Guild Wars 2

I think everyone agrees Warriors need a buff for WvW. However, is boon hate the way to do it? (In the April 30 patch, Warriors will be able to spec +3% damage for every boon on an enemy).

There are so many AoE boons thrown off in WvW that I can’t see any downside to a Warrior speccing boon hate. In most situations (except perhaps very small groups) the Warriors will probably get their bonuses.

On top of that, there is the real danger that support builds will begin to be a detriment to their groups (especially in large encounters). It is not unreasonable to expect that most Warriors will have at least a +9-12% damage bonus in most of these fights due to the number of boons thrown off.

Cue boon-hating hammer Warrior shock troops, and people cursing out support builds for getting them killed.

I may be overstating the case, since we don’t have all the info yet. And an anti-boon counter is definitely legitimate against boon-heavy bunker builds. However, passives like these do run the risk of ending up too powerful. Active abilities like Necro boon corruption or Thief boon stealing are far better since they are situational and require active use.

• The boon hate trait will require a 30 point investment in Discipline, which very, very few Warriors can afford to do because it severely cuts into necessary investments for builds elsewhere.
• The discipline line for Warriors has an awful secondary stat booster, which reduces the net effectiveness of a Warrior investing into it (+3% burst damage with 30 point investment)
• The warrior still suffers from a lack of sustainability in small-scale matches, and melts under pressure if Endure Pain / Shield Stance are not up in zerg combat

Honestly, I don’t think it will make a big difference at all, and your worry is for naught.

I really wish they would’ve implemented it as as Boon Stripping rather than extra damage.

Rising Dusk.2408:

• The boon hate trait will require a 30 point investment in Discipline, which very, very few Warriors can afford to do because it severely cuts into necessary investments for builds elsewhere.
• The discipline line for Warriors has an awful secondary stat booster, which reduces the net effectiveness of a Warrior investing into it (+3% burst damage with 30 point investment)
• The warrior still suffers from a lack of sustainability in small-scale matches, and melts under pressure if Endure Pain / Shield Stance are not up in zerg combat

Honestly, I don’t think it will make a big difference at all, and your worry is for naught.

I hope you are right however i still don’t agree that adding a passive effect that adds extra damage for something that is supposed to grant you support, Having boon hate in terms of nercos corruption and theives stripping is fine as it is an active counter to an active buff (just like condtional removal is an active counter to conditons)

Hope that made sense

This kinda makes me want to spec my warrior for kill shot and get this boon hate trait and the trait that makes rifle shots piece. Can you imagine that big ol kill shot ripping through zergs stacked with boons? Would be too much fun.

One other point to make is that Anet’s approach to buffing will make it very difficult to actively prevent boon-hate effecting your group.

In other games, you have to actively buff people. Before battles the buff classes make their rounds buffing everyone who needs it. Anet explicitly said they didn’t want this, as it is kind of boring. Instead, they implemented buffs as the side effects of fighting (combo fields + finishers).

The problem with combo fields and finishers is that they just happen. Almost every weapon has a field and a finisher of some sort, and obviously a great proportion of these create boons. In addition, most AoE skills create fields, meaning it is almost impossible to avoid them in anything larger than a small WvW fight.

This means with boon-hate we will end up with a mechanic much like confusion (or retaliation): something that punishes you for just playing the game. Against boon-hate heavy builds the solution will be to stop attacking them with skills that have finishers, or stop using skills that make fields.

As always, it depends how wide-spread boon hate builds will become. But as we’ve seen with gimmick builds in the past, if they give a significant advantage, they will spread quickly.

Thrumdi.9216:

This means with boon-hate we will end up with a mechanic much like confusion (or retaliation): something that punishes you for just playing the game. Against boon-hate heavy builds the solution will be to stop attacking them with skills that have finishers, or stop using skills that make fields.

I disagree with this assessment because it is very different. In order for boon hate to do anything, the Warrior must be able to take advantage of it. If you blast your friend’s light field and get Retaliation, you’re not punished for it; the Warrior still has to engage and strike you repeatedly to benefit from it. In this case, the Warrior is capitalizing on your setup if he actually can, much like how boon stealing on the Mesmer works. The key difference here is that confusion and retaliation put the onus on you to stop taking actions, rather than putting the onus on your opponent to engage and strike you.

It punishes certain builds in insanely silly ways while the worst OP Buffs are still OP.

Aegis is arguably strengthened by this implementation as it will block all damage from an attack and disappear. Protection is still far and away a net gain.

But Traits that grant Vigor on Dodge? Lingering Group Swiftness? Micro-duration Boons like Mesmer Staff 1?

Not to mention what this does to Elites like the Ranger’s Rampage as One…

Waffler.1257:

This kinda makes me want to spec my warrior for kill shot and get this boon hate trait and the trait that makes rifle shots piece. Can you imagine that big ol kill shot ripping through zergs stacked with boons? Would be too much fun.

stop giving stuff away >.< I want to abuse it first before it gets fixed, kitten

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

It punishes certain builds in insanely silly ways while the worst OP Buffs are still OP.

Aegis is arguably strengthened by this implementation as it will block all damage from an attack and disappear. Protection is still far and away a net gain.

But Traits that grant Vigor on Dodge? Lingering Group Swiftness? Micro-duration Boons like Mesmer Staff 1?

Not to mention what this does to Elites like the Ranger’s Rampage as One…

Remember that with, for example, RaO, that’s +9% damage, which requires 30 points in Discipline, meaning that the Warrior can’t have 30 in the Strength and Arms trait lines any more (which have +10% damage traits, mind you). The reality is that except against heavily boon-fortified foes, this will be a wash and not wind up making a big difference.

Ah, my Ranger has full Lyssa so I’m used to all Boons showing up
(+24% Damage (after Aegis eats one attack) is a lot scarier)

I still think this is a bigger impact than you think. Do you really think it makes sense that Full Zerker Rifle Warriors are going to be far superior back line fighters than Rangers?

It’s not like this change requires a Warrior to be more skillful in any way. It’s a Passive.

Aha.

That gives the Warrior a 5 second window to not only break your Aegis, but also take advantage of the boons you have. If you use something like LR, or Sword evades, or any of the number of the things the Ranger can use to avoid that follow-up hit, then you’re fine. The key is that it comes down to who outplays who in those 5 seconds.

Serophous.9085:

Waffler.1257:

This kinda makes me want to spec my warrior for kill shot and get this boon hate trait and the trait that makes rifle shots piece. Can you imagine that big ol kill shot ripping through zergs stacked with boons? Would be too much fun.

stop giving stuff away >.< I want to abuse it first before it gets fixed, kitten

I have a warrior alt I don’t play much, but it seems to me it would make Longbow a lot more viable. LB boon-hate AoE’s should be devastating to a boon heavy zerg.

Guardian “Save Yourselves!” Draw conditions from nearby allies to yourself. Gain multiple boons for a short duration.

You are loaded with conditions you get 7 boons. 7 * 3% that’s 21% damage bonus.

If you run around in groups I think it’s not uncommon to have 4 boons at least.

Cosmic.6047:

Guardian “Save Yourselves!” Draw conditions from nearby allies to yourself. Gain multiple boons for a short duration.

You are loaded with conditions you get 7 boons. 7 * 3% that’s 21% damage bonus.

If you run around in groups I think it’s not uncommon to have 4 boons at least.

To be fair, most guardians that use “save yourselves” don’t take any conditions so they just end up with a bunch of boons. And secondly, I could already rip apart those guardians with corrupt boon anyway ;p.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Aha.

That gives the Warrior a 5 second window to not only break your Aegis, but also take advantage of the boons you have. If you use something like LR, or Sword evades, or any of the number of the things the Ranger can use to avoid that follow-up hit, then you’re fine. The key is that it comes down to who outplays who in those 5 seconds.

Also my concern is more Zerg Vs Zerg than 1 v 1. If a Warrior outplays me great (though not that impressive I’m not a great duelist :P). What I don’t like is just how good this makes Rifle Warriors in the back of a Zerg. Combined with Piercing Shots that is a whole lotta Crit Damage blasting through a Zerg on a Profession with inherently better Armor and HP than a Ranger.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Aha.

That gives the Warrior a 5 second window to not only break your Aegis, but also take advantage of the boons you have. If you use something like LR, or Sword evades, or any of the number of the things the Ranger can use to avoid that follow-up hit, then you’re fine. The key is that it comes down to who outplays who in those 5 seconds.

Also my concern is more Zerg Vs Zerg than 1 v 1. If a Warrior outplays me great (though not that impressive I’m not a great duelist :P). What I don’t like is just how good this makes Rifle Warriors in the back of a Zerg. Combined with Piercing Shots that is a whole lotta Crit Damage blasting through a Zerg on a Profession with inherently better Armor and HP than a Ranger.

I main a warrior and trust me, none of the good builds involve going +30 into discipline. Ya youll have some glass cannon builds doing more dmg, but they are still weak as paper. So its not that big of a deal

I am quite interested to see how this turns out TBH. It might stop so many people rolling ele / guardian who seem to be uniquely capable on keeping insane uptime on nearly all boons at the same time.

I can’t say for sure until I test it but after some thinking, I am fairly certain I can get better dps without using that ability. That is 20 points that can be really useful in other lines. But it opens up some possibilities.

Bottom line, it doesn’t address the problems warriors face in WvW. I don’t find playing a warrior in WvW (I have a few 80s) overly difficult but other classes seem to do a better job at killing or support or surviving in the thick of big fights. You’d think warriors would be best at fighting in big blobs but I can name a few class builds that have the same survivability with better dps. I currently just get on my warrior when I feel like using siege, the only thing they seem best at. They also can chase down enemies pretty well. But I really don’t use him anymore.

So..

They’re giving warriors extra dmg.
To attack a player.
Whos using boons.
To stop extra dmg.

Seems legit.

Guardians all have boons naturally in their builds. Unfair much?
They also have awful health. And I mean disgusting.
14k on a lvl80 heavy class?
Wth. Warriors are similar heavy and they can grab 30k.
The argument was guardians use heals and boons.
Well.
Bye boons. Retaliation nerfed. Guardian #1 boon in a field of bad.

And Elite Renewed focus is < Warrior utility endure pain
Dumb.

Warrior= better skills, more health, same armour, and a ton more damage.
Does anyone in Anet actually compare two heavy classes?

Please someone dispute me.

Look, if you’re using a skill that gives you all the boons, you’re getting protection too.

Protection technically cuts out more damage than Boon Hate gives.

All Boon Hate is doing is giving the discipline tree a neat way to gain more damage, and a neat way to cut into protection-heavy builds(Eles, I’m looking at you).

I personally don’t like this method of using boon hate. Boon Hate would have been much more powerful and much more dynamic if skills would simply remove all boons on the target and put a debuff on the target making them incapable of gaining new boons for X seconds. This method adds a new dynamic to the game and makes players choose the right time to use them and how to best use them.

A passive increase is a complete waste of time because all we’re going to see is this % damage mechanic adjusted every single patch from now until this game closes shop.

Darxio.5672:

Look, if you’re using a skill that gives you all the boons, you’re getting protection too.

Protection technically cuts out more damage than Boon Hate gives.

All Boon Hate is doing is giving the discipline tree a neat way to gain more damage, and a neat way to cut into protection-heavy builds(Eles, I’m looking at you).

Eles are getting nerfed, or slapped as they so vaguely put it.
No good guardian runs the stupid “save yourselves” shout in WvW because a necro roflstomps you in a singe swing (most guardians run virtues buffs).

But what you’re saying is. A warrior can now simply negotiate a guardians protection boon as standard?

Why.
How does that seem logical? They’re already much stronger than a Guardian.
My full support guardian built for fighting zergs will already lose to a warrior over time due to the massive cooldowns we have. Which came in as a nerf near the start.
Now they’re telling me they are getting a buff that directly targets support? And yet warrior class can run shout support too?
Come on. Guardians have few enough variants as it is.
Why do they get to kill us and we don’t get a buff to return the favour?

Again.
Seems legit.
Thanks Anet.

Guys seems you don’t get what Warriors said, this trait will require spend 30 point in tree which doesn’t work with any good WvW build.

Is not buff for warrior is pushing it back to beta times when most of them was run on GS and riffle.

That warriors are very easy to take down by any class just get him in to melee range maybe for pug range fights will work but for guild raids not so much. Easy loot

Not worth maybe for fun as Sniper

If placed at 30 points into discipline, this trait will be of no value to a warrior. Assuming on average you hit vs something with 4 boons, thats 12% damage. May as well go 25 in arma for 10% more damage to bleeding foes, as just about everything in wvw has bleed on it. That minor trait isnt labeled broken though, and I doubt this one will be either.

You guys really need to stop crying for nerfs when your basic knowledge of the trait and class is just “OMG 24% more damage”.
Well you can all chill now.In order for a warrior to take that trait would need to invest 30 points in the must useless tree and in inunanimity begged for being changed since release.30 points =3 % burst skill damage (that being the f1 skill).YES 3*THREE % lol.
Also for achieving that 30 points in the specific tree a warrior would be unable to spec for other traits that would give them overall 30% DPS so is a very bad tradeoff that not only will not increase a warrior dps, but will only be equal at very best situationally.

Tldr

Bottomline you can all hold your horses.This new trait will only give warriors more versatility in creating builds but it is at best a tradeoff with other dps increasing traits located in other and much more usefull trees.The dps is more likely to decrease because of it and i hardly believe any sane warrior would ever afford to spec 30 points in the worst snd useless tree the class has.

Hope this makes some Light for all of you that believe OmgOmg Op Op Op (gangnam style!)

I understand it’s in a useless trait tree, BUT:

The two classes that focuses on boons is Guardians and Elementalists. Being a D/D ele myself with +70% boon duration with most boons up at all times during fights – this will be devastating.

Elementalists are the most squishy class in the game, with the lowest HP and only Light Armor. Boons and healing is the ONLY thing that makes us able to partake in WvWvW.

I don’t know if everyone here realises that there is only 1 feasible build for the ele in WvWvW: bunker build with focus on boon duration. All other builds will result in us being one shot from death or deal no damage whatsoever.

Aaaand it gone…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNBkYDbkzJ5t3R7hJOgYKUEnHURASeqHthdEHA-jkxAYLA0VkpCAJvioxqrxUuER1A-w
this is a simple warrior sniper build. It has NO defense. None.
It has the set-up to deliver massive KS in low CD.
If you include boom hate in it, you will have to give up the lower CD on KS (and lower cost with next patch).
As KS is the main source of dmg (with some from volley) Im not sure the 3% increase per boom (still not as good to bypass protection) is more dmg than lower CD and cost on burst skills.

Anyone that wants to try it, go ahead… its fun until you kill yourself on a reflection wall. (new signet will only make 3 attacks unblockable)

It’s not a useless trait tree. It’s too late here for me to go into the math and all, but it’s just not useless at all. Had to say that.

The 3% burst damage add is just a leftover from beta when it was +30% burst damage at maximum. They nerfed it and didn’t have anything better to put there so just left an insignificant damage modifier. That line also gives 30% crit damage at max, which, considered in relation with the potential 24% from boon hate, is getting pretty freekin close to the 30% burst damage add they originally felt the need to nerf to 3% because the synergy with crit damage was too strong.

Should make for some interesting play though. Dropping every trait that gives me boons on my elementalist and switching to S/F so I can reflect and block some of those kill shots, and re-traiting my warrior to a fun little build I just thought up…..

Its bad for my allied Warriors when I am playing a Necro. My enemies don’t get the luxury of boons.

Omega.8625:

I understand it’s in a useless trait tree, BUT:

The two classes that focuses on boons is Guardians and Elementalists. Being a D/D ele myself with +70% boon duration with most boons up at all times during fights – this will be devastating.

Elementalists are the most squishy class in the game, with the lowest HP and only Light Armor. Boons and healing is the ONLY thing that makes us able to partake in WvWvW.

I don’t know if everyone here realises that there is only 1 feasible build for the ele in WvWvW: bunker build with focus on boon duration. All other builds will result in us being one shot from death or deal no damage whatsoever.

Aaaand it gone…

If it means you can no longer mist off and regen from 10-100% hp in seconds, run back through portals after you are downed, stack umpteen boons and generally be a pain in the kitten to kill after they nerf confusion then I’m all for the change.

Learn to play a different ele build, one that doesn’t rely on a broken mechanic to stack boons and isn’t a gimmick. Actually, just jump on your thief alt, there’s another class that relies on a broken mechanic in the vast majority of cases.

Would be easy to fix d/d eles- 10 second cooldown on boon generation, so after they are stripped it starts a cooldown timer before you could apply them again. Now QQ that it would ruin ‘the only build that works in wvw’.

Meh if a warrior wants to spec for dps in wvw let them imo. I certainly won’t be speccing into 30 Discipline any time soon.

Victory.2879:

Omega.8625:

I understand it’s in a useless trait tree, BUT:

The two classes that focuses on boons is Guardians and Elementalists. Being a D/D ele myself with +70% boon duration with most boons up at all times during fights – this will be devastating.

Elementalists are the most squishy class in the game, with the lowest HP and only Light Armor. Boons and healing is the ONLY thing that makes us able to partake in WvWvW.

I don’t know if everyone here realises that there is only 1 feasible build for the ele in WvWvW: bunker build with focus on boon duration. All other builds will result in us being one shot from death or deal no damage whatsoever.

Aaaand it gone…

If it means you can no longer mist off and regen from 10-100% hp in seconds, run back through portals after you are downed, stack umpteen boons and generally be a pain in the kitten to kill after they nerf confusion then I’m all for the change.

Learn to play a different ele build, one that doesn’t rely on a broken mechanic to stack boons and isn’t a gimmick. Actually, just jump on your thief alt, there’s another class that relies on a broken mechanic in the vast majority of cases.

Would be easy to fix d/d eles- 10 second cooldown on boon generation, so after they are stripped it starts a cooldown timer before you could apply them again. Now QQ that it would ruin ‘the only build that works in wvw’.

Firstly, I don’t use the well known Mistform + Healing combo as this was not intended by the developers and feels like an exploit. Boons stacking is the most effective way of increasing damage while still being able to survive for an ele.

Also, I don’t have a thief alt – the playing style doesn’t suit me at all. I like being in the midst of battle.

Should confusion be nerfed? No – actually they could buff confusion in my opinion, I don’t have a Mesmer myself, but they aren’t the challenge in WvW that they are in PvP.

I don’t want to start wars or hate messages here. I’m only giving my opinion on the matter.

Should Warriors be buffed? I don’t know. But buffing them against support builds is a low blow, wouldn’t you say? Especially since Warriors can use ranged.

Would like to see the notes first (and the max value, etc)…but no idea how a trait on one class can be ‘boon hate’.

How is it not just another flavor of damage boost trait (like many classes have) but that is just unreliable in it’s final value?

For it to be boon hate, wouldn’t it have to make you consider not giving people boons? Are you really going to consider that just because one class MIGHT trait something that gives them some extra damage?

I’m not worried at all, and I mainly play a guardian now.

Boon Hate will be a nonfactor. The only issue it will bring is with axe warriors if they manage to hit a guardian that just popped Save Yourselves. Then Boon Hate will hurt, a lot. Boon Hate only affects the F1 Skill in terms of increased damage. So, unless I see someone running an axe build, I won’t be too worried.

And besides, I have two dodges and invulnerability, hue hue hue.

Elementalists sort of had this for ages:

2% dmg per boon on them self.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power

If warrior will be running that build, he will either have 0 points invested in defensive trait lines or power/precision ones. So either it will be easier to kill him as well or more likely (for wvw/pvp) his dmg will NOT be changed a lot. As he will have less power or less crit chance or dmg bonuses taken out from some of the trait lines. Probably it will have no sense running this build unless you go in heavy burst skill dmg and you know that you’ll be facing oponents with 4-5 boons at all time.

You can see why they did it, bunker guardians are very strong and warriors needed some love, but I don’t think giving boon hate in a tree hardly anyone uses is much help to warriors, and the last thing warriors need is more damage.

As someone who mains a warrior I wont be getting the boon hate trait, I am looking forward to getting regen on immobilise though.

Seren.6850:

You can see why they did it, bunker guardians are very strong and warriors needed some love, but I don’t think giving boon hate in a tree hardly anyone uses is much help to warriors, and the last thing warriors need is more damage.

As someone who mains a warrior I wont be getting the boon hate trait, I am looking forward to getting regen on immobilise though.

Speccing boon hate will not give warriors more damage.is only an attempt to make warriours use that tree in their builds more often and make them more flexible in their builds.Before this trait no one would have invested points because in order to do so you would hage do drop considerable dps traits from other trees.But i personally think ill rather have my 30% DPS traits as their are now on a target with no boons at all that having to drop them in exchange for 24 % when 8 boons are up on the target including protection wich is laughable.Pure logic says that choosing it for dps is at best a lol choice and will not in any combination increase the dps potential of the warrior.Anet tought of it very carefully it seems.
I woud ha personally wished to see an improvement to the lol3% burst damage for 30 points in the tree for something actually usefull like less cond duration or speed or whatever instead of the joke 3% f1 skill damage once ever 10 seconds.Clearly lazy to leave this tree broken for 8 months already and still no hope that it will ever get fixed.

Eles and Guardians are losing their kitten in this thread, and yet I’d be surprised if any warriors take this trait (other than trolly zerker-rifles). I know I won’t (I main warrior). It simply is not worth the trait points, nobody is going to use it, so you can stop freaking out.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much to be honest. Warriors lack sustainability, that’s what needs a buff.

Ragnar.4257:

Eles and Guardians are losing their kitten in this thread

You must not be reading what I’m reading.

We also have to consider what the value of a crit/boon hate warrior is in WvW. So lets say he can snipe you from the back line with KS while a battle takes place. So what? Killing one person in a ZvZ will not affect the battle. The rifle is single party DPS, so he will have no AoE to hit the zerg. Because of his low armor and life he will be just as vulnerable as most back line speced professions. In siege warfare the LB will still be better all around for its AoE, fire and blast finishers, and pindown.

I would be more worried about axe or sword warriors that know when to time their spin or burst. Flurry and whatever that spinning move is on the axe will be painful if one of the boons you do not have up is protection.

boondocksaint.6529:

We also have to consider what the value of a crit/boon hate warrior is in WvW. So lets say he can snipe you from the back line with KS while a battle takes place. So what? Killing one person in a ZvZ will not affect the battle. The rifle is single party DPS, so he will have no AoE to hit the zerg.

You do know you can trait rifle shots to pierce right?

Good change imo, boons are too strong atm anyways. I can’t say I would’ve argued with boon strip instead, but that doesn’t make this one bad. It’s a GM trait, they’re supposed to be strong. Hopefully others get boosted like this in the future

Odaman.8359:

Good change imo, boons are too strong atm anyways. I can’t say I would’ve argued with boon strip instead, but that doesn’t make this one bad. It’s a GM trait, they’re supposed to be strong. Hopefully others get boosted like this in the future

stealth is also too convenient as well, I think ANet should add a “stealth hate” GM trait for some classes, so with that when the player lands a hit on thief in stealth, it does extra damage and pop them out of stealth instantly.