Guild Wars 2

Anet? Hello? Started with necro, mes, thief, now ranger & rev. Feel like next expansion is gonna be more cancerous for wvw in terms of ppl using condi spam builds

Anet loves condis for some reason. Every “balance” patch lately is effectively “buffed condi, nerfed power”. I don’t think they actually playtest this stuff at all, and certainly not in WvW—if they had, they’d have seen how little fun this “meta” is.

It’s out of control even in PvE. Just tried it out, and I can out-DPS my power-based main, which I’ve been playing for two years, with several condi classes/builds despite never having used them before and not even knowing their rotations—by 30-40%. WTF, Anet.

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

Come on there needs to be a happy middle.

At no point should 1 be that much weaker then the other and right now it is.

You hit the nail on the head when talking about power over condi for years. The answer is to not to the exact opposite but find that line in the middle of Yin and Yang.

They can never find a happy medium.

First reigned power for years and people QQ’d they wanted condi buffed. They went and buffed condi and now people QQ it’s too OP and they want power back.

Rinse and repeat.

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

Well, you’re not wrong, but I think we traded it for something worse.

Zerker at least fits the action-oriented combat system they set up. Condis do not in their current form.

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

Found the PVE troll

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

The problem is, to be a zerker you need power, precision and ferocity (no space for vitality or toughness). To be a condi, you just need condi (and so expertise, if you want), and this give to you 2/1 other parameters to choose

Zephyra.4709:

They can never find a happy medium.

First reigned power for years and people QQ’d they wanted condi buffed. They went and buffed condi and now people QQ it’s too OP and they want power back.

Rinse and repeat.

The problem is that with zerker you can: evade, block, run away, … and there are tons of “no-damage-suffering” abilities. For condi you have: 1 sec of resistance, maybe (if you put in your build, leaving out something else), and some conditions cleaner, maybe (same as before), and often not even far enough. You cannot dodge (conditions often pulse, etc.), same thing for blocks, and running away is harder, since they are AoE or long range.. So, even in 2014, condi was quite kitten, now is far too heavy

Condi spam meta is anet streamlining the game so you don’t need any skills other than facerolling your keyboard to feel important and ‘powerful’.
I purposely avoid playing condi specs because it bores me to death, much like pve does.

Eventine.8024:

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

The problem is, to be a zerker you need power, precision and ferocity (no space for vitality or toughness). To be a condi, you just need condi (and so expertise, if you want), and this give to you 2/1 other parameters to choose

That is false. There is a GOOD reason why viper with a bit of sinister or even rampager is the optimal build for all condi classes, not dire. And its a HUGE difference. Going full dire cuts your deeps in half or in some cases (build / class depending) you go as low as doing 1/3 of what you do otherwise. You do not go full viper either as you are going to hit the caps and waste stats, hence the mix.

Even when I go tanky I do not go full dire. You still need to keep at least some crit rate and some duration. Without duration all of your soft CC becomes ineffective and without crit + duration all your damage stacks drop off faster then you can apply them.

Running dire on necro for example, is equivalent to running PVT guard with lootstick + whatever. Situationally, depending on cleanses and resists, the necro deeps will be lower or higher then the lootstick guard which is more consistant.

The things I see that need a change are baseline stats across the board for everything. When A-net switched from havingstats on traits + gear to gear only, thats when the powercreep started because the trade offs disappeared. You can now be in full zerker and still be super tanky (ex: war, scrapper), albeit, only as long as your CDs last, likewise you can run full viper / sinister and still have many defenses (ex: staff thief, reaper, mes).

If they were to lower baseline stats across the board then people will have to have either heavy trade offs or go somewhat hybrid on their gear thus lowering overall effectiveness.

2 other tihngs I see. First too many cover condis from non condi players. This greatly reduces effectiveness of cleansing, resistance, -condi duration etc.

2nd, there is no reason to have more then 25 stacks of anything on any player, be it boon or condi, all this does is clog up the servers. Anyone with 20ish stacks of any damage condi + couple stacks of another + another will still drop just same as if they had 40ish or whatever stacks on them, only there would be less calculations for server to perform. Though I do understand there is an issue here with getting kill credits, you can graze someone with power hits and get kill credit whereas you have to do a lot more with condi to get it, so this may be tough to balance or accomplish.

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

In PvE and ZvZ where you had capped condition stacks and less applicability, yes.

But in small-scale WvW, conditions on a number of builds have been dominant since 2012.

And zerk gear has never been overly-dominant/best in WvW for any build except backline staff ele during the hammertrain meta. The rest is people playing it because they like it more. The notions of berserker gear being optimal were literally restricted only to PvE stack’n’clear speedrun groups prior to the condition changes.

Tongku.5326:

Eventine.8024:

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

The problem is, to be a zerker you need power, precision and ferocity (no space for vitality or toughness). To be a condi, you just need condi (and so expertise, if you want), and this give to you 2/1 other parameters to choose

That is false. There is a GOOD reason why viper with a bit of sinister or even rampager is the optimal build for all condi classes, not dire. And its a HUGE difference. Going full dire cuts your deeps in half or in some cases (build / class depending) you go as low as doing 1/3 of what you do otherwise. You do not go full viper either as you are going to hit the caps and waste stats, hence the mix.

Even when I go tanky I do not go full dire. You still need to keep at least some crit rate and some duration. Without duration all of your soft CC becomes ineffective and without crit + duration all your damage stacks drop off faster then you can apply them.

Running dire on necro for example, is equivalent to running PVT guard with lootstick + whatever. Situationally, depending on cleanses and resists, the necro deeps will be lower or higher then the lootstick guard which is more consistant.

The things I see that need a change are baseline stats across the board for everything. When A-net switched from havingstats on traits + gear to gear only, thats when the powercreep started because the trade offs disappeared. You can now be in full zerker and still be super tanky (ex: war, scrapper), albeit, only as long as your CDs last, likewise you can run full viper / sinister and still have many defenses (ex: staff thief, reaper, mes).

If they were to lower baseline stats across the board then people will have to have either heavy trade offs or go somewhat hybrid on their gear thus lowering overall effectiveness.

2 other tihngs I see. First too many cover condis from non condi players. This greatly reduces effectiveness of cleansing, resistance, -condi duration etc.

2nd, there is no reason to have more then 25 stacks of anything on any player, be it boon or condi, all this does is clog up the servers. Anyone with 20ish stacks of any damage condi + couple stacks of another + another will still drop just same as if they had 40ish or whatever stacks on them, only there would be less calculations for server to perform. Though I do understand there is an issue here with getting kill credits, you can graze someone with power hits and get kill credit whereas you have to do a lot more with condi to get it, so this may be tough to balance or accomplish.

You don’t play WvW or pay much attention to how stats work, do you?

Nobody runs DPS condi kits in WvW save maybe a very few number of roamers. Dire was deemed too overpowered for sPvP because it is mathematically completely and totally busted OP. TB’s just as bad.

The output damage isn’t even close to Soldier stats because skill-per-skill many condition abilities apply higher damage from conditions alone per cast than even berserker gear, and further, conditions ignore all armor and protection, while soldier gear does not. Prot and armor boosts are way more common than Resistance.

The justification of more durable condi builds was based on how conditions builds couldn’t deal burst damage. You’d be stupid to say they still can’t burst when I can take a necro of thief and right off the start of combat start ticking for 10k per second with almost no buildup time.

For kill credit you’re still wrong again; you have to do more than graze them. It’s based on max HP % and a timer. It doesn’t take much at all to get credit, but a random low-coefficient skill on a build not rocking lots of power/crit may miss out similarly as often.

Actually they removed Soliders and Dire from sPvP to reduce bunker meta and promote a faster rate of kills (though HoT brought some bunker back).

The reason to take Dire as a WvW roamer has far more to do with needing to survive 1v3 or 1v4 long enough to retreat. Sure, I’d spec for more damage but I find in many situations survivability is more important (harder to kill people but I’m not running a one-shot build—if I one shot you that’s on you).

saerni.2584:

Actually they removed Soliders and Dire from sPvP to reduce bunker meta and promote a faster rate of kills (though HoT brought some bunker back).

The reason to take Dire as a WvW roamer has far more to do with needing to survive 1v3 or 1v4 long enough to retreat. Sure, I’d spec for more damage but I find in many situations survivability is more important (harder to kill people but I’m not running a one-shot build—if I one shot you that’s on you).

Correct. This claim made all the time, that being “they had to remove DIRE from PVp because it OP” . It nothing of the sort or both Soldiers and Celestial (and a number of other combinations) would be called OP. They removed them because the matches in a five player format dragged on too long with the bunker builds and given there no food or utility boosts and the amount of raw damage that can be put out limited certain armor types would just make fights go on forever.

In WvW not only is there foods and other consumables , but there significant population differences wherein one side can have a significant advantage at any given time and pump out all the damage needed to take down anyone. Added to that the matches last a week. There no rationale to “speeding up” a given fight as there is in PvP.

The usual overused “condi issue” put aside, I feel like the sudden influx of new players shifted the meta. I only play small scale, there’re encounters everywhere, and I’ve been seeing more and more power-stunlock builds the last two weeks.

Even power mesmers are now being a thing. So, anyone else has this feeling the new meta fashion is shifting ?

DeceiverX.8361:

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

In PvE and ZvZ where you had capped condition stacks and less applicability, yes.

But in small-scale WvW, conditions on a number of builds have been dominant since 2012.

And zerk gear has never been overly-dominant/best in WvW for any build except backline staff ele during the hammertrain meta. The rest is people playing it because they like it more. The notions of berserker gear being optimal were literally restricted only to PvE stack’n’clear speedrun groups prior to the condition changes.

Tongku.5326:

Eventine.8024:

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

The problem is, to be a zerker you need power, precision and ferocity (no space for vitality or toughness). To be a condi, you just need condi (and so expertise, if you want), and this give to you 2/1 other parameters to choose

That is false. There is a GOOD reason why viper with a bit of sinister or even rampager is the optimal build for all condi classes, not dire. And its a HUGE difference. Going full dire cuts your deeps in half or in some cases (build / class depending) you go as low as doing 1/3 of what you do otherwise. You do not go full viper either as you are going to hit the caps and waste stats, hence the mix.

Even when I go tanky I do not go full dire. You still need to keep at least some crit rate and some duration. Without duration all of your soft CC becomes ineffective and without crit + duration all your damage stacks drop off faster then you can apply them.

Running dire on necro for example, is equivalent to running PVT guard with lootstick + whatever. Situationally, depending on cleanses and resists, the necro deeps will be lower or higher then the lootstick guard which is more consistant.

The things I see that need a change are baseline stats across the board for everything. When A-net switched from havingstats on traits + gear to gear only, thats when the powercreep started because the trade offs disappeared. You can now be in full zerker and still be super tanky (ex: war, scrapper), albeit, only as long as your CDs last, likewise you can run full viper / sinister and still have many defenses (ex: staff thief, reaper, mes).

If they were to lower baseline stats across the board then people will have to have either heavy trade offs or go somewhat hybrid on their gear thus lowering overall effectiveness.

2 other tihngs I see. First too many cover condis from non condi players. This greatly reduces effectiveness of cleansing, resistance, -condi duration etc.

2nd, there is no reason to have more then 25 stacks of anything on any player, be it boon or condi, all this does is clog up the servers. Anyone with 20ish stacks of any damage condi + couple stacks of another + another will still drop just same as if they had 40ish or whatever stacks on them, only there would be less calculations for server to perform. Though I do understand there is an issue here with getting kill credits, you can graze someone with power hits and get kill credit whereas you have to do a lot more with condi to get it, so this may be tough to balance or accomplish.

You don’t play WvW or pay much attention to how stats work, do you?

Nobody runs DPS condi kits in WvW save maybe a very few number of roamers. Dire was deemed too overpowered for sPvP because it is mathematically completely and totally busted OP. TB’s just as bad.

The output damage isn’t even close to Soldier stats because skill-per-skill many condition abilities apply higher damage from conditions alone per cast than even berserker gear, and further, conditions ignore all armor and protection, while soldier gear does not. Prot and armor boosts are way more common than Resistance.

The justification of more durable condi builds was based on how conditions builds couldn’t deal burst damage. You’d be stupid to say they still can’t burst when I can take a necro of thief and right off the start of combat start ticking for 10k per second with almost no buildup time.

For kill credit you’re still wrong again; you have to do more than graze them. It’s based on max HP % and a timer. It doesn’t take much at all to get credit, but a random low-coefficient skill on a build not rocking lots of power/crit may miss out similarly as often.

Actually I play WVW and have done so for as long as there has been WVW. And I play it on all classes running a variety of builds, some power, some condi, some both + hybrid.

And my main condi toons are either more towards DPS side (almost glass) or hybrid. And I stand by everything I have stated, its not hard to tell who is who and running what gear nowadays you know, there are tools for that and if you weren’t a scrub you’d be running them too.

I would recommend you get out of your preset 2-3 years ago “dire” mentality and try it out before you spew complete and utter bull kitten the vast majority of which comes from heresay without you having any 1st hand experience whatsoever.

ThomasC.1056:

The usual overused “condi issue” put aside, I feel like the sudden influx of new players shifted the meta. I only play small scale, there’re encounters everywhere, and I’ve been seeing more and more power-stunlock builds the last two weeks.

Even power mesmers are now being a thing. So, anyone else has this feeling the new meta fashion is shifting ?

On my end I’ve seen an influx of necros especially in this last matchup, but now I also see a lot more classes and builds that I don’t get to see as often.

I’m in T1

When roaming, you can’t seem to find anything besides Condi Mesmer/Chrono, Vault Spam DD, or D/D Condi-Evade DD.

I’m here trying to not cave and give into the cheese that is condi-builds, but crap, when all they have to do is whiff me with attacks to get several or more stacks of several or more conditions, is bewildering.

I remember when running a condi-build was all about having skillful play to maintain stacks, and ticks. But now with all the +condition duration foods/buffs/sigils/runes/specs/armors/weapons, ect. condition builds are so hands-off, and passive.

You know when a class or build needs to be toned down, when, the majority of roamers/small groups run the same things over and over.

Odokuro.5049:

I’m in T1

When roaming, you can’t seem to find anything besides Condi Mesmer/Chrono, Vault Spam DD, or D/D Condi-Evade DD.

I’m here trying to not cave and give into the cheese that is condi-builds, but crap, when all they have to do is whiff me with attacks to get several or more stacks of several or more conditions, is bewildering.

I remember when running a condi-build was all about having skillful play to maintain stacks, and ticks. But now with all the +condition duration foods/buffs/sigils/runes/specs/armors/weapons, ect. condition builds are so hands-off, and passive.

You know when a class or build needs to be toned down, when, the majority of roamers/small groups run the same things over and over.

Your personal experience is not my own. I went through the exercise of tallying the number of roamer condition builds versus power that I encountered over a given time period. The plan was to do this on ten seperate nights.

I went three and stopped as it was patently obvious the bulk of roamers I encountered were still power. Using your reasoning this means power builds OP not so?

To Drd evade builds specifically I rarely see more then one a week. The vast majority of thieves are power specs (d/p and or staff with a lot of p/p of late)

Now given you are T1 and I am not part of the reason you might see more such builds as a roamer is likely due to encountering more enemy at any given time and needing more in the way of survival, which means this has little to do with it being an OP spec but a spec designed to deal with damage output of multiple players.

I spend almost all my timing roaming. Out of some 20+ toons ~ 80 percent are still power. Some are built specifically to deal with and derail condition builds. Some have little in the way of removal. As far as I am concerned, there is no Condition meta.

I have a sum total of 5 condition builds.

One is in TB.
One is in Carrion (actually a hybrid)
One is in Viper
One is in Settlers
One is in dire. (i I rarely play this one and DIRE will be phased out)

The Carrion build was recently switched from a build that used Shamans/Apothecary. Less survival but pumps out way more damage which shows that “only one stat needed” in a condition build not supported by the reality. (Albeit the word NEED means something different then optimal or desired)

The one in Settler gets the most rage QQ. Now if DIRE was OP why would not all of them be in Dire? The fact is on a number of builds a DPS loss occurs when one uses Dire, much like that DPS loss that happens for power builds in Soldiers.

yeah as someone who finds condi the most braindead afki gameplay ever im finding the current wvw the least fun i have ever found it, and wvw has been my main gameplay since beta, i mainly roam.

Tongku.5326:

Thank god. So many years of zerker or GTFO is finally over, and hopefully for good.

If you where zerker in wvw most ppl would asked you to GTFO of wvw back in the day. You are mixing up pve things with wvw even in the WVW part of the forums.

I do not see why pvp must be so hounded by pve balancing.

In my honest opinion, what makes condi more annoying is that most skills comes with effects that affect movement like chill, cripple, immobilize, and weakness to some extent (reduces endurance regeneration for dodging). Sure, these effects can be used in both power or condi builds as long as that skill is tied to the weapon or utility skill but condi builds have a default food which is anything that increases condi duration.

In general, I believe that what makes most people hate condi is that because nobody wants to die a slow, painful death. Watching your HP tick chunks while all your cleanses are on cooldown due to cleanse cooldown mismanagement or the sheer fact that condi application rate is far greater than cleanse rate is one of the worst feelings you can get which can be compared to the old full zerk 1 combo builds of the past.

I’ve been in both sides of the power and condi meta and it’s easy to say that condi build allows you to play more defensively than power builds. In the end, I prefer if ANET is able to find a middle ground and tone down everything (power damage, condition damage, and survivability) but hey, balance is a myth.

Condi just has too many gimmicks atm. Conditions on me remain on me when I get downed and enter downed state half the time…..and they arent aoe. Its so easy to place condi on downs and watch their hp get shredded while u can devote all ur time into defense or attacking the next guy. Plus it prevents the enemy from healing themselves automatically….just from 1 attack. With power they can start healing themselves anytime u arent directly casting attacks.

Power builds u pretty much have to stomp or leave the downed guy…..god forbid you run a melee build lol (although pretty much all melee builds have ranged attacks now). Just that lack of options and difficulty finishing makes power a really weak option atm.

I saw a necro cast a well at the top of the stairs and saw 4 guys in my squad get their faces melted off……An aoe that can do THAT much to 4 guys in a single cast……and even when they r downed they continue to melt and I can’t heal them or I get caught in it and the boon strips. So much versatility in condi builds, thats why they so strong imo. MOst of the condi classes that are used also have boon strips…….so resistance can only bring u so far in a fight….and forget condi clearing with classes that deal 5 condis per attack lol, condi clear only useful in group situations and even then you’ll want resistance insteaad.

Balance needs to be implemented into WvW in order to make the new rewards worthwhile. Failure to do so will see WvW right back to where it was before the most recent patch.

However, I don’t think that it will happen. I think that one of ArenaNet’s goals for this patch was to permanently kill off small group and roaming play. These are the types of play that the lack of balance in WvW hurt the most which makes those who enjoy these types of play the most vocal and critical of profession balance issues.

With everyone blobbing (or most everyone) ArenaNet can avoid doing costly and time consuming fixes like splitting balance and instead balance for zerg play (big battles) which is much easier to tweak.

Main issues are, staff unblockable, chill-bleeds, condi thief in general.
Make toughness negate condi damage= all problems solved.

babazhook.6805:

Odokuro.5049:

I’m in T1

When roaming, you can’t seem to find anything besides Condi Mesmer/Chrono, Vault Spam DD, or D/D Condi-Evade DD.

I’m here trying to not cave and give into the cheese that is condi-builds, but crap, when all they have to do is whiff me with attacks to get several or more stacks of several or more conditions, is bewildering.

I remember when running a condi-build was all about having skillful play to maintain stacks, and ticks. But now with all the +condition duration foods/buffs/sigils/runes/specs/armors/weapons, ect. condition builds are so hands-off, and passive.

You know when a class or build needs to be toned down, when, the majority of roamers/small groups run the same things over and over.

Your personal experience is not my own. I went through the exercise of tallying the number of roamer condition builds versus power that I encountered over a given time period. The plan was to do this on ten seperate nights.

I went three and stopped as it was patently obvious the bulk of roamers I encountered were still power. Using your reasoning this means power builds OP not so?

To Drd evade builds specifically I rarely see more then one a week. The vast majority of thieves are power specs (d/p and or staff with a lot of p/p of late)

Now given you are T1 and I am not part of the reason you might see more such builds as a roamer is likely due to encountering more enemy at any given time and needing more in the way of survival, which means this has little to do with it being an OP spec but a spec designed to deal with damage output of multiple players.

I spend almost all my timing roaming. Out of some 20+ toons ~ 80 percent are still power. Some are built specifically to deal with and derail condition builds. Some have little in the way of removal. As far as I am concerned, there is no Condition meta.

this guy is obviiously a condi user as this is complete kitten. play wvw everyday. this is NEVER the case.

Of course Babaz plays condition builds. He said so in his post. You might want to try making actual arguments rather than attacking him personally because he plays some condition builds out of his many characters.

There are tons of power builds out there and many times I run into them in WvW. There are also condition builds but I can’t say there are more of them than power builds.

What classes do you fight in WvW most? Which of those classes are using condition builds? Which are impossible for you to fight?

Ahnlok.3897:

Condi spam meta not over yet?

Why would it be over? Condition damage hasn’t been balanced yet and people can still be as tank if not more than a power player running Soldiers stats, and still deal as much damage if not more than full zerk. I don’t know about you, but I’m going to keep taking advantage of the strongest thing in the game until ANET does something about it as they should have over a year ago.

Expect more aoe condi with next expantion or skills that aplly a full stack.

Condis are here to stay since it makes the game more easier for those who play it with the aoe spam stacking, GW2 was ment even for a chipmunk look like a pro gammer.

Dont forget warriors. After the GS nerf and the nerf to Eternal Champion stability. I’ve gone full cancer on my war. I still play power war every couple days because i love it but the difference between condi and power war just got wider.

hell im even seeing Burn Guards

Many people fail to realize power builds can also be really good at spamming conditions.

For example, power necro is just as good at corrupting boons as condition necro.

I don’t see condition damage as a problem at all. Condition damage is never(even now) as strong as power damage. Power damage is done as long as you land the hit. Condition damage takes time to do the job and players get their second chance to cleanse it even if they are hit.

Even when power was dominating WvW, players are still expected to build to counter conditions. Because conditions like chill, immob are more dangerous than damaging conditions.

James Rustler.7860:

Anet loves condis for some reason. Every “balance” patch lately is effectively “buffed condi, nerfed power”. I don’t think they actually playtest this stuff at all, and certainly not in WvW—if they had, they’d have seen how little fun this “meta” is.

It’s out of control even in PvE. Just tried it out, and I can out-DPS my power-based main, which I’ve been playing for two years, with several condi classes/builds despite never having used them before and not even knowing their rotations—by 30-40%. WTF, Anet.

They clearly don’t. How else would that Epidemic team killing bug get in the final build? It was found within 5 minutes by players.

Exciton hits on something. In many group fights I focus more on immobilize than damaging conditions.

Who cares if I do 5k damage when I can help three other people land 20k damage they otherwise wouldn’t?

Exciton.8942:

Condition damage takes time to do the job and players get their second chance to cleanse it even if they are hit.

May i welcome you to 2017 (actually anytime post HOT) where condi burst is a thing and Damage over Time is pure nostalgia.

Trepidation Lost.3469:

babazhook.6805:

Odokuro.5049:

I’m in T1

When roaming, you can’t seem to find anything besides Condi Mesmer/Chrono, Vault Spam DD, or D/D Condi-Evade DD.

I’m here trying to not cave and give into the cheese that is condi-builds, but crap, when all they have to do is whiff me with attacks to get several or more stacks of several or more conditions, is bewildering.

I remember when running a condi-build was all about having skillful play to maintain stacks, and ticks. But now with all the +condition duration foods/buffs/sigils/runes/specs/armors/weapons, ect. condition builds are so hands-off, and passive.

You know when a class or build needs to be toned down, when, the majority of roamers/small groups run the same things over and over.

Your personal experience is not my own. I went through the exercise of tallying the number of roamer condition builds versus power that I encountered over a given time period. The plan was to do this on ten seperate nights.

I went three and stopped as it was patently obvious the bulk of roamers I encountered were still power. Using your reasoning this means power builds OP not so?

To Drd evade builds specifically I rarely see more then one a week. The vast majority of thieves are power specs (d/p and or staff with a lot of p/p of late)

Now given you are T1 and I am not part of the reason you might see more such builds as a roamer is likely due to encountering more enemy at any given time and needing more in the way of survival, which means this has little to do with it being an OP spec but a spec designed to deal with damage output of multiple players.

I spend almost all my timing roaming. Out of some 20+ toons ~ 80 percent are still power. Some are built specifically to deal with and derail condition builds. Some have little in the way of removal. As far as I am concerned, there is no Condition meta.

this guy is obviiously a condi user as this is complete kitten. play wvw everyday. this is NEVER the case.

You have anger management issues. The majority of my builds are in fact power builds. Unlike some I play all builds before I start making claims about how OP a given build is.

You also do not understand that using Hyperbole does not an argument make. ALL roaming builds are not condition builds. When I roam on one of my thieves it is generally a power build albeit of late I have been using a hybrid. NEVER the case means exactly that .I can prove you wrong simply by logging into the game and roaming for a few minutes.

If you are going to make an argument do not just make things up.

babazhook.6805:

saerni.2584:

Actually they removed Soliders and Dire from sPvP to reduce bunker meta and promote a faster rate of kills (though HoT brought some bunker back).

The reason to take Dire as a WvW roamer has far more to do with needing to survive 1v3 or 1v4 long enough to retreat. Sure, I’d spec for more damage but I find in many situations survivability is more important (harder to kill people but I’m not running a one-shot build—if I one shot you that’s on you).

Correct. This claim made all the time, that being “they had to remove DIRE from PVp because it OP” . It nothing of the sort or both Soldiers and Celestial (and a number of other combinations) would be called OP. They removed them because the matches in a five player format dragged on too long with the bunker builds and given there no food or utility boosts and the amount of raw damage that can be put out limited certain armor types would just make fights go on forever.

In WvW not only is there foods and other consumables , but there significant population differences wherein one side can have a significant advantage at any given time and pump out all the damage needed to take down anyone. Added to that the matches last a week. There no rationale to “speeding up” a given fight as there is in PvP.

I should have specified, it was deemed too overpowered even during the existence of the bunker-dominant meta we had.

Its lack of release had nothing to do with defensive pacing issues but the damage : defense ratio being way off. If it had to do with defenses then they’d have removed soldier’s gear sooner, which they didn’t.

The removal of durable stats from sPvP has nothing to do with dire gear’s status as being too overpowered for competitive play considering it came so much later and the same (and superior) defenses existed and were not an issue prior.

It’s fair to say ANet would have removed these sets if they existed in sPvP when they removed the others, but arguing otherwise is just really smearing the truth.

Exciton.8942:

Many people fail to realize power builds can also be really good at spamming conditions.

For example, power necro is just as good at corrupting boons as condition necro.

I don’t see condition damage as a problem at all. Condition damage is never(even now) as strong as power damage. Power damage is done as long as you land the hit. Condition damage takes time to do the job and players get their second chance to cleanse it even if they are hit.

Even when power was dominating WvW, players are still expected to build to counter conditions. Because conditions like chill, immob are more dangerous than damaging conditions.

Precisely. In WvW an Immob against a foe can be huge . On my s/p build I get a 1.5 second Immob off Infiltrators strike. That skill alone has helped kill dozens of players as I can do the long port, get that 1.5 immob against someone fleeing battle and the rest of the team can catch up and wail away. It so effective in the power build, I am considering ways of getting the duration to two seconds. I can sacrifice damage output to do so for the very reasons you stated. I can do enough damage via power and in a team fight it not all up to me to do that damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

saerni.2584:

Actually they removed Soliders and Dire from sPvP to reduce bunker meta and promote a faster rate of kills (though HoT brought some bunker back).

The reason to take Dire as a WvW roamer has far more to do with needing to survive 1v3 or 1v4 long enough to retreat. Sure, I’d spec for more damage but I find in many situations survivability is more important (harder to kill people but I’m not running a one-shot build—if I one shot you that’s on you).

Correct. This claim made all the time, that being “they had to remove DIRE from PVp because it OP” . It nothing of the sort or both Soldiers and Celestial (and a number of other combinations) would be called OP. They removed them because the matches in a five player format dragged on too long with the bunker builds and given there no food or utility boosts and the amount of raw damage that can be put out limited certain armor types would just make fights go on forever.

In WvW not only is there foods and other consumables , but there significant population differences wherein one side can have a significant advantage at any given time and pump out all the damage needed to take down anyone. Added to that the matches last a week. There no rationale to “speeding up” a given fight as there is in PvP.

I should have specified, it was deemed too overpowered even during the existence of the bunker-dominant meta we had.

Its lack of release had nothing to do with defensive pacing issues but the damage : defense ratio being way off. If it had to do with defenses then they’d have removed soldier’s gear sooner, which they didn’t.

The removal of durable stats from sPvP has nothing to do with dire gear’s status as being too overpowered for competitive play considering it came so much later and the same (and superior) defenses existed and were not an issue prior.

It’s fair to say ANet would have removed these sets if they existed in sPvP when they removed the others, but arguing otherwise is just really smearing the truth.

You contradict youself in this one post and did not refute anything of what I said. You know full well that the damage scaling of classes across the board were scaled down in PvP. This is why a power thief could never get the bursts of damage that he can in WvW. For the purposes of PvP dire did not meet this model. It is NOT because it OP. It is because PvP is an artifical construct.

This is why they used the amulet system. They wanted to try and nromalzie builds as much as possible.

If you are going to create a system that says " we want to keep damage output and the ability to mitigate the same withing this range" then you can not single out specific sets while leaving others. I suggest to you had there been the same level of damage output one can get as in WvW in PvP from power builds Dire would have been allowed THEN as well ands no one would have been crying that it was OP.

Dire existed in WvW since I first logged in to that format. There were very few that used it . Why would that be the case if it was OP? The fact is it was totally outclassed by power builds which could always pump out more then enough damage to bring a dire user down in short order.

The change that occurred that has all of these people whining about dire was not Dire being “reintroduced” or “made more powerful” . It was always there. The change that happened was condition damage output was improved. Power damage output was also improved which is why there now so many tanky power builds. That condition damage may have made greater gains overall merely reflects how far behind it was in the first place.

Spartacus.3192:

Exciton.8942:

Condition damage takes time to do the job and players get their second chance to cleanse it even if they are hit.

May i welcome you to 2017 (actually anytime post HOT) where condi burst is a thing and Damage over Time is pure nostalgia.

Agreed. People keep using the excuse that condi has “ramp up time” but it really doesn’t, not anymore.

Vyrulisse.1246:

Spartacus.3192:

Exciton.8942:

Condition damage takes time to do the job and players get their second chance to cleanse it even if they are hit.

May i welcome you to 2017 (actually anytime post HOT) where condi burst is a thing and Damage over Time is pure nostalgia.

Agreed. People keep using the excuse that condi has “ramp up time” but it really doesn’t, not anymore.

Saerni describes why that is.

As more cleanses added the Condition user has to rely more and more on bursting conditions so as to squeeze out as much damage as is possible between cleanses.

This has nothing to do with Dire armor as one vocal group keeps insisting , or for that matter the lack of condition cleanses. If Condition cleanses remained as is and Condition application dialed back to a slower ramp up, condition builds would have minimal if any success.

Roamed solo for a while in T1 on my power shatter mesmer, had a couple fights against non condi builds, most notably a power Rev and power Scrapper(yay).

Apart from this the only non condi builds i encountered were DD’s because of how imba they are in a wvw setting. Condi DD’s, condi chronos, some condi zerkers, and a condi rev were most of my engagements. Everyone is rocking around with 3k+ armour, 20k health and condi duration so those condis are not falling off any time soon without clears.

So just been playing PvP as my couple hours of roaming has cured me of any desire to fight total cancer builds. It’s not the players fault, people are just going to load up with the most efficient build with low risk high reward because it’s a no brainer.

If anet have to group WvW class balance in with another game mode it needs to be PvP and not PvE. Ultimately all three modes are vastly different so they should have their own balance. But we know that isnt going to happen.

Chorazin.4107:

Roamed solo for a while in T1 on my power shatter mesmer, had a couple fights against non condi builds, most notably a power Rev and power Scrapper(yay).

Apart from this the only non condi builds i encountered were DD’s because of how imba they are in a wvw setting. Condi DD’s, condi chronos, some condi zerkers, and a condi rev were most of my engagements. Everyone is rocking around with 3k+ armour, 20k health and condi duration so those condis are not falling off any time soon without clears.

So just been playing PvP as my couple hours of roaming has cured me of any desire to fight total cancer builds. It’s not the players fault, people are just going to load up with the most efficient build with low risk high reward because it’s a no brainer.

If anet have to group WvW class balance in with another game mode it needs to be PvP and not PvE. Ultimately all three modes are vastly different so they should have their own balance. But we know that isnt going to happen.

Again I suggest you will likely see more Condi on T1 simply because there more people roaming and you are likely to encounter larger groups. I tend to roam later at night in a lower tier server. on my power builds I know I can deal with most any single build I come up against, condition builds included. (deal with does not mean win. If I get outplayed I get outplayed. It does not mean the build I met OP) When I roam at a busier time The likelihood of encountering a group roaming goes up and that low armor and health will not last you long.

I was on just now with my new hybrid s/p thief. Roamed for two hours and ran into 1 condi build mesmer.The rest were all power including two necroes , this excluding the zergs which I avoided joining or battling save for one tower flip.

My armor is 2118. health 19k. Wears carrion. 0 Condition duration base outside what I get from Potent poison and a sigil for poison.

Condition builds are hilariously overpowered in WvW. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to defend the condi build they are using. Condition builds allow you to stack 3k armor, 20k + hp while still doing GREAT damage. It’s just insane. No cleansing in the game will be able to deal with it. /Sadfacepowermesmer

Condi is a mess nowdays. Such a mess that i lost the fun to play this game. Since months we told that it is unfun and OP in WvWvW but anet decide to buff them even more. I really do not understand anything more about this company.

lol forget 3k armor and 20k hp, try 3.5k armor and almost 30k hp on my condi zerker. In Dire/Trailblazer gear.

Anet’s nerf of GS arc divider and Eternal Champion stability pushed me to experiment with condi war and its so strong its not even funny. Actually it is funny but you know what i mean.

Come all stop your complaining….

If you complain her and in the game means you have not learned how to fight condi builds.

I have 18 characters and 4 of them are condi builds, 6 of them are power builds, 2 of them are hybrid power/condi builds and the rest of them are supportive builds.

But does not mean condi builds cannot be defeated. Condi builds can be defeated just as quickly as everyone else. You just have to be smart and cleaver to defeat them.

The rule is do not follow the “Meta” build Junk out there. Take some time to really figure things out with traits and gear.

I used meta builds for a while then I was realizing it was not working fully. So I spent a ton time for each character I have be even better than the meta builds.

Example 1: My power thief still able to survive and able to get a ton of damage output. I have 3.6k in power, 100% crit chance, 224% critical damage in fights and not sacrificing other stats to help survive.

Exmaple 2: My main reaper tons of constant condition output and I have 2.5k condition damage output during fights at the same time able to survive longer in fights.

Plus I always find improvements to things to make my characters even stronger and better.

I do not complain at all if I die and just get backup keep on going and learn from my mistakes.

Pratice makes perfect.

It is only a game and just have fun.

I look at this game to challenge my mind by finding better ways to do skills, gear and traits as well as a better play style.

conditions in this game are a low skill floor/ceiling game play

I’ve encountered many condition builds in WvW & if you can convince them to switch to power the amount of fail you witness is worth it’s weight in gold.

The problem with conditions are real in WvW due to the way stat combos can be made with gear. Anet has given up on balancing WvW & are only balancing based of PvE & PvP.

Sad

The old zerg fight were boring. I like conditions because it’s a game changer. In the old mode the zergs just stay out of AoE, and can stay in that half an hour, an entire hour looking at each other without do nothing, just “positioning”.