Guild Wars 2

I had this idea in another thread, but I think it’s snowed under there, and it might be an interesting way to combat the coverage problem we all seem to endure… So please let me know what you think

;tldr : Use a ‘relative’ value for PPT of camp/towers/keeps on enemy territory based upon the % of the current active players on each server, compared to each other.

So this is how that could work:
1. The points for each camp/tower/keep gets increased by x100.
2. At any given time the server tracks the amount of players of each server logged into WvW (this means ALL players of your server, in ALL areas, so an outnumbered buff on one map does not trigger this imbalance saveguard, given you have enough players elsewhere).
3. The server calculates: Server Home / Server Attack * 100% (with a max of 100%, a minimum could also be set)
4. When awarding PPT on the tick, the server uses that % to determine the value of a camp/tower/keep based upon the amount of players on both servers.
‘5’ ‘Home’ = each servers’ corner in EB; each ‘corner’ on opposing BL’s (tower & side camp); Rest of camps/towers/keeps on own server BL.
it might be interesting to put Bay/Hills on home BL belong to ‘home’ of the opposing forces
‘6’ SMC belongs to no one, and always rewards 100%;

add While a bit more complicated to program, this could also be used to set scoring for largely outnumbered servers to >100% or set a base scoring of roughly equal to 75% while outnumbered gives >75upto100% scoring.

ps. Now that scores for points are x100, there is more then enough room to make camps/towers/keep increase in PPT value with consecutive upgrades.

This would make holding your own stuff worth 100% all the time; Holding Enemy Stuff on the tick would reward roughly 100% if the amount of players on each side is equal (or if you are outnumbered). Yet! If you yourself outnumber your opponent, the value of stuff you take on your opposing side is worth considerably less! YET! Taking stuff is still worth it, because now at least your opponent doesn’t get 100% …

Linked to upgrades, this also means that making something paper rewards almost nothing if you outnumber opponent, and upgrading is worth it to squeeze out more points. Would also possibly make it worth holding stuff on the weak 3rd side, while two other servers still have a high attendance.

Personally I think this would entirely change strategy on WvW, it will not reward Coverage imbalance, yet, it does reward a highly defensive strategy if largely outnumbered. The incentive to cap stuff is still there, but now in ‘point denial’ for your opponents, and recapping your stuff is also worth it (you will likely receive more PPT to recap a flipped keep when highly outnumbered, than a attacking force will gain in PPT for holding it, which is the incentive to holding it).

This will keep the options to really take a lead during off hours of your opponents to a minimum, and upgrading opponents stuff is worth it to squeeze out more PPT, and also making it harder for your opponent to recap. I will not deem it to revolutionize WvW, but it seems the most straight forward way to make a slightly more balanced WvW match that relies less heavily on coverage.

disclaimer if this has already been proposed by someone (props to you! great minds think alike and all that jazz), and discussed; I would love to know what thoughts on it were, and I obviously do not know all the things ever suggested on this matter…

Ahh by great minds think alike you are talking to about almost every person who has played more than 10+ hours of WvW.

The issue is instead of encouraging people to join in on WvW you encourage an elitist attitude among players who will verbally abuse others who “are not pulling enough weight”. And the pestering of noobs to “get off [their] map”.

It sounds like it would also encourage two relatively equal, relatively stronger servers to attack each other and not just gang up on the 3rd weaker/less populated server.

If it does that, it would be the best thing to happen to PPT since its inception.

I think similar ideas have been proposed actually. But it always comes down to someone thinking that you’re “punishing” them for playing during “non-prime” time. Which I think is a ridiculous argument but there are a lot of people, including Anet, who think like that.

IMO PPT is a symptom of population/coverage not the problem to solve. PPT balancing solutions is sort of like having high blood pressure due to a disease and only treating the blood pressure.

Kai.9182:

Ahh by great minds think alike you are talking to about almost every person who has played more than 10+ hours of WvW.

I lol’ed at this, but then…

The issue is instead of encouraging people to join in on WvW you encourage an elitist attitude among players who will verbally abuse others who “are not pulling enough weight”. And the pestering of noobs to "get off [their] map".

say what? please elaborate?

Straegen.2938:

IMO PPT is a symptom of population/coverage not the problem to solve. PPT balancing solutions is sort of like having high blood pressure due to a disease and only treating the blood pressure.

Well the desease is having a WvW format anyways, and removing it isn’t exactly what I would like to see happen? Unless you would have another thought behind what ‘the desease’ is, in which case I would love to hear it…

Johje Holan.4607:

It sounds like it would also encourage two relatively equal, relatively stronger servers to attack each other and not just gang up on the 3rd weaker/less populated server.

If it does that, it would be the best thing to happen to PPT since its inception.

I think similar ideas have been proposed actually. But it always comes down to someone thinking that you’re “punishing” them for playing during “non-prime” time. Which I think is a ridiculous argument but there are a lot of people, including Anet, who think like that.

Well if anything they wouldn’t venture as much by going after the 3rd weaker one, then going after each other. Still, going after the weaker one first would still be the course of action due to point denial being part of it too… but it does make it more likely they will go after each others stuff next, because more points can be scored by going after ‘currently’ equally represented servers.

Don’t really get the ‘punishing’ part, sounds more like a ‘but I don’t want my easy and unfair advantage taken away from me ’reason’’ instead.

Arghore.8340:

Well the desease is having a WvW format anyways, and removing it isn’t exactly what I would like to see happen? Unless you would have another thought behind what ‘the desease’ is, in which case I would love to hear it…

In my analogy “high blood pressure” is the score and the disease is coverage/population imbalance. We can adjust the score all day long but it won’t fix the crappy fights from coverage/population imbalances.

As to my “fix”. I would suggest moving away from server v server systems and towards a guild grouping system. Guilds could ally with other guilds as well as declare war on them regardless of server. Based on a weighting system matchups would be constructed to align guilds that are friendly against enemy guilds as well as weighting the typical play time and duration of each guild. This way each week is a new matchup for players and the matches can be much more even. The score will work itself out in this system.

Straegen.2938:

IMO PPT is a symptom of population/coverage not the problem to solve. PPT balancing solutions is sort of like having high blood pressure due to a disease and only treating the blood pressure.

no

The issue is instead of encouraging people to join in on WvW you encourage an elitist attitude among players who will verbally abuse others who “are not pulling enough weight”. And the pestering of noobs to "get off [their] map".

say what? please elaborate?

Basically players will pester others to leave the map so they can boost their own points they could acquire.

Example when using a point system that boosts the score of weaker server.
We currently have 60% of this map capped [YAY!]. It is currently 50 of us versus 40 of them. “We THINK we are considerably better than our opponents and we don’t need these 10 other people on our team as they are boosting our enemies point values.” “YOU THERE. Yeah you on the upscale ranger leave WvW NOW!”

In hindsight the idea is good, but any concept where excluding players makes other players get more power/loot/xp/points triggers some nasty instincts in humans.

Well at first, it would be dang hard to make people leave, the most basic answer is ‘well if you think it’s so important, YOU leave’ … and really, it’s more likely that people will actually switch servers at some point, IF a server has this elite attitude, seeing a lot of WvW is still a numbers game, doesn’t that then weaken the elite server, and strengthen another.

Second would be, 40/50 is still 80% of the base score (of a wooden structure, given that upgrades are to influence scoring as well). Now it gets more ‘interesting’ to pester people away if it’s like 10 vs 60. But then you would have to get rid of say 40 people to get to a 50% base score, instead of 16%, first of all hardly possible. But 10vs20 is still a bit more fair than 10vs60… You will be able to capture less structures, and it will be easier to recap. Also defending will be easier, as less supply can be carried …

Now sure, I can somewhere see your point, but I doubt that attitude would do ‘any’ good to your server community, and if it would then if anything it balances the fighting more, which is the basic aim of the system…

Hmm only 3 people have a thought about this solution? makes me wonder if people are really that interested in solving it?

Or you are beating a dead horse that has been dismembered, crushed, reduced to pulp then burned over a dozen times already ?

Pretty much all you “geniuses” getting ideas to “save” WvW right now are only rehashing variations of things that has been discussed time and time again in DOZENS of threads (the last time it was in the CDI too).

So nobody cares anymore, and there is no point into rehashing the SAME arguments about the SAME flaws and problems, and the SAME way to exploit/grief your “solutions” (they are pretty much ALL bad or worse).

Feature patch in 2018: “we’ve decided to improve the PPT system for season 10”
“Also adding trap mastery, with 500 rank points you can place a supply trap 10% faster.”

And finally, “2 new tag colors, only for 500g!”

@Filovirus, not everybody was a part of the CDI, or ‘previous’ solutions, and so far the only thing I heard as to why this is a ‘bad’ solution is that maybe it would create a toxic atmosphere where people want others to leave… which:
1. Is dang hard, ‘you leave!’
2. Which hurts you in the long run, as they won’t be around when you do need them.
3. Which may well balance things out, as people move to an unwelcome full server to a server that welcomes them when ever they show up…

So what else is there? Other then perhaps the realisation that most WvW players do not want it solved? that they are just fine with uneven odds and easy coverage wins?

There is (a badly working ok but still existing) search function on the forums.

Just going back 3/4 pages you’ll find 3/4 “suggestions” and “mighty ideas” like that debated to Hell and back.

And once again, PUNISHING people for playing together is the LAST thing you want.

And your “solution” don’t solve coverage problem AT ALL, it just makes people not want to play because their participation doesn’t count. It creates the worst possible toxic environnement and manipulations (there WILL be those, and not on a small scale, just take Wintergrasp in WoW WotLK as an exemple, and the same zone in Cata, servers and guilds were trying to game the event all day long by limiting people joining and making it guild groups to abuse the buff being outnumbered was giving, guilds were bullying other players all day long and made them pariahs on their own server when they didn’t obey in seconds and so on), on top of NOT SOLVING ANYTHING.

And it’s not even taking into account the dozens of PvE/PvP players using WvW as a place to move easily to LA, use the TP/Banks/Crafting Stations/Merchants without porting to a city/camp, and go back to where they came from.

The bigger the PvE/PvP population of the server, the more they get punished by your system even if there is actually a handfull of people playing WvW at that time.

It’s a broken solution, like all other “solutions” to coverage/ppt/unbalanced population/zergs/blobs/whatever.
Stop beating a dead horse, it’s useless.

Solving coverage isn’t something that’s going to happen unless :
- you remove ppt PERIOD (and even that don’t solve coverage at all, it solve part of the consequences at best)
- you remove the ability to play WvW “off hours” (for whom ? where ? what will the people NOT playing at those times do ? GTFO and stay away from WvW or change they whole life around WvW in GW2.. be serious)
- you change the npcs/objectives to make them more resilient/easier to defend/able to defend themselves against small numbers to avoid the whole “we have 10/20 more people than you at night and flip everything”
- you merge the whole NA/EU parts into one WvW entity so there isn’t that much variations in coverage over servers, with people from EU/NA/Ocx/SEA on all servers

and every single one of those ideas bring it’s THRONG of problems and unbalance in it’s wake.

Get over it, PPT/Coverage unbalance won’t ever be fixed in GW2, the mere design of WvW in GW2 (permanent mu with no downtime all resolving around players) makes it that way.

Honestly the “coverage wars” isn’t the main problem of WvW right now, the main problem is the insanely unbalanced population first.

Solve that, and the coverage problem will be far more important, and most people won’t care about it, rest is accessory, and it won’t happen anyway, so why bother rehashing again and again and again ?

Take it simply, if you have a “great” idea about WvW to solve it all, it’s been posted dozen of times already, and killed/crushed/burned/debunked/put to rest 10000+ times already.

Xillllix.3485:

Feature patch in 2018: “we’ve decided to improve the PPT system for season 10”
“Also adding trap mastery, with 500 rank points you can place a supply trap 10% faster.”

And finally, “2 new tag colors, only for 500g!”

No1 will be playing the game by 2016.

@Filovirus, tnx for giving me somewhat of a rehash, guess that wasn’t such a big deal after all, or was it? Now a little less personal frustration directed at objective and non related ‘me’ and we might have some sort of respectful discussion going on… but seeing your personal stance I don’t think either of us would like to bother with that, still though, tnx for your response.