Guild Wars 2

I have deleted the previous thread due to off topic and disruptive replies.

I promised to provide screen shots on this matter, so here we go…

Screen 1- Standing near keep and a Mesmer appears out of stealth and drops 22,829k worth of damage in seconds. Thankfully I was getting keep health buffs and was able to dodge some of the damage. Had it not been for the keep buff or quick dodges, I would have been multi-skill burst killed in seconds…

Screen 2- In a group fight, out of nowhere, a Thief appears and drops 27,089K multi-skill burst damage in seconds. This round I did not survive.

I’ve been taking screens of damage output during fights and noticed a few issues…

1. The amount of critical damage some individual professions can do is off the charts.

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

3. Thief has way too much access to high amounts of damage due to initiative mechanics. The initiative mechanics break from all other profession’s damage “checks and balances” balancing mechanics, and is clearly unbalanced.

4. Mesmer and Thief multi-skill opening burst, from stealth, is problematic.

5. Too many disparities between attack speeds and skill tells/animations between professions… Warrior, for example, has huge tells/animations for skills that provide a realistic amount of time to react. Most other professions and skills have an appropriate (some just too kitten slow to be useful) amount of skill tells/animations… Some professions and skills, though, break from this norm and have such quick skill tells/animations, that is makes for this unbalanced amount of ultra quick multi-skill bursts to occur… This is not good because it causes the scenarios in the screens I have provided.

…There are a number of “break from base” designs that may have been interesting profession and skill design concepts at launch, but certain “things” that break from core designs are doing harm to your competitive players vs other players game modes.

It’s time to tackle some problematic issues, like these, that are constantly brought up over the course of 4 years. Start changing some values, like you are starting to do for spvp, then give your balance team the proper person power and resources to take a fresh look at professions, skills and combat designs.

WvW deserves, and needs, to have professions and skills balanced according to players against other players combat, not mirrored balance according to AI pve raids and pve content.

Thank you!

Eval.2371:

Ok, objectively I get what the OP is trying to say. That no build should be able to completely one hit another. It shouldn’t be possible.

I’ve played the thief build in question, which you can combo upwards of 38k in two hits, I’ve played the same build on a ranger that hit the same value in a single hit, followed by another 20k from tiger f2. Likewise, I’ve also played the opposite end of the spectrum against these kinds of builds, the undying tank ele, the unmoveable full nomads guard, and so on. That laugh in the face of these kinds of builds and win the fight.

[sic]…[[/sic]

This what my experience is. The numbers on both ends spectrum are disgusting. While I’d love to see the stats brought in line from both sides I still have to say this, you die because you misplayed. You either didn’t bring the right stat pool to fight your opponent appropriately or you played poorly in that encounter. You need to either tank up, or get good if you want to beat glass builds.

My offer from the previous thread still stands, I am willing to go over your builds and give you options to play against these types of builds. This post screams to me, I am struggling and don’t understand please help me. I want to help you but can’t if your not willing to help your self.

Lastly, I’d like to ask you to not delete threads and make new ones when your vision is not shared. You’ve done this in the past and its considered spamming. It also shows that you don’t want to discuss things, but instead tell people I am right your wrong. Even when they are trying to help you. Which also isnt the spirit of the forums.

Ok I’ll bite,

To be as objective as possible.

are we going of of your claimed 2700 Armor on your Reaper still? Or are you not gonna provide that info in the OP again?

Need a little context for those damage numbers to see how they were achieved.

Now let’s nit pick your Thief Screen shot in the OP shall we back on topic?
Using this build

So best case Scenario max everything from a Solo Thief.
—-——————HM-Sc-SS-EW-BD-LA Crit D
((1030*2806*2.4)1.07*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.15*2.2807)/2700=10,555.84222149789

Now let’s nit pick this equation, that is max weapon damage, we have 2806 power and 228.07 Crit Damage from Full Berserker gear w/ Scholar Runes and 25 stack of Bloodlust, Deadly Arts for Exposed Weakness 10% damage, Trickery for Lead Attacks up to 15% damage increase from Ini use and Preparedness for more Initiative, and Daredevil running Havoc Mastery for 7% damage increase and Bound for 10% damage increase. Now for the other modifiers you receive 10% for having 90% health or more from Scholar Runes, and 10% damage while Moving from Seaweed Salad.

So again we have 2806 power with 7 damage modifiers in the form of 1.07,1.1, 1.1, 1.1, 1.1,1.15 and 2.2807 for a grand total of 4.108852216535 which is equivalent to 411% damage increase.

This build also only has 12k HP, 1000 Toughness and 2118 Armor. Since all stats and boost go directly into damage and nothing else.

Now let’s look at the numbers that offset this, your Reapers Armor at as you say 2700 Armor.

Now first thing we notice the Power is already 106 more power than you have Armor, so the base power will outweighs your defensive stat, then you take a look at all 7 other Offensive stat increases, now we have 8 Offensive damage increasers against your one stat of 2700.

This only reflects the numbers and build not include the setup/positioning /prep required to land the hit.

So just on those facts alone yes that one attack with all those conditions being met that highly outweigh your one defensive stat should do that high damage since the build is designed to do 411% damage over base on all of its attacks while having no defensive stats.

I don’t think any in-depth analysis is necessary. To me this topic seems like it’s trying to say, twitchy players are too powerful with twitchy builds.

Well, you can’t doing anything about that except load up on as much passive defense as possible. Though I think Necro might be a little short handed in that department.

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

A few things….

The mods were fully aware that the thread devolved into non-constructive discussion.

Instead of making a bunch of reports (sent a few, though), I chose to remake the thread…

It’s very clear that some commenters are not fully absorbing the entire post. It’s probably a good idea to let the words sink in a bit before y’all jump the gun and lay out assumptions.

I’m fully aware how to play, let’s not assume issues do not exist in wvw or the game in general. And let’s not pretend there has been a ton a proper review and balancing throughout the game… We need not look farther than the recent (after 4 years) skill splits happening in spvp to understand how far behind the dev team is on these matters.

Some additional critical thinking and rational posting will be best for the thread, so keep it on topic and clean.

Thanks!

DeceiverX.8361:

Since OP plays necro, here’s a < 2s 20k burst from my reaper as well. This isn’t even anything substantial, but just a vanilla GS 4 -> 1 -> 2 combo, which mind you, could have easily proc’ed CoD for another 5k instantaneously.

Soul Spiral often hits between 15 and 20k on its own. The dodge button is pretty magical and shuts down most combo builds, particularly high-burst ones running core.

If you’re struggling, asking for help first is usually better than complaining and then deleting the many arguments posed by other people who disagree with you. Now you just look like a fool.

Cheers.

Just play the Power Boonstrip Conquest Build @ Full Zerk Gear in WvW. Enabling Reaper Shroud deals 10K damage, strips boons and can be easily combined with any other burst. E.g.:
Grasping Darkness (3K) -> enter Shroud (10K)
Gravedigger (10K) -> enter Shroud (10K) or
Chilled to the Bone (3K + stun) -> enter Shroud (10K) -> Soul Spiral (10K) or
Dagger 3 Immob -> Well of Suffering (10K) -> enter Shroud (10K)

If a part of the burst is dodged: weapon swap to Axe -> Ghastly claws (10K) right after the dodge.

Every class can burst when going full zerk – the Reaper’s burst is even unblockable (Nothing Can Save You!)

OP: You should not have any problem killing Power Shatter Mesmers when you’re running 2,7K armor. You can shroudtank at least 2 of their bursts until you get some trouble with your health. Clearly a l2p issue here.

Classes you fear on Necro are the ones that can deal damage while negating your damage (Dragonhunter Blocks, Endure Pain, Unrelenting Assault, D/D thieves, Bunker Druids letting their pet do the job) as they have an easy time to outsustain you (in that scenario Nightfall is a very underestimated skill to survive)… but not squishy burst builds like Power Shatters. And did you ever notice you can HEAR the setup of the mesmer burst?

KrHome.1920:

DeceiverX.8361:

Since OP plays necro, here’s a < 2s 20k burst from my reaper as well. This isn’t even anything substantial, but just a vanilla GS 4 -> 1 -> 2 combo, which mind you, could have easily proc’ed CoD for another 5k instantaneously.

Soul Spiral often hits between 15 and 20k on its own. The dodge button is pretty magical and shuts down most combo builds, particularly high-burst ones running core.

If you’re struggling, asking for help first is usually better than complaining and then deleting the many arguments posed by other people who disagree with you. Now you just look like a fool.

Cheers.

Just play the Power Boonstrip Conquest Build @ Full Zerk Gear in WvW. Enabling Reaper Shroud deals 10K damage, strips boons and can be easily combined with any other burst. E.g.:
Grasping Darkness (3K) -> enter Shroud (10K)
Gravedigger (10K) -> enter Shroud (10K) or
Chilled to the Bone (3K + stun) -> enter Shroud (10K) -> Soul Spiral (10K) or
Dagger 3 Immob -> Well of Suffering (6 to 12K) -> enter Shroud (10K)

If a part the burst is dodged: weapon swap to Axe -> Ghasly claws (5 to 10K) right after the dodge

Every class can burst when going full zerk.

OP: You should not have any problem killing Power Shatter Mesmers when you’re running 2,7K armor. You can shroudtank at least 2 of their bursts until you get some trouble wigh you health. Clearly a l2p issue here.

Classes you fear on Necro are the ones that can deal damage while negating your damage (Dragonhunter Blocks, Endure Pain, Unrelenting Assault, D/D thieves) as they have an easy time to outsustain you… but not squishy burst builds like Power Shatters.

Thank you, but that’s not what the topic is about. Let’s mentally separate the screens from 1-5 because that’s what most of you are hung up on…. The screens were to mostly highlight the global issues that opened up for points 1-5…. Reread 1-5 and understand.

Thanks again!

Swagger.1459:

A few things….

The mods were fully aware that the thread devolved into non-constructive discussion.

Instead of making a bunch of reports (sent a few, though), I chose to remake the thread…

It’s very clear that some commenters are not fully absorbing the entire post. It’s probably a good idea to let the words sink in a bit before y’all jump the gun and lay out assumptions.

I’m fully aware how to play, let’s not assume issues do not exist in wvw or the game in general. And let’s not pretend there has been a ton a proper review and balancing throughout the game… We need not look farther than the recent (after 4 years) skill splits happening in spvp to understand how far behind the dev team is on these matters.

Some additional critical thinking and rational posting will be best for the thread, so keep it on topic and clean.

Thanks!

Again your OP lack relevant data either from you wanting to keep it obscure or for other reasons so I had to use “data” from the other post. I laid out the facts to achieve the numbers in one of your screenshots regarding the thief damage.

It seems like you just want Berserker geared builds to do similar damage to bunker builds, the one measly defensive stat Armor at a relatively low number like 2700 vs Base Power of 2806 being 106 more and having 7 other damage modifiers increasing the disparity even further, so again if you want an Objective discussion go for it.

I have laid out how the Thief was able to achieve that damage against your reaper now try to find out why a Build that has no Defensive stats and has every stat and boost go into increasing damage shouldn’t do damage vs someone with only 2700 armor?

Time for you to take an objective stance lay out the numbers, and your reasoning.

The “facts” as of right now as per Swagger.
Reaper with 25.5k HP, 1700 Toughness and 2700 Armor.
Was dealt 10,386 damage by a Thief back stab followed up by other attacks.

These below inferred facts are from reverse engineering Swaggers provide “facts”(10,386 damage vs 2700 armor)

Full Berserker w/Scholar Thief with 12k HP, 1000 Toughness, 2118 Armor, 2806 Power(using full Bloodlust stack), 228.07% Crit Damage and 58.33% Crit Chance. Maximizing on 6 non stat damage modifiers Seaweed Salad, Exposed Weakness, Lead Attacks, Bounding Dodger, Havoc Mastery and last but not least Scholar Runes.

Remember objectivity is key here and so is context.

Also note the screenshots posted by other players so far highlight that multiple classes have ways to do high burst damage like DeceiverX’ reaper dealing 12k in a single hit.

If need be I will collect other relevant screenshots per class to highlight such, if need be will upload them in similar style as the OP to stick with spirit of the thread!

KrHome.1920:

Just play the Power Boonstrip Conquest Build @ Full Zerk Gear in WvW. Enabling Reaper Shroud deals 10K damage, strips boons and can be easily combined with any other burst. E.g.:
Grasping Darkness (3K) -> enter Shroud (10K)
Gravedigger (10K) -> enter Shroud (10K) or
Chilled to the Bone (3K + stun) -> enter Shroud (10K) -> Soul Spiral (10K) or
Dagger 3 Immob -> Well of Suffering (10K) -> enter Shroud (10K)

If a part of the burst is dodged: weapon swap to Axe -> Ghastly claws (10K) right after the dodge.

Every class can burst when going full zerk – the Reaper’s are even unblockable (Nothing Can Save You!)

OP: You should not have any problem killing Power Shatter Mesmers when you’re running 2,7K armor. You can shroudtank at least 2 of their bursts until you get some trouble with your health. Clearly a l2p issue here.

Classes you fear on Necro are the ones that can deal damage while negating your damage (Dragonhunter Blocks, Endure Pain, Unrelenting Assault, D/D thieves, Bunker Druids letting their pet do the job) as they have an easy time to outsustain you (in that scenario Nightfall is a very underestimated skill to survive)… but not squishy burst builds like Power Shatters. And did you ever notice you can HEAR the setup of the mesmer burst?

Sorry to go off topic, but how does entering shroud deal 10k damage? I looked up the build, and see Spiteful Shroud is used, but I don’t see how that can get up to 10k even with every possible damage modifier. Is this one of those weird instances where the tooltip is completely wrong?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Swagger.1459:

A few things….

The mods were fully aware that the thread devolved into non-constructive discussion.

Instead of making a bunch of reports (sent a few, though), I chose to remake the thread…

It’s very clear that some commenters are not fully absorbing the entire post. It’s probably a good idea to let the words sink in a bit before y’all jump the gun and lay out assumptions.

I’m fully aware how to play, let’s not assume issues do not exist in wvw or the game in general. And let’s not pretend there has been a ton a proper review and balancing throughout the game… We need not look farther than the recent (after 4 years) skill splits happening in spvp to understand how far behind the dev team is on these matters.

Some additional critical thinking and rational posting will be best for the thread, so keep it on topic and clean.

Thanks!

Again your OP lack relevant data either from you wanting to keep it obscure or for other reasons so I had to use “data” from the other post. I laid out the facts to achieve the numbers in one of your screenshots regarding the thief damage.

It seems like you just want Berserker geared builds to do similar damage to bunker builds, the one measly defensive stat Armor at a relatively low number like 2700 vs Base Power of 2806 being 106 more and having 7 other damage modifiers increasing the disparity even further, so again if you want an Objective discussion go for it.

I have laid out how the Thief was able to achieve that damage against your reaper now try to find out why a Build that has no Defensive stats and has every stat and boost go into increasing damage shouldn’t do damage vs someone with only 2700 armor?

Time for you to take an objective stance lay out the numbers, and your reasoning.

The “facts” as of right now as per Swagger.
Reaper with 25.5k HP, 1700 Toughness and 2700 Armor.
Was dealt 10,386 damage by a Thief back stab followed up by other attacks.

These below inferred facts are from reverse engineering Swaggers provide “facts”(10,386 damage vs 2700 armor)

Full Berserker Thief with 12k HP, 1000 Toughness, 2118 Armor, 2806 Power(using full Bloodlust stack), 228.07% Crit Damage and 58.33% Crit Chance. Maximizing on 5 non stat damage modifiers Seaweed Salad, Exposed Weakness, Lead Attacks, Bounding Dodger and Havoc Mastery.

Remember objectivity is key here and so is context.

Also note the screenshots posted by other players so far highlight that multiple classes have ways to do high burst damage like DeceiverX’ reaper dealing 12k in a single hit.

If need be I will collect other relevant screenshots per class to highlight such, if need be will upload them in similar style as the OP to stick with spirit of the thread!

Read my previous post.

Focus on the words of the post because you are hung up on the screens. Some posters before were able to do that so I was hoping by now you would have caught on.

Also, you seem to forget I already addressed this stuff… “Also note the screenshots posted by other players”… My number 1 covered that and applies to all professions. The word individual also means like solo, without like team buffs and stuff.

Would it be more helpful if I were to remove the screens so things are more understandable?

Edit… This thread was not about “maths”, it was about larger “stuffs”, so save your numbers for an appropriate thread… You’ll clearly know a math related discussion thread if I brought one up, but this is not that type of thread.

Swagger.1459:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Swagger.1459:

A few things….

Snip!

Again your OP lack relevant data either from you wanting to keep it obscure or for other reasons so I had to use “data” from the other post. I laid out the facts to achieve the numbers in one of your screenshots regarding the thief damage.

It seems like you just want Berserker geared builds to do similar damage to bunker builds, the one measly defensive stat Armor at a relatively low number like 2700 vs Base Power of 2806 being 106 more and having 7 other damage modifiers increasing the disparity even further, so again if you want an Objective discussion go for it.

I have laid out how the Thief was able to achieve that damage against your reaper now try to find out why a Build that has no Defensive stats and has every stat and boost go into increasing damage shouldn’t do damage vs someone with only 2700 armor?

Time for you to take an objective stance lay out the numbers, and your reasoning.

The “facts” as of right now as per Swagger.
Reaper with 25.5k HP, 1700 Toughness and 2700 Armor.
Was dealt 10,386 damage by a Thief back stab followed up by other attacks.

These below inferred facts are from reverse engineering Swaggers provide “facts”(10,386 damage vs 2700 armor)

Full Berserker Thief with 12k HP, 1000 Toughness, 2118 Armor, 2806 Power(using full Bloodlust stack), 228.07% Crit Damage and 58.33% Crit Chance. Maximizing on 5 non stat damage modifiers Seaweed Salad, Exposed Weakness, Lead Attacks, Bounding Dodger and Havoc Mastery.

Remember objectivity is key here and so is context.

Also note the screenshots posted by other players so far highlight that multiple classes have ways to do high burst damage like DeceiverX’ reaper dealing 12k in a single hit.

If need be I will collect other relevant screenshots per class to highlight such, if need be will upload them in similar style as the OP to stick with spirit of the thread!

Read my previous post.

Focus on the words of the post because you are hung up on the screens. Some posters before were able to do that so I was hoping by now you would have caught on.

Also, you seem to forget I already addressed this stuff… “Also note the screenshots posted by other players”… My number 1 covered that and applies to all professions. The word individual also means like solo, without like team buffs and stuff.

Would it be more helpful if I were to remove the screens so things are more understandable?

Edit… This thread was not about “maths”, it was about larger “stuffs”, so save your numbers for an appropriate thread… You’ll clearly know a math related discussion thread if I brought one up, but this is not that type of thread.

again you fail to see, my question after I provided context for you, why should a Spec solely built for damage should do as much damage as a bunker?

The facts to deal anywhere near one of your screenshots the Thief would have to forgo all defensive stats for pure offensive stats, to achieve that burst.

So the question is why should that Thief that has less than half your health, 600 less toughness and has a higher power stat than your reapers armor stat, so again why shouldn’t a build built solely for damage and forgos all defensive stats deal the same damage as a bunker? Since that seems to be your goal.

Again all classes can build for burst damage or pure defensive, the burst should clearly do a lot of damage since you know it take damage stats, it’s not a hard concept to understand.

Anyone Let me know if I need to clarify any of this.

Again I laid out the numbers try to refute them if you must but they go off of your “facts” provided. A pure glass thief with no defensive stats ganked you.

Building for pure damage does high burst and no defensive stats , building for pure defense negates high burst and has very little offensive stats(except Condi builds), building down the middle gives average of each.

#highriskhighreward

OP says the math is irrelevant so that means the damage in the screenshot is irrelevant, so everyone can disregard the whole thread as being irrelevant everything is fine.

Op if you want a gamemode that kills/limits build diversity and limits all stat pools then you are in luck they have just the thing for you, it’s called sPvP!

If you trim glass cannon builds you are just enabeling more facetanking style play.

Who thought a combat log that showed only minutes and not seconds would be useful?

@blaq

Thank you…

Comment on these now… I’ll elaborate more as well so we can have a productive conversation.

“I’ve been taking screens of damage output during fights and noticed a few issues…

1. The amount of critical damage some individual professions can do is off the charts. (No one here denies there are some heavy crit numbers so this makes ttk a bit too fast)

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced. (Stealth in this game, compared to a couple others I quoted in another thread, have been poorly thought out. One game studio, I brought up as reference, thought about andimplemented an entire stealth system with checks and balances. Another game company is working on preventing stealth opening, burst and restealth scenarios.)

3. Thief has way too much access to high amounts of damage due to initiative mechanics. The initiative mechanics break from all other profession’s damage “checks and balances” balancing mechanics, and is clearly unbalanced. (No one can deny that initiative mechanics allow for multiples of the same high damage skills to be used in succession. This comment ties in with the final thoughts portion where I mention “break from core” designs.)

4. Mesmer and Thief multi-skill opening burst, from stealth, is problematic. (No player can deny that both these professions can heavily burst open from stealth… Then restealth and get out of need be, but that goes with 2 and I’m sure we get the scenario.)

5. Too many disparities between attack speeds and skill tells/animations between professions… Warrior, for example, has huge tells/animations for skills that provide a realistic amount of time to react. Most other professions and skills have an appropriate (some just too kitten slow to be useful) amount of skill tells/animations… Some professions and skills, though, break from this norm and have such quick skill tells/animations, that is makes for this unbalanced amount of ultra quick multi-skill bursts to occur… This is not good because it causes the scenarios in the screens I have provided. (Skill tells are important to have, and there are some very large disparities with that, and skill cast speeds too, between certain profession skills. Any player can see the differences between certain skills… No one can argue that some skills are highly telegraphed and some not right?)

…There are a number of “break from base” designs that may have been interesting profession and skill design concepts at launch, but certain “things” that break from core designs are doing harm to your competitive players vs other players game modes. (No one can deny that a lot of these pve designed professions are neat in ways, but some of these neat “things” throw balanced competitive play off. This ties in with the final comment about the brand new Spvp numbers balancing act of… “Recharge Damage multipliers, Healing multipliers, Number of conditions/boons applied, Duration of conditions/boons applied and Skill cost (energy and initiative)”.)

It’s time to tackle some problematic issues, like these, that are constantly brought up over the course of 4 years. Start changing some values, like you are starting to do for spvp, then give your balance team the proper person power and resources to take a fresh look at professions, skills and combat designs. (It should be clear what I’m saying here.)

WvW deserves, and needs, to have professions and skills balanced according to players against other players combat, not mirrored balance according to AI pve raids and pve content. (I think any rational player doesn’t want professsions in wvw balanced according to the profession balance of raids and pve content right?)"

@ Swagger why don’t you answer my question instead of trying to kite it? Here I’ll pose it again.

Why should High risk builds that slot no defensive stats not be rewarded with high damage, and why do you think they should deal the same numbers as bunkers?

and it is only your opinion that the numbers break away from base design since no statement as such has ever been given by Anet in regards to WvW. And again you said all the numbers are irrelevant so the numbers in your screenshot are irrelevant an should be removed since they detract from the message of your post. And you shouldn’t talk about numbers “breaking away from base” since again as you stated the numbers are irrelevant.

And you seem to be targeting Thief, Mesmer and stealth only and not any other class so your main gripe is those two classes, while other classes like Druid also can Stealth Burst restealth quite as effectively, while also maintain range.

And then theirs the fact that you are going on about stealth which is a defensive mechanic and offensive mechanic that relies on active play while ignoring the fact that classes can do bigger Burst while Invuln, Proc by passive Invuln or while having very impactful passive sustain. (These are all relevant to the discussion since the game isn’t a Vacuum)

So all I am seeing is a Post about having difficulty fighting those two classes.

TL:DR
Answer the question posed since your want th spirit of a good discussion.

if Anet starts looking at Nerfing burst damage they better equally nerf Sustain and Defensive stats, if they start nerfing Classes defensive mechanics like Stealth they need to either compensate(which is the worst idea)or nerf every other classes defensive mechanics( which is the better idea)

HoT introduced too much on every class that gave them too many defensive options its not just ermergherd Stealth and ermergherd burst.

Ps why don’t you want to talk about the numbers? Since to take an objective stance on the subject and the “proofs” provided in OP you have to look at how those damage numbers were achieved against your Characters. I "proved"how it was achieved by one class which sacrifices a lot to do it, it’s not like that Build was running around 2700 Armor and 25.5k health doing that amount of damage, which is a fair trade off.

Again objectivity is key no need for opinions let’s stick to the facts.

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Well, city of heroes had some great stealth and counter stealth designs. You can check those out in a different thread I posted.

It’s never too late. Considering “things” are starting to be fiddled with in Spvp, there is no reason why wvw can’t be placed under the microscope either. In case you missed this recent post by Gaile…

“Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

Recharge
Damage multipliers
Healing multipliers
Number of conditions/boons applied
Duration of conditions/boons applied
Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Its not too late, it would just necessitate that the classes whose mechanics are being changed would get an entire redesign instead of just a few skill numbers being tweaked.

Swagger.1459:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Well, city of heroes had some great stealth and counter stealth designs. You can check those out in a different thread I posted.

It’s never too late. Considering “things” are starting to be fiddled with in Spvp, there is no reason why wvw can’t be placed under the microscope either. In case you missed this recent post by Gaile…

“Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

Recharge
Damage multipliers
Healing multipliers
Number of conditions/boons applied
Duration of conditions/boons applied
Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Seems you missed a key part of that message you keep touting. And does it state anywhere in there that they are doing redesigns? No, no it does not.

Again if you want a gamemode that has no Build diversity and limited stats then play sPvP, where you get all that you asked for.

And if they redesign stealth they will have to redesign at a minimum two classes and tweak another two that have access to stealth but not being reliant upon it, which is more work than anything previously Anet has shown they would ever do. And if they change Stealth based on your suggestions I have seen touted then what is the compensation since stealth was designed with the two main classes having access to it instead of having all the passives and sustain that other classes got instead. Are they to buff other defensive options for those two classes or are they to nerf the overbearing sustain and passsive defense of the other classes?

See there is a lot more work involved besides the two classes being complained about by OP, since nothing in this game is in a vacuum it is all relative to something else in game.

And still no answer for the question I posed to you Swagger? I thought this thread was all about the spirit of debate, discussion and objectivity?

My posts have been removed
Well
Tl;DR :
the mesmer ran pure class (no defensives traits) and used 3 shatters + 2 utilies (both of them are stunbreak) + elite + 2 skills on GS + 1 skill en sw/sh so about half of his skill bar to do that damage that CAN be countered by proper battlefield awareness/dodging/build (OP was playing druid so i suggest the Protective Ward trait which would have cut the damage taken from shatter from an half and the rest by about 25%)
the thief wasn’t pure glass since he ran accro (i suspect a d/p staff thief) and the 10k damage on the backstab make me think more of a marauder/valky than a full zerker BUT the fight lasted for about 2,75 seconds (2PI proc = 2s delay + dodge delay = 0,75s) where you see apart the initial spike, that OP only took AA and the well know and should be dodged bound + steal combo without defending himself (we see no dodge nor OP went to shroud) and IN a teamfight so nobody helped him (and nobody on the opposite team tried to assist the thief but that’s an another question) so that’s clearly a L2P situation.

Then the questions by OP :
1) Yoy say it’s too high but we don’t have your limit. What is too high ? 10k dps (the thief exemple) seems fine for me but that’s just me. What is your number (let’s say peak damage on 1second on a 2,7k armor target) ?
2) I do think that since people have managed to deal with stealth since launch with battlefield awareness + proper cooldown rotations (aka stealth has a counterplay) and that stealth costs ressources (cooldowns for mesmer/druid/engie and initiative or cooldown for thief), that stealth is fine. I’m more annoyed by stealth camping than an constant in/out with pressure.
3) I still don’t know what “checks and balances” of non-thief classess are so i can’t respond. But thief main damage is AA, spamming anything else (even vault / apart unload or cluster bomb) result in lower dps. The devs designed the weapon skills to prevent the equation initiative = damage but initative = burst (HeartSeeker/Vault) or utility (HeadShot/Dust Strike) or defense (BlackPowder/Debilitating Arc). But please elaborate.
4) It’s 1 & 2 combined so i don’t have anything else to say.
5) A quick skill have a quick animation, if a skill has a 0,25s cast time the animation should take 0,25s (+ aftercast). The very existence of multi-skill burst is especially that skills used are instant or very low cast time so they will all have quick or instant animations. You are basicly asking to remove quick cast skill ? Or you want better tell on the same span of time ? Because you got 0,25s to react whatever the tell is the right hand going up or the whole body glowing red (exemples just made up).

As a general thought, you posted 2 facts (damage you took) and then you say : burst is a problem, stealth is a problem. That’s not how balancing works. Balance is achieved when using something can be countered by the use of something that is on the same scall of availability. It’s not because you don’t use the counter that the first thing is unbalanced.

OriOri.8724:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Its not too late, it would just necessitate that the classes whose mechanics are being changed would get an entire redesign instead of just a few skill numbers being tweaked.

With the tech they can fiddle with some nobs on problematic things quickly. Yes, bigger changes take time, but it’s completely possible. Seeing that other games have redisgned “things”… overhauled their classes… and have been capable of maintaining a more consistent class balancing act, none of what I’m talking about is out of the realm of possibility. Anet is more than capable… In fact, with the level of creativity this team has, I’m 1000% sure gw2 could be one of the top mmos out there for profession, skill and combat designs. I say that because there is talent under the roof and the base foundation of “things” is really good. Just need some tlc. Besides, MO talked about taking balance and such seriously last year, and I have full faith they can deliver.

Swagger.1459:

…There are a number of “break from base” designs that may have been interesting profession and skill design concepts at launch, but certain “things” that break from core designs are doing harm to your competitive players vs other players game modes.

It’s time to tackle some problematic issues, like these, that are constantly brought up over the course of 4 years. Start changing some values, like you are starting to do for spvp, then give your balance team the proper person power and resources to take a fresh look at professions, skills and combat designs.

WvW deserves, and needs, to have professions and skills balanced according to players against other players combat, not mirrored balance according to AI pve raids and pve content.

I read through most of the responses yesterday in your previous thread. First, that last point you made is in my mind the most important. You are really just providing examples of situations where WvW should have separate balance. It also shows that professions aren’t balanced against each other in a 1v1 scenario. Which is pretty normal across most MMO games I have played.

The challenge is if there are counters to a build or certain play style, it is unlikely to expect Anet is going to change the design. Tweaking modifiers and coefficients will help but really I think you’d be better served for a design change. That is a much bigger ask and also takes a lot more energy to solve. Probably a few mistakes along the way too.

Stealth is always going to be an issue. Coming from the perspective of other games with actual perma stealth, I think GW2 does a better job around that mechanic. Sure, there are times when you will get a big burst in a short window. I guess I just don’t see the issue. There are times I get completely destroyed in a few hits, when that happens I’m generally not paying attention. Or I’m running glass also. I don’t see any of the builds as being godlike or not possible to run against.

Sure, we could argue there are skills which are tuned too high. If counter play exists, I’m not certain there is a strong story here.

ich.7086:

My posts have been removed
Well
Tl;DR :
the mesmer ran pure class (no defensives traits) and used 3 shatters + 2 utilies (both of them are stunbreak) + elite + 2 skills on GS + 1 skill en sw/sh so about half of his skill bar to do that damage that CAN be countered by proper battlefield awareness/dodging/build (OP was playing druid so i suggest the Protective Ward trait which would have cut the damage taken from shatter from an half and the rest by about 25%)
the thief wasn’t pure glass since he ran accro (i suspect a d/p staff thief) and the 10k damage on the backstab make me think more of a marauder/valky than a full zerker BUT the fight lasted for about 2,75 seconds (2PI proc = 2s delay + dodge delay = 0,75s) where you see apart the initial spike, that OP only took AA and the well know and should be dodged bound + steal combo without defending himself (we see no dodge nor OP went to shroud) and IN a teamfight so nobody helped him (and nobody on the opposite team tried to assist the thief but that’s an another question) so that’s clearly a L2P situation.

Then the questions by OP :
1) Yoy say it’s too high but we don’t have your limit. What is too high ? 10k dps (the thief exemple) seems fine for me but that’s just me. What is your number (let’s say peak damage on 1second on a 2,7k armor target) ?
2) I do think that since people have managed to deal with stealth since launch with battlefield awareness + proper cooldown rotations (aka stealth has a counterplay) and that stealth costs ressources (cooldowns for mesmer/druid/engie and initiative or cooldown for thief), that stealth is fine. I’m more annoyed by stealth camping than an constant in/out with pressure.
3) I still don’t know what “checks and balances” of non-thief classess are so i can’t respond. But thief main damage is AA, spamming anything else (even vault / apart unload or cluster bomb) result in lower dps. The devs designed the weapon skills to prevent the equation initiative = damage but initative = burst (HeartSeeker/Vault) or utility (HeadShot/Dust Strike) or defense (BlackPowder/Debilitating Arc). But please elaborate.
4) It’s 1 & 2 combined so i don’t have anything else to say.
5) A quick skill have a quick animation, if a skill has a 0,25s cast time the animation should take 0,25s (+ aftercast). The very existence of multi-skill burst is especially that skills used are instant or very low cast time so they will all have quick or instant animations. You are basicly asking to remove quick cast skill ? Or you want better tell on the same span of time ? Because you got 0,25s to react whatever the tell is the right hand going up or the whole body glowing red (exemples just made up).

As a general thought, you posted 2 facts (damage you took) and then you say : burst is a problem, stealth is a problem. That’s not how balancing works. Balance is achieved when using something can be countered by the use of something that is on the same scall of availability. It’s not because you don’t use the counter that the first thing is unbalanced.

Question how was the Thief running Acro? I would love your insight into that since there is absolutely nothing in Acro that would show in the combat log. Unless you are basing that off of the lack of Mug in the Combat Log which can be explained a few ways, Mug damage can be “obstructed” by air yet still apply Sleight of Hand as weird as that sounds. But

I have proven how it achieved the numbers in the screenshot to do that amount of damage would require Deadly Arts, Trickery and Daredevil and we know for a fact Daredevil was used due to Bound in the combat log.

Now if he was running Valk Berserker I am very impressed since the Thief would be giving up a lot of Crit Chance yet based on the Screenshot the Thief was dealing a lot of Crits in high succession which is why I based on a pure Berserker build and on the equation I posted above if yo remove the one 1.1 modifier from Exposed Weakness the Damage at Max weapon damage Drops significantly lower down to 9,596.22 which which is a 790 damage drop in a maxed out Crit.

Swagger.1459:

OriOri.8724:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Its not too late, it would just necessitate that the classes whose mechanics are being changed would get an entire redesign instead of just a few skill numbers being tweaked.

With the tech they can fiddle with some nobs on problematic things quickly. Yes, bigger changes take time, but it’s completely possible. Seeing that other games have redisgned “things”… overhauled their classes… and have been capable of maintaining a more consistent class balancing act, none of what I’m talking about is out of the realm of possibility. Anet is more than capable… In fact, with the level of creativity this team has, I’m 1000% sure gw2 could be one of the top mmos out there for profession, skill and combat designs. I say that because there is talent under the roof and the base foundation of “things” is really good. Just need some tlc. Besides, MO talked about taking balance and such seriously last year, and I have full faith they can deliver.

Perhaps the more difficult issue is talking about balance in WvW which is really more of an open world setting. I just fear giving up what build diversity we have now in exchange for more balance.

And I agree, I still believe that GW2 has a good combat system that could be great. I’ve also noticed that EU players have different builds than what I saw in NA servers. Neither is bad or good but there is certainly a difference in how the groups run.

Clownmug.8357:

Sorry to go off topic, but how does entering shroud deal 10k damage? I looked up the build, and see Spiteful Shroud is used, but I don’t see how that can get up to 10k even with every possible damage modifier. Is this one of those weird instances where the tooltip is completely wrong?

1) you run the meta power build in WvW full zerk gear + 10%dmg. food + sharpening stone

2) keep in mind that you deal more damage the longer the fight lasts as you build up 25 might stacks and inflict a lot of vulnerability over time

3) you run hyromancy and air on you current weaponset

4) your burst brings the target to less than 50% health (time it accordingly!)

5) you have traited Death Perception (100% crit chance in Shroud)

Entering shroud (counting as a weapon swap and will proc sigills) enables the following things:

Spiteful Spirit: 2,5 -3,5K (one boon corrupt)
Hydromancy Sigill: 2,5 – 3,5K
Air Sigill: 1 – 1,5K
Chilling Nova: 2,5 – 4K
Chill of Death: 2 (no boon) – 5K (3 boons)

Numbers are for full zerk opponents of course and decrease with opponents toughness gear. Staff zerg eles and zerk thieves can be oneshotted if they ’ve 3 boons due to their low health pool.

It’s pretty funny. I run this setup in our 3 to 5 man roaming group and stay behind at the first few seconds of the fight. Then I run right into and press F1 -> Shroud4 – this ends in a massacre!

For solo roaming I would at least run 2,5K armor to feel more comfortable. This decreases your damage by about 25%.

I don’t think it’s too off topic since the OP is running necro too and seems not to have any clue how deadly the class can be. In WvW I ’ve met hundreds of scrappers running towards me and going for “dwarf mode” (25% health) in less than 2 seconds.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Swagger.1459:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Well, city of heroes had some great stealth and counter stealth designs. You can check those out in a different thread I posted.

It’s never too late. Considering “things” are starting to be fiddled with in Spvp, there is no reason why wvw can’t be placed under the microscope either. In case you missed this recent post by Gaile…

“Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.

Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

Recharge
Damage multipliers
Healing multipliers
Number of conditions/boons applied
Duration of conditions/boons applied
Skill cost (energy and initiative)

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.

Now on to the changes! Note that all changes listed are global changes except for those that are designated as “PvP only.”

Seems you missed a key part of that message you keep touting. And does it state anywhere in there that they are doing redesigns? No, no it does not.

Again if you want a gamemode that has no Build diversity and limited stats then play sPvP, where you get all that you asked for.

And if they redesign stealth they will have to redesign at a minimum two classes and tweak another two that have access to stealth but not being reliant upon it, which is more work than anything previously Anet has shown they would ever do. And if they change Stealth based on your suggestions I have seen touted then what is the compensation since stealth was designed with the two main classes having access to it instead of having all the passives and sustain that other classes got instead. Are they to buff other defensive options for those two classes or are they to nerf the overbearing sustain and passsive defense of the other classes?

See there is a lot more work involved besides the two classes being complained about by OP, since nothing in this game is in a vacuum it is all relative to something else in game.

And still no answer for the question I posed to you Swagger? I thought this thread was all about the spirit of debate, discussion and objectivity?

+1 Agrees with Svarty + BlaqueFyre

The only logical end for this kind of discussion is PVP system. It’s the only way they will ever have the resources to deal with it. ANet considers this as “Hey I got a small dent in my car, and it will look ugly if you just fix that and paint on top of it, so give me a new car!”.

Why do you all still humor him? When he once again loses the argument he is just going to delete the thread again.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Why do you all still humor him? When he once again loses the argument he is just going to delete the thread again.

Same reason I gank tryhards at their nnc.
Bordism.

Justine.6351:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Why do you all still humor him? When he once again loses the argument he is just going to delete the thread again.

Same reason I gank tryhards at their nnc.
Bordism.

^this , plus it’s fun to have “logical discussions”

KrHome.1920:

Clownmug.8357:

Sorry to go off topic, but how does entering shroud deal 10k damage? I looked up the build, and see Spiteful Shroud is used, but I don’t see how that can get up to 10k even with every possible damage modifier. Is this one of those weird instances where the tooltip is completely wrong?

1) you run the meta power build in WvW full zerk gear + 10%dmg. food + sharpening stone

2) keep in mind that you deal more damage the longer the fight lasts as you build up 25 might stacks and inflict a lot of vulnerability over time

3) you run hyromancy and air on you current weaponset

4) your burst brings the target to less than 50% health (time it accordingly!)

5) you have traited Death Perception (100% crit chance in Shroud)

Entering shroud (counting as a weapon swap and will proc sigills) enables the following things:

Spiteful Spirit: 2,5 -3,5K (one boon corrupt)
Hydromancy Sigill: 2,5 – 3,5K
Air Sigill: 1 – 1,5K
Chilling Nova: 2,5 – 4K
Chill of Death: 2 (no boon) – 5K (3 boons)

Numbers are for full zerk opponents of course and decrease with opponents toughness gear. Staff zerg eles and zerk thieves can be oneshotted if they ’ve 3 boons due to their low health pool.

It’s pretty funny. I run this setup in our 3 to 5 man roaming group and stay behind at the first few seconds of the fight. Then I run right into and press F1 -> Shroud4 – this ends in a massacre!

For solo roaming I would at least run 2,5K armor to feel more comfortable. This decreases your damage by about 25%.

I don’t think it’s too off topic since the OP is running necro too and seems not to have any clue how deadly the class can be. In WvW I ’ve met hundreds of scrappers running towards me and going for “dwarf mode” (25% health) in less than 2 seconds.

Ok, I see now what you meant. With all those things proccing with Spiteful Spirit, that can very easily add up to 10k. Thank you for the answer. I might try that build some time.

Swagger.1459:

OriOri.8724:

Svarty.8019:

Swagger.1459:

2. Stealth is too advantageous and too forgiving and too unbalanced.

• Stealth has never been implemented well in any game ever

• Judging by alterations made since release, I believe it’s far too late for Anet to make alterations to key class mechanics

• Our only option is to hope that future games either have zero stealth or a radically improved version

Its not too late, it would just necessitate that the classes whose mechanics are being changed would get an entire redesign instead of just a few skill numbers being tweaked.

With the tech they can fiddle with some nobs on problematic things quickly. Yes, bigger changes take time, but it’s completely possible. Seeing that other games have redisgned “things”… overhauled their classes… and have been capable of maintaining a more consistent class balancing act, none of what I’m talking about is out of the realm of possibility. Anet is more than capable… In fact, with the level of creativity this team has, I’m 1000% sure gw2 could be one of the top mmos out there for profession, skill and combat designs. I say that because there is talent under the roof and the base foundation of “things” is really good. Just need some tlc. Besides, MO talked about taking balance and such seriously last year, and I have full faith they can deliver.

Oh I know they can, and I hope that they will. Thief and mesmer in particular are two classes that I want to see redesigned. I don’t however think that balancing is actually a priority for ANet though, at least not right now. If it were we would be both receiving more balance patches and larger, more comprehensive balance patches. Instead we get 3-4 a year, which don’t even necessarily touch every single class in the game. To me that isn’t taking balance seriously, its just balancing a single build, 2 at most, for every class. And considering the very limited scope of their balancing, they aren’t doing that good of a job at it either.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Question how was the Thief running Acro? I would love your insight into that since there is absolutely nothing in Acro that would show in the combat log. Unless you are basing that off of the lack of Mug in the Combat Log which can be explained a few ways, Mug damage can be “obstructed” by air yet still apply Sleight of Hand as weird as that sounds. But

I have proven how it achieved the numbers in the screenshot to do that amount of damage would require Deadly Arts, Trickery and Daredevil and we know for a fact Daredevil was used due to Bound in the combat log.

Now if he was running Valk Berserker I am very impressed since the Thief would be giving up a lot of Crit Chance yet based on the Screenshot the Thief was dealing a lot of Crits in high succession which is why I based on a pure Berserker build and on the equation I posted above if yo remove the one 1.1 modifier from Exposed Weakness the Damage at Max weapon damage Drops significantly lower down to 9,596.22 which which is a 790 damage drop in a maxed out Crit.

Tbh i supposed he wasn’t full zerk because AA damage looked pretty low but let’s assume full zerk.

Ascended Dagger = 1030 weapon coefficient at most
BackStab coefficient = 2,4
OP armor = 2k7
Damage on crit = Power * skill coeff * weapon coeff * mult * crit bonus / armor
skill coeff * weapon coeff / armor = 0.916 (rounding)
so to do a crit backstab at 10386 we must have power * mult * crit bonus = 11339
So bound + scholar runes + trickery bonus + havoc mastery + seaweed + force sigil (i don’t see any air or fire proc so i assume force + bloodlust) = 1,8
So power * crit bonus = 6300
I have managed to go 6560 (see here) without the DA trait line so it’s possible (but very unlikely).

But since you are so close yeah you have to be full zerk for pump that damage. If you are running DA you can switch your armor to marauder (here).

So yeah my bad, either the thief is running full zerk or DA with marauder armor.

NB : i’m not accounting any vuln stack on necro or might stack on the thief and you can go without DA and with only marauder weapon and still pump that damage but the vitality gain is so bad (100hp) that’s it’s not worth it.

Criticism: You are looking at this wrong and narrow moved imo. I agree with others that this past screams “idk what I’m doing or how things work, and everyone should play the same play style”. You want there to be no bust classes so criticism: everyone is essentially re-skinned warrior/guardian? Also just because your build can’t defeat 100% of all other builds doesn’t mean you should complain to nerf everyone else until it does. Esp since if you are quick to dodge or specced to survive those bursts, it’s usually an easy kill. I eat burst thieves for lunch on my MM necro, and even the evading staff thieves that kill my minions will die to me usually.

Construction: some classes should be sustain. Some should be bursty. Is the large burst you saw a bit excessive? Probably. But it’s not an issue with the class, but instead the equipment. 1) Anet seems to think that increasing stats affects all stats equally when it doesn’t. Even still most ppl bring those foods and upgrades that increase damage, not defense, then complain when they die and it’s hilarious. Either way, imo, Anet should get rid of food and the upgrades that proc +stat (ie might) so that stats are closer in line with pvp, where it seems a bit more balanced in that respect (being crazy high spikes, even though you could prob bring defensive ones to counter, instead of more damage ones). This would being the numbers to a bit more normal level. But keep in mind you may still get bursted and that’s how it should be.

hello all… and first of all Swagger, I read a lot of your posts and found them always interesting and intelligent… and explained well (not like me that i rage i must learn)

to be honest, I know the feeling of some classes (on top thiefs-mesmers-warrior) ista bursts of 2-3k hits and for 5-10 times in less than 10-15s…

i wouldnt speak of armor and vitality.
the only rule that Wvwers knew was “3k armor is a must in wvw” otherwise at your risk if less… (well 2,8-2,9k-3k)

after the rework of traits and with all new stats combination-jewels-armor-weapons and new runes with the Elite spec in the middle, now 3k armor is useless.

all combined with those bursts in 10s of 6-8 skills in a row

personally when i see on me and from other players those numbers, comes to mind as engi when 3 years ago was using dual pistol and rampage armor-jewels, and had like 2,3k armor… and 17-18k vitality…)

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

1. Has there EVER been an update where a skill has been split with (WvW only) added?

I know there’s been several “X doesn’t work in WvW” plus several bug fixes, mesmer fall trait and necro door melt trait which were being abused in WvW. But does anyone ever recall a skill split specifically for WvW.

You could say that reducing the max number of players affected by certain skills being set to 5 was for WvW only, but it wasn’t split specifically for WvW or the change didn’t really affect PvP or PvE.

2. If you wanted to split skills for WvW, who would you talk to? The PvE skills balance team? The PvP skills balance team? The WvW skills balance team? Is there even a WvW skills balance team? Has the skills balance team ever discussed a skill on the WvW forums?

The recent epidemic thread has four pages and no red posts? Hello? Anybody out there?

3. If you did want to split a skill just for WvW, which skills would you look at?

OMG OP @swagger you are correct, burst too OP. Just look at this https://youtu.be/PvEUHnZsdq4
and other vids on his channel. Thief needs a nerf or tone down.

Revs on the other hand, perfectly balanced!

Asahi.1487:

OMG OP @swagger you are correct, burst too OP. Just look at this https://youtu.be/PvEUHnZsdq4
and other vids on his channel. Thief needs a nerf or tone down.

Revs on the other hand, perfectly balanced!

those guardians drop like…. scizor on a very weak and thin paper….

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Damage Modifiers are the real culprit here. They are multiplicative meaning they amplify each other. No big hitter that I know of can pull off massive shots without them. They should have been additive or better yet removed and replaced with straight power additions.

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

Which is what is rolling in sPvP for better or worse.

Straegen.2938:

Damage Modifiers are the real culprit here. They are multiplicative meaning they amplify each other. No big hitter that I know of can pull off massive shots without them. They should have been additive or better yet removed and replaced with straight power additions.

ye. right on.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Guardian with that armor dies in 2 – 3 seconds lol…. since mace shield does no damage XD, and people still hit like a truck..

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Guardian with that armor dies in 2 – 3 seconds lol…. since mace shield does no damage XD, and people still hit like a truck..

I ran with a 4k armor 20k hp guard in wvw once, it was hilarious. Zerg surfing at its best.

I’m glad my build is OP enough for someone to complain about it in WvW forum.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Guardian with that armor dies in 2 – 3 seconds lol…. since mace shield does no damage XD, and people still hit like a truck..

I ran with a 4k armor 20k hp guard in wvw once, it was hilarious. Zerg surfing at its best.

lucky, i get hall the hate… CC, boons removed , 4 – 5 CoR straight the face while i cant see the animation due the quantity of massive red fields in the floor.. :\ still mange to survide in zerg its vary rare to die due writ of persistence, but small scale with that build it is horrible, some skills will stil crit over 8k with those stats w/o vulnerability.

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Guardian with that armor dies in 2 – 3 seconds lol…. since mace shield does no damage XD, and people still hit like a truck..

I ran with a 4k armor 20k hp guard in wvw once, it was hilarious. Zerg surfing at its best.

lucky, i get hall the hate… CC, boons removed , 4 – 5 CoR straint in the face while i cant see the animation due the quantity of massive red fields in the floor.. :\

this was before hot.
go figure EH lol

Stand The Wall.6987:

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Aeolus.3615:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Jacion.6302:

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

here ya go bro 5k armor warrior autoproc bossmode

Trade in 800 of that armor (3300, but could trade 600 for 3500, diminishing returns after 3500) and get that base HP up for condi defense. You can easily keep that attack power while having 3300 armor and with bl map buffs 29k HP.

heresy
its 5k
FIVE KAY
how are you going to be a boss with your measly 4.3k, hmm?

Guardian with that armor dies in 2 – 3 seconds lol…. since mace shield does no damage XD, and people still hit like a truck..

I ran with a 4k armor 20k hp guard in wvw once, it was hilarious. Zerg surfing at its best.

lucky, i get hall the hate… CC, boons removed , 4 – 5 CoR straint in the face while i cant see the animation due the quantity of massive red fields in the floor.. :\

this was before hot.
go figure EH lol

oh before hot i was a wall, needed to get spiked/ganked if i maneged ot block the high damage skills, now alot of stuff does alot of damage while i cant response back besides blokc block, dodge, shout to remove contions, block to remove condition and small heal, mace 1, mace 2, block to remove more condition ,mace 1, down…REKT…

Even RW, shelter, f3 with stability are getting easilly interrupted at the inital second while under effect(not interrupted in the cast process), when that happens… rekt due tons of CC and cant use the skills.

Straegen.2938:

Damage Modifiers are the real culprit here. They are multiplicative meaning they amplify each other. No big hitter that I know of can pull off massive shots without them. They should have been additive or better yet removed and replaced with straight power additions.

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

Which is what is rolling in sPvP for better or worse.

I don’t agree because additive scaling or simply raw numbers makes optimization and the emergence of overpowered abilities and skills too strict and too confined. This is the reason why bunker boon builds have dominated PvP forever, and why boons are cited as being overpowered; a build needs to have no direct synergy while it maintains a disproportionately advantageous gain when explicitly not stacking into a stat or focusing around a given strategy or concept. In terms of trying to make the game more diverse and more difficult to optimize, many multiplicative modifiers is the way to go.

More appropriate is that these modifiers not be so easily-achieved or achieved without sacrifice like they are with most of the new elites; Daredevil for example provides a .1 and a .07 modifier on top of another potential .1 modifier which makes it almost as potent as a fully-maxed-damage Crit Strikes trait allocation while still pushing out an extra evade, endurance on steal, and a very strong condition cleanse. Berserker does similar; the list goes on. In the case of other professions (I went through every other profession in the other thread juxtaposing their superior burst options on similar-or-effectively-lower cooldowns), most of their numbers are typically gained from just having higher coefficients and/or the capacity to stack 25 might easily (a static bonus) which makes them hit just as hard or harder with typically more in-build safety, since they no longer need to aim for stacking six to ten traits of small modifiers to stack to get big damage (like necro/reaper and ranger).

If the amount of safe or even punishment-free damage (Like Defy Pain and other auto-defense procs or sustained defenses) was reduced, I think we’d be in a better game-state, since dealing such big burst would mandate build sacrifices and provide no covering for misplays or freebies to get the damage in.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t agree because additive scaling or simply raw numbers makes optimization and the emergence of overpowered abilities and skills too strict and too confined.

Blowing up players in a second or two creates a very unfriendly environment for new and casual players which are necessary for the long term health of WvW. In most sPvP encounters there is a back and forth that allows a newer player to learn. Most of the time new WvW players are dead before they know a fight started with little time to learn and adapt.

Unfortunately, the damage modifiers have become an escalation race that has limited diversity. Meta builds mostly have to go bunker, condi or push heavy into damage multipliers. Those players not running meta or pre-meta typically come on the forums and complain about how OP XYZ is or quit out of frustration.