Guild Wars 2

You all know what I mean, at some point or another your server has had a commander that has been able to rally people and run effective WvW groups and everyone in the server knows. I can think of 3-4 such commanders from my server like this.

Then something happens, the commander just disappears. One of the main causes of this is that the commander simply gets burned out. It’s one of the reasons I don’t command in WvW much anymore, the monotonous grind eventually just burns you out as you HAVE to command for an extensive amount of time on the same stale maps. In most cases the commanders then either change servers or leave the game entirely. So how do we resolve this?

Well, obviously one of the answers is ask the devs to shake up the maps a little kittenange them and what have you. But until that happens, if it ever does, what happens then? I was thinking about this and thought to myself “Self, with all the people who bought tags before the feature patch while they were still relatively cheap, how is it that a commander has to work things by him/herself?” I’ve seen one commander moving between EB and the BLs because no one else tags up. So why aren’t people tagging up then if we have so many tags and so few commanders?

Well obviously a tag does not a commander make. I also am aware that some people got the tag as a “just in case” they ever want to try it. Now I don’t know how it is in other servers but perhaps one of these solutions to “Commanders getting burned out” is to simply train new commanders. Even if they start at “second-string” commanders they are there to tag up if the current tag needs a break.

So please, if you have a tag but are not sure whether to use it, contact your local commander and follow him/her, watch what he/she does and ask any questions you have. And please, if you see a new tag or someone who recently got one with questions, answer and be as helpful as possible, everyone wins. Obviously they aren’t going to be your server’s best commanders overnight but every commander starts somewhere so just be helpful and welcoming and give them a chance, save the current commanders from burning out. And remember, ask not what your new commanders can do for you, but what you can do for your new commanders.

I’m Asthelion Darkstar and I approve this message. (felt necessary)

Oh yes, that is quite an issue. My server is utterly helpless without a tag and if not for people spending tireless hours commanding it would have easily went under. That has unfortunately led to burnout of many fine wvw’ers who sadly have grown resentful of followers, although this is true of many dedicated wvw’ers who care about winning. In the end this has lead to my server— SBI— being unable to retain serious wvw groups that are willing to uphold this burden on many occasions.

Getting other people to lead is hard because your average pug isn’t going to let you use them as a training exercise. :p And sadly that means they’ll only follow whoever reliably gets them loot and thus new tags often get shunned or shouted out. A pity really. People will cry for tags, and then only want a tag they want.

IMO, the worst aspect of a lot of gw2 gameplay is that it encourages complacency because working harder doesn’t really get rewarded anyways. Adding in to the need for instant gratification that is so prevalent in this day and age means there’s no patience or understanding for others.

So why not just half heartedly set 1 to autoattack and hide in a blob rather than taking initiative and being insulted every time you make a mistake? Plus a lot of people probably don’t want to bother with ordering over voice coms which I feel is sort of needed. In the end, the many in wvw owe a ton to the few, and that leads to burnout.

In any case, I agree with pretty much your entire post.

ArchonWing.9480:

Oh yes, that is quite an issue. My server is utterly helpless without a tag and if not for people spending tireless hours commanding it would have easily went under. That has unfortunately led to burnout of many fine wvw’ers who sadly have grown resentful of followers, although this is true of many dedicated wvw’ers who care about winning. In the end this has lead to my server— SBI— being unable to retain serious wvw groups that are willing to uphold this burden on many occasions.

You guys certainly held your own during the season when we were matched against you, I tip my hat to you good sir

Btw… “kittenange” is supposed to be “change”… good censorship anet… :p

Hello all. I got the game on release, but had to step away because of real life work and that eating up all my time. I only point this out because I think I really am the random pug guy that was referenced. I can’t speak for everyone obviously but I personally don’t care who is leading. I didn’t come back and jump into WvW only to follow a dorrito around the map, and I honestly didn’t know what that meant for a day or so after seeing it.

As long as the group is having fun and getting into some good fights I don’t see it as an issue that the person leading the group doesn’t have the icon above their head. I think the players will rally behind anyone who is making an effort.

I am a new Commander….bought the Pin before the 200g price raise…I’d like to pin up and work as a subordinate to a more seasoned commander…I wish we had the capability to have a more robust command and control system….a primary “General” with 3-4 commanders under them.

Grimkor.9147:

Hello all. I got the game on release, but had to step away because of real life work and that eating up all my time. I only point this out because I think I really am the random pug guy that was referenced. I can’t speak for everyone obviously but I personally don’t care who is leading. I didn’t come back and jump into WvW only to follow a dorrito around the map, and I honestly didn’t know what that meant for a day or so after seeing it.

As long as the group is having fun and getting into some good fights I don’t see it as an issue that the person leading the group doesn’t have the icon above their head. I think the players will rally behind anyone who is making an effort.

That’s an optimistic viewpoint. Having been a commander for some time now, I can say not all people are so “forgiving.” I’ve definitely led my zerg to plenty of wipes and also led them to cap most of the map in our color. In my experience, a vast majority of people on GW2 tend to be “fairweather players” that will stick with you once it’s great but as soon as you make a mistake, will claim they’ve been against you from the beginning.

The good news is that on your server, people are a little more forgiving because it’s actually more of a community than EotM where I do most of my commanding now. This allows for more forgiveness for the tag and for more people willing to help.

Sreoom.3690:

I am a new Commander….bought the Pin before the 200g price raise…I’d like to pin up and work as a subordinate to a more seasoned commander…I wish we had the capability to have a more robust command and control system….a primary “General” with 3-4 commanders under them.

That sounds like a great idea that you should coordinate with a commander of your server. Your signature says you’re JQ so I can’t imagine you have a shortage of wvw-ers. If you have a commander in your guild just run with him/her and maybe serve as a “dispatch” meaning if the Big Kahuna commander is in EB and your BL needs a little tidy-ing up, you can be dispatched with some people to go take care of it. I don’t know how JQ works because that’s a Gold ranked server but yeah coordinate that with some commanders you feel would be more receptive to trying that out.

It’s even harder for pugmanders playing outside of NA prime. I tend to be able to rally a decent size zerg for OCX prime (in comparison to our competition), but that usually peaks at around 25 people before dropping off when SEA starts as guilds start their raids. When other people try without a guild group behind them, they’re lucky to rally 10 players.

People like familiarity. If you tag up constantly, then people will recognise your tag and follow you.

X Factor.2641:

Grimkor.9147:

Hello all. I got the game on release, but had to step away because of real life work and that eating up all my time. I only point this out because I think I really am the random pug guy that was referenced. I can’t speak for everyone obviously but I personally don’t care who is leading. I didn’t come back and jump into WvW only to follow a dorrito around the map, and I honestly didn’t know what that meant for a day or so after seeing it.

As long as the group is having fun and getting into some good fights I don’t see it as an issue that the person leading the group doesn’t have the icon above their head. I think the players will rally behind anyone who is making an effort.

That’s an optimistic viewpoint. Having been a commander for some time now, I can say not all people are so “forgiving.” I’ve definitely led my zerg to plenty of wipes and also led them to cap most of the map in our color. In my experience, a vast majority of people on GW2 tend to be “fairweather players” that will stick with you once it’s great but as soon as you make a mistake, will claim they’ve been against you from the beginning.

The good news is that on your server, people are a little more forgiving because it’s actually more of a community than EotM where I do most of my commanding now. This allows for more forgiveness for the tag and for more people willing to help.

Not sure how anyone would know my server unless I just don’t know the forums well, but I’m on Yaks Bend and I do find the people there to be a good group at least during the times I play. I haven’t done much yet so I don’t have a lot of play time to pull that opinion from yet. I just tend to follow the blob and hope we meet another blob and have a war.

I haven’t done EotM yet.

Grimkor.9147:

Not sure how anyone would know my server unless I just don’t know the forums well, but I’m on Yaks Bend and I do find the people there to be a good group at least during the times I play. I haven’t done much yet so I don’t have a lot of play time to pull that opinion from yet. I just tend to follow the blob and hope we meet another blob and have a war.

I haven’t done EotM yet.

I was generalizing, servers in general know and recognize their players so they’re usually more forgiving. EotM… different story

Reverence.6915:

It’s even harder for pugmanders playing outside of NA prime. I tend to be able to rally a decent size zerg for OCX prime (in comparison to our competition), but that usually peaks at around 25 people before dropping off when SEA starts as guilds start their raids. When other people try without a guild group behind them, they’re lucky to rally 10 players.

People like familiarity. If you tag up constantly, then people will recognise your tag and follow you.

T’is true, and maybe that’s one way new commanders can get involved but it also is on the zerg to accept the tag and help if the tag needs it and not to simply criticize. As a human race, we’re very good at criticism however that’s not doing anyone any favors when trying to get new commanders to become veteran commanders. Constructive criticism sure but simply saying “Commander fail” or “Noob Commander” isn’t going to get anywhere and it won’t save the veteran commanders form burning out. It is very much a team effort but yes, tagging up on a frequent basis does make people remember you.

The new color system is helping a little from what I’ve seen. If your holding a keep or working supply ect use a yellow tag. People won’t expect you to run everything and you can find some like minded support.

A lot of people are PvE commanders as well, matter of fact some PvE zones I go to there’s like 8+ commanders, for the guild missions. The color coding on commanders would’ve been great in the crown pavilion, unfortunately its gone now.

X Factor.2641:

Reverence.6915:

It’s even harder for pugmanders playing outside of NA prime. I tend to be able to rally a decent size zerg for OCX prime (in comparison to our competition), but that usually peaks at around 25 people before dropping off when SEA starts as guilds start their raids. When other people try without a guild group behind them, they’re lucky to rally 10 players.

People like familiarity. If you tag up constantly, then people will recognise your tag and follow you.

T’is true, and maybe that’s one way new commanders can get involved but it also is on the zerg to accept the tag and help if the tag needs it and not to simply criticize. As a human race, we’re very good at criticism however that’s not doing anyone any favors when trying to get new commanders to become veteran commanders. Constructive criticism sure but simply saying “Commander fail” or “Noob Commander” isn’t going to get anywhere and it won’t save the veteran commanders form burning out. It is very much a team effort but yes, tagging up on a frequent basis does make people remember you.

Commanders need to have a thick skin, regardless of who you’re commanding. I’ve been commanding on Blackgate for nearly a year now and still get whispers of ‘Worst commander ever’ and ‘you suck tag down tishhead’ etc. Getting wiped as a pug group will instantly shrink your zerg by half, so you also need to consider that and avoid fights where necessary if it means preserving your zerg. Some people get bored of that and will leave but it’s the lesser evil for a pugmander

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I only bought my tag because it might come in handy for guild missions or when I need to show a newbie in PvE where to go on the map. I don’t like public speaking, so I’d be useless as a WvW Commander.

I first bought my tag when my desire to get something done (in wvw) finally over rode my shyness. It has been a rewarding experience and Im grateful to my server for the opportunities it has a given me as a commander.

I find that the best people to solve this issue are the celebrity commanders themselves.

Once you’ve gained celebrity commander status on your server and are able to rally large numbers onto your tag, you should be using that as an opportunity to give newer, lesser known commanders some exposure to the crowd. Train new commanders and let them lead the group that you’ve rallied. Pass the torch, so to speak.

This way, the celebrity commander doesn’t always have to be the one commanding which helps prevent him/her from burning out and in the mean time new commanders can rise up and eventually be able to rally large numbers by themselves.

Deli.1302:

I find that the best people to solve this issue are the celebrity commanders themselves.

Once you’ve gained celebrity commander status on your server and are able to rally large numbers onto your tag, you should be using that as an opportunity to give newer, lesser known commanders some exposure to the crowd. Train new commanders and let them lead the group that you’ve rallied. Pass the torch, so to speak.

This way, the celebrity commander doesn’t always have to be the one commanding which helps prevent him/her from burning out and in the mean time new commanders can rise up and eventually be able to rally large numbers by themselves.

If only it were so easy. The thing about seasoned commanders is that they know the field. I’m not talking about map politics either. I’m talking about knowing the people to whisper and who to talk to to get things done. I can easily jump down a few channels in TS, talk to someone for a short bit, then jump back. I’m also 100% familiar with TS3 and have CCOMs set up, etc. The portfolio of skills and knowledge that a commander needs to have to be decently organized and good is quite large. And quite frankly, many don’t care to learn them, knowing how difficult or stressful that it can be.

So I wish that others would tag up. My favorite moment is when I ask if anyone wants to take over my 20 to 30-man group on TS, a solid militia group made up of people from various good guilds and <80% of them on TS (which is a difficult thing to achieve), and all I get is crickets. I particularly enjoy commanding, but I much prefer leading competent people who know what they’re doing and require minimal commanding to get them to behave in the right fashion in a fight.

Pugmanding is too prone to burnout and utter frustration. Most, including myself, just go on pugmanding kicks for a short while, then go back to playing soloely with their guild group, running untagged, avoidng the use of siege.

Basch.1347:

Deli.1302:

I find that the best people to solve this issue are the celebrity commanders themselves.

Once you’ve gained celebrity commander status on your server and are able to rally large numbers onto your tag, you should be using that as an opportunity to give newer, lesser known commanders some exposure to the crowd. Train new commanders and let them lead the group that you’ve rallied. Pass the torch, so to speak.

This way, the celebrity commander doesn’t always have to be the one commanding which helps prevent him/her from burning out and in the mean time new commanders can rise up and eventually be able to rally large numbers by themselves.

If only it were so easy. The thing about seasoned commanders is that they know the field. I’m not talking about map politics either. I’m talking about knowing the people to whisper and who to talk to to get things done. I can easily jump down a few channels in TS, talk to someone for a short bit, then jump back. I’m also 100% familiar with TS3 and have CCOMs set up, etc. The portfolio of skills and knowledge that a commander needs to have to be decently organized and good is quite large. And quite frankly, many don’t care to learn them, knowing how difficult or stressful that it can be.

So I wish that others would tag up. My favorite moment is when I ask if anyone wants to take over my 20 to 30-man group on TS, a solid militia group made up of people from various good guilds and <80% of them on TS (which is a difficult thing to achieve), and all I get is crickets. I particularly enjoy commanding, but I much prefer leading competent people who know what they’re doing and require minimal commanding to get them to behave in the right fashion in a fight.

Pugmanding is too prone to burnout and utter frustration. Most, including myself, just go on pugmanding kicks for a short while, then go back to playing soloely with their guild group, running untagged, avoidng the use of siege.

But even training a new commander within a guild will give that commander experience to deal with pressure of pugmanding. I am in complete agreement with you but, as I said and you have said, it’s prone to making commanders burn out and the only ones who do and pugs will follow are the celebrity commanders everyone knows. This causes those commanders to command more and more until they leave like you said.

So the question really is where does the new tag start? Obviously running with the commander to learn the ropes helps but how do they effectively start down the path towards commander superstardom? I was going to suggest that when commanders think they’re ready to take charge of some people, start in your BL if you need to clean up. It’s a little easier than EB and the battles are few and far between. It is a good place to start.

I hesitate to say become an experienced WvW pugmander by commanding in EotM because not many people are looking for WvW in EotM just karma. It is however an effective way to become accustomed to speaking with people not in a VoIP program and keeping them informed. It’s also a good way to get used to map reading as everything moves around very fast in EotM and you constantly have to be paying attention to what’s going on so you don’t get caught unawares.

But where do the new tags start? Thoughts? Ideas?

Basch.1347:

Deli.1302:

I find that the best people to solve this issue are the celebrity commanders themselves.

Once you’ve gained celebrity commander status on your server and are able to rally large numbers onto your tag, you should be using that as an opportunity to give newer, lesser known commanders some exposure to the crowd. Train new commanders and let them lead the group that you’ve rallied. Pass the torch, so to speak.

This way, the celebrity commander doesn’t always have to be the one commanding which helps prevent him/her from burning out and in the mean time new commanders can rise up and eventually be able to rally large numbers by themselves.

If only it were so easy. The thing about seasoned commanders is that they know the field. I’m not talking about map politics either. I’m talking about knowing the people to whisper and who to talk to to get things done. I can easily jump down a few channels in TS, talk to someone for a short bit, then jump back. I’m also 100% familiar with TS3 and have CCOMs set up, etc. The portfolio of skills and knowledge that a commander needs to have to be decently organized and good is quite large. And quite frankly, many don’t care to learn them, knowing how difficult or stressful that it can be.

So I wish that others would tag up. My favorite moment is when I ask if anyone wants to take over my 20 to 30-man group on TS, a solid militia group made up of people from various good guilds and <80% of them on TS (which is a difficult thing to achieve), and all I get is crickets. I particularly enjoy commanding, but I much prefer leading competent people who know what they’re doing and require minimal commanding to get them to behave in the right fashion in a fight.

Pugmanding is too prone to burnout and utter frustration. Most, including myself, just go on pugmanding kicks for a short while, then go back to playing soloely with their guild group, running untagged, avoidng the use of siege.

Well you gotta show people that commanding can be a positive experience (i.e. get things done and get lots of loot bags) and more people might wanna try it out.

It’s not the maps that are stale in WvW, it’s the combat and lack of opponent variety. Thinking new maps will somehow shake things up and make it more interesting is akin to changing the colors on a chess board. It’s still the same game with the same pieces. Also, given how shockingly bad and gimmicky the EotM map is, careful what you wish for.

As for commander burnout, every commander has their reasons. Too much of a time commitment, second guessing pugs wearing you down, half the group raging after a wipe, no one helping you lighten the load with some individual initiative, etc. The players in WvW do an amazing job of making the most simple task more complex than the Apollo space program sometimes.

I, a wvwer since beta, commander, and avid supporter of golems, firmly believe the problem is the map, if we could have 7 random maps that each borderland is chosen out of, I am fairly confident it would make the game ALOT more entertaining and reduce burn out. Think about the mind numbing dullness of using the same choke point on EVERY MAP! It’s absurd. The game has been around far to long for this to not have been implemented. Look at it this way, there is already one map done, If there are 6 others, and every map is different each week, it would add a lot of strategy and skill to the game. Food for thought

zen.6091:

As for commander burnout, every commander has their reasons. Too much of a time commitment, second guessing pugs wearing you down, half the group raging after a wipe, no one helping you lighten the load with some individual initiative, etc. The players in WvW do an amazing job of making the most simple task more complex than the Apollo space program sometimes.

This is exactly why I started this thread is to bring this issue to attention and possibly get some new commanders in the swing of things so the old commanders everyone knows don’t burn out and leave.

As for map changes, I’m not so sure I agree with you. One of the reasons I left WvW for EotM was because it was getting monotonous being on the same maps over and over again. EotM is a beautiful map and I love pugmanding in it with all it’s unique stuff (until people start complaining that EotM is a ktrain). Maybe once I’ve done EotM enough that that becomes a stale map to me I’ll put focus back in the WvW maps but I would like a change-up and I think other commanders would like the same.

X Factor.2641:

ArchonWing.9480:

Oh yes, that is quite an issue. My server is utterly helpless without a tag and if not for people spending tireless hours commanding it would have easily went under. That has unfortunately led to burnout of many fine wvw’ers who sadly have grown resentful of followers, although this is true of many dedicated wvw’ers who care about winning. In the end this has lead to my server— SBI— being unable to retain serious wvw groups that are willing to uphold this burden on many occasions.

You guys certainly held your own during the season when we were matched against you, I tip my hat to you good sir

Yea, it was a good match especially in the last week— I was really surprised on how tenacious all 3 servers were despite all the setbacks during the seasons so I’ll tip my hat back. =p

I admit being pessimistic just before seasons as we had a exodus related to the issues you described, and it’s a long trend then when someone asks “what guilds on sbi to fight” and come up with nothing. Still, we did a lot better than I had anticipated. I attribute that to a rather determined pug crowd that makes up for lack of organization with an ability to just bang head relentlessly against certain objectives, especially Stonemist Castle. :p

I’m a newish commander on Kaineng. Still in my 1st 50 commands, and i’m getting much better (almost good i’d say), but my server is falling apart too fast for it to matter. I’m hearing we will have another wvw guild leave our server in the following weeks. I really hope Anet can fix the server population soon, because something really needs to be done for low population servers.

I try to play about 2-5 hours each day around the same time, to get players familiar with my name. I’d say this is good advise for players wanting to command, not too long of hours so you don’t get burned out. Also get in a WvW guild with voice chat, so you can learn from other commanders and talk to them, and watch a lot of youtube.

What’s irritating is when there isn’t enough players online to cap objectives, and we are extreamly outnumbered. No one likes commanding to get wiped over and over, so many players are leaving our server, and commanders aren’t tagging up. I keep on trucking though