Guild Wars 2

Hey was just wondering since trebs will not do damage to rams through gates after the balance patch, will cannons and mortars be fixed as well? Possibly even arrow carts?

Which patch notes are you reading?

Phlogus.2371:

Which patch notes are you reading?

It was mentioned on the balance patch live stream, if I remember correctly.

interesting change. so they making the battle more realistic and logical, then if they even change how AC interact too, wow, interesting.

I don’t remember this but that would be a terrible change. Little a defender can do to stop superior rams now aside from the treb/cata defense.

Straegen.2938:

I don’t remember this but that would be a terrible change. Little a defender can do to stop superior rams now aside from the treb/cata defense.

As much as the trebs behind the door don’t make sense… I do feel like they kinda fill a niche. Rams are pretty beastly with the traits.

I guess I was OK with Anet’s past move to eliminate damage to rams by catas inside gates because there’s little cost in time and supply to build a cata for every gate, but I think canons and trebs should remain as is so as not to tip the balance too much in favor of the attackers. Some of the most dedicated WvW players around spend hours and hours sieging up, upgrading, and scouting their holdings, and they’re already burdened enough by having to run hundreds of supplies from camps and refreshing every frigging worthwhile piece of siege on the map (other than cannons and mortars). Anet, please don’t add another slap to their faces by making it even harder to defend. Attackers should have to be at least somewhat skilled and creative to get into upgraded, sieged up structures.

if they fix all damage going through gates, whether by players or siege, i think that would be (obviously) logical and more balanced. that way a defending force could repair the gate from the inside without getting melted by aoe.

maybe adding a t3 upgrade to doors so they could go to fortified from reinforced would help also.

Anet should just make AOE effects obey line of sight. That is if there is a gate you casted well of darkness on it would only be able to hit players on the same side of the gate the well is on and not on the other side. Same for siege AOE except for skills specifically designed to hit through gates (ram mastery 4 skill).

It would radically alter zerg v keep fights that’s for sure.

If they remove the ability for cannons to destroy rams through gates, they mine as well remove cannons. It’s the one useful things Cannons had going for them. Other than that, they are pretty much cannon fodder (no pun intended).

DeadlySynz.3471:

If they remove the ability for cannons to destroy rams through gates, they mine as well remove cannons. It’s the one useful things Cannons had going for them. Other than that, they are pretty much cannon fodder (no pun intended).

There is truth in this statement that cannons are the first target of any attacking force and are completely defenseless, thus pretty useless beyond being able to do dmg through gates. I have zero isssues with changing placed siege, trebs, ac’s etc, so they cannot hit through gates as they can be moved but leave cannons as is.

If you really want to balance that part of cannons…
Put all the cannons on 1500 unit tall towers at the corners of walls. That way cannons are safe from players’ shots. 1200 units would be enough to keep it balanced if that’s too much.

The cannons on stonemist’s inner are an example of how this would work out.

lioka qiao.8734:

If you really want to balance that part of cannons…
Put all the cannons on 1500 unit tall towers at the corners of walls. That way cannons are safe from players’ shots. 1200 units would be enough to keep it balanced if that’s too much.

The cannons on stonemist’s inner are an example of how this would work out.

I love this idea.
I love cannons but, as it is, it’s almost kind of a waste to put points in Cannon Mastery, unless you just don’t have anything else to do with your points.

They should definitely be careful how they implement this. It should be harder to take a fort, then defend it. Otherwise, wvw becomes even more ktrain.

I’m not ok with trebs not doing dmg throught gates, its already difficult to defend structures when outnumbered

This makes me really nervous. They already nerfed cata’s through the gate, now trebs, next AC’s? It’s going to be nearly impossible to defend towers against sup rams with mastery now.
The whole point of siege is to delay/stop forces with superior numbers.
The only acceptable solution I think will be to make doors the first upgrade. Upgrading walls first is silly since no one goes for walls when doors are paper.

1500 units is not tall enough, I think there are player skills with 1500 range

GJ Anet for making defending totaly impossible, with AOE on the walls, how do you expect defenders to you know defend?

One thing for sure if this keeps up, no one gonna upgrade anything, we all will flip paper towers and keeps left and right which will kill WvW for sure and most people including me will move to ESO.

ANET really need to make the oil pot worthy by making it undamaged by player skill, and the attacking team need to attack the oil pot using siege weapon (cata/balista/treb) to destroy it, only then then can deploy flame ram on the gate…..

WTB source please. Treb change would be horrible.

… Wait.. So we can’t use trebs to knock people off of rams anymore after this patch? What the hell are we supposed to do as defenders? Just lay down and let them take our stuff? I’m sorry but this really angers me… As someone who upgrades and defends towers frequently, it isn’t easy to defend as is. Arrow carts have to be placed in incredibly awkward positions otherwise they’ll be destroyed in seconds, don’t even think about using a ballista, a catapult can be great but still doesn’t hold a candle to a trebuchet on door defense, and god forbid you actually try to stand on the walls and range the attackers without using siege… You’re either pulled down and dogpiled or you melt like butter on the walls. I understand how door-treb defense can be a pain to the rammers, but it’s far, far easier to take a tower than it is to defend it… They really don’t need to make it any more in favor of the attackers.
How about making it so that siege on walls can’t be destroyed only timed out by siege decay, or something more in favor of us defenders for once…

It is fair enough making this more realistic but can we have more realistic castles too? After all if you are going to make it easier to attack… then you have to add some features to make it easier to defend…

so let’s have the following real life examples…

1) arrow slits that are incredibly difficult to hit by the defender but easy for the defender to fire out of

2) double gates with oil that can be poured between outer and inner gate that can’t be attacked on all gates

3) a t3 upgrade of portcullis which basically negates normal rams

4) only one gate into the keep

5) a moat around each castle with draw up bridges

6) hidden passages which would need to change regularly in order for them to remain hidden (perhaps allow the team in question to choose where these are located as an upgrade… or a secret passage from a supply camp into the keep that can only be used by the team currently owning the keep.

7) an alley (can be differing lengths) but something like the south west gate of garrison at each outer gate that can focus attack of the defenders.

All features from real life castles.

Its ok if they fix AOE attack from players that can hit siege that it should not be able to hit.

The real problem is that Burning Oil doesn’t work. I have never seen anyone successfully use Oil as a defense. You will live a fraction of a second trying to use the Oil. Therefore trebs, catas, arrowcarts, are all used as an alternative to Oil.

It really doesn’t make any logical sense that attacking your own gates with a treb or cata is a good defensive ploy, if anything attacking your own gate with siege should bring it down faster.

RiWiJo.7502:

The real problem is that Burning Oil doesn’t work. I have never seen anyone successfully use Oil as a defense. You will live a fraction of a second trying to use the Oil. Therefore trebs, catas, arrowcarts, are all used as an alternative to Oil.

It really doesn’t make any logical sense that attacking your own gates with a treb or cata is a good defensive ploy, if anything attacking your own gate with siege should bring it down faster.

oils pretty good when its 1 vs <15 and you have max oil mastery

RiWiJo.7502:

The real problem is that Burning Oil doesn’t work. I have never seen anyone successfully use Oil as a defense. You will live a fraction of a second trying to use the Oil. Therefore trebs, catas, arrowcarts, are all used as an alternative to Oil.

It really doesn’t make any logical sense that attacking your own gates with a treb or cata is a good defensive ploy, if anything attacking your own gate with siege should bring it down faster.

Oil very effective against rams if you have the full oil mastery, for the refelct projectiles bubble. Maybe this change will make more players invest in the oil mastery.

Oil is OK for small-scale attacks, bu try using it when there’s a 40 man zerg at the gate with half a clue of what they are supposed to do.

Please Anet, DO NOT nerf gate cannons and trebs. Defenders “take it in the shorts” over so many issues already. Nerfing cannons/trebs will mean more ACs behind gates, which means more time wasted refreshing. I’m sick to death of refreshing already.

Goodluck trying to stop 5 sup rams being manned by 5 guys with full ram mastery,all having 50% reduced dmg taken,gate being stacked by a zerg who keeps buffing them…Ac dmg wont do enough unless you got like 10 inside…gates melt fast enough as they do,removing yet another way of defending a tower against a blob is not the best way to go.

RiWiJo.7502:

The real problem is that Burning Oil doesn’t work.(…)

slingblade.1437:

Oil is OK for small-scale attacks, bu try using it when there’s a 40 man zerg at the gate with half a clue of what they are supposed to do.

Please Anet, DO NOT nerf gate cannons and trebs. Defenders “take it in the shorts” over so many issues already. Nerfing cannons/trebs will mean more ACs behind gates, which means more time wasted refreshing. I’m sick to death of refreshing already.

$5 says they’re doing this change because of T1, just because they always have numbers on. Anet, don’t be stupid, don’t do this. Trebs and cannons are our ONLY defense against rams. If you do this change, NOBODY will defend towers and keeps, there will no longer be a point since there will be no way of defending against rams being used by a larger force. At the moment only trebs and cannons are our defense against that.

Plus remember Anet, this only works on the GATES. If those fools are QQing because they can’t take a gate, go to a kitten ed wall, they’re easier to take and harder to defend going down. Outside of setting arrow carts (easily countered) on the wall, nothing can defend against a superior force of enemies on the other side catapulting/trebbing it. All you can do is call for aid and set counter siege inside the keep’s inner.

Sieges should be used and destroyed by anybody and have frendly fire. (BB shooting own gate with 3 catapults and 2 treb guys)

Are they going to get rid of PvD also? that to me is absolutely broken.

I prefer being a defensive player on a low-tiered server. This would make upgrading pointless on low-tiered servers where door trebs are critical for giving a small number of defenders a chance to hold a T3 tower when they don’t have good coverage.

Zepher.7803:

Are they going to get rid of PvD also? that to me is absolutely broken.

Apparently the goal of fortifications in WvW are to make it as easy for attackers as possible to take things as quickly as possible so they don’t get bored. That’s why walls block attackers shooting down (unless they stand on the edge where they can be pulled off), why built-in siege is placed where it can be easily destroyed by attackers, why ballistas have to be put on the edge of walls, why crenelations block defenders but not attacker AoEs, why walls aren’t think enough or tall enough to block most attacks, why it’s so difficult to place siege weapons that can’t be destroyed by attackers, and so on. At some point, it’s going to be easier to defend supply camps than walled structures.

Berk.8561:

I prefer being a defensive player on a low-tiered server. This would make upgrading pointless on low-tiered servers where door trebs are critical for giving a small number of defenders a chance to hold a T3 tower when they don’t have good coverage.

It’d make it pointless on every server, unless you keep everybody on the maps in each keep/tower, which won’t happen. Meaning it’ll just kill defense in WvW, there’ll be no point to do that or upgrade anymore.

Malediktus.9250:

1500 units is not tall enough, I think there are player skills with 1500 range

This is true, Rangers can shoot at 1500 when traited. I also believe both Rangers barrage and Ele’s meteor shower could still reach them at 1500.

I’d be perfectly fine though if they were raised to 2000 and only made to hit with Ballista. It would certainly delay an attacking force, and give reason for people to build cannons and put points into mastery.

Plenty of door trebs can be killed with Ac’s before placing rams. Doors melt so kittening fast with 5 sup rams that we might as well not have doors at all if they want to get rid of every single way of defending them that isn’t jumping down the walls with a defense zerg or 10 AC’s on the walls.

so, this would mean wvw would become nothing more than a karma train?

Torgrim.3642:

GJ Anet for making defending totaly impossible, with AOE on the walls, how do you expect defenders to you know defend?

One thing for sure if this keeps up, no one gonna upgrade anything, we all will flip paper towers and keeps left and right which will kill WvW for sure and most people including me will move to ESO.

Surely suicide is a more humane option?

A Massive Headache.1879:

so, this would mean wvw would become nothing more than a karma train?

Pretty much.

Oil can be destroyed by distant attack off players so they need to fix so only melee attacks and siege can destroy oil.

Shadow.3475:

Oil can be destroyed by distant attack off players so they need to fix so only melee attacks and siege can destroy oil.

Just bring those omegas with range depploy some catas with traited players on them.
Everyone knows how a few omegas get a maxed gate down real fast.

What’s Anet thinking here, I wonder? Slapping the faces of all the defensive players, that spend the most time and money in WvW upgrading and defending the keeps and towers.

As if defending wasn’t hard enough, with the built-in siege being destroyed as soon as a zerg comes on, defenders on walls can’t engage unless they step on the edge of the wall where they will be pulled, etc, now you’re essentially removing the defenders’ only ways to mitigate those problems? It will become far too easy to take fortifications, and in the end no one will bother upgrading or defending anything. It’ll just be K-trains 24/7 and the servers that constantly find themselves outnumbered will no longer have any fighting chance because they can no longer defend.

Makes you wonder about what Anet is trying to do here. Why would they make such a devastating change to WvW on the advent of the release of another MMO with a similar RvR combat. It’s like they want the WvW population to quit GW2 and head over to their competition.

Will be much, much easier to flip stuff,

Castles and towers will flip fast as GW1 AB shrines did.

At least the treb hitting rams was covering the bad game design and maybe they are working on other fixes and balances.

If they are going through with this, they have no idea what WvW is like during off-coverage times. Even during times when a server has coverage, trebs are necessary to delay the enemy if you are getting hit by both servers at once.

It is already incredibly difficult to defend without a matching force, and it is already impossible when the enemy brings omegas and you don’t have a zerg to kill them, now they want to get rid of the most important tools in tower/keep defense?

What is driving players off lower tiers is the quality of play. Without any tools to defend, there is no incentive to defend, and without any kind of defensive aspect the game will become much more 1-dimensional.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Malediktus.9250:

1500 units is not tall enough, I think there are player skills with 1500 range

This is true, Rangers can shoot at 1500 when traited. I also believe both Rangers barrage and Ele’s meteor shower could still reach them at 1500.

I’d be perfectly fine though if they were raised to 2000 and only made to hit with Ballista. It would certainly delay an attacking force, and give reason for people to build cannons and put points into mastery.

1500 is fine. Cannons shouldn’t be un-destroyable.
The 1500 range would severely limit the amount of players that could damage them and the players on them.
1500 range, gives some kind of purpose for rangers in wvw, and brings even more props to properly traited ele staff builds.
The person operating the cannon would be much safer for longer & may not even have to abandon the cannon thanks to the lack of necro aoe >.>
And one would hope that this distance also negates pulls for the cannoneers

Berk.8561:

At some point, it’s going to be easier to defend supply camps than walled structures.

Yup, RI is going to be the biggest deterrent in WvW. Reinforced walls and doors will be relegated to nuisance with the way things are going.

Horrible idea. Deck is already stacked in favor of offense anyways but this will take it one step too far.
Gates that can be attacked my normal attacks is already a nuisance since an attacking force can destroy the gate by just autoattacking regardless of defensive siege. Sure – you can down them but they get instantly resurrected in a few seconds.

Why does Anet so hate the idea of a determined group investing their time in escorting dolyaks, doing supply runs, sieging up tower and with such preparations successfully defending the structure?

A Massive Headache.1879:

so, this would mean wvw would become nothing more than a karma train?

You mean it isn’t already?

I just had a super idea for defense. Make all tower/keep/castle walls twice as thick as they currently are instead of these narrow jokes we have right now. I’m not saying make them harder to take down with trebs or catas, but to make them wider so that an arrow cart placed on the wall wouldn’t have to be placed right on the very inner edges to avoid AOE’s. That way you could actually stand on the godkitten walls to defend something.

Sigh Anet..

I don’t know why you are doing this because it only benefits the the huge Blobs who insta build superior rams then facerub and auto attack the door while defenders watch it melt.

We have been asking for you guys to help the defenders and stop the blobs from causing damage with their player attacks on doors. However apparently you decided to help the blobs instead.

trebs are a good way to defend towers and keeps. Correct me if I am wrong but weren’t you guys the people who told us we should use siege vs zergs? So why change your mind now?

Who complained? Its not WvWers because WvW players who attack gates are the same guys who in other situations defend them.
What I think is that some PVE Karma trainer in zerker speed run dungeon gear wants to get his loot faster.

How about you remove the WvW maps from a separate instance and place it next to Orr so that the karma train can easily port to the WvW events (not fights anymore) without a long loading screen or queue.

There already very little incentive for defenders. Add to that that its a huge gold sink for them…

-Proud CU backer