Guild Wars 2

I have been playing GW2 for about a year now and have noticed that while a build might be great for roaming, it may completely suck when doing the normal zerg Vs zerg battles. The trick then is to find some sort of balance so that you, as the player, can be effective when you’re stuck in a 1vX situation or when you want to stick with the blob. This question has been something I’ve yet to be able to answer and was wondering, what you all thought?

Examples -

1. My condi Warrior works like a dream come true against 1v1 or 1v2 but when it comes to using this same build against a zerg, she’s pretty much useless. As it stands, most zergs will spam the AoE condi removal and eliminate the majority of the damage she can do. I will assume this is the case for other heavy condition classes/builds.
2. I have a zerker Thief that can deal out tons of damage when roaming but in a zerg, that SB just doesn’t cut it. Try running a heavy condi build? Yeah, that doesn’t work either.
3. I also have a Mesmer that uses staff + s/f and can deal out tons of support/damage in a zerg. However, when using this same build while roaming, I get torn to shreds. However, if I change over to my hybrid build (in signature), I can easily survive 1v2 + or simply stealth and run away.

Perhaps I’m looking at this all wrong but is there a class/build that can be highly effective in both styles of combat? So far, I’ve not really found much of anything that can fill both roles effectively.

Necro, warrior (if you use straight man spec, not some condi kitten), guardian, engineer, thief with shortbow.

Any class and spec can work with a zerg. It all depends on what you want to do to contribute. Condition specs have a purpose, since they force enemy players to back off and blow their removal skills, keeping them off the front line, while burst damage specs help take out guards, lords, and enemy players that much faster. Meanwhile, support specs help keep your army in good shape, which I feel is a must since about 80% of the people in a zerg are idiots that just blindly follow whichever moron has the blue dorito.

Except for Thief, at least. Only thing they’re good at is running away.

As for roaming, usually you just bring in whatever can help you survive or make a getaway if you need to bolt. Things that give stealth or increased movement speed help, and maybe some CC to make sure you can keep players from ganging up on you. Though roaming by yourself is never a good option, since you risk getting jumped by either five angry jerks or a hundred of them.

PolishSausage.1279:

Any class and spec can work with a zerg. It all depends on what you want to do to contribute. Condition specs have a purpose, since they force enemy players to back off and blow their removal skills, keeping them off the front line, while burst damage specs help take out guards, lords, and enemy players that much faster. Meanwhile, support specs help keep your army in good shape, which I feel is a must since about 80% of the people in a zerg are idiots that just blindly follow whichever moron has the blue dorito.

Except for Thief, at least. Only thing they’re good at is running away.

Really, saw a vid of a thief kill 10 ppl in a zerg by using stealth to keep out of danger and then pop in to get the kill…./repeat.

Just because they aren’t in the train doesn’t mean they aren’t contributing. And a thief that can scout the enemy zerg is invaluable.

KeeZee.7312:

Really, saw a vid of a thief kill 10 ppl in a zerg by using stealth to keep out of danger and then pop in to get the kill…./repeat.

Just because they aren’t in the train doesn’t mean they aren’t contributing. And a thief that can scout the enemy zerg is invaluable.

Must have been some pretty bad players then. On SBI, if a Thief tries to do that with our army, he gets stomped almost immediately.

I’ll give you the scouting part, though.

PolishSausage.1279:

KeeZee.7312:

Really, saw a vid of a thief kill 10 ppl in a zerg by using stealth to keep out of danger and then pop in to get the kill…./repeat.

Just because they aren’t in the train doesn’t mean they aren’t contributing. And a thief that can scout the enemy zerg is invaluable.

Must have been some pretty bad players then. On SBI, if a Thief tries to do that with our army, he gets stomped almost immediately.

I’ll give you the scouting part, though.

Its a very chaotic situation where most are focussing on what they can see…..the zerg.

How good or bad a player is has nothing to do with their ability to see a thief in stealth.
Unless you have some special ability that no one else has I suspect you would be killed just like anyone else.

I know all the fights I have been in the Commander always tries to hit the other team in the middle to try and focus the soft targets in back first. Having thieves focus them would be a boon to any group composition. Allowing them to do what they do best and helping their team in the process.

I agree that the thief’s ability to “scout” and take out targets along the perimeter of the zerg adds a great deal but other than that role, what else can they do? The SB leaves a great deal to be desired. Still, it is nice to be able escape should you find yourself in a bad situation. Sometime I just wish my thief could do more against the enemy zerg than just spamming SB skills.

FinalPatriot.8034:

I agree that the thief’s ability to “scout” and take out targets along the perimeter of the zerg adds a great deal but other than that role, what else can they do? The SB leaves a great deal to be desired. Still, it is nice to be able escape should you find yourself in a bad situation. Sometime I just wish my thief could do more against the enemy zerg than just spamming SB skills.

The key is to take out “high threat” targets on the back line. You don’t necessarily even need to kill them. By putting pressure of Necros/eles just raining damage on your group will relieve a massive amount of damage. While it won’t get you the tags SB will get, it’s one of those jobs that i’ts usefulness out ways its rewards. Plus another thing is dagger storm is one of the best ways to split a zerg on its push. It very common right now for groups to run a heavy front line and ranged back line. By cutting them in half, your group can effectively wipe out there back line. While thieves are not the “best” for zerging, they can be useful.

FinalPatriot.8034:

I agree that the thief’s ability to “scout” and take out targets along the perimeter of the zerg adds a great deal but other than that role, what else can they do? The SB leaves a great deal to be desired. Still, it is nice to be able escape should you find yourself in a bad situation. Sometime I just wish my thief could do more against the enemy zerg than just spamming SB skills.

Every class has something they are good at that benefits their team in WvW.

I think the issue lies with you just don’t feel like you are contributing when in actuality you are.

Really,

Its about playstyle, I play an unusual out of the box warrior that can contribute to conditions, stun, and still has decent burst, great vitality, enough toughness, several get of jail free cards.

Typically, I run with the zerg, however, generally I cut through the enemy before the zerg decides to finally react. When a enemy zerg rolls in, I treat them like a lava bomb and then begin to fray their edge and lengthen their tail.

Alot of this playstyle comes to me because typically I play a rogue type.

Mold the play how you like regardless of if its percieved good or bad, its not necessarily about the points, but that its enjoyable.

Thief is to limited in my opinion compared to warrior, its the reason I leave the thief strictly as an extra bank at this point. Eventually they will expand thieves and it will be more my tune again.

folly dragon.4126:

Really,

Its about playstyle, I play an unusual out of the box warrior that can contribute to conditions, stun, and still has decent burst, great vitality, enough toughness, several get of jail free cards.

Typically, I run with the zerg, however, generally I cut through the enemy before the zerg decides to finally react. When a enemy zerg rolls in, I treat them like a lava bomb and then begin to fray their edge and lengthen their tail.

Alot of this playstyle comes to me because typically I play a rogue type.

Mold the play how you like regardless of if its percieved good or bad, its not necessarily about the points, but that its enjoyable.

Thief is to limited in my opinion compared to warrior, its the reason I leave the thief strictly as an extra bank at this point. Eventually they will expand thieves and it will be more my tune again.

If A-Net made it so a thief could play like the current thief and a warrior why would you need both of the classes?

Seems like you are promoting the homogenization of the classes WoW style. Everyone can do everything equally as good. One class to rule them all.

KeeZee.7312:

I think the issue lies with you just don’t feel like you are contributing when in actuality you are.

That’s probably the case.

Just wondering though, would something like this condi Thief Duel Pistol Unload + SB work well? It looks pretty darn fun considering the amount of conditions you can stack on a target.

FinalPatriot.8034:

KeeZee.7312:

I think the issue lies with you just don’t feel like you are contributing when in actuality you are.

That’s probably the case.

Just wondering though, would something like this condi Thief Duel Pistol Unload + SB work well? It looks pretty darn fun considering the amount of conditions you can stack on a target.

That is a perplexity thief. The main goal of a perplexity thief is to interrupt, the conditions are secondary outside of confusion. Perplexity thieves work best in small skirmishes or solo. If anyone knows different about that I would be keen to hear your vZerg results.

FinalPatriot.8034:

KeeZee.7312:

I think the issue lies with you just don’t feel like you are contributing when in actuality you are.

That’s probably the case.

Just wondering though, would something like this condi Thief Duel Pistol Unload + SB work well? It looks pretty darn fun considering the amount of conditions you can stack on a target.

If you can stack a ton of conditions then that will synergize well with necros. Get in a group with a necro and call targets. Adds a more engaged way of playing that definitely benefit the team.

Anyone who takes 30 minutes to hang out in a structure to call enemy attacks is benefitting the team even though it feels you are doing nothing.

Sometimes I would love to join and scout but I know the class I play isn’t really suited for that and accept it.

If you want to play like a warrior, play a warrior. You don’t role a thief and then ask they change the class to also be a warrior.

KeeZee.7312:

If you want to play like a warrior, play a warrior. You don’t role a thief and then ask they change the class to also be a warrior.

I actually rolled a warrior just to do the burst rifle build. Once I hit 80, I found it other than making some interesting Youtube video’s, it’s not really that viable. I went to the condi build and just didn’t enjoy it.

My thief was an alt I always enjoyed because if the crap it the fan, she could easily escape. I think I’ll just go with that duel pistol build as it was a ton of fun and pretty amazing in PvE as well.

I hear you KeeZee,

And I never stated I wanted warriors and thieves to be the same.

I merely said, “thieves werent as versatile for me as warriors are”.

Maybe it sounded that way however. My point was, you dont have to be like everyone else, just play how you like and have fun.

A few players may insist that there build may work in both situations (zerg and solo) and to an extent, that may be true. To build any class to be “effective” in both solo and zerg is possible, but only to very specific degrees.

I have had minimal success on warrior, guardian, necromancer, engineer and ranger trying to do what you have proposed above.

The conditions experienced in WvW can generally be broken into three main groups; Zerg, small group and solo respectively. Each of these can be broken into 2-3 sub-groups:

Zerg can be described as front line (survivability and CC, generally at the front of combat); back line or flank (high damage, lower survivability and often ranged or AOE damage); and support (healing, boon production, condition removal)

Small group can often be broken into precision attacks (cut supply routes or clear enemy stragglers) or general purpose (often termed “havocs”, used to capture camps and “ninja” towers)

Solo can be broken into Scout, Roamer (1v1 interested) or precision attacks (yaks). Also most players find themselves as an in-bound reinforcement on the way to one of the above mentioned groups.

Additionally; the above is only from an offensive perspective; we can omit defense as, any of the above organizations are able to apply defense of yaks, camps, towers and keeps to varying degrees of success.

It is nearly impossible to make a single build that is effective in all the above situations. You can make a build that will “survive” in all the above situations, but you will be hard pressed to deal sufficient damage to achieve successive kills. ANet has done a very good job (in my opinion) of allowing all of the classes to fit into one or more of the above mentioned roles. However, if one class and one build was capable of doing all of the above. It’s very likely that it would be the only class you would encounter in WvW after only a few months.

That being said, what do you consider being effective? “To outlast and kill 2 opponents while alone”; “To survive frontline in a zerg V/S zerg”; “To provide healing and condi clear to your group allowing them to survive the fight”; “To devastate an enemy Yak and evade a group”; “or simply to survive anything and everything while scouting”. You will not be able to do all the things I just put in “*” on one build. The largest problem with your question isn’t what role the build is filling but rather the expectation of what is (or isn’t) “effective” or what is (or isn’t) “contributing”. This answer will vary greatly depending on your server, your guild / regular WvW group and your individual level of play experience. So again, to build any class to be “effective” in both solo and zerg is possible, but only to very specific degrees.

folly dragon.4126:

I hear you KeeZee,

And I never stated I wanted warriors and thieves to be the same.

I merely said, “thieves werent as versatile for me as warriors are”.

Maybe it sounded that way however. My point was, you dont have to be like everyone else, just play how you like and have fun.

Good chance that’s just how I understood it. And I do feel thieves are very versatile. Thieves can still be front line but they are better suited to other roles that are just as useful.

In the end, lets all have fun….fight hard……and enjoy a beer afterwards and stop the excessive trash talking.

For zerging and soloing, the best professions with the most likelihood of having a good “hybrid” setup that works are engineer, ranger and warrior. They got decent zerg AOE/melee damage, and great survivability in duels/1vX

Prysin.8542:

For zerging and soloing, the best professions with the most likelihood of having a good “hybrid” setup that works are engineer, ranger and warrior. They got decent zerg AOE/melee damage, and great survivability in duels/1vX

And the difference of those 3 is engi solo takes mad skills unless you face trash competition.

i never said any of them was ezmode. If you want ezmode roll a warrior. Hammer + mace-shield and you’re good to go.

also, ranger in hybrid build is no walk in the park either, but engi is certainly harder to play in that sense.

My Technobabble build can do both equally as good.

The thing you’re not understanding about Zerging is the same thing most people don’t understand about zerging.

Its not about you doing the most damage or you being “useful” with utility, The only thing that matters in a zerg is how many people you can hit, and how often you can hit a large number of people.

Most Zerg fights are decided within seconds of the encounter, and its the side that pulls back first that is usually the loser because it causes your front line to basically falter with it happens.

Usually the Zerg with more people is the one that actually does the pushing as well…