Guild Wars 2

Question for the community:

The current iteration of condi/condi-power mesmer in WvW is pretty broken for roaming. There are pretty much no hard counters to it save some niche builds, yet the mesmer build(s) counter pretty much all 1v1 specs.

This is working as intended? If yes, then why?

condi/condi/power mesmer? is the old 30/30/30/30/30 build back?

Pvp meta replica I mean, with scepter sometimes.

Sounds more like a l2p issue to me.

Legend rank 60% win rate, GvG guild member… but ya. It was a topic of discussion.

The personal attacks man. Do you have anything to add to a discussion?

(Also, I take it you’ve been away from the game for a while, Legend and 60% are references to PvP)

Since July 2012 only played WvW. over 5k hours logged. No personal attacks, just assumptions based on your arguments. And don’t care about spvp. WvW is a different beast than sPvP. l2p.

Even more; 6,911 hours; almost all in WvW, and mostly single/duo/small team roaming. And yes, I’m a mesmer main. Gold Colonel; not that it matters much considering the EotM guys runnin around w/ Mithril rank. (fyi ANET… fix AT already…)

I don’t get what exactly is the discussion here. You’re complaining about the Cancerous Chronophantasma Mesmer? That’s problably the strongest 1v1 build atm and the only times I ever beat one was with condi necro (with all the condition return skills equpped)

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

You complained power/power/condi 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer was broken in your op. You can’t beat the power/power/condi 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer 1v1, so it must be broken.

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

I see… Well, most people won’t even bother dueling one. I even see some dudes run power food to bait people into fighting them.
I run a Viper’s variant myself (the original build is carrion for spvp or dire/trailblazer on wvw) and it’s a pretty strong combo aswell, but it lacks the passive defense from the full condi version. I think the big deal isn’t the build itself, but how it work along with the defensive stats. Honestly, any condi bunker is terrible to fight against in a 1v1 situation.

Jeknar.6184:

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

I see… Well, most people won’t even bother dueling one. I even see some dude run power food to bait people into fighting them.
I run a Viper’s variant myself (the original build is carrion for spvp or dire/trailblazer on wvw) and it’s a pretty strong combo aswell, but it lacks the passive defense from the full condi version. I think the big deal isn’t the build itself, but how it work along with the defensive stats. Honestly, any condi bunker is terrible to fight against in a 1v1 situation.

Agreed on the bunker statement. But you add the escape potential in as well and it (imo) comes out on top. It’s pretty toxic for roaming in general atm.

Jeknar.6184:

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

I see… Well, most people won’t even bother dueling one. I even see some dude run power food to bait people into fighting them.
I run a Viper’s variant myself (the original build is carrion for spvp or dire/trailblazer on wvw) and it’s a pretty strong combo aswell, but it lacks the passive defense from the full condi status. I think the big deal isn’t the build itself, but how it work along with the defensive stats. Honestly, any condi bunker is terrible to fight against in a 1v1 situation.

condi bunker applies to all classes (not just mesmer). You want to have fun, pick a class, equip it in all zerk and take melee weapons, and whatever you think are the best build specs you can think of.

RlyOsim.2497:

Jeknar.6184:

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

I see… Well, most people won’t even bother dueling one. I even see some dude run power food to bait people into fighting them.
I run a Viper’s variant myself (the original build is carrion for spvp or dire/trailblazer on wvw) and it’s a pretty strong combo aswell, but it lacks the passive defense from the full condi version. I think the big deal isn’t the build itself, but how it work along with the defensive stats. Honestly, any condi bunker is terrible to fight against in a 1v1 situation.

Agreed on the bunker statement. But you add the escape potential in as well and it (imo) comes out on top. It’s pretty toxic for roaming in general atm.

Nothing beats thief/daredevil for escape potential. Hell, even druid with staff/gs is better. (I’m suprised I didn’t even mention nike warrior).

abysterical.3792:

condi bunker applies to all classes (not just mesmer). You want to have fun, pick a class, equip it in all zerk and take melee weapons, and whatever you think are the best build specs you can think of.

Honestly, with the elite specs, I can no longer agree with the “Zerker purist” statement. It’s not fun to be outsustained by some professions like Druid/Scrapper/Tempest and even Warrior after the Adrenal Health buff. Not every profession have that much self sustain and mesmer cetainly don’t.

It doesn’t mean I like condi bunkers tho. The playstyle of that kind of build is just plain boring.

abysterical.3792:

Nothing beats thief/daredevil for escape potential. Hell, even druid with staff/gs is better. (I’m suprised I didn’t even mention nike warrior).

True, but I belive he mean about adding a escape potential to a already strong condi bunker. A condi thief is nowhere as dangerous as a condi mesmer despite the fact the he will most likely get away.

Jeknar.6184:

abysterical.3792:

Nothing beats thief/daredevil for escape potential. Hell, even druid with staff/gs is better. (I’m suprised I didn’t even mention nike warrior).

True, but I belive he mean about adding a escape potential to a already strong condi bunker. A condi thief is nowhere as dangerous as a condi mesmer despite the fact the he will most likely get away.

So, what are the mesmer escapes? blink and phase retreat (with staff). it’s not much. They blink behind and didn’t care to look to see if they were there?

Jeknar.6184:

abysterical.3792:

condi bunker applies to all classes (not just mesmer). You want to have fun, pick a class, equip it in all zerk and take melee weapons, and whatever you think are the best build specs you can think of.

Honestly, with the elite specs, I can no longer agree with the “Zerker purist” statement. It’s not fun to be outsustained by some professions like Druid/Scrapper/Tempest and even Warrior after the Adrenal Health buff. Not every profession have that much self sustain and mesmer cetainly don’t.

It doesn’t mean I like condi bunkers tho. The playstyle of that kind of build is just plain boring.

abysterical.3792:

Nothing beats thief/daredevil for escape potential. Hell, even druid with staff/gs is better. (I’m suprised I didn’t even mention nike warrior).

True, but I belive he mean about adding a escape potential to a already strong condi bunker. A condi thief is nowhere as dangerous as a condi mesmer despite the fact the he will most likely get away.

Again; just take all zerk (or marauder/zerk) equip, and have fun. Be suprised how fast you learn, and tend to have alot more fun. It’s a learning curve sure, but so much more rewarding in the end.

abysterical.3792:

So, what are the mesmer escapes? blink and phase retreat (with staff). it’s not much. They blink behind and didn’t care to look to see if they were there?

Well, most of time a decoy unto blink and prestige is enough to lose a non-thief, or at least give you a nice gap between your enemy. You can even go further and continuum unto prestige+decoy, return and then blink unto prestige+decoy again. And I didn’t even used phase retreat yet. Sure, it require some key skills to be off cooldown, but except for thief you need some key skills to lose a enemy in any profession.

abysterical.3792:

Again; just take all zerk (or marauder/zerk) equip, and have fun. Be suprised how fast you learn, and tend to have alot more fun. It’s a learning curve sure, but so much more rewarding in the end.

Dude. I played full zerker mesmer before… But I can no longer do it. It’s no longer fun to me. I hate to lose fights because my enemy have a lot of self sustain which my profession lack when not running a bunker setup. You may try to imply that it’s a L2P issue, but there is no learning in trying to take down a wall with your fists.

Jeknar.6184:

abysterical.3792:

Again; just take all zerk (or marauder/zerk) equip, and have fun. Be suprised how fast you learn, and tend to have alot more fun. It’s a learning curve sure, but so much more rewarding in the end.

Dude. I played full zerker mesmer before… But I can no longer do it. It’s no longer fun to me. I hate to lose fights because my enemy have a lot of self sustain which my profession lack when not running a bunker setup.

I’m having a ton of fun running zerk (caveat: have a power/tuff/feroc for a back piece). Using 10% dmg red/ 15% boon buff food, +100 tough/10% ferocity util, str runes. Just realized i had to go more on the offensive than the defensive (latter of which is what i think alot of people do).

RlyOsim.2497:

And I think herein is a key issue, the casualised nature that (arguably) Guild Wars 2 is aiming at. Perhaps this chrono build is a result of that?

Still, at least this guild leader/mesmer player gets tips on how to spec a mesmer (please pick up on the sarcasm… eyes are rollin…hard!).

Off for the evening.

No idea what you mean. Don’t play condi; use zerk. I have no problem w/ condi mesmers (save a few that I can recognize, same as I do w/ other classes… they’re just better than me).

You have problems fighting a condi mesmer, I’m guessing it’s just 1 that gave you alot of problems. Maybe a few. More than that, it’s a l2p issue. The skills don’t go off by themselves.

And did you just say you’re a guild leader? pulling that card, really? wow…

abysterical.3792:

And did you just say you’re a guild leader? pulling that card, really? wow…

I think he was reffering to me in that part.

Condition Mes is extremely strong for it’s access to so many potent defensive skills, it’s high stealth uptime and it’s primary conditions (Torment and Confusion) which together, basically mean you cleanse them or you don’t move and you don’t attack.

A lot of people don’t bring proper condition management then claim that this build needs to be nerfed or it’s “cancer.” While it is a very strong build, I truly don’t think it’s OP if you’re prepared to fight it/know how to fight it. It’s going to be easier for the Mesmer to play than it’ll be for you to kill it but that’s why so many people enjoy playing it – it basically plays itself.

I’ve got no gripe with condition Mesmer because I’ve learned how to deal with them. If ever they have their condition removal and mobility buffed, then I’ll have an issue with them. Because at least right now, they’re slow so they’re easy to kite/run away from and they generally have terrible condition removal so you can kill them with only a few re-applied bleed stacks if you’re a condition build yourself.

Condi Mes is no threat to me on my standard pew pew Ranger because I know how to kite well. I’ve had more than a few of them rage whisper me probably feeling irrelevant that they got disowned by core Ranger with a bear pet.

EDIT: And for the record, I hate the build as much as anyone else. It’s frustrating to fight and you know they’re probably putting in half the effort that you are. I just feel that bringing proper condition management and either being good at kiting or being good at pressuring them kills them the same as anyone else. The truly OP roaming build right now is the boon stacking bunker Beastmaster Druid that’s constantly boon stacking, reseting fights and doing huge damage from the pet. It has it’s counters but it’s far more tanky than condi Mes, a lot more slippery, a lot better condition management and it’s weaknesses aren’t even that much of a weakness (CC) because of it’s low cooldown Stability/stunbreaks.

@Spellofiniquity, they typically have really good condi removal, the Inspiration trait line provides a whole lot of that:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Illusions
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiration

And I agreed Druid is a bit problematic, that’s a whole other story tho!

RlyOsim.2497:

Jeknar.6184:

RlyOsim.2497:

@Jeknar

I’m not complaining, just throwing a statement out there to see what duelers/roamers in general think about this build and it’s place in the dueling/roaming ecosystem.

Thanks for contributing

I see… Well, most people won’t even bother dueling one. I even see some dude run power food to bait people into fighting them.
I run a Viper’s variant myself (the original build is carrion for spvp or dire/trailblazer on wvw) and it’s a pretty strong combo aswell, but it lacks the passive defense from the full condi version. I think the big deal isn’t the build itself, but how it work along with the defensive stats. Honestly, any condi bunker is terrible to fight against in a 1v1 situation.

Agreed on the bunker statement. But you add the escape potential in as well and it (imo) comes out on top. It’s pretty toxic for roaming in general atm.

Yup. This is really why the build’s so good. Condition stats themselves in WvW are borked as dire/plex + defensive boons + distortion + teleports + stealth + good condition spread is just a really and totally ridiculous mess. Kinda been that way for a while though with changes to confusion, clone AA’s in scepter, etc.

Getting rid of Dire/TB would probably solve most of the problems. Truth is if the mesmer’s any good, he’s only susceptible to burst, but dire/TB gear kind of carries the class’s weakness into being a bear to overcome.

Mesmer has pretty much always been a darling at ANet. At release they were crazy OP. PU went un-nerfed for far too long. Confusion is still too easy for them to apply. Blah… Blah… Blah. Just like the Guardian is in zergs, they will always be a strong 1v1 and skirmish class.

P/P thief used to be a counter to them but of course that got hammered into the ground.

Straegen.2938:

Mesmer has pretty much always been a darling at ANet.

Funny, I always hear that Warriors are Anet’s golden childs.

Straegen.2938:

P/P thief used to be a counter to them but of course that got hammered into the ground.

Considering that a condi bunker can now trait for reflections on manip (Chaos trait line highly benefit from Dire/Trailblazer), I’m not sure if P+P would still hurt mesmers as much as they did back on the days of Unload+Ricochet.

Jeknar.6184:

Considering that a condi bunker can now trait for reflections on manip (Chaos trait line highly benefit from Dire/Trailblazer), I’m not sure if P+P would still hurt mesmers as much as they did back on the days of Unload+Ricochet.

Their Reflection doesn’t last long enough to make a huge difference now that Thieves have strong interrupt builds. They can kite a Mesmer until reflect, block, evade, etc is finished. The P/P “trick” was that the bounce hit stealthed players and Mesmers could not hide behind their clones. Even pierce on P/P would be a decent counter.

Jeknar.6184:

abysterical.3792:

And did you just say you’re a guild leader? pulling that card, really? wow…

I think he was reffering to me in that part.

maybe; never heard of you. but guild leaders are a dime a dozen, so whatever.

Jeknar.6184:

abysterical.3792:

So, what are the mesmer escapes? blink and phase retreat (with staff). it’s not much. They blink behind and didn’t care to look to see if they were there?

Well, most of time a decoy unto blink and prestige is enough to lose a non-thief, or at least give you a nice gap between your enemy. You can even go further and continuum unto prestige+decoy, return and then blink unto prestige+decoy again. And I didn’t even used phase retreat yet. Sure, it require some key skills to be off cooldown, but except for thief you need some key skills to lose a enemy in any profession.

Trashed all of my previous comment. Will say this to mesmers:

Don’t care about the meta. Don’t play condi. Run Marauder/Zerk, and have fun. It’s not easy learning the skill curve, but you will (after many deaths), and the rewards are amazing.

Jeknar.6184:

I don’t get what exactly is the discussion here. You’re complaining about the Cancerous Chronophantasma Mesmer? That’s problably the strongest 1v1 build atm and the only times I ever beat one was with condi necro (with all the condition return skills equpped)

The only time I beat one was with a reaper with all the condition transfers equipped too.
The reaper shout that transfer 1 condi per hit works wonders against them.

But I think OP’s point is, yes there are a couple of niche builds that can fight these condi chrono mesmers, but every other build fails. And for these niche builds to fight them, they give up on a lot of things.

So condi chrono mesmers can kill most builds that stay and fight them while having more trouble fighting only a couple of niche builds. These niche builds have a good chance against these condi chrono mesmers but gives up a lot and is disadvantaged against most other roaming builds.

@EremiteAngel

I hear you brother. Any thoughts on how it could be toned down? Or if, specifically, how it could be toned down for necros?

Fix confusion. That’d do it. Bunker condi probably needs a look too but fixing that might as well delete necros from wvw and pvp.

Mes doesn’t need to be able to flatten everything with confusion while both bunkering up and enjoying stealth/misdirect/block/teleport.

I see all condition Mesmer players as players who gave up on real roaming. (power builds actually take skill and timing)

I have 3 Mesmers, one is condi/power hybrid and I only play that class once I’ve had enough of being rolled by other condi roamers, I hop off Ele or thief or what ever power build I’m using then go kill those people with my crappy cheesy hybrid Mes before logging off.

And I’m fairly certain I see some of those players switch from their class to a Mesmer too after they get rolled by conditions that punish you for moving or using skills, which has got to be one of the worst designs.

I don’t understand condi/condi power? Is it a condi mesmer or a power mesmer lol.

RlyOsim.2497:

Question for the community:

The current iteration of condi/condi-power mesmer in WvW is pretty broken for roaming. There are pretty much no hard counters to it save some niche builds, yet the mesmer build(s) counter pretty much all 1v1 specs.

This is working as intended? If yes, then why?

Aren’t you the guy that was complaining about the signet of humility skill and portals ? Also clones, phantasms, alacrity, zerker damage, condi damage, bunker builds and heal/sustain builds ?

Also, why would any of the dinky crap like 1v1 s matter in a mass battle game mode ?

Do you have some personal vandetta against some mesmer somewhere ? Possibly a guild leader that showed you how bad you are on yours or just beat you down right silly one time too many ?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I don’t understand condi/condi power? Is it a condi mesmer or a power mesmer lol.

Look at the meta battle PvP chrono build, that’s the power and condi version, from what I’ve seen in WvW typically some kinda of Sinister/Viper/Dire mix. Condi is usually Dire/Trailblazers.

Tongku.5326:

RlyOsim.2497:

Question for the community:

The current iteration of condi/condi-power mesmer in WvW is pretty broken for roaming. There are pretty much no hard counters to it save some niche builds, yet the mesmer build(s) counter pretty much all 1v1 specs.

This is working as intended? If yes, then why?

Aren’t you the guy that was complaining about the signet of humility skill and portals ? Also clones, phantasms, alacrity, zerker damage, condi damage, bunker builds and heal/sustain builds ?

Also, why would any of the dinky crap like 1v1 s matter in a mass battle game mode ?

Do you have some personal vandetta against some mesmer somewhere ? Possibly a guild leader that showed you how bad you are on yours or just beat you down right silly one time too many ?

I’m a mesmer main.

1v1 matters to people that 1v1 in WvW.

I have this build for just facerolling when I want a break from having to use mechanics. It is arguably far too strong, hence this thread.

10/10 shots at someone on the internet tho. Would you like to add something to the discussion?

Don’t see the SPvP meta hybrid build in WvW much. It is terrible at chasing people down which is what a lot of WvW revolves around due to the large spaces involved. In fact, I hardly ever see other Mesmers anymore. It’s simply not as competitive as D/P Thieves for quickly annihilating targets whilst also having the means to leave ANY fight. Why even bother playing that hyrbid build when WvW damage numbers are so high that you could just obliterate anything with a stealth opener on Thief? Which is what I do.

I’ve never seen it in a 1v1 duelling environment either because nobody really runs condi for duels as it trivialises the whole thing to just a matter of how much condi clear people are running, and therefore a reduced display of player skill.

Simonoly.4352:

Don’t see the SPvP meta hybrid build in WvW much. It is terrible at chasing people down which is what a lot of WvW revolves around due to the large spaces involved. In fact, I hardly ever see other Mesmers anymore. It’s simply not as competitive as D/P Thieves for quickly annihilating targets whilst also having the means to leave ANY fight. Why even bother playing that hyrbid build when WvW damage numbers are so high that you could just obliterate anything with a stealth opener on Thief? Which is what I do.

I’ve never seen it in a 1v1 duelling environment either because nobody really runs condi for duels as it trivialises the whole thing to just a matter of how much condi clear people are running, and therefore a reduced display of player skill.

Condi mesmers are a dime a dozen in the matchup I’m in. At least half of the thieves you see will be condi as well along with a couple trapper thieves usually running around.

Maybe it’s another NA Vs EU difference. Every Thief I have come across in my current matchup is D/P and the duelling areas are at about 70% Daredevil. Mesmers are almost extinct although I did see a condi Mesmer yesterday but it died to all the D/P Thieves in seconds.

D/P is THE roaming spec now on EU at least because it’s very easy to achieve some massive damage numbers with just shadow shot and auto-attacks alone whilst also being able to escape almost any encounter…unless there’s an enemy Thief.

Simonoly.4352:

Maybe it’s another NA Vs EU difference. Every Thief I have come across in my current matchup is D/P and the duelling areas are at about 70% Daredevil. Mesmers are almost extinct although I did see a condi Mesmer yesterday but it died to all the D/P Thieves in seconds.

D/P is THE roaming spec now on EU at least because it’s very easy to achieve some massive damage numbers with just shadow shot and auto-attacks alone whilst also being able to escape almost any encounter…unless there’s an enemy Thief.

I seriously struggle against Condi-Mesmers as D/P Thief (if they see me coming or have half-way decent reaction speed).

There’s nothing critical to dodge/interrupt/blind. It’s insanely survivable/slippery, relentlessly stacks condis on spammable/low-risk skills, and has tons of sustain.

I may be doing it wrong – so please throw out tips. Mesmer was actually my first 80, so I thought I knew the class well enough, but I must be missing something given your experience.

Blaqatak.1395:

Simonoly.4352:

Maybe it’s another NA Vs EU difference. Every Thief I have come across in my current matchup is D/P and the duelling areas are at about 70% Daredevil. Mesmers are almost extinct although I did see a condi Mesmer yesterday but it died to all the D/P Thieves in seconds.

D/P is THE roaming spec now on EU at least because it’s very easy to achieve some massive damage numbers with just shadow shot and auto-attacks alone whilst also being able to escape almost any encounter…unless there’s an enemy Thief.

I seriously struggle against Condi-Mesmers as D/P Thief (if they see me coming or have half-way decent reaction speed).

There’s nothing critical to dodge/interrupt/blind. It’s insanely survivable/slippery, relentlessly stacks condis on spammable/low-risk skills, and has tons of sustain.

I may be doing it wrong – so please throw out tips. Mesmer was actually my first 80, so I thought I knew the class well enough, but I must be missing something given your experience.

In my experience fighting them as a standard pew pew Ranger – Dodge “Confusing Images” (the long channelled purple beam) or cleanse it immediately at the end of it’s channel so as to cleanse all the stacks instead of just a couple. Destroy phantasms and kite, kite, kite. They seem to really hate me and I’ve had a discussion with a condi Mes before who told me that good kiters are a weakness for him. They don’t usually manage to get more than 2 conditions on me at any given time since I’m always so far away from them. As a Thief, I would suggest a lot of hitting and running. Drill some damage in to them then shortbow 5 the hell out of there, poking at them and their phantasms from a distance to maintain combat before re-engaging again. Blink is a good mobility skill but it’s usually one of the few that they have. They don’t have good chasing potential so forcing them to run after you is usually a good way to wear them down. Also note: If they’re using shield, stop attacking when they block or they’ll be able to block again.