Guild Wars 2

The thing about condi damage is it requires party setup and communication to mitigate it affectively. An average pug group isn’t going to have resistance up or cleanse condis for their party. In a way it promotes organized groups.

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats.

That’s terrible design.

You clearly didn’t read the rest of my comment. You asked how it could be incorporated, and I showed you how it could be incorporated into the formula. I never said it was balanced, I in fact stated that what I threw out was not balanced. It was just to be used as an example of how a mitigation stat could be incorporated.

I wrote in an earlier post before asking how it could be incorporated that making an identical formula becomes an argument for not having the two different damage types in the first place. Because it’s terrible design.

Again, since you completely ignore this. I didn’t say that was a good idea. I was merely pointing out how it could be incorporated, because you seemed to think it couldn’t be incorporated into the formula.

It would be trivial to change the formula to have a condi mitigation stat. Trivial.

OriOri.8724:

Again, since you completely ignore this. I didn’t say that was a good idea. I was merely pointing out how it could be incorporated, because you seemed to think it couldn’t be incorporated into the formula.

It would be trivial to change the formula to have a condi mitigation stat. Trivial.

You’re right. It isn’t a good idea. It may seem trivial, but assuredly it is not. It means adding a new stat – aren’t there enough stats already – which then seems trivial to add to the formula, but then there’s everything else that this affects that would need adjusting and review from skills to gear to runes/sigils to traits to consumables. As another poster pointed out, all more stats does is create more way more complexity to the job of balancing skills.

It would be far better to make adjustments within the current game mechanics, such as the suggestions people have made regarding Epidemic or capping stacks, rather than try to re-design the game.

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats.

That’s terrible design.

You clearly didn’t read the rest of my comment. You asked how it could be incorporated, and I showed you how it could be incorporated into the formula. I never said it was balanced, I in fact stated that what I threw out was not balanced. It was just to be used as an example of how a mitigation stat could be incorporated.

I wrote in an earlier post before asking how it could be incorporated that making an identical formula becomes an argument for not having the two different damage types in the first place. Because it’s terrible design.

Want to know what bad designs are? Bad designs are all these pve designed rulesets and pve raid balanced professions, elites and skills shoved into competitive pvp modes such as wvw and spvp… What was also a bad design was neglecting major issues since launch, and now only making stronger efforts to balance spvp, not wvw as well…

Condition damage here is called DoT in other games… that’s “damage over time”… The rate a player can apply condition DoT vastly outweighs another players ability to defend against them. Even built for highest condi defenses, it’s just a matter of time before all those defenses are exhausted, leaving a player sol.

Everything needs checks and balances. If a player can build to do lots of condi DoT through gear, then another player should have the ability to build condi DoT defense through gear. All other condi defenses can be modified around that.

Most game companies do not know how to handle cc systems in their game, and anet is no exception, but at least they can finally start making some attempts to achieve a healthier cc system for wvw like they are going to do for spvp…

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Again, since you completely ignore this. I didn’t say that was a good idea. I was merely pointing out how it could be incorporated, because you seemed to think it couldn’t be incorporated into the formula.

It would be trivial to change the formula to have a condi mitigation stat. Trivial.

You’re right. It isn’t a good idea. It may seem trivial, but assuredly it is not. It means adding a new stat – aren’t there enough stats already – which then seems trivial to add to the formula, but then there’s everything else that this affects that would need adjusting and review from skills to gear to runes/sigils to traits to consumables. As another poster pointed out, all more stats does is create more way more complexity to the job of balancing skills.

It would be far better to make adjustments within the current game mechanics, such as the suggestions people have made regarding Epidemic or capping stacks, rather than try to re-design the game.

It would not need a new stat introduced to the game. It would be easy enough to adjust the scaling on condi base damage and factors for individual skills while dividing the entire formula by an already existing stat such as toughness/vitality/healing power/anything else we currently have. It would in no way necessitate adding a new stat to the game.

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Swagger.1459:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

In fact, it would be identical except with the condition specific stats instead of power specific stats.

That’s terrible design.

You clearly didn’t read the rest of my comment. You asked how it could be incorporated, and I showed you how it could be incorporated into the formula. I never said it was balanced, I in fact stated that what I threw out was not balanced. It was just to be used as an example of how a mitigation stat could be incorporated.

I wrote in an earlier post before asking how it could be incorporated that making an identical formula becomes an argument for not having the two different damage types in the first place. Because it’s terrible design.

Want to know what bad designs are? Bad designs are all these pve designed rulesets and pve raid balanced professions, elites and skills shoved into competitive pvp modes such as wvw and spvp… What was also a bad design was neglecting major issues since launch, and now only making stronger efforts to balance spvp, not wvw as well…

Condition damage here is called DoT in other games… that’s “damage over time”… The rate a player can apply condition DoT vastly outweighs another players ability to defend against them. Even built for highest condi defenses, it’s just a matter of time before all those defenses are exhausted, leaving a player sol.

Everything needs checks and balances. If a player can build to do lots of condi DoT through gear, then another player should have the ability to build condi DoT defense through gear. All other condi defenses can be modified around that.

Most game companies do not know how to handle cc systems in their game, and anet is no exception, but at least they can finally start making some attempts to achieve a healthier cc system for wvw like they are going to do for spvp…

@Swagger

Agree 100%, power creep with condis is real and hurting the pvp scene especially WvW.

Anet desperately needs to take a look at conditions and their respective counters and bring parity to the situation. Currently, it is slanted in favor of conditions.

However, I also agree that the resistance boon would need to be reworked if they did a re-balance on conditions

Xenesis.6389:

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Not sure what you mean by the, arrow cart comment?

I’d like to see some better rune protection, -20% duration? its the 10 stacks * 4 conditions that kill me, I’m not going to get to 80% of the time…
I’d also like to see sanctuary get some love, stabs a massive issue aswell, <20% to trigger? u are dead but immovable…..?
not sure I buy the vitality stuff, its about cleanse, and taking alot of it again you can’t outlive a cooldown if you are lit up like a xmas tree no matter how fat you are. as long as you sacrifice something for condi mitigation I don’t see why it shouldn’t be included.
let people choose.

Artaz.3819:

Adding a condi reduction stat adds build diversity to the game.

It would allow for 100% condition damage mitigation with foods, traits and utilities. Then add gear stats on top of it and there you go, immune to conditions 100% of the time if you so choose to build that way.

I understand that it probably would not be optimal and that not everyone would do it but do you happen to remember old Diamond Skin? Or the Engineer trait that did the same but at low health instead of high? Those things were changed because they didn’t have counterplay. If you were a condition build you were kitten out of luck against these things. Imagine if Toughness and Protection were more effective than what they currently are and that it were possible to stack up to 100% damage immunity with traits and food.

It doesn’t matter if conditions are difficult to fight. They can still be fought and there are plenty of options to help you when fighting them. Allowing everyone the option to be completely or nearly completely immune to conditions isn’t healthy game design. A lot of people may dislike conditions but a lot of said people are simply not good at fighting them or are too stubborn to take the proper measures to do so.

Conditions are a part of this game weather people like it or not. As far as I’m concerned, they always will be. Stop trying to persuade ANet in to removing them or giving you options to 100% ignore them and start getting better at fighting them. Just like in real life, you can’t expect someone to hold your hand through everything.

Odokuro.5049:

Xenesis.6389:

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Not sure what you mean by the, arrow cart comment?

I imagine its a jab at you having Yaks Bend in your signature.

Either way, Vitality is not a mitigation stat. Whether you have 1 vitality or 10,000, you take the same amount of condi damage per tick, so it doesn’t mitigate it at all. What OP is requesting is a proper mitigation stat for condis, just like how armor mitigates power damage by decreasing the damage you take from power attacks.

Direct damage can be mitigated by armor.
Condition damage bypass armor but can be cleansed.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Artaz.3819:

Adding a condi reduction stat adds build diversity to the game.

It would allow for 100% condition damage mitigation with foods, traits and utilities. Then add gear stats on top of it and there you go, immune to conditions 100% of the time if you so choose to build that way.

I understand that it probably would not be optimal and that not everyone would do it but do you happen to remember old Diamond Skin? Or the Engineer trait that did the same but at low health instead of high? Those things were changed because they didn’t have counterplay. If you were a condition build you were kitten out of luck against these things. Imagine if Toughness and Protection were more effective than what they currently are and that it were possible to stack up to 100% damage immunity with traits and food.

It doesn’t matter if conditions are difficult to fight. They can still be fought and there are plenty of options to help you when fighting them. Allowing everyone the option to be completely or nearly completely immune to conditions isn’t healthy game design. A lot of people may dislike conditions but a lot of said people are simply not good at fighting them or are too stubborn to take the proper measures to do so.

Conditions are a part of this game weather people like it or not. As far as I’m concerned, they always will be. Stop trying to persuade ANet in to removing them or giving you options to 100% ignore them and start getting better at fighting them. Just like in real life, you can’t expect someone to hold your hand through everything.

Nobody is asking for a system that has 100% condi damage reduction… stop making things up to fit into your narrative.

Obviously if this was introduced other things need to be looked at, that’s pretty much a given, so let’s get off the 100% junk and start focusing on what that would mean towards contributing to a balanced system…

Exciton.8942:

Direct damage can be mitigated by armor.
Condition damage bypass armor but can be cleansed.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

It is but people don’t want balance. They want to be able to pretend conditions don’t exist because it hurts their special fuzzy feelys when they get punished for not putting condition removal and management in to their builds.

All my characters are built for personal sustain because I do a lot of roaming. I never make a build without condition removal or some form of condition mitigation. You know how often I have trouble with condition builds? Very rarely unless I’m caught off guard or the player is flat out better than me. Every class has the option to invest in condition clears or mitigation and everyone can use runes and/or foods that reduce their duration. But how many people do that do you think.

Exciton.8942:

Direct damage can be mitigated by armor.
Condition damage bypass armor but can be cleansed.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

Cleanses have not kept up with the rate of condi application though. As long as condi application far outshines cleanses this isn’t a viable argument. Plus, with the simplistic LIFO cleansing system, its trivial to add cover conditions and make it so that the few cleanses the target has can’t actually cleanse the dangerous conditions.

Unless either the amount of cleases are increased substantially (which shouldn’t happen, just more power creep), or a proper cleansing hierarchy is implemented (which should happen regardless) then they aren’t really that great at mitigation anymore.

OriOri.8724:

Exciton.8942:

Direct damage can be mitigated by armor.
Condition damage bypass armor but can be cleansed.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

Cleanses have not kept up with the rate of condi application though. As long as condi application far outshines cleanses this isn’t a viable argument. Plus, with the simplistic LIFO cleansing system, its trivial to add cover conditions and make it so that the few cleanses the target has can’t actually cleanse the dangerous conditions.

Unless either the amount of cleases are increased substantially (which shouldn’t happen, just more power creep), or a proper cleansing hierarchy is implemented (which should happen regardless) then they aren’t really that great at mitigation anymore.

You actually do have dedicated sustain builds that can keep up with some of the most nasty condition application. For example, I have a healer tempest with soldier rune, diamond skin and cleansing water.

Also, I don’t think you should have all-around builds whose cleansing can keep up with condition application. If your condition cleanse can cover most conditions applied, what is the point of playing condition build anymore? That means you can face tank everything they throw at you and just cleanse them afterwards.

As someone who plays both condi builds (vanilla engi is my condi main), and DPS builds (Daredevil and Druid), I can see why people complain about condition damage, however despite the gamemode (PvP/WvW for myself), you must expect to come across anything and everything and learn to deal with it (Check the gw2 wiki for something called Condition cleanse and Condition Transfer…your welcome). My daredevil (who is my current WvW main atm) falls to condis fast, however like a real gamer, I learn to adapt, which is what people used to do in GW2 about 3 years ago before a “meta” existed. Now that there is this existence, people seemed to have lost their ability to learn to adapt and demand changes for everything and get angry and expect Anet to hold their hands.

Imo, if you don’t want to be a good gamer and adapt or learn to, and instead complain or demand changes, go find an NES and play Mario.

/honest rant and thanks you for reading

Ways of Condition Mitigation the Game shoudl use to make it balanced:

• Sigils – offensive Mitigation of Conditions through Trigger Removal, Trigger Conversion, Trigger Award, Trigger Resistance
• Runes – defensive Mitigation out of Combat Actions like Dodging, Blocking, Healing, Skill Activation, Weapon Swap
• Reduction through Buff Items (PvE/WvW)
• Through an Attribute that reduces received Condition Durations (see my proposed Wisdom as part of one of its two effects) With such an Attribute Effect needs Buff Food to be rebalanced.
• Through Traits which automatically trigger based on your actions either actively or passively Condition Mitigation Effects of all various sorts as part of your Character Customization/Build
• Rework of Boon/Condition System with reduction of both. With lesser Conditions in the Game, have the current Conndition Mitigations also not anymore this huge problem of becoming so quickly overwhelmed by them. Theres alot of potential in merging some of the Conditions. You don’t need to have for every single tiny crap an extra Condition, when some of their effects would work also very well together and would make the end result of the merged Condition alot more meaningful and inpactful for the game, where the two single Conditions before were basically meaningless.
  Example:s
  - Merge Cripple with Torment, as it makes only sense to suffer on damage while moving around with crippled legs or to try to fight with crippled hands!!
  - Merge Burning with Vulnerability as it makes just sense that a burned equipment gets destroyed over time and so can’t be 100% effective anymore in reducing your received damage.
  - Merge Blindness with Weakness and make Blindnes again like in GW1, with longer durations, and 75% Chance to make attacks miss instead of one time 100% misses on very short durations.
  - Remove Immobilize & Fear and change them rather into unique Trait Effects instead of Conditions
  - Merge Poison with Slow.
  That way would we easily get reduced from 14 to 8 Conditions through 2 removals and 4 Merges.

Rebalance then based to these Condition changes the Boons and make them fittingly more meaningful as well and the whole Boon/Condition problem would be finally out of the world and better balanced.
the last thign is then a skill/trait rebalance finetuning in regard of those Boon/Condition Changes by again as like Anet loves it to do so much – Number Adjustments

OriOri.8724:

Odokuro.5049:

Xenesis.6389:

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Not sure what you mean by the, arrow cart comment?

I imagine its a jab at you having Yaks Bend in your signature.

Either way, Vitality is not a mitigation stat. Whether you have 1 vitality or 10,000, you take the same amount of condi damage per tick, so it doesn’t mitigate it at all. What OP is requesting is a proper mitigation stat for condis, just like how armor mitigates power damage by decreasing the damage you take from power attacks.

Vitality lets you increase your HP pool. The larger HP pool you have, the more time you buy yourself to counter-play. It mitigates through the over-time aspect. Direct damage doesn’t work that way because it isn’t per-tick. You can decrease the amount of damage you take over time by using boons or other traits that reduce it or duration.

Just because Anet lifted the 25 stack cap and created some ridiculous situations like with Epidemic doesn’t mean we need to change the condi dmg formula. It means those skills need better balancing. Condition damage has counter-play. This thread is players just looking for more freebie passives.

OriOri.8724:

Exciton.8942:

Direct damage can be mitigated by armor.
Condition damage bypass armor but can be cleansed.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

Cleanses have not kept up with the rate of condi application though.

The same thing happens with direct damage. If you’ve got certain skills/traits on cooldown, you have to actively manage that and not push in.

Just make Retaliation trigger on condi ticks. Many vocal people seem to prefer a gun to the head over any forced solution…

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Odokuro.5049:

Xenesis.6389:

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Not sure what you mean by the, arrow cart comment?

I imagine its a jab at you having Yaks Bend in your signature.

Either way, Vitality is not a mitigation stat. Whether you have 1 vitality or 10,000, you take the same amount of condi damage per tick, so it doesn’t mitigate it at all. What OP is requesting is a proper mitigation stat for condis, just like how armor mitigates power damage by decreasing the damage you take from power attacks.

Vitality lets you increase your HP pool. The larger HP pool you have, the more time you buy yourself to counter-play. It mitigates through the over-time aspect. Direct damage doesn’t work that way because it isn’t per-tick. You can decrease the amount of damage you take over time by using boons or other traits that reduce it or duration.

Just because Anet lifted the 25 stack cap and created some ridiculous situations like with Epidemic doesn’t mean we need to change the condi dmg formula. It means those skills need better balancing. Condition damage has counter-play. This thread is players just looking for more freebie passives.

Once again, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. I hate to do this, but the definition of mitigation is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.”. If the condi ticks are the same damage, then the severity of the condi damage is the exact same.

But since you want to blissfully ignore what mitigate means, I’ll pretend like vitality is a “mitigation” stat against condis. Well by your logic, vitality also mitigates power damage as well, which is also mitigated by toughness. Which means that power damage gets 2 stats to “mitigate” it, whereas condi only “gets” 1.

So regardless, there should be another stat to mitigate condi damage per tick.

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Odokuro.5049:

Xenesis.6389:

Odokuro.5049:

I heard there is this stat, called Vitality, that if you have a pretty decent amount of it, you have a better chance of surviving Conditions, oh, and there is these skills/traits ect. that allow you to remove Conditions, pretty neat right?

I heard there was a discussion about that already and you’re pretty late to the party, were you busy building another arrow cart??

Not sure what you mean by the, arrow cart comment?

I imagine its a jab at you having Yaks Bend in your signature.

Either way, Vitality is not a mitigation stat. Whether you have 1 vitality or 10,000, you take the same amount of condi damage per tick, so it doesn’t mitigate it at all. What OP is requesting is a proper mitigation stat for condis, just like how armor mitigates power damage by decreasing the damage you take from power attacks.

Vitality lets you increase your HP pool. The larger HP pool you have, the more time you buy yourself to counter-play. It mitigates through the over-time aspect. Direct damage doesn’t work that way because it isn’t per-tick. You can decrease the amount of damage you take over time by using boons or other traits that reduce it or duration.

Just because Anet lifted the 25 stack cap and created some ridiculous situations like with Epidemic doesn’t mean we need to change the condi dmg formula. It means those skills need better balancing. Condition damage has counter-play. This thread is players just looking for more freebie passives.

Once again, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. I hate to do this, but the definition of mitigation is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.”. If the condi ticks are the same damage, then the severity of the condi damage is the exact same.

But since you want to blissfully ignore what mitigate means, I’ll pretend like vitality is a “mitigation” stat against condis. Well by your logic, vitality also mitigates power damage as well, which is also mitigated by toughness. Which means that power damage gets 2 stats to “mitigate” it, whereas condi only “gets” 1.

So regardless, there should be another stat to mitigate condi damage per tick.

Keep ignoring the over-time aspect of condition damage and I’ll continue reminding you how larger HP pools mitigate that. Sounds like a win-win situation. Condi doesn’t get just one stat, condi duration is the other stat and there is gear and consumables that help you reduce it. Direct damage gets both toughness and vitality.

Skills that can stack up condis far above the original 25 stacks because they were not later properly balanced are the issue, not the base mechanics. And the main culprit was having a party of necros all spam Epidemic on a “condi pylon”.

The only other thing you could do is make condi do less dmg over all but add in condi crits that would put it in line with power builds due to needed condi dmg crit chase and crit dmg much like power dose. Over all making condi builds much less bunker and more glass canon like dmg builds should be.
You do that or add in a means of dealing with condi set dmg making the bunker builds just that bunker builds and not max dmg builds that are also max def at the same time.

I kinda look at stack cap coming off as basically adding crit damage to conditions already.

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Once again, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. I hate to do this, but the definition of mitigation is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.”. If the condi ticks are the same damage, then the severity of the condi damage is the exact same.

But since you want to blissfully ignore what mitigate means, I’ll pretend like vitality is a “mitigation” stat against condis. Well by your logic, vitality also mitigates power damage as well, which is also mitigated by toughness. Which means that power damage gets 2 stats to “mitigate” it, whereas condi only “gets” 1.

So regardless, there should be another stat to mitigate condi damage per tick.

Keep ignoring the over-time aspect of condition damage and I’ll continue reminding you how larger HP pools mitigate that. Sounds like a win-win situation. Condi doesn’t get just one stat, condi duration is the other stat and there is gear and consumables that help you reduce it. Direct damage gets both toughness and vitality.

Skills that can stack up condis far above the original 25 stacks because they were not later properly balanced are the issue, not the base mechanics. And the main culprit was having a party of necros all spam Epidemic on a “condi pylon”.

Once again, since you can’t seem to wrap your mind around this notion, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. 1 or 10,000 vitality and you still take the same amount of damage per condi tick. The duration of condis has ZERO BEARING on this fact.

You conveniently ignored the second part of my post, because you don’t have a counter argument to it.

And on to your actual comment. You’re now trying to pass condi duration off as mitigation? That’s not how mitigation works Extending or reducing the duration and you still have the same damage per tick. Even if you had 90% duration reduction, 25 stacks of bleeds will deal the same exact damage to you.

Nothing that you have listed is a stat that mitigates condi damage. None of it.

Unless they remove cleanse from the game no primary stat will reduce condi damage.

Cleanse is how it is balanced. A cleanse can negate between 0-100% of the damage from conditions. This means some are immune and some get hit full force. Part of cleanse is supposed to be about promoting active play—but there are a lot of passive cleanses as well so more often it actually is about promoting diverse build design. You can build more or less cleanse into a build through passive and active and reactive traits/utilities or you can choose not to.

I like cleanse because it makes the game more challenging from a theory crafting perspective. I could live in a post cleanse condi reduction world…but could you? Somehow I suspect the answer is no.

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Once again, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. I hate to do this, but the definition of mitigation is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.”. If the condi ticks are the same damage, then the severity of the condi damage is the exact same.

But since you want to blissfully ignore what mitigate means, I’ll pretend like vitality is a “mitigation” stat against condis. Well by your logic, vitality also mitigates power damage as well, which is also mitigated by toughness. Which means that power damage gets 2 stats to “mitigate” it, whereas condi only “gets” 1.

So regardless, there should be another stat to mitigate condi damage per tick.

Keep ignoring the over-time aspect of condition damage and I’ll continue reminding you how larger HP pools mitigate that. Sounds like a win-win situation. Condi doesn’t get just one stat, condi duration is the other stat and there is gear and consumables that help you reduce it. Direct damage gets both toughness and vitality.

Skills that can stack up condis far above the original 25 stacks because they were not later properly balanced are the issue, not the base mechanics. And the main culprit was having a party of necros all spam Epidemic on a “condi pylon”.

Once again, since you can’t seem to wrap your mind around this notion, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. 1 or 10,000 vitality and you still take the same amount of damage per condi tick. The duration of condis has ZERO BEARING on this fact.

You conveniently ignored the second part of my post, because you don’t have a counter argument to it.

And on to your actual comment. You’re now trying to pass condi duration off as mitigation? That’s not how mitigation works Extending or reducing the duration and you still have the same damage per tick. Even if you had 90% duration reduction, 25 stacks of bleeds will deal the same exact damage to you.

Nothing that you have listed is a stat that mitigates condi damage. None of it.

Put this simply:

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more ticks than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Hyper-focusing on per-tick damage when that is only half of the feature of Damage Over Time is extremely misleading. Twenty-five stacks of bleeds deal the same exact damage per-tick but the 90% duration reduction means the skill used doesn’t reach it’s full potential. Tooltips in-game show total condition damage over time so as not to be misleading. If a skill has additional direct damage that pulses, it lists that total too.

Before the 25 stack cap came off, zerg meta utilized negative condi duration gear and/or food in order to mitigate condis. Now we have Resistance which achieves the same result by allowing condis their duration but the damage per-tick is zeroed. That’s active counter-play to condis, not passive negative condi duration.

I don’t think this is a bad thread, although I don’t agree with alot of it. Condi has increased and there has been no balance most noticeably runes after the removal of the cap, Melandru decreased in price although its the counter…..
we’ve got 4 stat armor although its not included and boons are crazy?
the passive active argument is fine, you have to cleanse its a skilled part of the game, anyone that only has utility cleanse in wvw is bs’itting you need loads of passive and active or you are dead, we’ve all re built. people are salty they don’t like it.
I think the sigils and runes need to catch up ,
I like the damage per tick part of wvw , its part of the fun but there needs to be risk reward, although it accumulates over time as opposed to direct damage the castor can disengage. Add in the fact that alot of condi is done at range it leads to a fair amount of standoffs/choke points. a few on hit or on critical rune cleanses would help this, the sigils are one (+random) and the cd’s to long to be useful given the condi spammin in wvw

+ I don’t think resistance is the counter to the condi upgrade its been about for ages its just been tweaked to cycle to counter the spam, not the +stacks. and now everyone is on durability snooze. which doesn’t exactly encourage build diversity

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Once again, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. I hate to do this, but the definition of mitigation is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.”. If the condi ticks are the same damage, then the severity of the condi damage is the exact same.

But since you want to blissfully ignore what mitigate means, I’ll pretend like vitality is a “mitigation” stat against condis. Well by your logic, vitality also mitigates power damage as well, which is also mitigated by toughness. Which means that power damage gets 2 stats to “mitigate” it, whereas condi only “gets” 1.

So regardless, there should be another stat to mitigate condi damage per tick.

Keep ignoring the over-time aspect of condition damage and I’ll continue reminding you how larger HP pools mitigate that. Sounds like a win-win situation. Condi doesn’t get just one stat, condi duration is the other stat and there is gear and consumables that help you reduce it. Direct damage gets both toughness and vitality.

Skills that can stack up condis far above the original 25 stacks because they were not later properly balanced are the issue, not the base mechanics. And the main culprit was having a party of necros all spam Epidemic on a “condi pylon”.

Once again, since you can’t seem to wrap your mind around this notion, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. 1 or 10,000 vitality and you still take the same amount of damage per condi tick. The duration of condis has ZERO BEARING on this fact.

You conveniently ignored the second part of my post, because you don’t have a counter argument to it.

And on to your actual comment. You’re now trying to pass condi duration off as mitigation? That’s not how mitigation works Extending or reducing the duration and you still have the same damage per tick. Even if you had 90% duration reduction, 25 stacks of bleeds will deal the same exact damage to you.

Nothing that you have listed is a stat that mitigates condi damage. None of it.

Put this simply:

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more ticks than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Hyper-focusing on per-tick damage when that is only half of the feature of Damage Over Time is extremely misleading. Twenty-five stacks of bleeds deal the same exact damage per-tick but the 90% duration reduction means the skill used doesn’t reach it’s full potential. Tooltips in-game show total condition damage over time so as not to be misleading. If a skill has additional direct damage that pulses, it lists that total too.

Before the 25 stack cap came off, zerg meta utilized negative condi duration gear and/or food in order to mitigate condis. Now we have Resistance which achieves the same result by allowing condis their duration but the damage per-tick is zeroed. That’s active counter-play to condis, not passive negative condi duration.

I don’t know how I can make this any simpler.

Vitality does not mitigate the damage you get from condis. Believe it or not, even though you refuse to acknowledge damage per tick, having 1 or having 10,000 vitality will not change the damage that a condi stack will do o you. It just won’t. You can pretend all you want that it will, but it doesn’t. Because it doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

Going further, for the second time, even if you incorrectly consider vitality to be mitigation versus condi damage, you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage. In which case power damage would have 2 stats that mitigate it whereas condi only “has” 1.

You can keep trying to pull new arguments out of thin air, but none of them will magically make vitality mitigate condi damage. And none of them will change the fact that power damage has ways to mitigate it through stats, and condis don’t.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

There are so many ways to counter condi and you want a base way where players can simply ignore condi against them? Learn to play.

Honestly it is you condi lovers who need to learn how to play. Don’t you realize that the condis play FOR you? There is a reason something becomes meta… and that is because it is the strongest and easiest thing to do. That said, condi is certainly meta on almost every class nowadays… Engi has avoided the condi meta and always had preferred builds in power, but now they’re running around with flamethrower spamming burn lol. Any person who defends the idea of a condi nerf is just scared that they’ll have to do more than just kite while their enemy’s health ticks away, AND FAST.

Condi damage should never be a main source of damage. It should assist your dps, at most, and provide soft CC pressure (chill, cripple, etc).

OriOri.8724:

you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage.

Quit responding if you are not going to read what I wrote. I’ve acknowledged that twice now.

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage.

Quit responding if you are not going to read what I wrote. I’ve acknowledged that twice now.

Quit acting as if vitality mitigates condi damage then.

Miko.4158:

+ I don’t think resistance is the counter to the condi upgrade its been about for ages its just been tweaked to cycle to counter the spam, not the +stacks. and now everyone is on durability snooze. which doesn’t exactly encourage build diversity

Something that reduces the number of stacks would be interesting.

Melandru and Hoelbrak came down in price due to Resistance spam removing the need to reduce the duration. Rune of the Antitoxin though shot up in price as condition builds overtook power builds. Those price changes reflect how meta has moved from relying upon negative condi duration to resistance for mitigation. We didn’t have good build diversity then, we still don’t.

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage.

Quit responding if you are not going to read what I wrote. I’ve acknowledged that twice now.

Quit acting as if vitality mitigates condi damage then.

Never and I’ve explained rather thoroughly with examples why.

Swagger.1459:

Whether it’s a new character stat, or a current character stat, there should be a stat that provides condi damage mitigation that players can build for.

What problem(s) are you attempting to solve? As it is now, I can go into WvW with full Soldier gear and still be taken down in seconds by direct damage. I can also face condition appliers and get taken down in seconds despite the application of various condition cleanses. I’m not seeing huge differences in effectiveness between the two types of damage, at least from a small encounter perspective.

Of COURSE reducing the duration of an effect is mitigation. A Damage over time effect by definition performs more damge the longer it allowed to run. When you decrease that duration damage is mitigated.

That the intensity per tick stays the same is immaterial . Damage is mitigated.

The simplest example is the real world. When one lessens the duration of a prison sentence of one who has committed a crime it is defined as having been mitigated. That one suffers the loss of liberty equally on any given day , hardly means there no mitigation. By the same token if a persons prison sentence increased then the it deemed an increase in severity.

Anything that lowers the duration of a condition or that removes remaining durations is mitigation. On DOT type conditions anything that increases the duration of the same increases its severity.

OriOri.8724:

Once again, since you can’t seem to wrap your mind around this notion, vitality does not mitigate condi damage. 1 or 10,000 vitality and you still take the same amount of damage per condi tick. The duration of condis has ZERO BEARING on this fact.

You conveniently ignored the second part of my post, because you don’t have a counter argument to it.

And on to your actual comment. You’re now trying to pass condi duration off as mitigation? That’s not how mitigation works Extending or reducing the duration and you still have the same damage per tick. Even if you had 90% duration reduction, 25 stacks of bleeds will deal the same exact damage to you.

Nothing that you have listed is a stat that mitigates condi damage. None of it.

-% Condi duration is absolutely a condi damage mitigation tool. Why you continue to ignore the “over time” aspect of DOT’s/Conditions is obtuse.

But since you want to ignore the “over time” aspect, I can facetiously argue that condi’s are perfectly fine because the per tick damage is nowhere near that of a power skill. You can routinely crit 8-9k on a power skill like backstab/arc divider/gravedigger, you will almost never apply a 9k condi tick on anyone.

But any person not being so obtuse will recognize that condis hurt not just because of their per tick damage, but that it can tick multiple times over a period of time. If you acknowledge that condis hurt because they can tick multiple times, you have to also acknowledge that anything that can reduce the number of ticks of damage a condi does (such as oh I don’t know, condi clear or -% condi duration) will mitigate the damage output.

I agree with the OP and, along with others, have said so before in other posts.

Fundamentally there should never be any boon/trait/stat that negates 100% of damage so resistance needs to be changed to a -33% condi damage single stack boon in the same way that protection works for physical damage. It should stack duration not effect.

A extra stat (Constitution) should be introduced to act for conditions in the same way that toughness works for direct damage.

The main reason for suggesting these changes is simple:

There should always be a trade-off between maximising damage and maximising survivability. For physical damage that trade is, for example, zerker vs soldiers stats. Condition damage builds do not face the same trade off at the moment, and this is part of the reason condi builds are so popular.

It is also important that the stat that reduces the physical damage (toughness) should not be the same one that reduces condition damage – again players should have to trade between damage and survivability against physical damage and separately against condi damage.

Using Constitution, the ultimate bunker build would be Constitution, Toughness, Vitality. Pure survivability but with the offensive properties of a rabid lettuce.

Or under my Dual Effect System it would be Toughness, Vitality, Wisdom, just with the difference, that each of those 3 Attributes would be more impactful, meaningful and would have also like the offensive Attritube some synergy with each other.

Toughness with the Effect to reduce the Chance to get critically hit, would make it better against Direct Damage and would balance the partwise ridiculous high bursts that you receive way too often in short time, than the outdated Health System can cover up
Vitality with merged in Healing Efficiency would help those defensive builds to be also better als Self Sustain and Heal Support, while creatign a free Space for an other more useful new Attribute – Agility
Together with Wisdom (or Constitution, however we will want to call it now) we can mitigate Condition damage over time by reducing the maximum amount of time Conditions will be working on you, while boosting with the Attribute also the fficiency of your Boons that will help your Self Defense, Sustain, offense and general Support of others also again and synergizes in regard of heal Support then well together with Vitality and Self Defense.

Boon Efficiency is something, thats missing to improve the Boons agaisnt al this Condition Spam.
How could Boon Efficiency work.

Think of a Base Stack of Might granting you 35 Power in case of my System 35 Precision.
Boon Efficiency would increase now the Base Effect with every Point in it by 0,05%
So if you have for example now 1000 Points in Wisdom, then this Attribute would increase the Efficiency of all your Boons by 50%
A Might with 1000 Points in Wisdom would increase the Efficiency from 35 Points then to uprounded 18 Points (17,5), or in case Anet woudl counterbalance under my System to base Value down from 35 to 30, then it would be at 50% a flat increase of 15 Points, so that your Might Boon under Wisdom with 1000 Points in that Attribute would give you instead 45 Points on Power and Precision under my system.

So a really valuable Attribute for any defensive, supportive Build in GW2, especially for Classes that are alot about Boons, like Guardians, Engineers or Mesmers.
If the same Classes receive from those Attributes then also the synergy of increase defense agaisnt both Damage Types, better Self Sustain and Outgoing Heals and reduced Chance to receive self critical hits from enemies, then this would be really great for those Classes and defensive builds would be more equal finally to offensive builds.

A Class, that isn’t so extremely much about Boons wouldl take for example instead of Wisdom then Agility, to become more effective at dodgign due to improved Endurance Regen, which is also a very defensive helpful Attribute Effect that is since release day missing, that should be part of the game to balance classes and the combat system better. The included Utility Skill Cooldown Reduction that comes in with Agility will be also very helpful to become through this Skill better at Support, Self Defense ect. but in a different way thats not based directly on improved Condition Mitigation, Removal ect. pp but more in a general way.

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage.

Quit responding if you are not going to read what I wrote. I’ve acknowledged that twice now.

Quit acting as if vitality mitigates condi damage then.

Never and I’ve explained rather thoroughly with examples why.

No, you haven’t. All you’ve done is ignore my arguments. Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all. But even though you have deluded yourself into believing this, you still can’t tell me why power damage gets 2 stats that mitigate it, whereas condi only gets 1. You refuse to answer that, and you have not presented a single convincing argument that vitality mitigates condi damage. Because it doesn’t. No matter how much vitality you have, condis still deal the same kittening damage to you. That isn’t mitigation, no matter how much you want it to be true.

@OhHellzno – That isn’t a stat. OP very clearly requested a condi mitigation stat. Something inherent to your gear, not something you needed to use a consumable or runes for. There is a difference between those.

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis. Its just that there is no stat in the game which reduces the duration of condis, so its pointless to look at it when OP requested a stat to mitigate condi damage.

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

you have to then say its also mitigation versus power damage.

Quit responding if you are not going to read what I wrote. I’ve acknowledged that twice now.

Quit acting as if vitality mitigates condi damage then.

Never and I’ve explained rather thoroughly with examples why.

No, you haven’t. All you’ve done is ignore my arguments. Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all. But even though you have deluded yourself into believing this, you still can’t tell me why power damage gets 2 stats that mitigate it, whereas condi only gets 1. You refuse to answer that, and you have not presented a single convincing argument that vitality mitigates condi damage. Because it doesn’t. No matter how much vitality you have, condis still deal the same kittening damage to you. That isn’t mitigation, no matter how much you want it to be true.

@OhHellzno – That isn’t a stat. OP very clearly requested a condi mitigation stat. Something inherent to your gear, not something you needed to use a consumable or runes for. There is a difference between those.

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis. Its just that there is no stat in the game which reduces the duration of condis, so its pointless to look at it when OP requested a stat to mitigate condi damage.

Exactly

Conditions work differently then raw damage and one cannot claim that because there no STAT that lessons durations , that this somehow unbalanced or wrong.

Condition cleanse has no equivalent in the Physical raw damage world. Once damage taken , and while that damage can be lessened BEFORE it applied , that damage is taken.

If my evade fails , or my armor and toughness and protection still allow 6000 damage to get through, I have taken that 6000 damage and the only way to recover from that is the heals.

With conditions, while there no stat that can decrease durations, once a condition lands due to having not evaded or blocked the application (identical to power here in every respect) then there another means to get rid of Extra damage and that a cleanse that can be used to eliminate the duration entirely.

They function in different manners and it a fact that if you have more condition cleanses you will take less damage from conditions and those condition cleanses are USELESS against Phyiscal damage, just as it a fact that if you have higher toughness you will take less damage from a physical attack while that extra armor will be useless against Condition damage.

The Stat that mitigates against Power damage is up front because power damage is not a DOT. The thing used to mitigate Condition damage is done after the application via a Cleanse because it IS Dot. No extra “stat” is required.

The more toughness you take the less raw physical damage you will take. The more cleanses you take , the less Condition damage you will take. These are both mitigation measures.

Using the same argument of those pro stat, were a stat used to lessen conditions effects than all of those cleanses would need to be removed. What you have then is yet more PASSIVE ganeplay as the always ON stat does all the work for you. This does not make for a better game. Knowing when to use a cleanse and using it at the right time is something the player is actively in charge of rather then just letting the stat to it for him.

What is being promoted here is passive gameplay over active.

I’ve never seen anyone have difficulty clearing conditions, even myself whose slow to react at cleansing. Even after applying a barrage of conditions to a target, I’ve never seen them tick longer than a second or 2.

People also need to understand that if they get their wish what this does to certain classes. Re-balance? Um yea.. not going to happen, you now Anet’s track record on that so eliminate any thought of re-balancing around a condition mitigating stat.

Also understand what this does to a balled up melee train. Understand it takes little to no effort for players to gear themselves up in survival gear and stay close to a tag; they don’t even need to be in TS. It takes no effort (maybe a bit of convincing), to have 1 or 2 dedicated water eles following this melee train around making them nearly invincible. Throw a rev or 2 in there for resistances and that’s all you need. Now some players want the ability for this same set up to mitigate condition length and damage? I often wonder if people even bother listening to themselves.. It makes me wonder if these same players want WvW destroyed, because such an implementation would weed down players to a few niche builds while destroying a couple of classes completely. You think WvW is hurting now? Just watch if some of you get your wish.

The reason we don’t see a trait to mitigate condition duration or damage is because it’s not needed. It’s not an issue; it never was an issue, and it never will be an issue. There are far too many condition cleanses at players disposals, and realistically, some of those should even be scaled back. If you as a player find you keep dying to conditions yet still refuse to put a condition cleanse on your skill bar, that is your problem. I only carry 1 on me, and that is all that is needed.

You do realise that not everyone runs in a zerg?

Conditions are much less of a problem in a large group – both for doing damage and for clearing them, and I agree with you here. However, small parties and solo players can’t just throw in a water ele or two and a couple of extra revenants… So what do you propose for these players?

Also how do you propose to balance condi damage and physical damage abilities when conditions are easier to stack, you can stack multiple types at once and you only need two stats to maximise condi damage compared to three for physical?

Yuffi.2430:

You do realise that not everyone runs in a zerg?

Conditions are much less of a problem in a large group – both for doing damage and for clearing them, and I agree with you here. However, small parties and solo players can’t just throw in a water ele or two and a couple of extra revenants… So what do you propose for these players?

Also how do you propose to balance condi damage and physical damage abilities when conditions are easier to stack, you can stack multiple types at once and you only need two stats to maximise condi damage compared to three for physical?

If I perform three attacks in a row that stack a condition the only reason the conditions “stack” is because they are DOT effects. When I do three physical attacks in a row the damage is applied on each and no further time is needed for that damage to have its full effect on the target.

Three Unloads in a row do not stack any conditions but EACH of them will stack thousands of points of damage that once applied can no longer be addressed save through a heal. When I see three unloads against a boss total tens of thousands in damage on a screen it because all of that damage stacked . No duration is needed on them because that damage is instant.

Can you clairify what you mean when you suggest “conditions are easier to stack”? They are easier to stack then what? Virtually every weaponskill attack has a phyical damage component. That some have conditions added does not mean the ones with conditions are somehow easier to perfrom.

Conditions are weird. When i fight against good players they barely lose hp no matter ho hard i smash my keyboard. On the other hand some players die after couple skills. Could somebody explain how this is possible. I read here that conditions are so op and don’t take any kind of skill, but i still can’t even make dent.