Guild Wars 2

Hi there!
This is a post filled with constructive criticism, my intention is to let the devs know that there is something wrong with the current upgrade system post HoT.

First of all I am an avid WvW player, have ~1000 hours of exp in just wvw and also Command quite often so I am not just talking out of my kitten here. For those of you who dont know, the current upgrade system in wvw is full auto. Once you get an objective it starts upgrading, and after a certain time it reaches tier1,2 and finnally 3. If a friendly dolly reaches the objective it substracts 5 minutes from the upgrade timer.

Now this system may seem nice on paper, it favors the server with the stronger night crew since they just karmatrain everything once everyone else went to bed.
And most of them dont even care about upgrading these things, they just leave, log off and do whatever. But since there is nobody to recap these objectives they just upgrade during the night.

When the morning crew wakes up they find themselves against fortified gates and walls. Most people just wont bother opening these since it takes too long if you dont have more than 5-10 people with you and they just log off or do PVE stuff instead.

And if the enemy have even 1-2 people in these keeps or towers they can hold it almost indefinitely against such a small force.
Consequently this kills wvw for people who get online later as well since this just destroys the morale of the server.
Morale is a real thing and a lot of things affect it: the server community, the quality of online commanders(if any), and of course the enemy numbers.

My solution: Introduce a human element to upgrading. It is not a big change, everything would work the way it works now except that when the objective upgrade timer reaches 0:00 it does not upgrade to the next tier by itself but a player has to go to the upgrade guy and press an “upgrade” button. Then the objective upgrades to the next tier and the upgrade timer starts again.

This system would still allow stronger servers to upgrade stuff overnight if they really want to, but if they just log off and do nothing its not unfair against the smaller server who could just retake their “paper”(not upgraded) stuff easier. This would get more people into WvW as well and consequently help more and better fights going.

Thats it.! Sorry it was such a long post, please tell me what you think.

TLDR: The current upgrades system makes the stronger servers stronger and the smaller server even weaker. Add a human element to the upgrade mix to balance things out!

I love the auto-upgrades, but making a button that has to be pressed seems like a fair way to keep them from being too easymode.

and please, make that the doly are required and not optionnal….
At least you can take back the supply camp or kill the doly to stop the upgrade…

Sich.7103:

and please, make that the doly are required and not optionnal….
At least you can take back the supply camp or kill the doly to stop the upgrade…

IMO the most acceptable compromise between the new and the old system. Hell they could even make dollys 100% invoulnerable while escorting instead of “only” 90%.

love the post. when i read the changes to wvw about the auto upgrades i knew right away there would be a run away effect if stuff wasn’t capped back soon enough. Having someone click upgrade i believe is the perfect solution. no reason why something should get auto upgraded if the server that has it doesn’t bother to occupy it and defend.

The OPs idea is fine.

In addition, the upgrade should require dolyaks not have a timer and should take at least 50% longer. Upgrading walls/doors and cannons/mortars at the same time is too good. Ideally make them separate steps effectively doubling the time or at least increase the timer 50%+.

While you’re at it, give us the “Hills” and “Bay” waypoints back too, its ok if the keeps have to upgrade for a while before they become active.

I’ve only played a little the last few days in EB but i thought some of the upgrades seemed to go a bit too pacey, specially SM, that might need a tweak.

I really like your upgrade idea tho, a required player intervention would stop the runaway auto-upgrade issue. This isnt good for any of the servers in the MU, the weaker get demoralised trying to retake everything thats T3 so they don’t bother and the stronger gets no fights leading to mass boredom

Attacking paper keeps and towers was way too easy in the past. You could be killing the lord before the other server even realized it was under attack (unless you insist that every walled objective in the game should have a human scout standing by doing nothing 80% of the time so that they can report when it comes under attack?).

Attacking upgraded forts gives time for the other server to respond, which means bigger fights in the field, which is what I’ve seen other people say they wanted out of these changes…

There is less fight, because people don’t care about the keep, no wp, no human needed to upgrade and map or keep too big. Then if something is contested if it’s not at prime time with plenty of people, most of the people will just ignore the attack, and go elsewhere. At least when you take your stuff back there is something to do… Because with all those auto upgrade stuff there is just nothing to do except KT during off peak time.

And you speak about paper keep, but it’s the same actually. A big zerg go through paper keep very fast. You can make T3 keep with people managing upgrade…

@Xernth : yep WP should only be available at T3.

Sounds good that some kinda of people action is needed – to make you care about the structures (except to go an harvest in there – was this change really needed?) It would be nice if the dollies now did something toward the upgrades, atm you can have a tower and no camps and it still goes ahead. Plus they are not as cute as the old dollies.

I would like the old upgrade system.. just without the need for players to pay silver/gold

Its much harder to care about loosing a T3 when its just happened even without you being there

I think the auto upgrades are OK, but should take at least twice as long and they should incentivese the dolyaks.

Dondarrion.9530:

My solution: Introduce a human element to upgrading. It is not a big change, everything would work the way it works now except that when the objective upgrade timer reaches 0:00 it does not upgrade to the next tier by itself but a player has to go to the upgrade guy and press an “upgrade” button. Then the objective upgrades to the next tier and the upgrade timer starts again.

The current upgrades system makes the stronger servers stronger and the smaller server even weaker. Add a human element to the upgrade mix to balance things out!

I agree with this suggestion. Require human player to talk with an NPC to start the next stage of upgrades would indeed balance things a bit, but of course doesn’t fully solve the off-time capping problem.

The auto pilot on upgrades is really bad. While I can solo a fully upgraded camp (and use to solo towers often), now there is extremely little things for most players to do as the entire map often has just 1-3 players on your side. This leads to boredom and logging out or going for other game modes. WvWvW is indeed dead at its current form. Bringing back the old Alpine borderland + no auto upgrades would solve a lot problems as it was so much smaller and running from a camp to an enemy held tower was much smaller distance. Before the HoT expansion many enemy held towers + camps were not fully upgraded, thus they were much more realistic goals for a small team to flip.

Now towers and keeps are made too hard to capture by a small force, especially if they are fully upgraded have even all the three shrine powers activated. Probably some very skilled pair of players using dedicated builds can still do that, but it is indeed too hard for most. I have seen enemy team of 5 players trying to take down our keep lord. Even after 5 minutes the lord health was still at 99%. 5 average players should be able to take down a lord faster than 1% per 5 mins.

I don’t know… I like the auto-upgrades personally. I hated baby-sitting a tower for example and having some dolt come in and kick off second worker when you’re trying to get the next upgrade going. It keeps the stupid from being able to publicly express themselves.

VOLKON.1290:

I don’t know… I like the auto-upgrades personally. I hated baby-sitting a tower for example and having some dolt come in and kick off second worker when you’re trying to get the next upgrade going. It keeps the stupid from being able to publicly express themselves.

It’s not because you hate “baby sitting” tower that no one like this… And the auto upgrade just killed the game style for many scouts…

Sich.7103:

VOLKON.1290:

I don’t know… I like the auto-upgrades personally. I hated baby-sitting a tower for example and having some dolt come in and kick off second worker when you’re trying to get the next upgrade going. It keeps the stupid from being able to publicly express themselves.

It’s not because you hate “baby sitting” tower that no one like this… And the auto upgrade just killed the game style for many scouts…

If you’re talking about scouts in the baby-sitting sense that I was (watching the tower, keeping upgrades rolling, reporting incoming, keeping siege up, etc) then I’d have to disagree. All that removed was having to toss coins at the quartermaster and hope someone else didn’t screw things up. If you’re talking about offensive scouting, going and peeking at a tower to see where the upgrades are… um… ok, I have a difficult time seeing how that’s a great loss, but that could only be because I’ve never had that role.

VOLKON.1290:

All that removed was having to toss coins at the quartermaster and hope someone else didn’t screw things up.

No, thats not all it removed. It removed the need to be in the tower as well. It removed all association to the actual act of upgrading. Which is what is so bad. I dont think anyone will miss dumping gold in the upgrades, but they will miss upgrading.

Dawdler.8521:

VOLKON.1290:

All that removed was having to toss coins at the quartermaster and hope someone else didn’t screw things up.

No, thats not all it removed. It removed the need to be in the tower as well. It removed all association to the actual act of upgrading. Which is what is so bad. I dont think anyone will miss dumping gold in the upgrades, but they will miss upgrading.

I disagree that you don’t need to be in a tower if you want to hold it. You still need eyes present, you still need to build and maintain the siege. There’s more to defense than upgrades (but they help).

yeah, but I didn’t find any server who actually defend something…..
Not mine, and not the other who don’t even try to defend stuff when I take it back…
No one will loose time to defend useless tower with automatic upgrade.
And ppt ? Same for T0 and T3…

I tend to agree with this, the upgrades should be slowed a bit, perhaps more reliant on dolyaks too.

A delay in the opening of the waypoints would be another good option, perhaps pushing them back a bit to 1st tier?

Sich.7103:

and please, make that the doly are required and not optionnal….
At least you can take back the supply camp or kill the doly to stop the upgrade…

This. This is the best solution IMO. Making yaks optional for upgrades really diminishes their strategic value.

All the names I see posting in this thread are long-time WvWers/scouts; those that play 8 hours plus per day, seven days a week, for years.

If any thread got some attention and love it should be this one.

Dondarrion.9530:

My solution: Introduce a human element to upgrading. It is not a big change, everything would work the way it works now except that when the objective upgrade timer reaches 0:00 it does not upgrade to the next tier by itself but a player has to go to the upgrade guy and press an “upgrade” button. Then the objective upgrades to the next tier and the upgrade timer starts again.

Agree, can also be a button on the upgrade interface (similar on guild hall upgrades), I don’t mind if someone on the other side of the map do it, but it’s important it is a player and not an automation.

During stress test people proposed also to introduce dolly to the mix, so basically a time limit + a dolly count.

Say a keep requires 30 minutes to get tier 1? Let’s add 6 or 8 dollies to the mix. That will introduce something to do for roamers, as starving a structure was part of the gameplay and a really engaging activity for solo roamers on enemy territory.

So people are upset that theres not 1 dedicated person running clicking buttons?

Last I checked, you still need to hold objectives for points. And scouts need to point out that theres X players at Y’s location to help prevent that.

yeah, scouting is only about clicking buttons…. Seriously ?
Did you play the new map actually ? If they are not empty 3/4 of the time, now there is just no one to take care or to defend the structures…. Because of this auto upgrade, because of this free upgrade… And because the structure don’t give any tactical advantage !
Holding briar to avoid treb against bay… Holding north tower to avoid treb against garri… Holding supply camp to provide supply to the structures to hold them much longer… Holding keep to have WP and give a huge advantage to your team.

If structures have no value no one will care to defend and now it’s only a stupid karma train on the map. Yesterday at prime time, we have take / loose both side keep, on multiple BL map. We don’t defend it yes, but same for the other team ! You can take 3 tower / 2 keep without any fight !

That is because of the new game mechanics, and it’s not only about clicking buttons…

And there is not only prime time, prime time is 3H / days…. Don’t kill all the off peak time because some fight guild don’t want to clic buttons…

I play on T1.

My maps are never empty. Scores are a pretty big deal. People on T1 actually play and defend because they enjoy it instead of crying about how there isnt enough “reward.” Stuff is defended so they can keep the scores flowing. I can actually roam and not get zerged down in 10 seconds because the enemy can run from 1 side of the map to the other in less than a minute.

WvW for me now is almost on par with old Daoc and current ESO RvR, where losing a fight actually mattered somewhat as it meant you had to run back, giving the enemy time to do stuff.

Oh, and in T1. WP’s didn’t get built that often the enemy keeps (ones closest to their spawns), because of the rate of which objectives got flipped. They maybe got build during off hours. Thats about it. Argument nullified.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

I play on T1.
[…]
Oh, and in T1 […]

. Thats about it. Argument nullified.

You do realise there are other tiers? And players enjoying fighting in those tiers?

Auto upgrading solves some pretty substantial problems from the former system including trolls and taxing players trying to improve infrastructure.

The problem to me seems to be that keeps/towers don’t need supply to upgrade. I recommend having yaks deliver upgrade points used to upgrade keeps. If the yaks stop, the upgrades stop. At least then there would be a reason to defend/flip camps and escort yaks aside from wxp.

Dawntree.7246:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

I play on T1.
[…]
Oh, and in T1 […]

. Thats about it. Argument nullified.

You do realise there are other tiers? And players enjoying fighting in those tiers?

Not really a map problem then is it? Seems like a population problem. You should be asking for anet to merge tiers.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Dawntree.7246:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

I play on T1.
[…]
Oh, and in T1 […]

. Thats about it. Argument nullified.

You do realise there are other tiers? And players enjoying fighting in those tiers?

Not really a map problem then is it? Seems like a population problem. You should be asking for anet to merge tiers.

Do you bother reading peoples posts before white knighting? Because of the map design there is no strategic advantage to taking objectives. You can’t treb keeps from the towers, you can’t upgrade keeps to get WP’s, you can’t even take camps to stop upgrades from going through.

Great they made defending easier, bully for them. There is no longer an incentive to try to break the defense, people just move on to another objective and keep the K-train moving.

I don’t mind the auto upgrade of the tower. To increase the strategic gameplay of WvW, the dolyak should be required for the upgrade, yes. But I must say when I was defending a tower the other day, even without paying for the upgrades, my group and I ran out of supplies repairing the gate/walls while building artillery to counter the enemy swarm. At that moment, every supply counts, and we had to run out and capture the camp to bring some more supplies in to keep on surviving. So I really don’t mind the auto upgrade.

If I am not wrong, if the tower doesn’t get attacked for an hour or so, it gets fully upgraded no? I thought that was the case, which is why I tend to run around and ping door while hunting for fight. Some time even take the tower for myself =)

However, you guys made a great point that I didn’t realize but agree with. Thinking about it now (since I haven’t tried it recently due to guildies roaming in Maguuma), you can’t treb keeps from tower. That really is upsetting…. Is treb now useless in WvW?? I can’t see any other use of its slow, yet far range, usage if it isn’t hidden inside of a tower. In addition to that, how do you all plan to treb “New Bay” when it is underground?

I fully agree with the OP. If people aren’t even taking care of that objective by not even at least pressing a button then they don’t deserve the upgrade.
But once the button is pushed it should trigger the effect in 5minutes, otherwise you could let the enemies bring the reinforced wall to 5% and then hit that button and bring it to fortified at 100% health which is not nice.

Sich.7103:

VOLKON.1290:

I don’t know… I like the auto-upgrades personally. I hated baby-sitting a tower for example and having some dolt come in and kick off second worker when you’re trying to get the next upgrade going. It keeps the stupid from being able to publicly express themselves.

It’s not because you hate “baby sitting” tower that no one like this… And the auto upgrade just killed the game style for many scouts…

Scouting is still potentially valuable its just they wont have to spend their own gold to upgrade now

Auto upgrades are the least of the problems with the new map and can be easily tweaked. The auto upgrades has the benefit of eliminating upgrade trolls and reducing PvDoor.

A few have argued that auto upgrades help the larger/overnight server, yet the auto upgrades can help the defenders, as they are able to defend their structures as opposed to their whole BL get flipped in minutes by a karma train. Some in this thread want auto upgrades eliminated and also want to add waypoints in the side keeps which would also assist the larger server.

One problem with the auto-upgrades is that they make supply camps largely meaningless. The upgrades should be perhaps made more dependent upon yaks.

The idea that upgrades should be dependent upon one player showing up and ordering it is busy work for no real benefit.

There’s an event you can do to blow up the doors, if no ones around should be easy enough to do.

Great idea OP about the human element to start next upgrade, even if its just to tap a npc ot get it going. Would bring back some incentives to roam again.

+100