Guild Wars 2

At least I didn’t get any counter arguments on how skillful a zerg is. Trust me, if they can make SPvP anything more than a boring merry-go-round I’ll be happy to go there. Until then I’ll be terrorizing you when you get left behind from your zergs.

I will say one thing, a zerg is a nice way to level. Just spam buttons get XP/karma. It’s easymode to 80. I do use them for that.

Vena.8436:

Samhayn.2385:

I understand this and I also think its a bad idea that’s why I’m giving suggestions.

Stiv.1820:

Allowing zergs to tag people for full XP is a terrible design decision that will make this entire system meaningless.

And yet, no one bothers to address “what is a zerg”.

Are 30 well trained, fluid guild members all working in tandem a zerg? Or are they an army? How bout 50 of them? Is that a zerg yet? Is 30 vs. 30 GvG a ZvZ?

Might as well just go with the sandpile paradox in reverse:

• Are X guild members a zerg or are they a well coordinated?
  +1 to infinity where X is <1 than your definition of how many #s it takes to make a zerg a zerg.

Who would and how does one draw the line on “X is too many teammates, you’re a zerg”. I don’t consider the likes of my servers big, organized guilds running in groups (20, 30, even some 40+) zergs, I consider them a guild and a team. Yet, because we’re to assign some arbitrary distinction of “the zerg”… they suddenly aren’t going to be rewarded as if they were a team. How is such a thing fair? Why do two X0 vs X0 guilds going at it head to head suddenly being rewarded less for their efforts? Did the fight somehow become a lot easier when it was X*10 vs. X*10 people rather than just X vs X?

If you want to break up the zerg, add more incentives for scouting (or, as the sword change did, more punishment for not scouting). However this is a difficult balance because its often times impossible to discern a scout at a keep from an afk at said keep.

I would rather see this game be something we all (wvw community) can enjoy and not the rest stop on people’s way to TESO or CU.
—————————————————————————————————————————————-
edit: Seriously Anet, reconsider this. It’s going to be a big make or break it point vs this game and TES.

Stop this already, you cannot compare a game that exists as bullet points and in a mystical ether called your imagination to a game that actually exists in purchasable media.

Regardless of how “well trained” those 30 players are, 30 players should not be rewarded as highly as a soloer for objectives or kills. Less risk, less reward…….The way ANet is proposing to do this it’s Less risk, same reward (in fact faster rewards because a group of 30 can flip 4 or 5 objectives in the time a small group could spend doing just 1.)

Adaneshade.2409:

Regardless of how “well trained” those 30 players are, 30 players should not be rewarded as highly as a soloer for objectives or kills. Less risk, less reward…….The way ANet is proposing to do this it’s Less risk, same reward (in fact faster rewards because a group of 30 can flip 4 or 5 objectives in the time a small group could spend doing just 1.)

Team game (guilds some would even say)…

…reward soloers more than teams…

…ok.

It really does come down to this. There is no correlation with the world rank of a player and it’s ability to actually fight. That’s the issue.

At this point, I’m starting to wonder why this is even under the PvP subforum. It’s not real PvP for most of the guys playing it. It’s faceroll or PvDoor.

Vena.8436:

Adaneshade.2409:

Regardless of how “well trained” those 30 players are, 30 players should not be rewarded as highly as a soloer for objectives or kills. Less risk, less reward…….The way ANet is proposing to do this it’s Less risk, same reward (in fact faster rewards because a group of 30 can flip 4 or 5 objectives in the time a small group could spend doing just 1.)

Team game (guilds some would even say)…

…reward soloers more than teams…

…ok.

No it doesn’t at all. I’m suggesting that rewards for taking objectives such as Keeps that REQUIRE teamwork on a large scale be MASSIVE compared to those of solo content. I just don’t feel that taking a small objective intended for small groups with a massively oversized group should be very profitable.

Adaneshade.2409:

No it doesn’t at all. I’m suggesting that rewards for taking objectives such as Keeps that REQUIRE teamwork on a large scale be MASSIVE compared to those of solo content. I just don’t feel that taking a small objective intended for small groups with a massively oversized group should be very profitable.

The caveat being that five people can also flip a keep. They only require teamwork if another team is also working to stop you… which was where the discussion you quoted was having its break-down point. Do the two teams vying for the keep get punished/rewarded less for working as a team when it comes to kills or whatever.

I don’t think making things like camps or keeps or kills weigh against “how many people are here” is a good solution. I think adding mechanical objectives that favor roamers would be far better.

Matt Witter.6982:

1. Everyone that helped with the kill will get full credit for the kill.

I think this might be a problem. I mean, I’m no expert on world balance but here’s my take on it…

Right now zerging is pretty bad. It’s normal to have a gang of people take out a single loner, trying to map or whatever. It’s like 15 people standing around a downed individual all finishing them off when the poor guy didn’t even have a chance.

I think this might just make the whole thing worse. Now we’re going to have zergs that hunt people instead of towers and it’s basically just going to be a big gang kitten to get more points.

I don’t really have any ideas for solutions atm, but I imagine someone out there probably does.

I think some of us are just at a disconnect with Anet and their overall progression mentality. We want a DAOC style system that rewards quality over quantity. It’s just not going to happen. All they seem to care about is progression for the sake of progression, even if it’s meaningless.

Just look at sPvP’s progression. The best way to get high rank there is to farm hot-joins all day. It has nothing to do with your actual skill level or how you do in tPvP. It’s simply playing a lot, deathmatching randoms and taking team swap whenver it comes up. Even their side of the game that is supposed to be based around fair skill based play has a borked progression system.

Stiv.1820:

I think some of us are just at a disconnect with Anet and their overall progression mentality. We want a DAOC style system that rewards quality over quantity. It’s just not going to happen. All they seem to care about is progression for the sake of progression, even if it’s meaningless.

Progression is the easiest and cheapest way to pacify the mindless, which of course covers the majority of people doing anything any place any time.

Cactus.2710:

Stiv.1820:

I think some of us are just at a disconnect with Anet and their overall progression mentality. We want a DAOC style system that rewards quality over quantity. It’s just not going to happen. All they seem to care about is progression for the sake of progression, even if it’s meaningless.

Progression is the easiest and cheapest way to pacify the mindless, which of course covers the majority of people doing anything any place any time.

What burns me up is all throughout development this game was hyped as the “player skill matters” PvP mmo….then we get this, development of individual skill is not incentivized AT ALL.
Running ikittenerg is so much faster for progression, both the current titles, and the progression as stated in upcoming patch.

Wow, what a terrible decision.

Ive read a number of times that anet would like to reward more small team play in wvw. Well, this aint the way to do it.

Apparently the pinnacle of pvp was in 2001 and its been downhill from there.

Im gonna have to play p v circle to find a decent fight anymore arnt I.

I just…why…

Oh my god! They’re not splitting Xp up! The world is ending!

Seriously people. Get a grip, unbunch your panties. You lot have no idea what this progression even really entails.

Furthermore, WvW and sPvP are two different game modes that reward based on different skill sets. sPvP focuses on the individual, WvW focuses on group coordination.

Yes, uncoordinated zergballs are full of fail. But ask Red Guard or many other extremely well coordinated outfits how much skill is involved. To me, an extremely well-coordinated GvG engagement is far more impressive than a single player duel, simply because of the fact that you’re combining the efforts of 20 people into a well-oiled machine of death.

It’s like the difference between a solo violinist and an orchestra. Both involve very skilled individuals. One shines because of personal brilliance, the other because of discipline and coordination.

Adaneshade.2409:

What burns me up is all throughout development this game was hyped as the “player skill matters” PvP mmo….then we get this, development of individual skill is not incentivized AT ALL.

Except that was not for this format as you can plainly tell by it being tied to PvE rather than PvP.

Squibbles.8724:

Oh my god! They’re not splitting Xp up! The world is ending!

Seriously people. Get a grip, unbunch your panties. You lot have no idea what this progression even really entails.

Furthermore, WvW and sPvP are two different game modes that reward based on different skill sets. sPvP focuses on the individual, WvW focuses on group coordination.

Yes, uncoordinated zergballs are full of fail. But ask Red Guard or many other extremely well coordinated outfits how much skill is involved. To me, an extremely well-coordinated GvG engagement is far more impressive than a single player duel, simply because of the fact that you’re combining the efforts of 20 people into a well-oiled machine of death.

It’s like the difference between a solo violinist and an orchestra. Both involve very skilled individuals. One shines because of personal brilliance, the other because of discipline and coordination.

You are correct but in you forgot to add that the orchestra players are being paid there salary + everyone else’s salary. Well the soloist only receives there pay.

Let’s take a look at the math.

A player is worth 100 points. You have X number of players. Divide 100 by X and that is the value each player should get.

1 player kills one player: 100/1 = 100 for each player
2 players kill one player: 100/2 = 100 for each player
5 players kill one player: 100/5 = 100 for each player
10 people kill one player: 100/10 = 100 for each player
50 people kill one player: 100/50 = 100 for each player

I’m not sure what you all are complaining about. The math really seems to line up…

Serp.3264:

Let’s take a look at the math.

A player is worth 100 points. You have X number of players. Divide 100 by X and that is the value each player should get.

1 player kills one player: 100/1 = 100 for each player
2 players kill one player: 100/2 = 100 for each player
5 players kill one player: 100/5 = 100 for each player
10 people kill one player: 100/10 = 100 for each player
50 people kill one player: 100/50 = 100 for each player

I’m not sure what you all are complaining about. The math really seems to line up…

Sorry retreading your post it comes off as sarcasm, my bad. But I spent awhile on my phone weighting so I’m not going to delete it.

Using your math.

1v1 player kill total value 100 xp
2v1 player kill tv 200xp
5v1 pk tv 500 xp
10v1 pk tv 1000 xp
50v1 pk tv 5000 xp.

So by that standerd it’s more xp given out total for a 50 v 1 then a 1v1. Yet the amount of effort by the 50 would amount to “I hope I can get my skill off in time to get credit”.

I don’t know what else to say to make people understand that this is not a way to make the game better. This system will enforce hate toward small groups taking objectives before the Zerg gets there, spawn camping, and eventually the losing sides (normally way out manned) will stop showing up to fight because why feed the larger server xp (not to mention transfers to the already winning servers to get the easy xp).

I get that wvw is supposed to be casual friendly but it doesn’t have to be more friendly then it already is. It’s like removing the player caps on dungeons and fractals and telling people " bring as many people as you want and when you win loot for everyone!! ".

Squibbles.8724:

Oh my god! They’re not splitting Xp up! The world is ending!

Seriously people. Get a grip, unbunch your panties. You lot have no idea what this progression even really entails.

Furthermore, WvW and sPvP are two different game modes that reward based on different skill sets. sPvP focuses on the individual, WvW focuses on group coordination.

Yes, uncoordinated zergballs are full of fail. But ask Red Guard or many other extremely well coordinated outfits how much skill is involved. To me, an extremely well-coordinated GvG engagement is far more impressive than a single player duel, simply because of the fact that you’re combining the efforts of 20 people into a well-oiled machine of death.

It’s like the difference between a solo violinist and an orchestra. Both involve very skilled individuals. One shines because of personal brilliance, the other because of discipline and coordination.

Actually its like an orchestra that plays so kittening loud it doessent matter what any one person does.

Analogy doessent make sense? Neither does this system

So much crying about ‘zerg’ in this thread. What do you expect in a massive-scale RvR?

kuora.5402:

So much crying about ‘zerg’ in this thread. What do you expect in a massive-scale RvR?

You can’t call it RvR … because the game that has RvR knew better than to award players in this manner.

DAoC gave equal reward between group members, but split reward between groups based on how much each group contributed to the kill.

Matt Witter.6982:

We will have much more info on World Ranks very soon! In the mean time:

1. Everyone that helped with the kill will get full credit for the kill.
2. NPC’s are not worth World Experience
3. I can’t give all the goods away just yet!
4. Yes.

If #1 makes it live, this whole patch is a flop.

Matt Witter.6982:

We will have much more info on World Ranks very soon!

By saying “very soon!” you probably mean some time next week or so.

Emerge.9640:

If #1 makes it live, this whole patch is a flop.

Agreed. It’s an insanely stupid idea. I don’t understand why this is being handled like normal PvE kills. It’s only going to encourage groups to gang up on smaller groups and loners.

I don’t understand this so well…

I run my groups of five across the landscape, all of us on raidcall in communication. We have a ton of fun, but work far harder to take a camp or tower on 3 – 5 people. Usually over the course of the WvW we accumulate our killstreak to 25 or throw siege to make up for having less numbers.

It is far harder to survive as a party and make it all count. We know our builds and there are times when we get steamrolled by 20 – 30+ players and then when we encounter them outside the zerg in their own groups, prove to be unskilled….

My concern with WvW is that it was supposed to be a gametype about the entire server pitching in to actually allow for World Bonuses and Open-Ended play. Instead its about few large guilds now representing the entire server. In short, we no longer have World vs World. In fact it has become ’Guild vs World" and that to me is a losing touch.

The counter-argument can be “Why should large guilds be punished for fielding large groups of players?” and my reply will always be "Because this is WvW, not GvW and a few large guilds by design should not equal the world.

Everone should get full credit for kills – i’m all for that. That encourages support play and build variety. Rewards like taking a objective needs however to be split between participants. If they do not implement that rule, WvW will be empty before they even know what happened. You can only encourage mindless gameplay, which is Zerging, for so long.

One more chance for Anet.

Just adding my two cents.

1. I like to roam in a small group. Why shouldn’t there be a greater pay off for any objectives taken / kills made if I am taking a greater risk by running in a group of 4 instead of 24? This makes no sense and you are just further rewarding zerging.

2. When I see someone with a pvp-related ranking (in any game, not just GW2), it becomes a challenge to kill them because it indicates that they are likely to have a higher level of skill than someone without a ranking. I will often single out this person because it is fun to fight people who are more skilled than yourself. Alternatively, if I see someone with an extremely high ranking title, I might choose to avoid them altogether. The ranking helps me make an important decision regarding the skill level of the person I am up against.

With the new system of awarding kill credits, people will find it much harder to achieve achieve higher rankings when they are running solo / in small groups. They will achieve higher rankings much more efficiently when running with the zerg, where individual skill is downplayed. The ranking therefore bears little or no reflection on individual skill levels, leading to a confusing and inverse system where higher ranking indicates lower individual skill level. How is this something to be proud of?

Arguably, wvw is about group play and not individual skill. However, if this is the case, why implement rankings for individuals and not eg. guilds? This would at least give guilds a reason to run together. As it is, all you are doing is creating a system which simply creates a giant arrow over someone’s head which says “I like to zerg”.

Samhayn.2385:

Serp.3264:

Let’s take a look at the math.

A player is worth 100 points. You have X number of players. Divide 100 by X and that is the value each player should get.

1 player kills one player: 100/1 = 100 for each player
2 players kill one player: 100/2 = 100 for each player
5 players kill one player: 100/5 = 100 for each player
10 people kill one player: 100/10 = 100 for each player
50 people kill one player: 100/50 = 100 for each player

I’m not sure what you all are complaining about. The math really seems to line up…

Sorry retreading your post it comes off as sarcasm, my bad. But I spent awhile on my phone weighting so I’m not going to delete it.

Using your math.

1v1 player kill total value 100 xp
2v1 player kill tv 200xp
5v1 pk tv 500 xp
10v1 pk tv 1000 xp
50v1 pk tv 5000 xp.

So by that standerd it’s more xp given out total for a 50 v 1 then a 1v1. Yet the amount of effort by the 50 would amount to “I hope I can get my skill off in time to get credit”.

I don’t know what else to say to make people understand that this is not a way to make the game better. This system will enforce hate toward small groups taking objectives before the Zerg gets there, spawn camping, and eventually the losing sides (normally way out manned) will stop showing up to fight because why feed the larger server xp (not to mention transfers to the already winning servers to get the easy xp).

I get that wvw is supposed to be casual friendly but it doesn’t have to be more friendly then it already is. It’s like removing the player caps on dungeons and fractals and telling people " bring as many people as you want and when you win loot for everyone!! ".

My post was 100% sarcasm. I thought that was obvious as the simple math I used as an example was incredibly wrong lol…

Zergs are good. I prefer leading a zerg of 50-80 people in WvW than a small group.
I hate WvW guilds who think they are worth more than a large zerg. A good amount of commanders on our server are zerg commanders and it works well. We are currently top 5 of EU servers.

Hahaha everyone gets full credit?

Oh my god there will be so much kill trading, timer or no timer.

Kill trading is pointless if you can joikittenerg and get 50-100 or more kill credits per hour.

Izzy Katsu.6024:

I think this might just make the whole thing worse. Now we’re going to have zergs that hunt people instead of towers and it’s basically just going to be a big gang kitten to get more points.

I don’t really have any ideas for solutions atm, but I imagine someone out there probably does.

What’s wrong with this? Not everyone plays WvW to flip keeps and towers.

Malediktus.9250:

Zergs are good. I prefer leading a zerg of 50-80 people in WvW than a small group.
I hate WvW guilds who think they are worth more than a large zerg. A good amount of commanders on our server are zerg commanders and it works well. We are currently top 5 of EU servers.

Sure zerging can be fun for some people. Most of us don’t even care that people Zerg. The problem comes in when it’s the only game in town and then overly rewarded to the point that doing anything but zerging is pointless.

I would rather have a system that the Zerg can go take keeps and towers well knowing that the havoc groups will do there best to make sure supply camps are capped and we are out there killing reinforcements and harassing the opposition.

Samhayn.2385:

Malediktus.9250:

Zergs are good. I prefer leading a zerg of 50-80 people in WvW than a small group.
I hate WvW guilds who think they are worth more than a large zerg. A good amount of commanders on our server are zerg commanders and it works well. We are currently top 5 of EU servers.

Sure zerging can be fun for some people. Most of us don’t even care that people Zerg. The problem comes in when it’s the only game in town and then overly rewarded to the point that doing anything but zerging is pointless.

I would rather have a system that the Zerg can go take keeps and towers well knowing that the havoc groups will do there best to make sure supply camps are capped and we are out there killing reinforcements and harassing the opposition.

This is all I’m asking for as well. I don’t want zerging to be absolutely killed, there are players that really do enjoy that playstyle. I just don’t want my playstyle devalued to encourage theirs.

declan.3968:

Izzy Katsu.6024:

I think this might just make the whole thing worse. Now we’re going to have zergs that hunt people instead of towers and it’s basically just going to be a big gang kitten to get more points.

I don’t really have any ideas for solutions atm, but I imagine someone out there probably does.

What’s wrong with this? Not everyone plays WvW to flip keeps and towers.

Easy to fix: Give tons of points for flipping or defending stuff but few for kills.

The zerg will always exist. Its a nice safe place for people that don’t want to get their feelings hurt.

The problem is zerging is the only game in town. If people were worth a fixed exp divided equally to groups that participate in the kill folks would have a reason to get outside the zerg once in a while. Then we would have groups of every size roaming around and not just one boring kitten zerg ball.

Plus this is going to cause zerg balls to chase down solos and reward them just the same as if they’d won a 1v1….so stupid.

Soooo do they already know what exactly will be in that patch? Or nothing changed since December?
Cause we had posts with detailed information a month ahead with PvE and sPvP stuff, even something silly like TP items preview. But for WvW it’s mystery till the end? Are you once again afraid of announcing something you can’t promiss? Just so you know, pretty much was promissed already and most folks are running out of patience…

Malediktus.9250:

declan.3968:

Izzy Katsu.6024:

I think this might just make the whole thing worse. Now we’re going to have zergs that hunt people instead of towers and it’s basically just going to be a big gang kitten to get more points.

I don’t really have any ideas for solutions atm, but I imagine someone out there probably does.

What’s wrong with this? Not everyone plays WvW to flip keeps and towers.

Easy to fix: Give tons of points for flipping or defending stuff but few for kills.

^^ This. And tweak outmanned slightly so that world xp rewards are buffed. This will avoid everyone joining the zerg in their BL/EB and send people into the enemy BLs.

I think the volume of whinging would be twice as loud if they decided to award xp on contribution to the kill. Everyone would re-roll dps builds and squeal about how unviable their tanks were for WvW. Every design decision by anet has been based on making sure you’re not directly competing with fellow players when you’re co-operating with them. Why should they abandon it now? Besides, all serious WvWers will probably unlock what they need pretty quickly (I can’t imagine it being as laborious as the SPvP rank grind).

Too much QQ here.

So 8 days before the patch… Where is the blog post..?

kiwiburner.2186:

Malediktus.9250:

declan.3968:

Izzy Katsu.6024:

I think this might just make the whole thing worse. Now we’re going to have zergs that hunt people instead of towers and it’s basically just going to be a big gang kitten to get more points.

I don’t really have any ideas for solutions atm, but I imagine someone out there probably does.

What’s wrong with this? Not everyone plays WvW to flip keeps and towers.

Easy to fix: Give tons of points for flipping or defending stuff but few for kills.

^^ This. And tweak outmanned slightly so that world xp rewards are buffed. This will avoid everyone joining the zerg in their BL/EB and send people into the enemy BLs.

I think the volume of whinging would be twice as loud if they decided to award xp on contribution to the kill. Everyone would re-roll dps builds and squeal about how unviable their tanks were for WvW. Every design decision by anet has been based on making sure you’re not directly competing with fellow players when you’re co-operating with them. Why should they abandon it now? Besides, all serious WvWers will probably unlock what they need pretty quickly (I can’t imagine it being as laborious as the SPvP rank grind).

Too much QQ here.

No one has asked for contribution to the kill. We just say assign a value to be divided by everyone in attendance, regardless of what % they did. You hit the target you get an equal share to everyone else who did.

If you are the ONLY one who hit the target, you get the full value.
If there are 2 of you and 1 does 90% of the kill and the other only 10%, they both still get 50% of the total.
Scale that up to zergs.

Its ok to split XP equally between all participants (…otherwise support-char would be missing out on rewards…), …
…but the post sounded like everyone would get 100% credit and that doenst work for pvp.

…if a single player being worth 100XP died and got “flagged” in-fight with 2 other enemies…XP for each HAVE TO BE 50XP.

On a sidenote:
The rewards for capping objectives in WvW should be split,too …imho, it would deincentify zergs and karma-trains even more.

Edragor.9164:

Its ok to split XP equally between all participants (…otherwise support-char would be missing out on rewards…), …
…but the post sounded like everyone would get 100% credit and that doenst work for pvp.

…if a single player being worth 100XP died and got “flagged” in-fight with 2 other enemies…XP for each HAVE TO BE 50XP.

On a sidenote:
The rewards for capping objectives in WvW should be split,too …imho, it would deincentify zergs and karma-trains even more.

You’ve basically just stated what many of us have been trying to say. I think you agree with us whether you realize it or not :-P

With the currently planned system, if a player is worth 100xp,
-1 person kills them, they get 100 xp
-a 40 man zerg kills him, 40 people get 100xp

Sounds just ludicrous to me.

So are we going to get a little more information before patch day?

Sounds like patch day will be PvE content, a “fix to culling” and the rest of the WvW stuff will be put on the backburner. Again. I hope I’m wrong..

NO BLOG ???? !

Habib bro, dont let us down.

Releasing broken features, fixing it, then calling it an expansion….Sounds like my company….

Acelerion.6820:

Releasing broken features, fixing it, then calling it an expansion….Sounds like my company….

“Expansion’s worth of content” and not charging you for it.

Hu?

Less than six days away for the WvW patch, that has been delayed since February.

Habib when can we expect a Blog post?

Please please please <3 please please please <3 please please please <3 please please please <3 please please please <3 please please please <3 make a blog post soooon?

Careful with your expressions of opinion, all. I got infracted for expressing the view in another thread that they might <censored> be<censored> with their sch<censored> <censored> <censored> <censored> <censored> on the basis of “posting untruths”. ROFL.

Quix.6475:

Matt Witter.6982:

1. Everyone that helped with the kill will get full credit for the kill.

:(

Zerg > all

This will kill the game for PvPers, you know that and you dont care.

If you dont know it, you should not be developing games. Rather asking people if they want it supersized.