Guild Wars 2

So tonight in EBG I seen that running away from fights is still rampant, where is the fun in that, from both sides, 1 server runs away as soon as they see the enemy, and the other gives chase until the runners get into a keep/tower and hide behind arrow carts, or manage to WP out.

The group I was running with (early on) where outnumbered at least 2:1 in some fights, and when we ran out to fight the enemy they ran off,

Scoring should be changed so that PvD is not more rewarding that actually fighting, WXP from capping should be removed, or heavily reduced, we need to make it that servers that actually want to fight get placed against each other, as it stands servers will still run away hide, and when its clear run out PvD a door down and cap, then run away again, its boring, with this you should increase the rewards from actually fighting real players.

Servers that wish to do that, will eventually get that, and only face each other, and servers that want to actually fight in WvW will move up and face each other, that way servers who want to PvD all day wont have to fight anyone,

As it stands, even with the changes to scoring, its still to easy for a server to score and never actually have to fight anyone other than an NPC that stands no chance against 20-40 people.

Hypothetically, do you think these groups would run away from fights if there was some way to guarantee that they would always win?

Think about it for a minute. It’s not a difficult question.

I can think of but a few exceptions, e.g., losing a T3 keep, seasonal tournaments, server rivalry, where it might not be the case. Most players will probably agree that rewards in WvW are kitten, so let’s not pretend that PvD is a reason either.

So what’s more likely then? Are these groups avoiding combat because they prefer to reap the nonexistent rewards-

OR…

Perhaps some of these groups are simply afraid of losing. They might not be as experienced, as coordinated, or as familiar with each other. I’m sure you’d be pretty upset if you hopped into WvW one day and the group did nothing but wipe repeatedly.

I’ll end on a couple of thoughts. What sort of realistic changes can the developers OR the community implement so that groups are more willing to take risks and fight each other? How do you balance combat and numbers so that an outnumbered group will still be eager to come out and play, but not driven to outnumber their foes when they have the chance? In my opinion, the latter is a far more difficult problem to solve than the former.

A change in scoring isn’t a cure-all here. If it shifts to PPK, people will continue to run from fights they aren’t sure of winning.

A change in player behavior though, such as one where scouting and defending is more prevalent, will mean there’s no option to just run away and PvD. Of course, that depends on the ability of players to mount a reasonable defense.

Ok I Did It.2854:

So tonight in EBG I seen that running away from fights is still rampant, where is the fun in that, from both sides, 1 server runs away as soon as they see the enemy, and the other gives chase until the runners get into a keep/tower and hide behind arrow carts, or manage to WP out.

The group I was running with (early on) where outnumbered at least 2:1 in some fights, and when we ran out to fight the enemy they ran off,

Scoring should be changed so that PvD is not more rewarding that actually fighting, WXP from capping should be removed, or heavily reduced, we need to make it that servers that actually want to fight get placed against each other, as it stands servers will still run away hide, and when its clear run out PvD a door down and cap, then run away again, its boring, with this you should increase the rewards from actually fighting real players.

Servers that wish to do that, will eventually get that, and only face each other, and servers that want to actually fight in WvW will move up and face each other, that way servers who want to PvD all day wont have to fight anyone,

As it stands, even with the changes to scoring, its still to easy for a server to score and never actually have to fight anyone other than an NPC that stands no chance against 20-40 people.

To be honest this was my number one turn off from GW2’s version of RvR. It was pretty clear in this game the cowards usually win. Servers run away from fights to hide behind towers and back/night cap because that was going to give them more towards the score.

GW2 ideal of RvR is kinda the opposite of every other dev team’s game with RvR support that I’ve played. In all of the other MMOs I plays or played. If you ran away from fights you was punished in the personal rewards. DCUO, BnS, Eve Online, and ESO went down this route to promote fighting between players. On the other hand it seems GW2 wanted to be special by doing the opposite, and promote back capping, night capping, PvD, and K-Training. It’s also has the do with the community that GW2’s raised since HoT.

So in essence it appears that if you want RvR-Lite PvD edition, and want to avoid fights
and RvR at the same time. Then GW2 is the game for you. Other then that, you’ll end up with nothing but salt. Different games for different things I guess.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Ok I Did It.2854:

So tonight in EBG I seen that running away from fights is still rampant, where is the fun in that, from both sides, 1 server runs away as soon as they see the enemy, and the other gives chase until the runners get into a keep/tower and hide behind arrow carts, or manage to WP out.

The group I was running with (early on) where outnumbered at least 2:1 in some fights, and when we ran out to fight the enemy they ran off,

Scoring should be changed so that PvD is not more rewarding that actually fighting, WXP from capping should be removed, or heavily reduced, we need to make it that servers that actually want to fight get placed against each other, as it stands servers will still run away hide, and when its clear run out PvD a door down and cap, then run away again, its boring, with this you should increase the rewards from actually fighting real players.

Servers that wish to do that, will eventually get that, and only face each other, and servers that want to actually fight in WvW will move up and face each other, that way servers who want to PvD all day wont have to fight anyone,

As it stands, even with the changes to scoring, its still to easy for a server to score and never actually have to fight anyone other than an NPC that stands no chance against 20-40 people.

To be honest this was my number one turn off from GW2’s version of RvR. It was pretty clear in this game the cowards usually win. Servers run away from fights to hide behind towers and back/night cap because that was going to give them more towards the score.

GW2 ideal of RvR is kinda the opposite of every other dev team’s game with RvR support that I’ve played. In all of the other MMOs I plays or played. If you ran away from fights you was punished in the personal rewards. DCUO, BnS, Eve Online, and ESO went down this route to promote fighting between players. On the other hand it seems GW2 wanted to be special by doing the opposite, and promote back capping, night capping, PvD, and K-Training. It’s also has the do with the community that GW2’s raised since HoT.

So in essence it appears that if you want RvR-Lite PvD edition, and want to avoid fights
and RvR at the same time. Then GW2 is the game for you. Other then that, you’ll end up with nothing but salt. Different games for different things I guess.

So how would you change the scoring so that population and coverage doesn’t win?

Would you divide the score by player-hours?
Would you compare the final score to an expected score?
Would you replace capture, hold and PPK scoring with territory gained/lost scoring?

You want WvW to die?

Cause thats how you get WvW to die.

Loot is a major driving factor even for those that fight. This would kill the game during off hours and never get ball going later, because there will be no players to fight – players that otherwise would have been capping objectives getting wxp and awaiting opposition.

PPK is not the answer.
PPK only encourages lopsided farming fight and running away from fights when there is no chance of winning.

Just imagine if in PvP, only killing awards points. All you would get is 5 ppl moving together and all dynamic playstyle will be lost.

What needs to happen is a focus on PPT or points earn on objective. But it is much easier to get fight around the objective instead of PvD.

Swamurabi.7890:

Reaper Alim.4176:

Ok I Did It.2854:

So tonight in EBG I seen that running away from fights is still rampant, where is the fun in that, from both sides, 1 server runs away as soon as they see the enemy, and the other gives chase until the runners get into a keep/tower and hide behind arrow carts, or manage to WP out.

The group I was running with (early on) where outnumbered at least 2:1 in some fights, and when we ran out to fight the enemy they ran off,

Scoring should be changed so that PvD is not more rewarding that actually fighting, WXP from capping should be removed, or heavily reduced, we need to make it that servers that actually want to fight get placed against each other, as it stands servers will still run away hide, and when its clear run out PvD a door down and cap, then run away again, its boring, with this you should increase the rewards from actually fighting real players.

Servers that wish to do that, will eventually get that, and only face each other, and servers that want to actually fight in WvW will move up and face each other, that way servers who want to PvD all day wont have to fight anyone,

As it stands, even with the changes to scoring, its still to easy for a server to score and never actually have to fight anyone other than an NPC that stands no chance against 20-40 people.

To be honest this was my number one turn off from GW2’s version of RvR. It was pretty clear in this game the cowards usually win. Servers run away from fights to hide behind towers and back/night cap because that was going to give them more towards the score.

GW2 ideal of RvR is kinda the opposite of every other dev team’s game with RvR support that I’ve played. In all of the other MMOs I plays or played. If you ran away from fights you was punished in the personal rewards. DCUO, BnS, Eve Online, and ESO went down this route to promote fighting between players. On the other hand it seems GW2 wanted to be special by doing the opposite, and promote back capping, night capping, PvD, and K-Training. It’s also has the do with the community that GW2’s raised since HoT.

So in essence it appears that if you want RvR-Lite PvD edition, and want to avoid fights
and RvR at the same time. Then GW2 is the game for you. Other then that, you’ll end up with nothing but salt. Different games for different things I guess.

So how would you change the scoring so that population and coverage doesn’t win?

Would you divide the score by player-hours?
Would you compare the final score to an expected score?
Would you replace capture, hold and PPK scoring with territory gained/lost scoring?

No another MMO that I currently plays that has RvR-ish support had this very problem upto about 7 to 9 months ago, and solved it in one go.

- Capturing a undefended or lightly defended objective yelds nearly no personal rewards compared to capturing a highly defended objective. Now in that MMO we have very little of the run from fights and back cap mindset. Players clash with each other at nearly every chance they get for better rewards.

- The more players that tags a target the less rewards personal rewards that group of players get. After this change we went from the omni-blobs that overpowers GW2 currently to maybe 2 to 3 separate raid groups of 24 attacking different objectives. And also way more small scale then prior to this change. Because the less players with you the more rewards you get. Which push players to only omni-blob on rare occasions, because in those events you was going to get nothing for omni-blobing just for sake of omni-blobing.

- They also increase the damage reduction scale of AOE damage so now instead of only 6 people taking AOE damage upto 75 take decent amount of AOE damage with no AOE cap. Giving the tools for very coordinated and skilled players in small groups to 8 v 100 mindless potato zerglings 4 times in a row. Giving incentives for the player base to want to get better and rely less on just needlessly blobing others to cover their own short comings.

TL/DL

Nerf mindless uncoordinated zerg play. And buff small coordinated group play. Also make less worth it to PvD or back cap, and more worth it to try to capture the objective that is going to give the fight. Make the risk vs reward evaluation of fighting instead of PvD more worth it.

Scoring won’t change PvD.

Chaba.5410:

Scoring won’t change PvD.

You are correct. Only changing person rewards to punish players who only PvD and run from fights, will. But I think I already named that as a proven solution that has worked in another MMO that has RvR-ish support.

People cry about PvD and people running from fights. Yet don’t want to implement the features or changes that would help in this endeavor. The community of GW2 as a whole, don’t want decent fights, just easy “I Win Buttons and mechanics”.

In the end the community and the devs just want GW2’s version of RvR. To be a PvE K-Train fest. And that all to it. Barely anyone in GW2 wants decent fights. Hell that’s why players play GW2, and not other fight oriented or skill based MMOs/games. At least be honest with yall selves. Because yall are not fooling anyone else and certainly yall not fooling the devs at ANet.

~edited to add content.

The GW2 community that wanted fights and skill based gameplay. Are all but gone. Most just read the forums to see, if by off chance ANet makes changes. Then go back to doing what they was doing.

Reaper Alim.4176:

You are correct. Only changing person rewards to punish players who only PvD and run from fights, will. But I think I already named that as a proven solution that has worked in another MMO that has RvR-ish support.

People cry about PvD and people running from fights. Yet don’t want to implement the features or changes that would help in this endeavor. The community of GW2 as a whole, don’t want decent fights, just easy “I Win Buttons and mechanics”.

In the end the community and the devs just want GW2’s version of RvR. To be a PvE K-Train fest. And that all to it. Barely anyone in GW2 wants decent fights. Hell that’s why players play GW2, and not other fight oriented or skill based MMOs/games. At least be honest with yall selves. Because yall are not fooling anyone else and certainly yall not fooling the devs at ANet.

~edited to add content.

The GW2 community that wanted fights and skill based gameplay. Are all but gone. Most just read the forums to see, if by off chance ANet makes changes. Then go back to doing what they was doing.

And

Reaper Alim.4176:

• Capturing a undefended or lightly defended objective yelds nearly no personal rewards compared to capturing a highly defended objective. Now in that MMO we have very little of the run from fights and back cap mindset. Players clash with each other at nearly every chance they get for better rewards.
• The more players that tags a target the less rewards personal rewards that group of players get. After this change we went from the omni-blobs that overpowers GW2 currently to maybe 2 to 3 separate raid groups of 24 attacking different objectives. And also way more small scale then prior to this change. Because the less players with you the more rewards you get. Which push players to only omni-blob on rare occasions, because in those events you was going to get nothing for omni-blobing just for sake of omni-blobing.

Aside from the issue of player’s behaviour, which I mostly share, there’s a point that I’d like you to dig a bit, because I really find you have interesting ideas. Here’re my questions :

• When you’re talking about a “defended” objective : are you referring to players defending it, or are you including the “upgraded” objective status ?
• Players’ “tangible” rewards are loot, items from reward tracks, and leveling rewards. Which are mostly of poor value (some ascended stuff put aside). So, are you suggesting to buff “tangible” rewards for small groups ? Or some other kind of reward ?
• Small teams and coordination appeals to me, yet how should PUGs be handled ? As they’d make the numbers raise, they’d lower the rewards, and it may bring toxicity.

Capping an objective or holding it rewards points per tick or per cap to the server, and not to the players. Fights rewards loot and PPK to the server. For now, there is no connection between server score and player’s rewards, and I think it’s worked on. I think something needs to be done with scoring and rewards so that player’s individual interest (in loot e.g.) would meet a servers’ score interest, and compensate for the lack of players that play for “good fights” or “to make their server win”.

To change behavior, there are several things to consider. Oversimplified, yes, but it’s a general outline.

First, winning a skirmish needs to matter.

Second, each side needs to believe they have a chance. Matches that are winnable get engagement. Matches that aren’t, don’t.

Third, whether you like it or not, some variation on capturing and holding territory needs to be how you win. It needs to be possible for a havoc team to ninja something and make an enemy force decide to split up to be competitive. If everything can be defended by one porting fire brigade with ease, it won’t break that blob up.

The fights will happen if holding territory matters. Yes, that means dealing with enemy siege, but that’s counter able. You just need a little coordination between your forces.

~Snip~

ThomasC.1056:

Reaper Alim.4176:

• Capturing a undefended or lightly defended objective yelds nearly no personal rewards compared to capturing a highly defended objective. Now in that MMO we have very little of the run from fights and back cap mindset. Players clash with each other at nearly every chance they get for better rewards.
• The more players that tags a target the less rewards personal rewards that group of players get. After this change we went from the omni-blobs that overpowers GW2 currently to maybe 2 to 3 separate raid groups of 24 attacking different objectives. And also way more small scale then prior to this change. Because the less players with you the more rewards you get. Which push players to only omni-blob on rare occasions, because in those events you was going to get nothing for omni-blobing just for sake of omni-blobing.

Aside from the issue of player’s behaviour, which I mostly share, there’s a point that I’d like you to dig a bit, because I really find you have interesting ideas. Here’re my questions :

• When you’re talking about a “defended” objective : are you referring to players defending it, or are you including the “upgraded” objective status ?
• Players’ “tangible” rewards are loot, items from reward tracks, and leveling rewards. Which are mostly of poor value (some ascended stuff put aside). So, are you suggesting to buff “tangible” rewards for small groups ? Or some other kind of reward ?
• Small teams and coordination appeals to me, yet how should PUGs be handled ? As they’d make the numbers raise, they’d lower the rewards, and it may bring toxicity.

Capping an objective or holding it rewards points per tick or per cap to the server, and not to the players. Fights rewards loot and PPK to the server. For now, there is no connection between server score and player’s rewards, and I think it’s worked on. I think something needs to be done with scoring and rewards so that player’s individual interest (in loot e.g.) would meet a servers’ score interest, and compensate for the lack of players that play for “good fights” or “to make their server win”.

- When I’m talking about a “defended” objective. I am referring to a object that has a active fight between players. Not a fight where it’s 50 players vs door and maybe 1 or 2 players. Basically if the fight is a steam roll because of population imbalance. The attacking players get very little towards their reward track progression, and very lackluster item rewards for their effort. However say both sides get into a actual fight between players. The longer and more intense the fight is. The more reward track progression, and a higher chance for better items. For the winner of said battle gets.

- I do suggest rewards for Epic fights like a 2 hour plus tug a war battles between servers over one objective. Should provide a much higher chance then normal to get. Better tier’ed rewards to include better chance of selectable stats exotic gear.This
would not only promote players and guilds to destack servers. But to also encourage players to fight instead of running away. In order to back cap a undefended objective. In order to get much better rewards.

- Well to be brutefully honest. I believe PUGs should be encouraged to find a guild. Or maybe friend up with one or two others and go assualt and defend the minor objectives in a coordinated manor. In order to support the larger coordinated groups. I can clearly see where your concerns are coming from, about the toxicity, towards PUGs. But lets be honest that already exist to a concerning degree now.

To help lessen the blow against PUGs. ANet should encourage guilds to have as many active WvW’ers on their servers,
on their member’s rosters as posible.(Actually contributing to their server as a guild group, of say 10 more) Yes in order to combat the rise of mock guilds. That wish to exploit the most glaring loophole in this plan.(Just coordinate bewteen guilds inorder to share members.) Guilds will have to claim if they are a WvW guild. If the answer is yes. They then would have to claim a server. Members will only be able to give contribution points to one guild, after they are
deemed active on the server and guild for atleast 1 week. Members then receive rewards for loyal guild activity, increasing in reward tier, every week following. The guilds receive contribution points based on how many active members it has. The guild can then spend points to buy tactivator upgrades by bypassing the PvE requirement to buy them.

This will encourage both guilds to invite and train PUGs, to become proper guild mates. It’ll also encourage PUGs to want to join a declared WvW guild, and to get better at the game. I my opinion this is a win/win for all parties in question.

I hope this help you understand a bit better.

I guess everyone has a different opinion on this. Mine is that I am in WvW for the fights. Not the rewards, not anything else. I am in it for fights. So when a group runs form you, I consider that cowardliness .

Malerian.8435:

I guess everyone has a different opinion on this. Mine is that I am in WvW for the fights. Not the rewards, not anything else. I am in it for fights. So when a group runs form you, I consider that cowardliness .

I agree with you %100. Hence why I don’t WvW much anymore here in GW2. And RvRs in another MMO that basic mechanics supports fighting over running away and PvDing.

Yes the community does need to change it’s behavior. But lets be honest here. Most will not change their behavior unless ANet intervenes. With game mode changing mechanics, that heavily pushes players to want to fight. Instead of again running away and PvDing.

But again lets be honest the amount of players that want decent fights in GW2. Are smaller then the current PvP elite community. So I have little to nearly no hope that ANet, will do anything to push for meaningful fights in GW2. Players just want a cheap ego boost here. And GW2 delivers on that the best out of any MMORPG on the market. But I still sometimes dream from afar.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Malerian.8435:

I guess everyone has a different opinion on this. Mine is that I am in WvW for the fights. Not the rewards, not anything else. I am in it for fights. So when a group runs form you, I consider that cowardliness .

I agree with you %100. Hence why I don’t WvW much anymore here in GW2. And RvRs in another MMO that basic mechanics supports fighting over running away and PvDing.

Yes the community does need to change it’s behavior. But lets be honest here. Most will not change their behavior unless ANet intervenes. With game mode changing mechanics, that heavily pushes players to want to fight. Instead of again running away and PvDing.

But again lets be honest the amount of players that want decent fights in GW2. Are smaller then the current PvP elite community. So I have little to nearly no hope that ANet, will do anything to push for meaningful fights in GW2. Players just want a cheap ego boost here. And GW2 delivers on that the best out of any MMORPG on the market. But I still sometimes dream from afar.

I think ( I may be wrong here but I doubt it ) a lot of players are running what they now call the “Meta” (complete crap builds for the most part imho) and a lot of their play style is determined by the monkey see monkey do factors. It must start with the person leading the group. Maybe that individual has no clue how to fight so they just run? But WvW has gotten a bit ridiculous as of late with the newest players coming in. It is getting harder and harder to have a good open field fight. Sad but true.

Anet has made clear that they don’t want mechanics that punish players for having others nearby. That leads to people not wanting other players to show up.

If you want to cut down on PvD, the trick is to make scoring matter and make defense viable. Naturally, players will then defend their objectives which means nothing happens without a fight.

Sviel.7493:

Anet has made clear that they don’t want mechanics that punish players for having others nearby. That leads to people not wanting other players to show up.

If you want to cut down on PvD, the trick is to make scoring matter and make defense viable. Naturally, players will then defend their objectives which means nothing happens without a fight.

wich means, change how WvW works… wich means by itself, WvW wont change.

I don’t think it’s too complicated to make scoring matter and defense viable. There seems to be more of a push to work on the other end, population balance, though. Hard-wiring a population is very difficult—promoting the conditions that naturally lead to more even matches is easier. Hard, yes, but easier.