB should be considered an INVESTMENT that give Players reasons behind protecting it.

@Aeolus

I have to disagree with you about the server merge. In my opinion…given the current base map mechanic…ANet would probably need to merge all servers into 6 worlds.

We would ened up with 3 Worlds for NA & 3 Worlds for EU. Then the stale Match-Ups would occur again. Not a long term solution.

I’m actually hoping they bring back the Old Alpine map.

The New Desert map seem to need a larger critical mass of player before the fun starts.

I’d suggest that

1) ANet bring back the Old Alpine map
2) Get WvW population to return to playing WvW & to stabalize
3) Introduce a New Base Map Mechanic & Reboot the Population
4) Get WvW population to stabalize around this new change
5) Allow population to increase
6) Re-Introduce the New Desert Map when there is a very large critical mass of players.

I changed my stance on the Auto-Upgrade for Home Borderland.

It should be Manual, but Free.

Diku.2546:

@joneirikb

I agree with you…they should make the Auto Upgrade timer longer. I’d work on my Yak slapper for sure.

---

@Dagger

I disagree with you about implementing manual & free upgrades for everything.

Manual Upgrades Protecting your Home Server Borderland should be FREE.

Manual Upgrades Expanding into Enemy Borderlands or EB should Cost Gold.

The Cost of Upgrades in Enemy Bordrlands or EB should be considered an INVESTMENT that give Players reasons behind protecting it.

---

@Aeolus

I have to disagree with you about the server merge. In my opinion…given the current base map mechanic…ANet would probably need to merge all servers into 6 worlds.

We would ened up with 3 Worlds for NA & 3 Worlds for EU. Then the stale Match-Ups would occur again. Not a long term solution.

I’m actually hoping they bring back the Old Alpine map.

The New Desert map seem to need a larger critical mass of player before the fun starts.

I’d suggest that

1) ANet bring back the Old Alpine map
2) Get WvW population to return to playing WvW & to stabalize
3) Introduce a New Base Map Mechanic & Reboot the Population
4) Get WvW population to stabalize around this new change
5) Allow population to increase
6) Re-Introduce the New Desert Map when there is a very large critical mass of players.

I know the 3 server system wont work with the actual WvW but is the WvW gamemode system that i believe that is faulty and creating this issues, no matter what Anet changes is a 24/7 redundancy or capping stuff leave alone for recap, even the old BL was this.
What we really need is a consistent game design that can envolve not something that can be copied to make it feel diferent but it will end on the same.
I dont see Anet avoiding this path, they could even start to make the Mist continent and adding more maps and castles by time to time for population adjustment, instead of redundancy we could have more guild fights for objectives because each objective would be a diferent enchancement/mechanic for the guild, in a world map instead of having a huge 3xBL and eb, also instead of slpiting phisical resources to servers would be for 3 servers but with more smaller maps.
Even smaller guilds could deffend castles and be rewarded with a defense event >_>, we could have guilds optimized for siege, others for open field, and others for defense.

i guess im divaging to much ._. but one can dream…..

@Aeolus

Totally agree with you.

The epiphany mentioned here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Auto-Upgrades-Encourage-Home-World-Domination/page/2#post5098467

Resulted with the Creation of this thread to Change the Base Map Mechanic:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Reboot-the-Base-Map-Mechanic-Population/first#post5710744

Suggestion to developers concerning the return of the Old Alpine Borderland to WvW:

Player’s Home World ===> Upgrades are Automatic & Free for Home Team

Eternal Battlegrounds ===> Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold for everyone

Player’s Enemy’s Home Worlds ===> Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold for Invaders

Player’s Home World allowed to rebuild after being wiped with minimum effort, but Enemy forces can still conquer & upgrade with cost.

Reasoning still remains:

1) Encourage Home World Defense.

2) Encourage Eternal Battles World Offense.

3) Discourage Home World Domination by Enemies & Preserve Home World Community.

Anet don’t want that the home team hold is map….
Just look at the WP and you will see that Anet want us to only hold our 1/3 on each map…

What I’d like to see is everything you own on your home map gives a bump to supply on eb. And yes I like auto upgrades because way too many can’t be bothered with it and its not fair for only a few to keep getting stuck shouldering it.

Just join a good server with a good community guild who support scout…
There is no reason that bad server without any organisation can have free and auto upgrade…
The auto upgrade system is just another eotm / casual style… Make the game easier, just join, follow the blue tag to KT and all will be fine. We have tons of mechanics and NPC who do the difficult job for you.

Oh and because ANET want to sell some gems, we remove all the upgrade from your guild, and if you want it back just loose hours of boring pve farm, or take your credit card…

@Sich

imho…

Servers that constantly get wiped due to being “poorly” organized should be granted sanctuary with Automatic & Free Upgrades.

If you don’t protect the Home World that is constantly wiped…defenders give up hope & stop playing.

This way…the few defenders remaining…at least stand a chance to rebuild in the face of overwhelming odds & a against a constant and never ending onslaught of “highly” organized invaders.

Servers that are successful & can expand to conquer their enemy Home Worlds should be allowed to upgrade, but the Upgrades need to be done Manually & Cost Gold to give meaning behind their efforts…and to provide a mechanism that allows for their expansions to slow down or to collapse…if no effort is put to keep the expansion moving forward.

Player’s Home World ===> Upgrades are Automatic & Free for Home Team

Eternal Battlegrounds ===> Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold for everyone

Player’s Enemy Home Worlds ===> Upgrades are Manual & Cost Gold as an Invader