Guild Wars 2

I haven’t seen any other topics on this. Crazy to me, since this has been my most hated mechanic in this game since Beta. Now… I know all the people running around in zergs, who can just nearly instantly rez one of their members, before the smaller team can kill any more like this mechanic. But seriously? What about the rest of us who nearly never have numbers? I’m not saying remove it, but change it so the smaller force has a chance. I promise you, when you’re fighting outnumbered, there’s absolutely zero chance of rezzing anyone.

1. This mechanic heavily favors the massive zerg. Being as they’re already the massive zerg, why are we adding insult to injury?

2. If someone dies in a fight, as-in, a fight that’s still going on, they should be dead, right? Atleast until one side has won, and the fight is over.

3. It really shatters the feeling of accomplishment, when you take 6-7 players into a massively outnumbering zerg, skillfully kill someone or a couple people, then manage to make it out alive to wait for cooldowns and healing up, while still kiting…. Just to turn around and see that person is rezzed already and trying to kill you again, and all you accomplished, was absolutely nothing.

That being said… I’d perfer rezzing while in combat to be flat out removed. I know the zerglings might complain about that, but at the very least give it a cooldown or something. People should only be able to rez everyone from completely dead, after the battle is won.

Edit: wanted to add this to the OP. proof

Well that does make hit and run tactics more useful especially on home borderlands. That also gives defenders an advantage by just spiking zergs members until there are no more. It is probably better the way it is atm. Personal opinion as I would rather have a more offensive map than a defensive one.

If people run, they’re opponent is out of combat, and can rez again. It wouldn’t change anything but the current fight, once someone runs, they’re all out of combat, and can rez again, same as always.

It wouldn’t support hit and run.

I actually really like this mechanic. I just think most unorganized groups don’t realize how important it is to rez players while they’re in a downed state.

I don’t actually get successfully rezed much of the time tbh. I successfully rez others because I always play rez builds, but it just goes to show what OP says isn’t much of a problem imo.

I think it’s a good mechanic, but the Zerg’s AOE protection just makes it too easy. Raise the target cap on AOEs and I think it’ll be fine.

Raise cap on AOE.

Double damage received when you’re resing someone.

It’s ridiculous to have someone stand in the AOE and just shrug off damage during a res.

I vote for removing/deleting Rez

Well said Balidore,

Downed State is detrimental to tactical play and just further strengthens the already stronger force.

You can’t “wear down” enemies because they can rezz each other so quickly.

Tactics become meaningless because unless you can wipe out a zerg completely, there no point in fighting them. In an extreme case you could wipe out all but one players…and 3 minutes later the entire Zerg would be back on their feet.

Direct Damage should really interrupt the rezzing process the same way it interrupt the self-rezz. That would address many issues I have with the downed state in both WvW and sPvP.

Rezzing someone in a downed state is actually more benificial to a small group of fighting people then a zerg.

If 2 zergs go at it there are to many AOE’s for someone to rezz another before the are killed and taken out of a downed state.

If it’s a small skirmish, then either side prodived they have people who know how to play their classes, would be able to rezz their people.

I’ve done this before, I am a glass cannon Ele, so 1-3hits and Im dead.
In a large zerg fight, no one can rezz me, and I cant rezz anyone due to all the aoe’s going off.
While in smaller fights I can rezz someone, or even have my tanky friend rezz me, while the players avoid “finishing me” and hit him instead.

downed state is utter garbage its starting to really get on my nerves how some classes get so many kitten inturrupts and get out of death free cards. I had two guys donwed and I ended up on my kitten from nearly full heal recently They both kept me interrupted couldnt do anything. I already won the kitten fight why should some classes op downed mechanics like thief and mesmer make this any worse.

Yeah guys theres no way a group of small players could ever do anything against a zerg! /endsarcasm

Get a guild, get good, have fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fD2teQTIs64

Why on earth would you fight 50 people with just 5-10 in an open field? Yes, defending a tower with low numbers, will have problems keeping the foe zerg at bay and killing them, that is why you use the chat. Communicate with your allies and call for help.

Yes, people can rez each other, that is why you and your allies have to make sure that you are the ones pushing forward and not letting your foes get to the downed bodies.
See some one trying to rez another? Use a knockdown/back skill.

Being able to rez each other in the middle of battle works fine, it brings another element to game play that makes you aware of the battle field and surroundings. It is not broken it does not ruin my fun. It makes me think and keeps me aware of what is going on around me instead of just spamming all my skills at once. I may save a knockdown skill because I know someone will try to rez the guy in front of me.

edit… and if they are in a down state? Run up to them and press the F key, pro tip ;-)

For the record…. This OP has nothing to do with downed.

This case is purely talking, someone completely dead.
Larger grp clearly holds the main part of the field in 90% of cases. It’s obviously a massive zerg advantage over the smaller numbers.

Also like to point out to people on here who are giving their opinion, yet have obviously never been outnumbered before… If you’re badly outnumbered, you don’t have time to stop and rez, period.

on the other hand when defending a keep you quickly have a pile of bodies when they swarm to rez and you just keep bombing that spot. it does have its drawbacks but all in all rezzing makes this game so much more new player friendly too.. it doesnt matter if you suck, players will give you another chance, you dont have to run every time you die… i love it and dont want to see any changes to it.

Seriously… This mechanic creates a skill cap in the game. I know most people won’t relate ont his. But I promise you, it’s literally impossible to kill more than 8 people at at time by urself. And it has nothing to do with not having the skill. It’s purely because the larger group can rez, faster than the solo or smaller group can kill.

It puts a limit on skill, in a pvp game, it needs to go.

I think it should be changed that once you are dead, not downed, you cannot be rezzed for at least 1 minute or it should take A LOT longer to rez someone who is completely dead.

I agree with the OP, people can be revived after death faster than you can kill someone and it overly benefits the zerg.

I personnaly hate the Downed State in pvp.

1- Make Zerging the only option. You can insta rrez people in a Zerg. And if you think it’s hard to do, just bring a decent guardian with you. Rez with immune shield on you = profit.

2- The balance between class downed state abilities is just awful. Seriously, I know when I’m fighting a thief,warrior,guardian or mesmer, I’m going to fight twice. Once to down him, and another time to finish him. Thief aren’t the worse, but kitten I hate mesmer. Hit like a truck, and can port when you try to finish them.

I never played warrior, but their auto attack downedstate hit even harder then mesmer. And when you can’t finish them right away, they can get back up? Can somoene explain me this ability? They rez all of suddent with 50% hp, but sometime they seems to die shortly after? I don’t know this one but I hate it too.

Guardian, those guy has an AoE pushback as 2nd skill? Come on ahahah. Engineer got the same thing on 3rd skill, they have to wait like 10 sec to use it.

On the other end, when I fight necro,elem or engineer, I know it won’t be hard.

I wouldn’t remove the downed state, but at least balance the kitten thing. Why does some class are so much better in downed state then other? Not like they have weakness making up for it during the fights. Mesmer thief and Guardian are prolly the FOTM class at the moment.

The downed mechanic is really a failure, I despise it completely.

you shouldn’t be able to kill 8 people at a time by yourself anyways unless they are really dumb and bunch up for your AOEs and stay there twiddling their thumbs. The only thing that I see this doing is giving a decisive advantage to defending groups. *immobilize**dmg spike* and repeat for next target. Widdling down large zergs easily. I would like the AOE person limit to affect everyone in the aoe and not just 5 people though. In a 50 person zerg those AOEs would effectively give an individual a 90% evasion rate assuming all 50 were in the AOE circle which is insane.

Downed state does not belong in PVP at all, for all the reasons the OP has listed.

I hate the entire mechanic with a passion to the point where I hope GW2 fails badly so that no other game will ever attempt to mimic this cheesy, annoying mechanic again.

Kardiamond, that ability for a downed warrior is called Vengence. It is like a 30sec “I am gonna kick your butt before I die completely” skill. I believe there is a trait that allows for vengence to rally a player if you kill something though but not positive.

I think it’s a good mechanic and an improvement over mechanics in other games where the team with the most healers is nigh unbeatable so people don’t get killed either. It can indeed suck if outnumbered, but if not it adds a layer of having to make choices (to avoid the word tactcis).

Someone downed np rez away, someone completely dead should have to release. No idea why it is the way it is.

+1 The current rez system favours the zerg. Agree with OP.

Aridia.3042:

Raise cap on AOE.

Double damage received when you’re resing someone.

It’s ridiculous to have someone stand in the AOE and just shrug off damage during a res.

Agree with both. Increased damage to the one who revives and removed cap on AoE targets need to be in otherwise there is too much room for exploits, i.e. the infamous singularity zerg where the entire zerg stands and moves as one, rendering everything thrown at them useless and generating lag for everyone on the map.

Few of my buddies quit the game, cuz of the stupid downed state and requested for me to let them know when its removed from the game. If a player’s health bard goes to 0, they’re dead no lying on the ground with health, dps, and the easy capability of coming back. The only reason I still play is bc I’m a thief and CnD on a downed person before finishing them gives me a lot more hope than any other class.

I believe in the anybody can rezz mechanic, but the player on the ground should be dead when their health reaches 0. In Daoc, I always ran with a 3-5 man group that had more brains than half the zergs we came up against. This brains, and skill, was rewarded by actually being able to wipe them rather than everyone beeing insta rezzed.

Nothing wrong with the system as far as I can tell.

In just about every battle in the last 4,000 years, the side with the larger force nearly always wins. The only time this isn’t true is when technology/resources plays an important role.

The same applies here. If you have 10 players, and are fighting a group of 50, why would you expect to win? If you got into a fight outside a bar, and you and two buddies were about to get jumped by a group of eight that didn’t appreciate something you said to them an hour ago, then personally I’d be preparing myself for an kitten kicking.

As mentioned above, the only reason I wouldn’t expect the zerg to walk it against a smaller group would be if they had technological (in this case golems or arrow carts) on their side. Keeps and castles have always (historically) been capture-able with a large enough force (in this case a ‘zerg’). Tactics and skill play a role, but the majority of time in real life, as well as in computer games, it’s a case of simple numbers. You have more, you’re more likely to win, exponentially.

I do agree with the AoE limits though. The code should check to see how many people are within a certain vicinity to one another. As it stands at the moment, if 50 people can effectively pile ontop of one another, they become pretty invulnerable as the AoE maths is fundamentally flawed, and only a couple of them will take damage.

The more people stood right next to each other, the more people should get effected from the AoE. Dynamic limits are the way to go. Applying a static function (5 player AoE limit) to a dynamic variable (the number of people within the AoE) is never a good idea if something is meant to be balanced and fair. Just ask any statistician. That’s why income taxation is staggered, and not just set to a static amount.

TL;DR: Combat rezzing is fine as it is. Peoples assumption that 10 players should be able to put up a decent fight against a group of 50 is what the issue is.

EDIT: Just as an aside, as the game has no dedicated healers, then as someone else said; this isn’t really any different to playing WoW and having three druids constantly healing their seven warrior buddies. They’re just as invincible (if not more so). People are always going to QQ about things they don’t like when it rubs them the wrong way.

If you don’t like it, you should adjust your tactics so that that disadvantage and weakness becomes your advantage and strength. That’s what tactics are really all about, realising why you fail, and incorporating it to your own strategies so you don’t lose to it again.

I already get plenty of kills against rezzers, would love for Anet to up the AoE cap.

Stonehenge.7830:

Kardiamond, that ability for a downed warrior is called Vengence. It is like a 30sec “I am gonna kick your butt before I die completely” skill. I believe there is a trait that allows for vengence to rally a player if you kill something though but not positive.

Thanks man, I hate that ability with pation

People should be able to save someone while they’re in the downed state, but once you’re dead… you’re dead. You should be forced to respawn at a waypoint or just lay there.

/support

It can be easily fixed by allowing only one person to rez you or making the timer the same for everyone regardless of how many people are helping. I agree that a zerg makes combat rezzing a bit ridiculous. Only allowing one person to rez would give tiny group of defenders a fighting chance to eliminate the zerg dry humping their walls.

I haven’t, to be honest, noticed this to be a problem. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen plenty of combat-rezzing of defeated players in WvW. However one little thing I like to do is keep an eye on them and burn them right when they’re rezzed at half health. I also tend to stay on a downed players until defeated. If others manage to revive him, well done on their part I say.

Combat rezzing creates a skill cap on how well a player, or group of players can do. This is a pvp game. I don’t see why the conversation would ever even need to go farther than that. Having a direct skill cap, in a pvp based game, is wrong.

There is diminishing returns. A solo player should have diminishing returns against larger numbers, hence a “soft cap” on how many players a person can reasonably solo. The more opponents the exponentially harder it should get.

Balidore.2790:

Combat rezzing creates a skill cap on how well a player, or group of players can do. This is a pvp game. I don’t see why the conversation would ever even need to go farther than that. Having a direct skill cap, in a pvp based game, is wrong.

I have to admit I don’t see this. If the numbers are close you’re not going to stop to combat rez someone unless you want a big, juicy target on your back. If the numbers are so imbalanced that combat rezzing is easy to accomplish then it’s really irrelevant to the fight as a whole.

You can use combat rezzing against the team doing it. They’re taking themselves out of the fight to try and rez someone, and if successful the person rezzed is at half health. There are opportunities to be had!

VOLKON.1290:

Balidore.2790:

Combat rezzing creates a skill cap on how well a player, or group of players can do. This is a pvp game. I don’t see why the conversation would ever even need to go farther than that. Having a direct skill cap, in a pvp based game, is wrong.

I have to admit I don’t see this. If the numbers are close you’re not going to stop to combat rez someone unless you want a big, juicy target on your back. If the numbers are so imbalanced that combat rezzing is easy to accomplish then it’s really irrelevant to the fight as a whole.

You can use combat rezzing against the team doing it. They’re taking themselves out of the fight to try and rez someone, and if successful the person rezzed is at half health. There are opportunities to be had!

You’re missing what I’m sayin. in 10v30. Example… the 10 kill 3 people, they’re still fighting 27, 7 stop to rez the 3 in a few secs, while the 10 are still fighting 20…. then it’s back to where it began. 10v30, even though the 10 are better, killed more, and deserve to win.
This chain continues.. till the 10 r just flat out overwhelmed by never being able to accomplish anything because of this mechanic.

side note @ some guy above. Yes, I have fought 1v8 on open ground, and I’ll tell u what happened…. I killed 1, kept fighting, 2-3 rezzed the 1 while i fought the others, just as i killed another, they kept rezzing, and had him/her up before i could kill the next one. Literally, fully killed atleast 5 or more, but since they kept rezzing the entire time with their numbers, I never got anywhere. When I finally died, they were all alive.

This is why I’m saying it creates a skill cap. A player is not allowed to progress in skill past the point of numbers that combat rez eachother constantly.

Balidore.2790:

VOLKON.1290:

Balidore.2790:

Combat rezzing creates a skill cap on how well a player, or group of players can do. This is a pvp game. I don’t see why the conversation would ever even need to go farther than that. Having a direct skill cap, in a pvp based game, is wrong.

I have to admit I don’t see this. If the numbers are close you’re not going to stop to combat rez someone unless you want a big, juicy target on your back. If the numbers are so imbalanced that combat rezzing is easy to accomplish then it’s really irrelevant to the fight as a whole.

You can use combat rezzing against the team doing it. They’re taking themselves out of the fight to try and rez someone, and if successful the person rezzed is at half health. There are opportunities to be had!

You’re missing what I’m sayin. in 10v30. Example… the 10 kill 3 people, they’re still fighting 27, 7 stop to rez the 3 in a few secs, while the 10 are still fighting 20…. then it’s back to where it began. 10v30, even though the 10 are better, killed more, and deserve to win.
This chain continues.. till the 10 r just flat out overwhelmed by never being able to accomplish anything because of this mechanic.

It’s forcing a skill cap on pvprs

Ah, I see what you’re saying… but I admit to not seeing the reality in it. In battles as you describe I’ve seen two things happen. First, the 10 get rolled over and dispersed by superior numbers. The second, the 30 turn tail and run when someone or two goes down. (That happens more than you realize… it’s quite comical.) But 10 on 30 with both teams standing their ground and the 10 not being the team to drop… haven’t seen that happen yet. Regardless, if the aggressors the 10 took a tactical gamble going against 30, hoping the shock of the attack would get them to break and run. You don’t take on three times your number and expect to fight to a draw with no one dying. If the defenders (without siege), the 10 should expect to lose. Maybe they put up a good fight, but still. This isn’t putting an arbitrary cap on skill, it’s just reality.

I like the ress system as it is now. sure it sucks when you dont get anything for downing a player. and not having the opportunity to finish him/her off.

It’s not reality. I’ve won 3v10. I’ve won 1v6. And I’ve won 9v20-25. It does happen, in my groups, we do it. But that’s the max, after that, they can constantly rez eachother faster than we can kill them, No matter how bad they suck, they simply can’t lose because they can rez faster than they can die. It’s a skill cap, this is a pvp game, it shouldn’t exist.

Not to mention… why ‘should’ it exist? Everything, everyone here has said, that have an opinion aginst it, says they feel it makes no difference in most battles, so why not give this one to the outnumbered people who perfer to use skill over zergs? It’s clearly not hurting the zerg. In fact, the only viable arguement is that it helps the zerg even more. So why make a skill cap on pvprs that want to get better?

Reizak.2583:

Nothing wrong with the system as far as I can tell.

In just about every battle in the last 4,000 years, the side with the larger force nearly always wins. The only time this isn’t true is when technology/resources plays an important role.

Well, if you want to go all history scholar on us, in just about every battle in the last 4,000 years, I’m pretty sure dead people stayed dead.

Reizak.2583:

As mentioned above, the only reason I wouldn’t expect the zerg to walk it against a smaller group would be if they had technological (in this case golems or arrow carts) on their side. Keeps and castles have always (historically) been capture-able with a large enough force (in this case a ‘zerg’). Tactics and skill play a role, but the majority of time in real life, as well as in computer games, it’s a case of simple numbers. You have more, you’re more likely to win, exponentially.

So given that the side with numbers is already ‘exponentially’ more likely to win due to numbers alone, does it make sense for the game overall to have a mechanic which favors them even more?

Also, this is a game, it is not RL, nor is it meant to be an accurate simulation of RL. The whole ‘X is true in RL therefore X should necessarily be true in gaming’ argument is completely false … I can go into why but I think most people understand why already.

Reizak.2583:

EDIT: Just as an aside, as the game has no dedicated healers, then as someone else said; this isn’t really any different to playing WoW and having three druids constantly healing their seven warrior buddies. They’re just as invincible (if not more so). People are always going to QQ about things they don’t like when it rubs them the wrong way.

… So the game has no dedicated healers (by design), then you say this particular mechanic is like having dedicated healers (lol), which is like WoW, which makes it OK. Can you spot the flaw(s) in this reasoning?

Need to separate rezzing from downed. I have no issue with getting downed players back up by teammates, what sucks is rezzing already dead bodies. Make downed state longer lasting if you need to but get rid of this rezzing nonsense of dead people.

I agree, when I kill someone I shouldn’t have to kill them again 2x-3×. And when you’re going up against a zerg and manage to kill someone, only to see them get immediately rezzed – its deflating.

I can’t believe you guys are complaining about this. Serously. I have been outmanned many times, to the point I couldn’t leave the citadel so its’ not that at all.

You’re not even talking about downed state but dead….do you know HOW MUCH longer is takes to rez a dead player than downed??? (and that why if rezzing you should always try to run over and rez a downed player because once they’re dead its so much more hassle).

Guess what, if you’re fighting a 30 man zerg with 7 people YOU WILL MOST LIKELY LOSE, that’s not because of rezzing, it’s because of common sense and math. Its not impossibly, but highly improbable. 30 people SHOULD BE able to kill 7.

Lets say you have 10 fokls fighting 30 and you kill 3 of theirs…now it takes 1 or more people per dead person, some non arbitrary amount of time, to rez them….effectively taking them out the battle. If you killed those 3 guys and now you’re in trouble and on CD…what you think now 10 vs 27 all of a sudden means you’re not getting stomped? No, so you’re actually better off having 4-5 people rez those guys so you’re fighting 10 on 22 for a bit. There’s a cost associated, those people rezzing are just sitting there taking damage and not dealing any out. So they’re paying a price to rez that guy and you’re fighting less people for a while. But you’re not even thinking about that, you’d rather complain about something that is a total non issue.

Trimethicon.7405:

I agree, when I kill someone I shouldn’t have to kill them again 2x-3×. And when you’re going up against a zerg and manage to kill someone, only to see them get immediately rezzed – its deflating.

I agree. I do not have an issue with combat resurrection, but rather how easy it is to chain res someone.

Perhaps there could be a limit to how many times someone can be res’d while in WvW/sPVP before they’re flat-out dead? Or maybe the more someone gets downed it takes more time to resurrect them while in combat?

I like the way combat rezing is now, but aoe boons not being limited to 5 players inside the circumference needs to change. The stacking mechanic is too powerful for defense, if it is going to be limited offensively it should be equally limited defensively. That alone would help out smaller groups as they can intelligently stack and not be rolled by groups that inadvertently stack boons due to numbers.

I personally love the downed mechanic and think it is a great addition to the game. It creates all kind of depth in both WvW and sPvP. If you are having problems finishing people than you just need to bring a thief and learn the fine art of stealth stomping.. My role in WvW is to run at the fringes picking people off and finishing them through stealth stomps.

Even though the downed mechanic is pointless and is pro-zerg, it’s unlikely it will change. Why u ask? Let’s think about it. Everyone in this topic who is pro-downed state for easy rezzes are more than likely zerg surfers who can’t even begin to fathom how to take on a 1v5 or basicly any fight where they’re outnumbered. How many are there against us who can’t stand the downed state? Well…a zerg….

After an extensive amount of time I’ve spent playing WvW, I’ve come to one important conclusion.

If you cannot push forward, you will not win.

This rule has been true in nearly every battle I’ve experienced. As soon as your enemy begins to flee, you’ve won, but until then, you haven’t. If an army is slamming on the gates of a tower and kills everyone on top of the wall, but has no siege to knock down a gate properly, then they aren’t pushing forward nor are they winning. Likewise, if you are cutting up an attacking zerg with a mass of arrowcarts, but that catapult is still slamming on your wall, you will lose the fight unless you push forward and drive the enemy out.

The same idea goes for smaller scale skirmishes. The inclusion of the ability to revive down or defeated players means you have to secure your kills. Don’t give the enemy the opportunity to revive. Down or kill some people, then push forward for the stomp. Push your opponents back so they can’t even think about reviving without walking into certain death. There’s many ways to ensure a guaranteed stomp, whether it be stability, stealth, invulnerability, or even blind. CC people to prevent them from picking up downed players long enough to move in and secure the kill. It also takes twice as long to revive defeated players while in combat, which means that you should have enough time to kill any reviver 5 times over.

If your fighting against numbers that outweigh yours by so much that they are capable of holding your entire group back as they send 10 people around fully reviving completely defeated players, you should never expect to win that fight. I don’t understand why people believe they can fight 3v15 and still win. Even if your opponents have half the skill you do, they can dish out 5 times more damage, CC, and conditions that you can. Smaller numbers battles can go either way, but you’re a fool if you 100% believe that you can fight 5 times your numbers and come out on top more often than not.

Who derailed my thread? lol.

This has nothing to do with downed state.
This is purely speaking dead, fully dead.
This is purely speaking, while still in combat.

The suggestions were…
Limit amount of combat rezzes, per time in combat.
Add a cooldown to combat rezzing.
Or remove it, and you can only rez if you’re out of combat status.

edit: Quit saying it’s not possible, because it is. You can’t argue a fact, and the fact is, it’s been done. Problem being… then the same poeple come back, and realize they can rez all day, and the lower numbers can’t, cuz they have to keep moving to fight and live. If you’re only argument is “I don’t think it’s possible anyway.” Then you’ve been proven wrong. Use something logic, or just stop.