Guild Wars 2

./forumfixbug

Straegen.2938:

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t agree because additive scaling or simply raw numbers makes optimization and the emergence of overpowered abilities and skills too strict and too confined.

Blowing up players in a second or two creates a very unfriendly environment for new and casual players which are necessary for the long term health of WvW. In most sPvP encounters there is a back and forth that allows a newer player to learn. Most of the time new WvW players are dead before they know a fight started with little time to learn and adapt.

Unfortunately, the damage modifiers have become an escalation race that has limited diversity. Meta builds mostly have to go bunker, condi or push heavy into damage multipliers. Those players not running meta or pre-meta typically come on the forums and complain about how OP XYZ is or quit out of frustration.

Iirc, Deceiver is in the game industry… These bits of wisdom Streagen has brought up should be common knowledge for developers, and also for objective players who take competitive gameplay more seriously.

When GW (launched 2005) was around I was a pvper in City of Heroes (launched 2004) for around 5 years. It was a fast paced twitch based game, moment and positioning was a thing (when in GW you couldn’t even jump…), there were a ton of diverse roles to play… and this was before Twitch was around and ESL became popular…

Having played thousands of hours in zone pvp areas and arena matches it’s easy to see things that are off here… By “off” I mean a lot of things, but to give a statement that summarizes… The professions and skills in this game were built for pve and the devs have shoved all of those designs into pvp and wvw modes. Hence why I only spent 200 matches total in Spvp since launch and now taken to wvw more over the past year mostly out of boredom. Some awesome pve and wvw guildies are the main reason why I still play GW2 at all.

The anet devs have created a really great game at the core and have a lot of interesting designs, but their weak points are profession development and maintenance, and response time to problematic issues. Lack of open communication, outside of the super secret testers, is weak too, and that’s another reason why we see these lower quality and out of touch with gameplay profession balancing patch notes.

Last year, when Colin left, MO seemed to show some desire to improve wvw, so I’m hoping that he can start to deliver and not let portions of the gamebase down. The team is way more than capable of improving things, they just have to get organized and take all of their experiences over the past 4 launch years seriously and actually do something…

Edit- and there is not any perfect game, but the differences in effort to take core gameplay development seriously is night and day between anet and other big gaming studios.

I am so flattered that you took the time to make a thread about Me and Aria. My build will be available soon enough. Just want to one shot you QQ some more, and get some more footage

I created the build to have the strength and power of a signet build, minus all the signets, and signet traits.. Soon enough it’ll be up.

Until then see you on the Battleground o/

Me 1 shotting Koolgai Smurf after jumping on a friends body. #2muchsawce

-AikijinX

Swagger.1459:

Straegen.2938:

Blowing up players in a second or two creates a very unfriendly environment for new and casual players which are necessary for the long term health of WvW. In most sPvP encounters there is a back and forth that allows a newer player to learn. Most of the time new WvW players are dead before they know a fight started with little time to learn and adapt.

Unfortunately, the damage modifiers have become an escalation race that has limited diversity. Meta builds mostly have to go bunker, condi or push heavy into damage multipliers. Those players not running meta or pre-meta typically come on the forums and complain about how OP XYZ is or quit out of frustration.

Iirc, Deceiver is in the game industry… These bits of wisdom Streagen has brought up should be common knowledge for developers, and also for objective players who take competitive gameplay more seriously.

When GW (launched 2005) was around I was a pvper in City of Heroes (launched 2004) for around 5 years. It was a fast paced twitch based game, moment and positioning was a thing (when in GW you couldn’t even jump…), there were a ton of diverse roles to play… and this was before Twitch was around and ESL became popular…

Having played thousands of hours in zone pvp areas and arena matches it’s easy to see things that are off here… By “off” I mean a lot of things, but to give a statement that summarizes… The professions and skills in this game were built for pve and the devs have shoved all of those designs into pvp and wvw modes. Hence why I only spent 200 matches total in Spvp since launch and now taken to wvw more over the past year mostly out of boredom. Some awesome pve and wvw guildies are the main reason why I still play GW2 at all.

The anet devs have created a really great game at the core and have a lot of interesting designs, but their weak points are profession development and maintenance, and response time to problematic issues. Lack of open communication, outside of the super secret testers, is weak too, and that’s another reason why we see these lower quality and out of touch with gameplay profession balancing patch notes.

Last year, when Colin left, MO seemed to show some desire to improve wvw, so I’m hoping that he can start to deliver and not let portions of the gamebase down. The team is way more than capable of improving things, they just have to get organized and take all of their experiences over the past 4 launch years seriously and actually do something…

Edit- and there is not any perfect game, but the differences in effort to take core gameplay development seriously is night and day between anet and other big gaming studios.

I’m going to just ignore the smear, considering I didn’t even work in the development-side of the game I worked on, because at that point in my life I was still a teenager working across the country for a publisher whose actual developers were halfway across the planet.

On topic, I’m not really sure how dying quickly removes the competitive nature from a game considering often times the most competitive games (Various FPS titles, League, DotA, etc.) often feature content and promote quick player deaths. I think you’re confusing dying instantly without any capacity to retaliate like in P2W games versus dying instantly because your opponent is playing an all-in build, that dies just as fast and often will struggle or lose if the initial bomb is negated. Frankly, if a new player dies quickly and doesn’t understand or care to learn why, then I don’t really think there’s any validity in even bringing up the competitive scene since such a player would never and should never get there or be there to begin with. Not to mention, what the OP cites isn’t even that fast when compared to most other MMO’s. The screenshots dictate there was plenty of opportunity to react, especially given the professions he plays, at least enough to drive away or pressure the opposing player.

(Continued below)

Really, you can quite obviously see that due to the inherent nature of safe damage and lack of build sacrifices made, the quality of the WvW experience has declined. Havoc and small-scale is dead because the quality of fights is just un-fun, and yet, for several years, it was wildly successful when people had even more damage and less defense in general, when killing even faster was more viable.

Further, and back to what I originally came to say, the nature of the argument of removing multiplicative modifiers is strictly not mathematically sound; all-rounder and unfocused builds gain objectively better performance than focused ones in this scenario, which would reduce build diversity inherently, and the optima would be more-easily calculated and much more rigid since degrees of “better-ness” start reaching what can only be defined as looking for the method of reducing diminishing performance returns when making alternative selections in different areas of one’s build. This enforces a no-rotational metagame or a strict class hierarchy that would only be resolved through developer interference with profession buffs and nerfs every so often, and would simply cause a rotation of what’s objectively optimal in every scenario versus providing some degree of a spectrum of effective build and play decision yields given a tolerance. I think it’s safe to say that professional Rock Paper Scissors doesn’t exist for good reason, because this is what ends up happening, which makes PvP in general more deterministic and less competitive.

The power creep of three full trait lines, power creep on gear and builds without sacrifice that provide simply more stats and more useful stats (Marauder gear, for example, buffing health between 25 to 50% with precision gains and only a 9% additive damage loss), combined with an excess of safe damage is what breaks competitive PvP environments and kills diversity. Reducing the capacity to deal damage will not make the game more competitive, nor will it increase the interest in the competitive formats from new players when they quickly come to recognize that there exists what could only be defined as no potential allowance for build diversity, rather than the result of an imbalanced game or strictly-too-powerful optima when compared to the rest of the game, which is what we’re seeing now.

Really, though, this thread shouldn’t exist; the previous version was just as pertinent to the topic (moreso now since it’s been derailed into Colin leaving GW2 and the “future” (lol) of WvW/PvP) has nothing to do with the discussion of the OP). I get there was huge backlash and OP wanted to hide the criticism, but it honestly reduces your credibility in the eyes of many.

@Aij, I’ve probably already concluded the build you’re likely using before lol. I worked out optimizations for Daredevil when it released to match signet damage with substantially better utility, and this is exactly what I mean by free damage. I’m a signet core thief loyalist, but what you’ve done only reinforces my point in that there are currently way too many easy ways to skirt the penalties that used to come along with playing for burst damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

Really, you can quite obviously see that due to the inherent nature of safe damage and lack of build sacrifices made, the quality of the WvW experience has declined. Havoc and small-scale is dead because the quality of fights is just un-fun, and yet, for several years, it was wildly successful when people had even more damage and less defense in general, when killing even faster was more viable.

Further, and back to what I originally came to say, the nature of the argument of removing multiplicative modifiers is strictly not mathematically sound; all-rounder and unfocused builds gain objectively better performance than focused ones in this scenario, which would reduce build diversity inherently, and the optima would be more-easily calculated and much more rigid since degrees of “better-ness” start reaching what can only be defined as looking for the method of reducing diminishing performance returns when making alternative selections in different areas of one’s build. This enforces a no-rotational metagame or a strict class hierarchy that would only be resolved through developer interference with profession buffs and nerfs every so often, and would simply cause a rotation of what’s objectively optimal in every scenario versus providing some degree of a spectrum of effective build and play decision yields given a tolerance. I think it’s safe to say that professional Rock Paper Scissors doesn’t exist for good reason, because this is what ends up happening, which makes PvP in general more deterministic and less competitive.

The power creep of three full trait lines, power creep on gear and builds without sacrifice that provide simply more stats and more useful stats (Marauder gear, for example, buffing health between 25 to 50% with precision gains and only a 9% additive damage loss), combined with an excess of safe damage is what breaks competitive PvP environments and kills diversity. Reducing the capacity to deal damage will not make the game more competitive, nor will it increase the interest in the competitive formats from new players when they quickly come to recognize that there exists what could only be defined as no potential allowance for build diversity, rather than the result of an imbalanced game or strictly-too-powerful optima when compared to the rest of the game, which is what we’re seeing now.

Really, though, this thread shouldn’t exist; the previous version was just as pertinent to the topic (moreso now since it’s been derailed into Colin leaving GW2 and the “future” (lol) of WvW/PvP) has nothing to do with the discussion of the OP). I get there was huge backlash and OP wanted to hide the criticism, but it honestly reduces your credibility in the eyes of many.

@Aij, I’ve probably already concluded the build you’re likely using before lol. I worked out optimizations for Daredevil when it released to match signet damage with substantially better utility, and this is exactly what I mean by free damage. I’m a signet core thief loyalist, but what you’ve done only reinforces my point in that there are currently way too many easy ways to skirt the penalties that used to come along with playing for burst damage.

I’m not sure on which build you concluded on, but the burst build I created relies on multiple components, that I will get into as soon as I make my video Glad to see your still active on the forums Deceiver ^^

All the more likely we’re on the same page unless your screen is intentionally deceptive on your choice of utils

Yea I’m still around, albeit mostly on the boards these days. Glad to see you still running around. Forum PvP’s more interesting than what you find in the game for the most part :P Nothing else has really hooked my interest yet enough to move my foruming habits elsewhere haha.

DeceiverX.8361:

All the more likely we’re on the same page unless your screen is intentionally deceptive on your choice of utils

Yea I’m still around, albeit mostly on the boards these days. Glad to see you still running around. Forum PvP’s more interesting than what you find in the game for the most part :P Nothing else has really hooked my interest yet enough to move my foruming habits elsewhere haha.

Nah haha, all my utilities are as shown. It’ s just funny how everyone is trying to guess “The Thief’s build” (Me) and no one knows what I run. And in the picture it shows i have 16k hp. But If i wanted to i could swap out trinkets at anytime to reach 18k, and still produce relative high backstabs.

the answer still exists from the prior posts “your build clearly needs work” your probably running zerker and getting caught all on your lonesome. Remember if your running a build that works best to assist your team like a zerker staff ele or a bunker heals druid your simply going to lose vs a proper 1v1 built thief or mesmer dont feel bad about it. its unavoidable. if your in a 1v1 build and your getting insta gibbed like that then you need to tweak your build … well overhaul it really.

Here’s another screeny, for luls

1 shotted, full health Teef.

And full health Ele

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Justine.6351:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Why do you all still humor him? When he once again loses the argument he is just going to delete the thread again.

Same reason I gank tryhards at their nnc.
Bordism.

^this , plus it’s fun to have “logical discussions”

Lol, and you put far more effort into it than I do. Props. I enjoy reading your responses because that’s what I would say if I happened to care more. Lead us to a logical forum victory, Blaque!

Straegen.2938:

Damage Modifiers are the real culprit here. They are multiplicative meaning they amplify each other. No big hitter that I know of can pull off massive shots without them. They should have been additive or better yet removed and replaced with straight power additions.

Stand The Wall.6987:

nerf burst
nerf tank
nerfbat loves all

Which is what is rolling in sPvP for better or worse.

That’s totally fine with me, so long as tanky builds are also nerfed. I’ve ran a 1 shot build against a full minstrel ele. Do you know how much % of his health I was able to bring down after landing my full burst? 30%. He was in stone heart for only half of it. I also landed a full burst on many bunker base guards. Not being blocked, but landing critical hits, I was able to only chip away at 20% of his health with my full burst. That is absolutely absurd.

DeceiverX.8361:

On topic, I’m not really sure how dying quickly removes the competitive nature from a game considering often times the most competitive games (Various FPS titles, League, DotA, etc.) often feature content and promote quick player deaths.

FPS and MOBA games are closer to sPvP in design which oddly doesn’t have the power amplification problem because of the gear limits and the number of external power amplifiers.

FPS shooters have small maps, short trips to the action after respawns, a level playing field and typically everyone is equally brittle. A player may die more but they will kill more as well. Overwatch is a good example… a player may be inexperienced but they can still win a fight and improve.

In WvW a typical new player has almost a zero chance to win against an average skilled player in a meta build in WvW much less those that are skilled. Add in gank builds and getting out of a players keep can be a trick for a new fellow.

Try this near 5x multiplier build for an evening:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaWl0MhSnYhTwxJw/ELjFl3AEAHw2GWWd48t37FPA-TlSBQBiU5HAeCAqQDhGOgAL4QBYJ1f0j+AAu/AjUC+gTAQAAEgb2mt5NDcezbezbezzNv5Nv5NvZpAGYnF-w

Durable, decent escape and its opener will easily clock for 5 digits against all but the most hardened opponents. Blocks aren’t typically a problem. Condi pressure is an issue but this is an alpha strike build and has enough removal/health to hit an opponent and get distance. Black Powder/Dodge/Steal/Backstab while at full health for max effect. Reset if it doesn’t land clean… irritating to fight against and outright deadly to almost all players. It will two shot many a build not rocking 3k armor or lacking damage reduction.

There is a Power Mesmer build that hits just as hard.

That build is nothing new and one of the first I came up with. Taobella’s also done it, except with more damage. And still, it doesn’t mean anything. If the point is to suggest dying quickly reduces the competitive nature of a game, we can agree that the argument supporting the claim is null, because those games are strictly more competitive despite enforcing these aspects even more. Not to mention, running from keep to smc takes almost the same amount of time as running from base to outer turrets in league.

And a massive portion of the damage (1.07 * 1.1 * 1.1) comes from Daredevil alone which we’ve already been over multiple times; it’s not about inherent burst but the safety of doing so. DA also provides better combo-burst numbers; Daredevil is better for single-hits and makes play safe enough to make work.

But that’s still a problem fundamental to the Daredevil and the staff. It’s too safe compared to the core game, just like how DH is, and how Scrapper is, how Herald is, how Berserker is, how Druid is, and how Chrono is to their respective core specs. All of these professions can achieve massive burst damage as well.

D/D power core thief for example does plenty more damage in the same amount of time as your proposed staff build (almost double), but I think it’s safe to say D/D power is a trash kit right now played only by loyalists because it’s just way too difficult to pull off successfully without getting instantly annihilated. Why? Because it’s risky and very far from safe, and when your opponent is good, it has massive problems as a consequence.

I’ll still mention that mesmer at its baseline bursts just as hard in a shatter as a CS-built thief, how warrior, ranger, and rev can achieve basically the same (and potentially more) burst damage as this thief and even similar or bigger modifiers (ever see a 40k Maul? I have, 30k even in sPvP), and how inflated the coefficients and might-stacking are on DH and scrapper.

As far as newbies in WvW go, if a new player is upset about the run back, it means he’s far away from his respawn point, and if he is going to run far away from his server’s third roaming alone while not being good at the game… he should be expecting to die, anyways, as it’s just as likely he’ll be getting run over by a blob of 50 people for being in the enemy third and doing anything substantial, anyways.

And if he’s being ganked at the keep, he’s not walking very far, and can take any number of other routes out of the keep to avoid being ganked. Otherwise it’s just a lack of willingness to avoid being farmed/lack of interest in learning how to get better by looking at the damage logs and figuring out why he’s dying.

The meta builds for any small-scale are all condition builds or low-burst. Not a single combo-burst build is in the meta, because all of them under-perform when against skilled players. All of them.

And if he’s actually being ganked, why should a new player even have hopes of winning a 1v2+ against more experienced players? He shouldn’t, because otherwise it suggests he’s just being carried by his build, which means he’s actually playing something overpowered.

Basically, everything you describe suggests either a scenario where a new player either thinks too much of himself, doesn’t care to learn how to improve (so he’ll never be any good in PvP environments), simply isn’t playing the game with an ounce of strategy in mind, or is just a contradiction.

Burst isn’t the problem. Safe, spammable burst is, which is the argument I’ve been posing since the first thread.