Guild Wars 2

Junkpile.7439:

Conditions are weird. When i fight against good players they barely lose hp no matter ho hard i smash my keyboard. On the other hand some players die after couple skills. Could somebody explain how this is possible. I read here that conditions are so op and don’t take any kind of skill, but i still can’t even make dent.

Resistance boon makes you completely immune to all condi damage and all condi effects. Its ridiculously broken and is handed out like candy to some builds.

Yuffi.2430:

You do realise that not everyone runs in a zerg?

Conditions are much less of a problem in a large group – both for doing damage and for clearing them, and I agree with you here. However, small parties and solo players can’t just throw in a water ele or two and a couple of extra revenants… So what do you propose for these players?

Also how do you propose to balance condi damage and physical damage abilities when conditions are easier to stack, you can stack multiple types at once and you only need two stats to maximise condi damage compared to three for physical?

To your point on Zergs. Just as it true that not everyone “runs in a zerg” , not everyone roams. If you want to make a case that those that roam should be given more mitigation measures for conditions because outside a Zerg conditions more dangerous, then the opposite argument can be made from the perspective of Condition builds that want to be more effective inside of a zerg.

Now to the roaming scenario specifically. I play all professions and have around 20 toons. 80 percent being power. I tend to prefer roaming type gameplay ither solo or in small group and of the professions spend most time on thief and warrior.

I have two warriors that are polar opposite. One has traited to be very condition resistant WHILE solo and does very well against condition builds. He has made sacrifices to do so but it hard for a condition build to kill him. The other has made deliberate choices not to be as resistant to conditions and is more susceptible to the same.

I have two power thieves that have made the same choices. One can cleanse or resist conditions more readily and the other can not.

My power thief that has sacrificed condition cleanses does much better against other power builds then the one that has taken more condition cleanses. My power theif that has more cleanses does better against condition builds than those with raw power.

Those choices are available.

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but your argument using vitality is not rational by any means…

There is no core character stat that directly reduces incoming condition damage the way toughness and armor function, and you are more than welcome to confirm that with any developer.

Swagger.1459:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but your argument using vitality is not rational by any means…

There is no core character stat that directly reduces incoming condition damage the way toughness and armor function, and you are more than welcome to confirm that with any developer.

Its not about reducing the blunt condi number but reducing its effectiveness at killing players.
As things stand hp is balanced before they added in condi stacking and higher over all gear for condi dmg. In a lot of ways the lost of gurd stacks (vit from killing wvw npc) has pushed wvw to being more condi base then burst power dmg base.

Jski.6180:

Swagger.1459:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but your argument using vitality is not rational by any means…

There is no core character stat that directly reduces incoming condition damage the way toughness and armor function, and you are more than welcome to confirm that with any developer.

Its not about reducing the blunt condi number but reducing its effectiveness at killing players.
As things stand hp is balanced before they added in condi stacking and higher over all gear for condi dmg. In a lot of ways the lost of gurd stacks (vit from killing wvw npc) has pushed wvw to being more condi base then burst power dmg base.

Again, vitality protects against both power and condi damage, while power is still mitigated by toughness. Why is it that there are 2 stats against power but only 1 against condis?

OriOri.8724:

Jski.6180:

Swagger.1459:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but your argument using vitality is not rational by any means…

There is no core character stat that directly reduces incoming condition damage the way toughness and armor function, and you are more than welcome to confirm that with any developer.

Its not about reducing the blunt condi number but reducing its effectiveness at killing players.
As things stand hp is balanced before they added in condi stacking and higher over all gear for condi dmg. In a lot of ways the lost of gurd stacks (vit from killing wvw npc) has pushed wvw to being more condi base then burst power dmg base.

Again, vitality protects against both power and condi damage, while power is still mitigated by toughness. Why is it that there are 2 stats against power but only 1 against condis?

Well that because when the game first came out condi dmg was utility aimed not the dmg aimed monster that it is today but it was buffed though the other things that counter dmg where not. There more that counters power dmg then just toughness and most counter dmg in the game is aimed at dealing with power dmg. See weakness protection and how much blunt dmg taken -% there is.

Why has everyone overlooked Healing Power? (or did I miss it?)

In the GW2 universe it is the one trie opposite to condition based damage. The issue atm in WvW is that, even though I have a Dragon Hunter built for max healing power, you instantly get 60 stacks of bleed + 30+ stacks of fire plus everything else under the sun, which gives me less than 1 second to react, and even if I do get it cleansed it goes straight back on.

So in effect the issue atm is that condition based damage has far outweighed physical damage, which naturally has Armor and Vitality and Healing Power to offset the Physical damage. Sure people have mentioned food to reduce duration/damage, but this food does jack when the total bomb from an Epi ticks for less than a second at more than your combined Vitality and Healing Power. At least with a Physical bomb most classes have the ability to either absorb or even be immune to it for a short period of time.

This brings us to the balancing, why oh why is WvW based on a PVE rule set when it is a PVP game type? Wouldnt it make more sense, and easier to balance moving to the PVP system. Sure if damage is decreased everyones kittens will be effected but it really does need to happen

For this issue, I’d wait until a full rework of the trinkets, along ascended trinket crafting.

Right now, trinkets upgrades have just stats, except doubloons, and then ascended only have infusion slots, with no slots for trinket upgrades.

I’d change this to move all stats from upgrades to the trinkets like in ascended trinkets, changing all trinket upgrades to give % effects properties like those seen in runes, and giving ascended trinkets slots for these upgrades too.

Runes with % effect properties would lose them all, replaced with only stats or skill-triggering effects.

So, for example, Melandru runes would have their first % stats property replaced with vitality, and the 6th property will be a skill that triggers on emergencies causing a stun break, removing conditions and healing a bit.

So, now where you get the -% condition duration and -% stun duration? Trinkets.

Universal upgrades would be renamed to a single consistent name like “Charms”, and changed to work only on trinkets, and their properties would be changed from giving stats to cause % properties like doubloons with heir %boon duration. But of course fixed so they scale down, since right now doubloons do not scale their % boon duration, that needs to be fixed.

Charms would be changed to 3 rarities like other upgrades: master, rare and exotic. Generally they will be One with 5%, one with 10% and one with 15% effect, but depending on the effect it’ll be more or less.

Like sigils, Charms would not stack. So you’d be able to bring a -10% and a -15% condition duration charms in your trinkets to have the -25% lost in the Rune of Melandru, but 2 -15%stun charms would not give you -30% stun, since they won’t stack.

In PvP, this would be done as a new upgrade slot between the amulet and the rune slots with preset combinations like “-25% condition duration on self, -25% stun duration on self”, or “+25% boon duration, +25% condition duration”.

The trinket upgrades that have visual effects would also be updated to the new system, and since ascended would also use the new system, you’d be able to equip them on ascended trinkets.

Jski.6180:

OriOri.8724:

Jski.6180:

Swagger.1459:

Chaba.5410:

OriOri.8724:

Vitality doesn’t mitigate condi damage at all.

…

I am not ignoring the over time aspect of condis.

Here it is again for you. I think you’re still struggling with the concept of “more than” and “over time”. DoT is a difficult concept to understand because it is easy to forget that damage totals require time and mitigation of it includes time-based solutions.

HP pool of 10,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 1000 ticks to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 10,000k to cause death.

vs.

HP pool of 15,000k
Condi dmg per tick of ~ 100 takes 500 more seconds than above to cause death.
Direct dmg requires single “tick” of 5k more than above to cause death.

Player with the stacked Vitality/increased HP pool has 500 more seconds in the above scenario to remove the condition before death than the player who didn’t invest in Vitality.

Good thing Anet devs understand DoT mechanics and provide damage totals over time in the skill tips, not per-tick amounts.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but your argument using vitality is not rational by any means…

There is no core character stat that directly reduces incoming condition damage the way toughness and armor function, and you are more than welcome to confirm that with any developer.

Its not about reducing the blunt condi number but reducing its effectiveness at killing players.
As things stand hp is balanced before they added in condi stacking and higher over all gear for condi dmg. In a lot of ways the lost of gurd stacks (vit from killing wvw npc) has pushed wvw to being more condi base then burst power dmg base.

Again, vitality protects against both power and condi damage, while power is still mitigated by toughness. Why is it that there are 2 stats against power but only 1 against condis?

Well that because when the game first came out condi dmg was utility aimed not the dmg aimed monster that it is today but it was buffed though the other things that counter dmg where not. There more that counters power dmg then just toughness and most counter dmg in the game is aimed at dealing with power dmg. See weakness protection and how much blunt dmg taken -% there is.

This is what so many people fail to recognize.

Almost very single weapon skill, utility skill, and trait in their design in GW2 was originally made without condition damage in mind. The condition damage stat after release didn’t even exist until later on. It was a source of damage output for “true damage” for tanks and might-heavy builds.

The game has inflated condition potency so much, while also introducing Dire/TB gear and so much power damage negation, that there’s very little associated risk to running the build/style and not a lot designed inherently to negate it within the core functionality of the game. Yes, there is resistance and cleanses, but that doesn’t mean much. Cleanses are necessary when against power builds, too, for the sake of managing control effects and utility, and there are several builds able to achieve 90% reductions in incoming power damage which have no effect on conditions. Most players since HoT are running close to 50% or more permanently. Arguing against this is just simply arguing against fact.

It’s also why cleanses are so inconsistent between professions/builds. They were initially meant more for control and a smaller DoT as a side effect rather than just raw damage numbers.

So there needs to be some fundamental change to how conditions work in order to balance them. I don’t think a negation stat is the way to go. It doesn’t solve any problems unless that negation is applied to pretty much every other set.

It’s unlikely ANet will revisit all weapon skills and traits and re-design them. They can’t even do that with the most useless of weapons as it is. So that’s off the table.

The alternative is reducing baseline condition potency and durations across applications of effects, and including critical conditions which DoT for double (near current values susceptible to testing), and then keeping Expertise around and making it a bit more accessible. This ends up nerfing kits like Dire/TB as burst-DoT-tanks while not changing squishier condition kits, if not slightly buffing them.

Though this is equally unlikely since it’d require a rework of existing gear combos and a slight revision of numbers across the board in general, which has also proven to be very demanding from ANet.

Its not that a lot of people fail to realize what conditions were originally designed as, its more that more and more players now are realizing that conditions have evolved, but the countermeasures have not evolved with them.

Condition damage has been buffed to the point of competing with power damage now, yet we don’t have a stat that mitigates condition damage like we do for power damage.

Condition application has gone through the roof, but the amount of cleanses have remained more or less the same.

Condition bombs have become more potent, and doubling down on the above point its trivial to add multiple cover conditions to take away the power of the few cleanses that classes have. A cleansing hierarchy would almost eliminate this problem, but we still don’t have one.

Its fine if ANet wants to make condition damage a valid source of damage. Its not fine for ANet to do that and not give players the same ability to mitigate damage from condition builds. That’s why some things are needed at this point:

• Applying damaging conditions should break stealth. Conditions are a valid source of damage now, its stupid that you can load someone up without being revealed.

• Overly tanky condi gear needs to be banned from WvW. Again, condition damage has been buffed to being on par with and sometimes more powerful than power damage. Good game balance means you need to give up defensive stats to load up on offensive stats, but dire and trailblazers gear means you no longer have to do that with condi builds.

• Resistance needs to be brought in line with protection. No more ignoring the control aspects of condis. You should have to cleanse those to ignore the control aspects. And no more ignoring all condi damage, ignore only ~33-40% of it. A few things should be reverted from resistance to being an effect that does grant total immunity to condis and soft control effects (like berserkers stance). Those should also have their base duration lowered by 1-2 seconds since they are now un-corruptable/un-strippable.

• “Soft cleanses” need to be brought to the game. These won’t cleanse any conditions, but will reduce the duration of X condis on you by Y seconds (usually 1-3 second reduction).

• Then one stat needs to mitigate condi damage like toughness mitigates power damage. It can mitigate it in various ways (lower the duration of condis on you, decrease damage per tick, perhaps both). But it needs to be a stat, not something you need to rely on food/utilities/runes/sigils for. It should be something that can be inherent to gear.

As long as ANet is going to treat condi damage as a valid primary damage source, then it needs to be fully treated as a valid primary damage source. No more boons that make you immune to it. A stat that helps mitigate it. A cleansing hierarchy so that our primary defense against condis isn’t completely nullified by cover conditions that are far too trivial to apply nowadays.