Whether it’s a new character stat, or a current character stat, there should be a stat that provides condi damage mitigation that players can build for.
Thank you for reading this great suggestion!
There are so many ways to counter condi and you want a base way where players can simply ignore condi against them? Learn to play.
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_
“Armor is a value that is listed on the hero panel. It is equal to Defense plus Toughness attribute, and will determine how much incoming damage will be reduced. Armor does not mitigate Condition Damage or falling damage.”
…Curently there is not a stat to mitigate condi damage… you understand?
(edited by Swagger.1459)
Armor type (Light/Medium/Heavy + Vitality) for Condition Damage.
Light provides approx. 15% more reduction than Heavy.
Equivalent is Armor (Heavy/Medium/Light + Toughness) for Direct Damage.
Seems like a particle physicist solution where every time they find a phenomenon they can’t explain they invent a new particle to account for it.
Balance condis, condi skills, condi clear or resistance, but for crying out loud don’t add another game system to mess up the already horrible balance.
oh so the broken resistance isnt enough?
There needs to be a few things added to deal with condi that power dmg allready has. I would like to see a weakness like effect or have weakness it self work vs condi dmg. Protection or something like it needs a counter condi dmg effect say a -15%. Blunt -% taking from condi would be nice too. The biggest thing is condi -% duration or full on clears that only effect dmg condi so you cant simply hid your condi type behind 1 stack of viablitly spaming that along would fix a lot in this game.
As for a combo it may not work so well but (not my ideal but i think its a good one) is to add in more over all hp to the classes and or gear (so foces gets a vit effect to it like shield get a def effect) so its over all harder to kill ppl with condis along. Condis cant crit and do a very set dmg so having more hp build into the game would be a great effect after letting ppl stack condis such as burning and poison that where not in the game before yet the vit and or hp is set up for that older game play still.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality
“More health allows a character to better withstand burst damage and degenerative damage.”
Makes sense. I mean if they want to treat conditions as an equal to power, they need to make the counters and mitigations even too.
Vitality isn’t a “counter to condition damage”, it’s your buffer to any damage.
Vitality is the pool of hitpoints which is determined through the defensive capabilities of a class, which is why a class like elementalist have a low health pool to begin with (access to a lot of support stuff for itself and others), compared to a necromancer (which has little support even to itself). The more you put on, the more you can hold out on incoming damage especially burst (from either one) to survive until your heals kick in.
Armor and protection is the counter to direct damage.
Condition cleanses and resistance is the counter to condition damage.
Armor is always “on”.
Utility condition cleanses have cooldowns and limited number of condition removals, unless in a group.
Classes have various unequal access levels to protection and resistance boons.
Power should have always been the main way to deal damage in the game, conditions should have been secondary damage that puts pressure on the opponent who need to react with a cleanse. That’s what it seems like the system was built as for 3 years. Instead now they have boosted conditions to do as much damage or more, access to just as fast damage bursting capabilities, added more conditions, more auto proccing damage conditions, and took off the stack caps.
They’ve developed a terrible system trying to go 2 completely separate ways for doing damage and dealing with that damage, it’s a bloody mess that they will most likely never clean up. Just have to deal with it or not at all.
The only unfair thing about condition damage is having to listen to people who don’t understand how it is balanced whine about it constantly.
The only unfair thing about condition damage is having to listen to people who don’t understand how it is balanced whine about it constantly.
You’re right mr condition thief, we shouldn’t be on the forums to whine, we should be praising them for the great job they’ve been doing with combat. You got dibs yet on sending them the next gift basket of muffins?
Makes sense. I mean if they want to treat conditions as an equal to power, they need to make the counters and mitigations even too.
Vitality isn’t a “counter to condition damage”, it’s your buffer to any damage.
Vitality is the pool of hitpoints which is determined through the defensive capabilities of a class, which is why a class like elementalist have a low health pool to begin with (access to a lot of support stuff for itself and others), compared to a necromancer (which has little support even to itself). The more you put on, the more you can hold out on incoming damage especially burst (from either one) to survive until your heals kick in.Armor and protection is the counter to direct damage.
Condition cleanses and resistance is the counter to condition damage.
Armor is always “on”.
Utility condition cleanses have cooldowns and limited number of condition removals, unless in a group.
Classes have various unequal access levels to protection and resistance boons.Power should have always been the main way to deal damage in the game, conditions should have been secondary damage that puts pressure on the opponent who need to react with a cleanse. That’s what it seems like the system was built as for 3 years. Instead now they have boosted conditions to do as much damage or more, access to just as fast damage bursting capabilities, added more conditions, more auto proccing damage conditions, and took off the stack caps.
They’ve developed a terrible system trying to go 2 completely separate ways for doing damage and dealing with that damage, it’s a bloody mess that they will most likely never clean up. Just have to deal with it or not at all.
No, you’re basically playing with semantics here. The guy is asking for a “stat” that mitigates condition damage.
Armor is not a “counter”. It is a damage mitigation stat, a “buffer” in your parlance. Protection is a true “counter” and, as you correctly recognize, condition cleanses and resistance are also “counters”.
In your own words: “The more [vitality] you put on, the more you can hold out on incoming damage especially burst (from either one) to survive until your heals kick in.” That’s the proper definition of a damage mitigation stat. You could replace the word “vitality” with “toughness” here and the statement would still be true. Condition damage ignoring armor is irrelevant for vitality because you can stack more of it to increase your mitigation of all damage including condition damage.
I agree that they’ve taken condition damage over the top to make it compete with burst direct damage, that’s why Resistance was created. That isn’t to say though that there is no condition damage mitigation stat in the game. The trade-off for non-crit over-time damage was for Armor to be ignored. Some of the classes with low base HP pools were designed to have additional balance through heal bursts or, like thief, stealth.
IMHO making condition damage subject to a second mitigation stat like Armor will continue to push this game further into easy mode territory.
(edited by Chaba.5410)
Whether it’s a new character stat, or a current character stat, there should be a stat that provides condi damage mitigation that players can build for.
Thank you for reading this great suggestion!
I would go for that, but only if they put a -duration stat against power damage, so that power damage has only limited number of hits it can land, then it stops working, and can be negated by foods, traits, runes, etc. to keep it balanced.
Otherwise either just impliment the new direct mitigation but remove condi duration entirely both + and – , or come up with something else entirely.
No, you’re basically playing with semantics here. The guy is asking for a “stat” that mitigates condition damage.
Armor is not a “counter”. It is a damage mititgator, a “buffer” in your parlance. Protection is a true “counter” and, as you correctly recognize, condition cleanses and resistance are also “counters”.
In your own words: “The more you put on, the more you can hold out on incoming damage especially burst (from either one) to survive until your heals kick in.” That’s the proper definition of a damage mitigator.
Gee you know, I was actually thinking of post editing to correct myself on saying armor was a counter instead of mitigation, but decided not to, guess I should have.
Alright.
Armor will mitigate a portion of power damage all the time.
Cleanses gets rid of a condition entirely so 100% counter.
Protection is 33% damage mitigation for incoming direct damage, not a counter, something like renewed focus popping damage immunity is a counter.
Resistance is a mitigation of 100% of current condition damage, so a counter unless the condition lasts longer.
I don’t count vitality as a “mitigation to condition damage” as people seem to throw around in condition discussions, because it works for both damage types, so that argument is a wash to me.
There is no gear stat for reducing condition damage other than condition duration reductions. If they’re going to hand out gear stats like dire which has a mitigation against power damage all the time, why shouldn’t there be a stat for condition mitigation all the time too?
Again wasn’t a problem before when conditions weren’t as strong as they are today with their boost since the expansion. You wanna make them equal to power then make everything equal.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality
“More health allows a character to better withstand burst damage and degenerative damage.”
Vitality isn’t a mitigation stat for condis. Whether you have 0 vitality or 10,000, condis will tick for the same damage each tick. A mitigation stat would make them tick for less damage, just like armor makes power attacks hit you for less damage. That’s a mitigation stat.
OP is asking for a stat that reduces the per tick damage of condis. It can be a stat we already have that is updated with this functionality, or a new stat that is introduced, but that is what he is asking for.
If there would be a condi dmg reduction stat … can i then get the ability to cleanse power dmg after i got hit too? To make it fair, you know …
One does not simply cleanse of what does not linger to be cleansed.
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_
“Armor is a value that is listed on the hero panel. It is equal to Defense plus Toughness attribute, and will determine how much incoming damage will be reduced. Armor does not mitigate Condition Damage or falling damage.”
…Curently there is not a stat to mitigate condi damage… you understand?
power hits instantly for 5k say, and is mitigated to 2.5k say through toughess etc.
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
power hits instantly for 5k say, and is mitigated to 2.5k say through toughess etc.
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
Except for the fact that most times you don’t get hit with just 1 damage condition type (cept for maybe burn guards but there’s also more conditions applied for cover).
Edit: Jesus thought I was going crazy about a change made, cleanse is still filo, but the change was made random on the convert skills. My bad.
(edited by Xenesis.6389)
Cleanses are not random. It depends on the order of application. Last applied → first cleansed.
If there would be a condi dmg reduction stat … can i then get the ability to cleanse power dmg after i got hit too? To make it fair, you know …
You do. It’s called a heal.
Heals work vs condis too, so that’s not an equivalent to cleanses.
Whether it’s a new character stat, or a current character stat, there should be a stat that provides condi damage mitigation that players can build for.
Thank you for reading this great suggestion!
to late now.. and gw2 is about op gimmick vs op gimmick to nnully each other, its balanced? no.. but makes the game easier for alot of keyboard smasher.
Still, if they cant “balance” the game normally withthis poor and basic stats mechanics, the game would be even worse state with more stats….
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality
“More health allows a character to better withstand burst damage and degenerative damage.”
Vitality isn’t a mitigation stat for condis. Whether you have 0 vitality or 10,000, condis will tick for the same damage each tick. A mitigation stat would make them tick for less damage, just like armor makes power attacks hit you for less damage. That’s a mitigation stat.
OP is asking for a stat that reduces the per tick damage of condis. It can be a stat we already have that is updated with this functionality, or a new stat that is introduced, but that is what he is asking for.
The argument that Vitality as defense against both direct damage and condition damage means it doesn’t count is weak. There’s other things in this game that affect both direct and condition damage like Vulnerability.
And it is too simplistic in comparing armor with something that would make DoT tick less, or just ignoring how direct damage works. The reason armor affects direct damage in the first place is because direct damage can crit. Condition damage doesn’t have that.
Then there’s Resistance which negates the ticks completely depending upon how long it can be kept up. Condition damage is a duration based damage form. Trying to treat it like direct damage essentially creates the argument that there’s no purpose to having the two different damage forms in the first place.
There’s really no point arguing over stuff around conditions.
That’s the road they have gone down with combat from the expansion, there’s no turning back now without kittening off one group of players, it’s not going to change.
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_
“Armor is a value that is listed on the hero panel. It is equal to Defense plus Toughness attribute, and will determine how much incoming damage will be reduced. Armor does not mitigate Condition Damage or falling damage.”
…Curently there is not a stat to mitigate condi damage… you understand?
power hits instantly for 5k say, and is mitigated to 2.5k say through toughess etc.
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
And if you have Resistance up for 4 seconds, you’re only going to take 1k of condition damage over those 5 seconds.
By “counter” I mean “counter-play”.
(edited by Chaba.5410)
oh so the broken resistance isnt enough?
Resistance is problematic for several reasons but a main one is that it is only accessible on a handful of builds.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality
“More health allows a character to better withstand burst damage and degenerative damage.”
Vitality isn’t a mitigation stat for condis. Whether you have 0 vitality or 10,000, condis will tick for the same damage each tick. A mitigation stat would make them tick for less damage, just like armor makes power attacks hit you for less damage. That’s a mitigation stat.
OP is asking for a stat that reduces the per tick damage of condis. It can be a stat we already have that is updated with this functionality, or a new stat that is introduced, but that is what he is asking for.
The argument that Vitality as defense against both direct damage and condition damage means it doesn’t count is weak. There’s other things in this game that affect both direct and condition damage like Vulnerability.
And it is too simplistic in comparing armor with something that would make DoT tick less, or just ignoring how direct damage works. The reason armor affects direct damage in the first place is because direct damage can crit. Condition damage doesn’t have that.
Then there’s Resistance which negates the ticks completely depending upon how long it can be kept up. Condition damage is a duration based damage form. Trying to treat it like direct damage essentially creates the argument that there’s no purpose to having the two different damage forms in the first place.
Well i guess you would be right, we shouldnt treat condi like direct damage cuz is duration based dmg… or well it was, before the condi stack! now condi burst even more than a full crit power burst combo!
Just to let you know, without crits, any power based build from any class has less DPS than a condi one!
But again, the main problem is not only the condi dmg, so i don’t think the condi dmg reduction stat is the way to solve this mess. I think the real problem is how easy is to apply those condi, is like any condi skill in this game is made to be easier to land. In comparison, any huge power burst dmg has a so easy tell, that you can have the time to phone to your opponent and warn him “burst incoming” before the skill hit!!!
I think they should rewatch any skill in the game that apply “X+Y” stack of condis, and rework them to put them in the line with the 23 june patch. Also the fact that so many autoprocs and aoe put condis doesnt help this balance process.
You can:
Remove conditions
Evade condition application
Become temporarily immune (Resistance)
Reduce duration via traits/foods
Reduce damage via traits/foods.
With your suggestion, this could mean a player could potentially be immune to condition damage with Resistance, assuming the new stat you request can stack, with foods and traits, possibly up to 100% reduced incoming condition damage, with runes, reduced condition duration and with good old fashioned dodges, avoid the application as well.
How about. No.
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
And if you have Resistance up for 4 seconds, you’re only going to take 1k of condition damage over those 5 seconds.
By “counter” I mean “counter-play”.
That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.
People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.
The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).
If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.
But again, the main problem is not only the condi dmg, so i don’t think the condi dmg reduction stat is the way to solve this mess. I think the real problem is how easy is to apply those condi, is like any condi skill in this game is made to be easier to land. In comparison, any huge power burst dmg has a so easy tell, that you can have the time to phone to your opponent and warn him “burst incoming” before the skill hit!!!
I think they should rewatch any skill in the game that apply “X+Y” stack of condis, and rework them to put them in the line with the 23 june patch. Also the fact that so many autoprocs and aoe put condis doesnt help this balance process.
Yes you’re right. There doesn’t seem to have been a good review of skills that apply condis since the cap was lifted from number of stacks. It was like they added the resistance boon and hoped for the best. Yet what we’ve seen with Epidemic in WvW shows how such review needs to take place.
You can:
Remove conditions
Evade condition application
Become temporarily immune (Resistance)
Reduce duration via traits/foods
Reduce damage via traits/foods.
With your suggestion, this could mean a player could potentially be immune to condition damage with Resistance, assuming the new stat you request can stack, with foods and traits, possibly up to 100% reduced incoming condition damage, with runes, reduced condition duration and with good old fashioned dodges, avoid the application as well.
How about. No.
Remember when Engineer had a trait for 100% condition duration reduction at 25% health? Boy, the complaints….
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
And if you have Resistance up for 4 seconds, you’re only going to take 1k of condition damage over those 5 seconds.
By “counter” I mean “counter-play”.
That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.
People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.
The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).
If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.
That’s a problem with condition Chronomancer not condition builds as a whole. Condition Chrono/Mesmer has been overtuned for a long time and 95% of the Mesmers you meet roaming are going to be condition builds because it’s easy.
Yes there are other professions/builds that can deliver high condition bursts but most of them are gimmicks and aren’t seen nearly as often because of it. Their power counterparts are just flat out better so most won’t run condition variants unless they prefer them.
I’m not understanding how people can say “I can do 6 – 10k condition bursts on my Mesmer, conditions need a nerf.” That’s like saying I can do 20k+ Gunflames on my Warrior, Ferocity needs a nerf. The phrase, “common sense isn’t common” is so painfully true on these forums.
You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_
“Armor is a value that is listed on the hero panel. It is equal to Defense plus Toughness attribute, and will determine how much incoming damage will be reduced. Armor does not mitigate Condition Damage or falling damage.”
…Curently there is not a stat to mitigate condi damage… you understand?
power hits instantly for 5k say, and is mitigated to 2.5k say through toughess etc.
condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.
Cleanses are much fewer than the application of condis now, and with the simplistic LIFO cleansing nonsense, its trivial to add a cover condition and make it so that most cleanses can’t actually cleanse the damaging conditions that you pile up. So this is not a viable solution in the current game.
@Chaba – I never made the argument that because vitality works against both power and condis that it didn’t count as a mitigation stat. You are the one who spouted that off. I was pointing out how it isn’t mitigation versus any type of damage, because it doesn’t mitigate it. All it does is allow you to eat more damage, but it does absolutely nothing to mitigate the damage you do receive.
That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.
People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.
The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).
If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.
I got never bursted down by a condi mesmer (or any other condi build) in less than 3 seconds ever. Not even once. And i met tons of them every day. The only mesmer than can actually burst me (10-15k+ dmg in less than 2 seconds) is power mesmer. And i’m playing a build with high armor (2,8-3k) and few cleanses. Getting bursted by a condi mes is 100% a L2P issue (unless you get unlucky with aoe interrupts against a mistrust mesmer, but barely anybody plays that build, because it is too squishy to be really good). It requires somebody to facetank all shatters and then spam skills (except from cleanses) like crazy while running arround like a headless chicken.
I really want to see the insane condi burst, that everyone is talking about, because i can’t find it in wvw.
Power should have always been the main way to deal damage in the game, conditions should have been secondary damage that puts pressure on the opponent who need to react with a cleanse. That’s what it seems like the system was built as for 3 years. Instead now they have boosted conditions to do as much damage or more, access to just as fast damage bursting capabilities, added more conditions, more auto proccing damage conditions, and took off the stack caps.
They’ve developed a terrible system trying to go 2 completely separate ways for doing damage and dealing with that damage, it’s a bloody mess that they will most likely never clean up. Just have to deal with it or not at all.
Initially, this was how the game was. There was originally no way to achieve bonus condition damage outside of might. Conditions were meant for control and as a source of bonus “true damage” which tanks and supportive builds to play into (note that many condition-oriented weapons and trait-lines feature extra defenses in their design).
With people demanding DoT builds, however, ANet took the lazy solution (what else is new) of just utilizing the condition framework.
Then they added Dire, which was still pretty broken even before the condi buffs.
Then PvE players whined they didn’t deal enough damage to beat CoF in 5 minutes with their pug groups, and demanded condition build buffs.
Power still topped the chart in optimal PvE play, and peopled whined, so ANet released Sinister gear to enable better DPS.
And then people still whined it wasn’t optimal in speed clear groups composing of a minuscule fraction of the population, so they buffed conditions more with the release of HoT, and made TB to keep the builds oppressive in WvW for whatever reason.
And now we’re here.
Players should be able to passively reduce all damage types at the cost of their own DPS. In turn no skills should exist that make players immune from any damage type. Condi should have been a Damage Over Time effect that cannot be removed but can be reduced.
Game mechanics like Stealth, Evasion and Blocking should have cooldowns or hard counters. The ability to chain together defense so that a player is effectively immune from attacks for long periods of time is a poor and generally frustrating mechanic.
All or nothing attack and defense systems are incredibly difficult to balance.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
I was pointing out how it isn’t mitigation versus any type of damage, because it doesn’t mitigate it. All it does is allow you to eat more damage, but it does absolutely nothing to mitigate the damage you do receive.
One can stack more Toughness to further reduce direct damage. I view this analogous to how one can stack more Vitality in order to eat more damage. You’re right that once damage gets subtracted from the HP pool, that’s not the same as damage reduction. Being able to increase the HP pool through the Vitality stat though is a form of mitigation – and one that is often considered as a rather “noob” approach since new players are still learning how to utilize skills, etc. to actively mitigate.
I think it is useful to this discussion to understand the damage formulas.
Armor is not a damage mitigator in the direct damage formula in the sense of damage multipliers like critical damage and protection. It is a divisor of the multipliers so it has a strong effect on reducing multiplied damage before the damage is subtracted from HP. The key word here is “multiplier”.
Condition damage is calculated thus: “Actual damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage)”. You can increase condition damage with something like Might which is a number added to the condition dmg stat. My guess is that’s how other condition damage modifiers work, such as Resistance, Vulnerability, Rite of the Great Dwarf, etc., by adding/subtracting to/from the Condi Dmg stat. The other mitigation for condi dmg is of course the condi duration stat and items that modify it. There’s mitigation occurring, just not in the way players think. If there were a stat that affected the condi dmg calculation in addition to this, what would be the way to implement it in the formula and how would it be balanced?
According to the wiki, in GW2 Power Damage is calculated with the following formula
Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Condition Damage is calculated with the following formula
Actual damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage)
Why is it that some people find it so far out there that a simple division is placed on this formula just like there is one in the power damage formula? Change that addition to multiplication, and divide over target’s armor and its a very similar formula to power damage. In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats. Another way it could be incorporated would be to multiply that entire formula by 2, and then divide by either vitality or healing power (or toughness, or precision or power or any other stat for that matter even though some make more sense than others). Or you could do something way more complicated than this if you wanted to. But its trivial to add a condi damage mitigation stat into the damage formula for conditions.
I’m not saying that would be balanced, its just a few ways that a condi damage mitigation stat could be introduced to the formula.
Why not just make toughness reduce condition damage per tic? Yes it egnores armor but toughness in my minds eye is how hearty you are resistant to sickness and whatnot like constitution in DnD. Somone with high Con is going to have a better chance to resist damage or not as sick as someone that has low Con.
But then the devs may need to rework other skills like resistance to not make a power meta again.
Example like somone stacking toughness ignore say 10% of the damage from condition ticks, or whatever number doesnt add too much of a nerf to conditions. I suggest toughness because its a stat that already exists and no new armors/runes need to be created.
If they do add such a stat, it shouldn’t be added to any gear with toughness, vitality, or healing on it. Ball melee trains with endless resistance, aegis, blocks, and immunities floating around should not be allowed resistance against conditions as well, give me a break.
If they add such a stat, put it on dps style gear only, so that way if players really feel that conditions are an issue, sacrifice your defensive stats for it.
Better yet, leave it off gear and trinkets entirely and make it part of food and oils but put a counter on the food as well as to not allow players to stack this on top of toughness/vitality builds. Something like 20% condition damage mitigation & -20% to toughness & vitality.
Then zerker gear for example would be pretty insane melee trains and power builda would prob take over quick if thats the case. Put a defence stat on pure dps gear.
I could see however the food idea being better solution that would alow dpsers and damage soakers use it if needed and wanted
The overall goal of such a change would be to also bring resistance in line with protection, and have it only reduce the damage that condis do by 33-40%.
And adding it to food is a bad way to go about this. Stats on armor are a 1 time cost, after you make it you can always use it. Food is always temporary, so putting something as important as condi mitigation (assuming ANet agrees that we need a stat for condi mitigation) into a costly, time limited consumable, would be a huge mistake.
@Greygus – I agree that toughness would be a good stat for condi mitigation. But I don’t want it to be overloaded, so I can see some merit to adding it to another stat.
This whole discussion here is just oil to the fire, why I am behind it, that Anet should completely rework the Boon & Condition System by reducing both sides (14 boons/conditions is just too much than is good for th game – have you ever seen before a game with more buffs and conditions, than GW2??? I just haven’t and this surely has its reasons)
This together with changign the Health System to an individualized system that allows to balance all classes Base Health Values more individually to take them into overall Class Balance into consideration better will also hel in further balancing better the games combat system.
The next step would be to make balance changes and finetunings on skilsl and traits based on those made changes of the Boons, Conditions and new Max Health Values of all Classes, so that ANet would be able then to make the final last step to balance GW2 again properly
Upgrade Rebalances for all Runes, Sigils ect. and making GW2 sa game, with no Gear Stats, as Stats should come all just automatically from leveling up your character and putting manually the points into the attributes how you like, together with an option to reset the Stat Point Distribution anytime out of combat whenver you want, so that there is no problem with people eventually misbuilding their characters totally.
If ANet woudl get so far, then they be also ready for the biggest game balance chance, that this game needs. A Rework of the Attribute System to Dual Effects, so that finally all 3 Attribute Types – Offense, Defense and Support have synergies between each other and not only the offensive ones based on Power, Precision and Ferocity currently.
That way could introduce Anet also needed long overdue more defensive and supportive Attribute Effects, like such ones, which increase your Endurance Regen, or decrease for you the Chanc to receive Critical hits, or which can mitigate for you the Durations of Conditions you suffer on … Made recently in an other thread such a list for that, ill copy it into this posting
—o—
- Power = +Damage & +Condition Duration
- Toughness = -Received Damage & -Chance to Receive Criticals
- Vitality = +Max Health & +Healing Efficiency
- Precision = +Critical Chance & +Condition Damage
- Agility = +Endurance Regen & -Utility Skill Cooldown
- Courage = +Boon Duration & +Critical Damage
- Wisdom = -Received Condition Duration & +Boon Efficiency
- Resistance = +Break Bar Regen & +Crowd Control Resistance
This Attribute System would solve alot of Balance Problems with CC Spam, Condition Mitigation, Attribute Synergy Discrepancies, Condis needing only 1 Attribute to max out DPS as with this it would be at least 2 and there being no way to reduce Condition Damage by reducing their durations, as there eixts already Buff Food for that as well. But there needs to be also an Attribute for that too and with that I’m with the OP
(edited by Orpheal.8263)
That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.
People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.
The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).
If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.
I got never bursted down by a condi mesmer (or any other condi build) in less than 3 seconds ever. Not even once. And i met tons of them every day. The only mesmer than can actually burst me (10-15k+ dmg in less than 2 seconds) is power mesmer. And i’m playing a build with [b]high armor (2,8-3k)[b] and few cleanses.
That’s because you reacted or know how to counterplay even with limited cleanses. It’s theoretical – just like Power Burst. Do yourself a favor and just stand there once. It’s no big deal, right?
The key here is you are stating multiple cleanses. Every build in WvW has them for a reason to counter. It’s no different than stacking passive defense or blocks or immunities or protection boon or etc.
Adding a condi reduction stat adds build diversity to the game.
Anet should completely rework the Boon & Condition System by reducing both sides (14 boons/conditions is just too much than is good for th game – have you ever seen before a game with more buffs and conditions, than GW2??? I just haven’t and this surely has its reasons)
Just Google World of Warcraft buffs. There are 9 types of buffs alone. I don’t think GW2 is way out there.
The big difference between GW2 and the rest of major MMOs is there is no “damage type” mechanic. Most games revolve around resistance/mitigation towards damage types (i.e. physical (blunt/pierce/slash), fire, frost, psychic, dark, holy, etc. types) for balancing. So it doesn’t matter if it is Direct Damage or Condition Damage as it is balanced by gear that mitigates against certain types of attacks.
GW2 is actually much more simplistic.
In GW2, the difference is conditions are primarily just an unmitigated damage type outside of a few traits/defensive food types which covers typically a small percentage of the entire damage potential (<20% at best in most circumstances). Direct damage has baseline mitigation that can be enhanced with gear/stat options, trait options and even utility options that allows for typical WvW builds to always have around (35%-55%) mitigation plus Protection uptime for a multiplied (addition of) more mitigation.
In a bubble, having Direct Damage deal around 2x Condition Damage would make it balanced but that’s not where Condition damage is. It’s often as good as Direct Damage options in most builds or even better (driven by two stats versus 3 stats to enhance). The only counter out there from crazy-take-over-everything land is AoE cleansing, massive self cleansing abilities and Resistance Boon.
IMO, adding more stats doesn’t solve anything; in fact, it adds more balance issues. The current GW2 system is fine. We don’t need to scrap and redo everything.
And with that is WoW lower even than GW2, as we have currently 12 boons (if you include alacrity which isnt shown on the wiki amogn them whyever) with 14 Conditions, so 3 more boons than WoW.
Every Boon less in the game is 1 lesser you have to take care of for in combat, that is better game performance also as well due to the game having lesser to calculate things in combat, that is easier game/class balancing, due to not having to balance so much around Boons in regard of Skills and Traits for each Class.
However, GW2 has a fast paced combat system, where the removal of boons and conditions is mandatory and a big part of it. But as result of this we have this spammy gameplay around them which makes Boons and Conditions oftenly feel like being also not impactful or meaningful enough, when you get spammed quicker with Conditions full, than you can remove them, due to on the other side Condition Removal being too easy or Boons being removed, stolen or corrupted quicker, before you got any good effect out of them perhaps.
The point is, and which is why people are talking about Conditions so much lately – that the current Game Balance is since June 23rd of 2015 totally out of control and the implementation of Elite-Specs sadly didn’t made the situation better.
No, in certain cases it made the things even much worser, because now isn’t only just the conditions totally out of whack, now it are also on top of that the CCs that ANet turned into a spam festival due to the introduction of Break Bars, which they why ever added only to PvE enemies, but not also to players to balance this CC chaos for WvW and PvP as well.
This in addition of the overpowered conditions which players have no chance to mitigate well enough is the reason, why condi players have overwhelmed the game by now everywhere, especially in combination with skills like Epimedic to spread out the condi cancer quickly to everyone in your near.
Anets only simple bandaid solution to all of this was the introduction of Resistance as a new 12th boon and basically as middle finger boon towards all condi players.
It goes even so far now, that people demand now ironically that Protection should be buffed to 100% direct damage mitigation as well. LOL
In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats.
That’s terrible design.
Wow just trimmed down their buffs with the last expansion actually. Their buffs work differently as well, their version of haste gets you 30% haste for 40s but then you cannot be affected by another haste spell for 10mins. Most of their other buffs involves stat buffs mostly capped at like 5% more strength type of thing, some buffs like blessing of freedom gives immunity to movement impairing skills for 8s but one target and cooldown of 25s. There isn’t as much aoe stuff in there either.
Dots are also no where as bad as conditions are in this game and only a few classes uses dots. The system anet has designed for gw2 focusing on boons vs conditions is now way overboard and bloated.
In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats.
That’s terrible design.
You clearly didn’t read the rest of my comment. You asked how it could be incorporated, and I showed you how it could be incorporated into the formula. I never said it was balanced, I in fact stated that what I threw out was not balanced. It was just to be used as an example of how a mitigation stat could be incorporated.
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