Guild Wars 2

http://www.strawpoll.me/13512734/r

Quick vote before they delete it!!!!!!!!!

the dmg it self isnt that op as people make out to be, its some builds and how they are applied is what I find a bit annoying, especially chill reaper.

14 conditions,

One class in particular can potentially cause over 10 of them in a matter of seconds to 5 foes within 600 radius.

It’s not the dot conditions that are the problem, it’s all the “trash” conditions that bog players down from cleansing the damage “over time” conditions.

Pray you have instant cast cleansing 2-3 deep. Once a dot is on you it doesn’t care if you dodge/block/invulnerable. Purge or die while avoiding more incoming cc and dot.

The real problem here is the survivability.

In general, I think players have come to expect that a build should be either tanky or damaging but never both.

If I come up against a glass cannon power build I know they’ll output insane damage but they’re also kind of fragile – so I respect the risk:reward payoff.

Most forum complaints about overpowered classes stem from their survivability combined with their damage (thief damage with perma evades, condi trailblazer everything, rev hammer from range).

High damage plus high survivability = forum complaints.

So it’s not the damage that is the problem here, it is the combination of damage AND survivability.

High condi damage should have low armour, evading thieves should either have less evades or less damage, zerk hammer Revs should have their range reduced or their hammer damage values inverted (closest hit does most damage).

It’s all about finding that balance between survivability and damage.

Condi is a problem because armour like Trailblazer and Dire allow you to combine damage AND survivability. That doesn’t mean condis are broken though, it’s the stat combos that are broken. It’s the evades that are broken (thief). It’s the range that is broken (rev hammer).

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

The real problem here is the survivability.

In general, I think players have come to expect that a build should be either tanky or damaging but never both.

If I come up against a glass cannon power build I know they’ll output insane damage but they’re also kind of fragile – so I respect the risk:reward payoff.

Most forum complaints about overpowered classes stem from their survivability combined with their damage (thief damage with perma evades, condi trailblazer everything, rev hammer from range).

High damage plus high survivability = forum complaints.

So it’s not the damage that is the problem here, it is the combination of damage AND survivability.

High condi damage should have low armour, evading thieves should either have less evades or less damage, zerk hammer Revs should have their range reduced or their hammer damage values inverted (closest hit does most damage).

It’s all about finding that balance between survivability and damage.

Condi is a problem because armour like Trailblazer and Dire allow you to combine damage AND survivability. That doesn’t mean condis are broken though, it’s the stat combos that are broken. It’s the evades that are broken (thief). It’s the range that is broken (rev hammer).

^ SO MUCH THIS.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

The real problem here is the survivability.

In general, I think players have come to expect that a build should be either tanky or damaging but never both.

If I come up against a glass cannon power build I know they’ll output insane damage but they’re also kind of fragile – so I respect the risk:reward payoff.

Most forum complaints about overpowered classes stem from their survivability combined with their damage (thief damage with perma evades, condi trailblazer everything, rev hammer from range).

High damage plus high survivability = forum complaints.

So it’s not the damage that is the problem here, it is the combination of damage AND survivability.

High condi damage should have low armour, evading thieves should either have less evades or less damage, zerk hammer Revs should have their range reduced or their hammer damage values inverted (closest hit does most damage).

It’s all about finding that balance between survivability and damage.

Condi is a problem because armour like Trailblazer and Dire allow you to combine damage AND survivability. That doesn’t mean condis are broken though, it’s the stat combos that are broken. It’s the evades that are broken (thief). It’s the range that is broken (rev hammer).

Yet the condition damage output by those wearing Dire and TB is compromised by a build facing them that has high condition cleanse and or reisistance access.. High condition cleanse need not mean one gives up all damage output. High condition cleanses allows both damage output and survivability. The simple fact remains I can bring in a power thief with minimal condition cleanse and a power thief with higher condition cleanse against the same DIRE user and have much greater success on the latter this even as that latter build outputs less damage then the low cleanse build.

Added to that and a point you entirely ignore is that condition builds do not benefit to any great extent when wearing Dire and TB when facing another condition build. Carrion as example will output the same Condition damage, supplemented by power damage and have the same vitality. The added toughness provided by Dire and TB does not help a lot against this. While it will mitigate some of the added damage output of Carrion with its generally higher power , over the length of a fight Carriorn will put out more damage against a Dire condition build. Hybrid builds are a thing and are becoming a thing and can counter dire/tb to a great degree while those same hybrid builds will have a harder time against power.

Of the classes I am most familiar with , Thief, warrior and necromancer can all build viable hybrids and specifically if they can garner some might stacking source. If one of these builds encounters a pure dire user , if they bring a decent amount of cleanse to the table , it hard to see how the Dire/Tb user has an advantage.

Lastly, the suggestion that you can not have a build that is both tanky and does high power damage is not accurate.

babazhook.6805:

Yet the condition damage output by those wearing Dire and TB is compromised by a build facing them that has high condition cleanse. High condition cleanse need not mean one gives up all damage output….

I stopped reading there. There is no amount of condition cleanse which can keep up with the actual conditions spamming from some builds.

Heck the other day i was fighting a warrior which could apply even confusion.

The only thing that work now is permanent resistance uptime and that boon is very limited to some very broken builds. So right now condi spamming is a problem.

The rest of the players can just hate the actual balance this game has with instant oneshot kill builds, permanent evasion and stealth builds, condi spamming builds, permanent stun build.

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

Yet the condition damage output by those wearing Dire and TB is compromised by a build facing them that has high condition cleanse. High condition cleanse need not mean one gives up all damage output….

I stopped reading there. There is no amount of condition cleanse which can keep up with the actual conditions spamming from some builds.

Heck the other day i was fighting a warrior which could apply even confusion.

The only thing that work now is permanent resistance uptime and that boon is very limited to some very broken builds. So right now condi spamming is a problem.

The rest of the players can just hate the actual balance this game has with instant oneshot kill builds, permanent evasion and stealth builds, condi spamming builds, permanent stun build.

You do not have to nor should you expect to cleanse all of the conditions coming your way. If you could do this, a Condition build would be useless.

If i could heal all the power damage coming my way, i would never die.

What you need to do against condition is avoid a percentage of condition applications just as you would Power attacks via dodges, blocks , invulns and the like , and clean a percentage of the applied conditions. You should never expect not to suffer health loss. What you should expect is to minimize this loss between your heals and win the fight by overwhelming the enemy with your own attacks. (Which power CAN do). If you end a given fight with 1000 health and the enemy downed you won.

A warrior applying confusion does so on an interrupt with the trait distracting stikes. if you minimize the number of times you are interrupted in the first place you can avoid those confusion stacks meaning less need for a cleanse.

Here is where I find a disconnect with the crowd that continually rails against condition builds. For warrior as example, one of the big sources of Stun or interrupt is the elite skill headbutt. If I receive a headbutt from a warrior that is pure power, I am going to be stunned for 3 seconds and take some 10k in damage just from that headbutt.

If I receive a headbutt from a condition based warrior traiting distracting, that 10k damage will drop dramatically and instead I will get 4 confusion stacks. Not only is the damage on the fomer greater and not subject to mitigation via a cleanse or just running around as the damage already applied, but the headbutt on a condition warrrior is no more difficult to avoid then the headbutt from a power warrior.

There a whole pile of on interrupt skills that apply raw power damage. if you can avoid those, you can avoid the types that apply a condition on an interrupt.

This not to suggest that there not outlier skills/traits on condition builds that may be just a little too much (just as there is on power builds). It to point out this not a problem with condition builds in general or with the TB and Dire gear survivability.

anduriell.6280:

I stopped reading there. There is no amount of condition cleanse which can keep up with the actual conditions spamming from some builds.

To me, this seems to be more the central issue than condis as themselves. I saw an interesting theory that the spamming was the result of high cleansing possibilities. A fewer yet more significant cleanse would be better I think.

anduriell.6280:

Heck the other day i was fighting a warrior which could apply even confusion.

They can on interrupt, or with a perplexity rune. Condi berserker is one of the worse build I ever saw.

anduriell.6280:

The only thing that work now is permanent resistance uptime and that boon is very limited to some very broken builds. So right now condi spamming is a problem.

If you take back things from a theoretical point of view (the spamming issue put aside). Conditions are supposed to deal their total damage over time. As resistance and cleanses exist, placing a condition somehow is a bet, because the total damage output may not be dealt. So, what can a condi user do in the meanwhile ? What should a condi user do while resistance is up, or while cleanses aren’t on CD. Answer is : survive. That’s why condi builds should have high survivability (stats, evades, decoys, stealth…).

Now, I agree, spamming and bursts are also an issue, and it’s the biggest issue to me. Not that survivability dolyakdung.

anduriell.6280:

The rest of the players can just hate the actual balance this game has with instant oneshot kill builds, permanent evasion and stealth builds, condi spamming builds, permanent stun build.

That’s pretty much sums up the small scale scene

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

Yet the condition damage output by those wearing Dire and TB is compromised by a build facing them that has high condition cleanse. High condition cleanse need not mean one gives up all damage output….

I stopped reading there. There is no amount of condition cleanse which can keep up with the actual conditions spamming from some builds.

Heck the other day i was fighting a warrior which could apply even confusion.

The only thing that work now is permanent resistance uptime and that boon is very limited to some very broken builds. So right now condi spamming is a problem.

The rest of the players can just hate the actual balance this game has with instant oneshot kill builds, permanent evasion and stealth builds, condi spamming builds, permanent stun build.

You do not have to nor should you expect to cleanse all of the conditions coming your way. If you could do this, a Condition build would be useless.

If i could heal all the power damage coming my way, i would never die.

What you need to do against condition is avoid a percentage of condition applications just as you would Power attacks via dodges, blocks , invulns and the like , and clean a percentage of the applied conditions. You should never expect not to suffer health loss. What you should expect is to minimize this loss between your heals and win the fight by overwhelming the enemy with your own attacks. (Which power CAN do). If you end a given fight with 1000 health and the enemy downed you won.

A warrior applying confusion does so on an interrupt with the trait distracting stikes. if you minimize the number of times you are interrupted in the first place you can avoid those confusion stacks meaning less need for a cleanse.

Here is where I find a disconnect with the crowd that continually rails against condition builds. For warrior as example, one of the big sources of Stun or interrupt is the elite skill headbutt. If I receive a headbutt from a warrior that is pure power, I am going to be stunned for 3 seconds and take some 10k in damage just from that headbutt.

If I receive a headbutt from a condition based warrior traiting distracting, that 10k damage will drop dramatically and instead I will get 4 confusion stacks. Not only is the damage on the fomer greater and not subject to mitigation via a cleanse or just running around as the damage already applied, but the headbutt on a condition warrrior is no more difficult to avoid then the headbutt from a power warrior.

There a whole pile of on interrupt skills that apply raw power damage. if you can avoid those, you can avoid the types that apply a condition on an interrupt.

This not to suggest that there not outlier skills/traits on condition builds that may be just a little too much (just as there is on power builds). It to point out this not a problem with condition builds in general or with the TB and Dire gear survivability.

How? I watched and ele vs a chill mancers (bad mu) the ele got gondi bombed and was taking something that looked like 17-20% health per tick so he cleansed it or nearly all of it, only for the chill mancers to put on the same condis dmg ed ticks a few seconds later.

You can avoid power based dmg in a lot of ways but condi application dosnt seem to work the same way and just land anyway.

babazhook.6805:

You do not have to nor should you expect to cleanse all of the conditions coming your way. If you could do this, a Condition build would be useless.

Except that healing bunkers can survive 1v1 against power almost infinitely, thanks to CC and heals. But for some reason, we cannot have same toolkit against condi, because “a Condition build would be useless”, huh?

ok I enjoyed reading this with my coffee this morning. Some very good points from each side of the coin.

When I play meta bunker ele, the most rage moment comes from a reaper that condi bombs you, you have a couple instant cleanses available, but then he will fear you after a 2nd application of condis that also boon strip. Then you get chilled on top of wells with twirly staff reaper fairy stuff (i just describe what i see ok).

To break that down with what was suggested above is you usually want to avoid being near a necro in melee range (as most classes), especially when they are in repear.

I’ll add this to the top: You only fight a condi necro to save your teammates (as an ele).
That being said, this is what happens most of the time: You already have a lot of long duration buffs on you from minstrels, or will have them as soon as you cleanse the first time. These then turn into massive stacks of vuln with damaging conditions. If you don’t have earth cds available you die. [P.S. meta bunker ele only has stab on earth overload, so in wvw you are probably going to have to use armor of earth to guarantee you can heal. If you swap the heal + vigor on aura for stab on all attunements (the thing every staff ele requires you to do if you want to live without a babysitter rev+guardian) you basically remove the viability of your spec as support/tank.] So ok, armor of earth is there so you have a guaranteed, uninterruptible heal. Except for the fact you need to run away from the necro (who is easily faster than you, even when you give yourself swiftness) while cleansing. Usually I’ll go in and use an instant aoe cleanse “feel the burn” with trooper/soldier runes (whatever it is outside of pvp). This will remove 1 condition on everyone and put up a fire aura on them, that will apply vigor and regen (to me! because i don’t use aura share in place of remove a condition on regen tick in wvw, because that does not work at all. It worked at maybe the start of HoT, but now you need all the regen on yourself or you’re always dead). The aura will put regen on people though with elemental bastion. To reinforce what i just mentioned, cleansing water is the closest thing to resistance an ele can have. It is just too good. Perhaps it is best used with staff, but when you’re pug roaming you have to look out for #1 or the enemy will take a #2 on you (bahahahah).

This is getting long-winded so I’ll just post the closest thing to what you need to play tanky ele nowadays: WvW Godmode

Saunter in (because ur slow and casual), feel the burn (feel the tickle), swirling winds (air), shocking aura (cause aura procs). If team is moving away>fire attune, fire aura, burning speed away. Otherwise you pretty much have to armor of earth + wash the pain away to save them. This puts you at instant risk of boon strip/corrupt, fear, chill, twirlytard combo, so you need earth 4+5 if that happens. Then overload earth on top of the necro to cripple them. You have one escape left at that point >lightning flash> gl not being immob’d. In this scenario you are trying to rescue teammates who are not going to be able to help you because they’re dying from their own inability to play the game. (Yeah, I said it.) Go in, cleanse, heal, interrupt before everyone (or just you) gets interrupted to death. You then go into water for all the good stuff to keep everyone up, try to comet the necro.

I feel like I need to make a descriptive video for all of this, because it’s a wall of text otherwise. And every situation is different. Necro is biggest aoe threat to small groups, especially in tight spaces like the housey area south of overlook in EBG. Every necro is always going ham with their abilities, just like I am with my ele. I’ll probably delete this post. I’m sick of typing now. bye

Rednik.3809:

babazhook.6805:

You do not have to nor should you expect to cleanse all of the conditions coming your way. If you could do this, a Condition build would be useless.

Except that healing bunkers can survive 1v1 against power almost infinitely, thanks to CC and heals. But for some reason, we cannot have same toolkit against condi, because “a Condition build would be useless”, huh?

You already have the same “toolkit” against condi. The problem is that some certain classes cough trailblazer reapers coughhack just go so far and beyond “normal” condi damage and application its absolutely rediculous.

I read this from a WvW standpoint (because this is in the WvW forum) so I see this as a decent sized group fight. Not small group or 1v1. In 1v1 or small group I can see how conditions could be a problem unless you the player or the group you’re in are specifically tuned to deal and counter with them.

Big group fights however are a different story; the amount of resistant up time against conditions is way over the top. Like way way over the top. All I see is “immune” “immune” “immune”, more “immune” and then more “immune” on top of that. Throughout the fights, all immune, to the point it’s best to switch over to a power based weapon just to do some damage.

So the question is, if immunity to physical damage cannot be granted to this extent, why exactly can condition damage be rendered useless an entire fight if built around properly?

Things have to be put into context here, remember the forum we’re in. Though we can run around and 1v1 and small group fight in WvW it’s not what it’s built for. I can also run around and node farm in WvW, that doesn’t mean it was made for that. Think larger scale battles, and in larger scale battles, condition damage can be rendered completely useless throughout entire fights, that should never happen.

DeadlySynz.3471:

I read this from a WvW standpoint (because this is in the WvW forum) so I see this as a decent sized group fight. Not small group or 1v1. In 1v1 or small group I can see how conditions could be a problem unless you the player or the group you’re in are specifically tuned to deal and counter with them.

Big group fights however are a different story; the amount of resistant up time against conditions is way over the top. Like way way over the top. All I see is “immune” “immune” “immune”, more “immune” and then more “immune” on top of that. Throughout the fights, all immune, to the point it’s best to switch over to a power based weapon just to do some damage.

So the question is, if immunity to physical damage cannot be granted to this extent, why exactly can condition damage be rendered useless an entire fight if built around properly?

Things have to be put into context here, remember the forum we’re in. Though we can run around and 1v1 and small group fight in WvW it’s not what it’s built for. I can also run around and node farm in WvW, that doesn’t mean it was made for that. Think larger scale battles, and in larger scale battles, condition damage can be rendered completely useless throughout entire fights, that should never happen.

You do realize don’t you that resistance was added to the ridiculous amount of condition spam in the game and let’s not forget that resistance can be stripped while invulnerability can’t

Rednik.3809:

babazhook.6805:

You do not have to nor should you expect to cleanse all of the conditions coming your way. If you could do this, a Condition build would be useless.

Except that healing bunkers can survive 1v1 against power almost infinitely, thanks to CC and heals. But for some reason, we cannot have same toolkit against condi, because “a Condition build would be useless”, huh?

You can build to fight against conditions the same way. First as another mentioned this WvW where the effectiveness of conditions peters away against groups that have high resistance and cleanses. In a group fight that is after all their role. Secondly there a number of builds that can make themselves highly impervious to conditions . These exist on the Ele, the Necromancer, the Warrior and yes even the thief from the classes I more familiar with. Others can speak to those other classes.

Simple fact, I have brought in a condition build and met Necroes as example that just shrug the same off (minion master as example using necormantic corrutption and transfers) at such a rate i had to pull off as I was doing no damage.

Yes those can be countered to an extent such as stealing or stripping the resistance boon off a warrior but for those bunker heal builds you can get at them the same way with a power build. Steal or corrupt their boons, ensure poison on them and whittle them away. It certainly takes longer to do this but that is why they are deemed bunkers.

anduriell.6280:

-snip-

You’re an idiot if you think you should be able to keep up with cleansing. That would be like expecting to have enough blocks/invuln/evades to avoid all physical damage. You’re going to take some hits. Choose which ones you can survive and which you can’t.

See that bright purple beam coming at you from Mesmer scepter? Might want to dodge that one. Or not attack them when they’re blocking with their scepter.

See that long cast time wind up with the frosty aura on a Necro? Should probably interrupt or dodge that or you’re going to get frozen and blasted.

Etc. etc.

Conditions aren’t magically applied. They have cast times, cooldowns and counters just like power attacks do. The issue is that people want to tank all of it and faceroll their keyboards like they do with their perma-blocking free-casting massive damage Dragonhunters or stance + high Adrenal Health uptime Berserkers.

There are a lot more power builds that are far more broken than most condition builds and are a lot easier to play. Being glassy doesn’t mean “risky” when the fight doesn’t last long enough for risk to come in to effect. Gunflame Warrior is a perfect example, it’s a gimmick but it works in most circumstances because you can 1 – 2 shot people. What are you risking if people are dead before they can retaliate? Not only that, toughness is pretty much irrelevant at this point in GW2’s life with how insanely high power damage is. My Necro has 3.3k armor and I still get slugged for 7 – 8k at times, usually by Thieves.

It only feels “unfair that they can do so much damage and be so tanky” because most people don’t take the time to understand what they should be dodging/interrupting and what they should be cleansing. Do you dodge an Eviscerate or heal it? Dodge. Do you dodge “Chilled To The Bone!” or heal it? Dodge.

Also, don’t waste your cleanses on 5 stacks of Bleed. It might hurt but more conditions will follow. Use your cleanses when you’ll get more bang for your buck, save it for removing multiple, which most cleanses do.

We could use some more conditions, and classes should have better access to apply all of them, would be good for wider options on builds.

But condi thief takes a lot of skill and is really hard to play

https://youtu.be/XPpEfaDlHvM

ZvolTx.3165:

But condi thief takes a lot of skill and is really hard to play

https://youtu.be/XPpEfaDlHvM

Almost anyone can one-shot bad thieves with 11k hp.

Sigmoid.7082:

ZvolTx.3165:

But condi thief takes a lot of skill and is really hard to play

https://youtu.be/XPpEfaDlHvM

Almost anyone can one-shot bad thieves with 11k hp.

Ding ding ding. And it took exactly 4 button presses to kill two people. All on something with relatively high defensive stats. It SHOULDN’T be that easy.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

snip

You know, I’d like to live in that magical world too, where conditions are not spammable by literally pressing any button on keyboard, ain’t covered by the tons of trash ones above them, and on top of that condi user is built as tanky as he like, because he really needs only ONE stat to do the damage, or invest into trailblazer and start hitting like a truck while still keeping all these sweet tank stats. Oh, and even more funny, you can do a lot of this damage as ranged, and even ignore projectile reflects!
Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Rednik.3809:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

snip

You know, I’d like to live in that magical world too, where conditions are not spammable by literally pressing any button on keyboard, ain’t covered by the tons of trash ones above them, and on top of that condi user is built as tanky as he like, because he really needs only ONE stat to do the damage, or invest into trailblazer and start hitting like a truck while still keeping all these sweet tank stats. Oh, and even more funny, you can do a lot of this damage as ranged, and even ignore projectile reflects!
Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Pwer builds are equally able to spam attacks .

If, as example , I am on my power warrior with AXE I can spam the AA and apply damage just as easily as I can apply a condition using my condition warrior Sword using its AA.

If I am on power damage Necro I can spam the AA and apply damage with my necro Axe just as often as I can use the AA on necro scepter to apply a condition. All other weapon skills on those two classes are on cooldowns.

If I am on my warrior using axe and a target eats the full damage not mitigating any of the attacks, he will take more damage then if a target ate every attack of the AA chain on the sword Condition warrior. Further to that once damage applied it impacts for the full amount directly and not predicated on staying on the target for a period of time so as to reach its full damage potential.

The full chain of AXE power on the AA , which is just as spammable as the full chain on a warrior condition AA will apply a lot more raw damage then will three stacks of bleeds . I have died to the full chain of a warrior using Axe power. I have never died to three stacks of bleed.

XenesisII.1540:

We could use some more conditions, and classes should have better access to apply all of them, would be good for wider options on builds.

Yea. AKA delete power.

babazhook.6805:

Rednik.3809:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

snip

You know, I’d like to live in that magical world too, where conditions are not spammable by literally pressing any button on keyboard, ain’t covered by the tons of trash ones above them, and on top of that condi user is built as tanky as he like, because he really needs only ONE stat to do the damage, or invest into trailblazer and start hitting like a truck while still keeping all these sweet tank stats. Oh, and even more funny, you can do a lot of this damage as ranged, and even ignore projectile reflects!
Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Pwer builds are equally able to spam attacks .

If, as example , I am on my power warrior with AXE I can spam the AA and apply damage just as easily as I can apply a condition using my condition warrior Sword using its AA.

If I am on power damage Necro I can spam the AA and apply damage with my necro Axe just as often as I can use the AA on necro scepter to apply a condition. All other weapon skills on those two classes are on cooldowns.

If I am on my warrior using axe and a target eats the full damage not mitigating any of the attacks, he will take more damage then if a target ate every attack of the AA chain on the sword Condition warrior. Further to that once damage applied it impacts for the full amount directly and not predicated on staying on the target for a period of time so as to reach its full damage potential.

The full chain of AXE power on the AA , which is just as spammable as the full chain on a warrior condition AA will apply a lot more raw damage then will three stacks of bleeds . I have died to the full chain of a warrior using Axe power. I have never died to three stacks of bleed.

Yeh sure, as en extreme example do please explain to me how can you keep hitting someone which got inside an structure with your power warrior.

Then 10k damage ticks\second for 6 extra seconds will be still ticking although there is no LoS between us which got applied just hitting buttons from 1 to 5 from a condi reaper

Explain me how that requires any skill.

Rednik.3809:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

snip

You know, I’d like to live in that magical world too, where conditions are not spammable by literally pressing any button on keyboard, ain’t covered by the tons of trash ones above them, and on top of that condi user is built as tanky as he like, because he really needs only ONE stat to do the damage, or invest into trailblazer and start hitting like a truck while still keeping all these sweet tank stats. Oh, and even more funny, you can do a lot of this damage as ranged, and even ignore projectile reflects!
Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

This is why I try not to respond to these kinds of threads. The people inside them are immune to reason. Have fun refusing to get better.

I believe some conditions builds are over-tuned as well as some power builds.
Deathly Chill should be looked at. That trait applies way too much bleeding.
Daredevil endurance should be looked at.
Perplexity Mesmer/Chrono has alot of survivability for the damage it can do.
Berserker adrenaline gain should be reduced or Berserk F1 CDs should be increased.

Those are the 4 outliers that come to mind.

Also, the Devs should take into account (not balance around, just keep in mind) that most condi builds can and usually do run high duration increase times effectively doubling the damage output. Well not double but very close to it.

Draeyon.4392:

I believe some conditions builds are over-tuned as well as some power builds.
Deathly Chill should be looked at. That trait applies way too much bleeding.
Daredevil endurance should be looked at.
Perplexity Mesmer/Chrono has alot of survivability for the damage it can do.
Berserker adrenaline gain should be reduced or Berserk F1 CDs should be increased.

Those are the 4 outliers that come to mind.

Also, the Devs should take into account (not balance around, just keep in mind) that most condi builds can and usually do run high duration increase times effectively doubling the damage output. Well not double but very close to it.

every single perplex trailblazer condi spam builds on every class should be deleted

See I don’t have much of a problem with the damage a Conditions build can pump out, it’s the application that bothers me, and the amount of stacks that can w/o fail be stacked vs. a persons ability to cleanse those stacks/conditions, you may be able to cleanse a few, but those are usually the cover-conditions that are before the big stacks of Burn/Bleed/Confusion ect.

Secondly it’s the laughing out loud simplicity it takes to achieve good condition damage/stacks, aka condition damage purely, because most builds have trait options that increase the duration’s of X weapon, along with food/util and gear like Trailblazers. While power builds to achieve these numbers, need three stats, Power/Prec/Ferocity.

Now sure a Power build can burst, but so can a Condition build, and with the Condition build, the damage/burst they apply persists, while a Power build needs to consistently land hits/interrupts/cc if they hope to take down their opponent.

So, in conclusion, a few things need to be addressed:
Application Vs. Cleansing.
Stats required to deal substantial Condition Damage.
Gear sets such as Dire/Trailblazer (If Condition builds are going to require only ONE stat.)
The possibility of Vitality giving us a passive defense vs. Condition damage, like Toughness gives defense vs. Power damage.

But who knows, what the meta will be in a few weeks/months ect. it may shift back to Power or whatever. All I know, is how it is right now, needs attention and serious thought from the dev team.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

This is why I try not to respond to these kinds of threads. The people inside them are immune to reason. Have fun refusing to get better.

- “X is fine, l2p, nabs”
Hm, I think I’ve heard that before. A lot.

As far as I’m concerned, what I read here is people complaining that raw power is underperforming. Not that conditions are overperforming.

Example :

Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Why is it needed to “play a glassy build” ? Of course, not for the pleasure of bragging or being put in a hazardeous situation… Mainly because raw power needs really high stats to do big bursts.
Yet this is not where tweaks are needed, because if damage efficiency is raised, players will keep on using these stats and not invest in survivability, because :

1. The best survivability tactic is end the fight as quick as possible ;
2. Players don’t want to bother with a long fight because the game is boring.

So, it needs skill first because you’re going naked to a fight. The second reason is related to the complains about AoE. I play power with my warriors and guardians, and they’re mostly melee. It requires far more skill than condi necro, because you need to stick to your opponent (melee) and because of the huge LoS, targetting, “no valid path” and all those.

In a nutshell : when you play melee power, you’re playing against GW2’s engine.

Conditions are fine. Perfectly fine. They’re at their place, and work as intended. Maybe there’re just too many spam possibilities. The reason why they’re so much better than raw power is constant ticks and easier targetting removes the issues with the engine.

I love my power DH, I truly love him, but I hate seeing “no valid path” when I’m trying to port using judge intervention. I hate using F1 to pull and have the enemy fall on his feet and not in my taps. I hate using true shot and have it fail because I’m one step higher in a staircase. I hate re-targetting issues while I’ve disabled all of those options. And I truly believe these are the reasons why I don’t deal as much damage as I should.

It’d be great if all the people playing power would cease to say : “Hey ! My toys are broken and his work ! Please destroy his so that we both could be unhappy !” and ask for real improvements for everyone.

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

The real problem here is the survivability.

In general, I think players have come to expect that a build should be either tanky or damaging but never both.

If I come up against a glass cannon power build I know they’ll output insane damage but they’re also kind of fragile – so I respect the risk:reward payoff.

Most forum complaints about overpowered classes stem from their survivability combined with their damage (thief damage with perma evades, condi trailblazer everything, rev hammer from range).

High damage plus high survivability = forum complaints.

So it’s not the damage that is the problem here, it is the combination of damage AND survivability.

High condi damage should have low armour, evading thieves should either have less evades or less damage, zerk hammer Revs should have their range reduced or their hammer damage values inverted (closest hit does most damage).

It’s all about finding that balance between survivability and damage.

Condi is a problem because armour like Trailblazer and Dire allow you to combine damage AND survivability. That doesn’t mean condis are broken though, it’s the stat combos that are broken. It’s the evades that are broken (thief). It’s the range that is broken (rev hammer).

I agree! It reminds me of Team Fortress 2 and the Spy. The Spy can one hit someone in the back , but they risk alot by having to sneak into a base and basically having no protection once they get hit. Infact they usually get knocked out in one or two hits. Its a fair trade, and its a class with stealth and deception that no one complains about. There has to be a give and take. Even the Sniper which can one shot from a distance, loses visibility when doing so, so he cant see whats around him, basically opens himself up to an easy shot and has a relatively slow reload.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

This is why I try not to respond to these kinds of threads. The people inside them are immune to reason. Have fun refusing to get better.

I’ll bet every character in your sig is running a condi spec…

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

Rednik.3809:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

snip

You know, I’d like to live in that magical world too, where conditions are not spammable by literally pressing any button on keyboard, ain’t covered by the tons of trash ones above them, and on top of that condi user is built as tanky as he like, because he really needs only ONE stat to do the damage, or invest into trailblazer and start hitting like a truck while still keeping all these sweet tank stats. Oh, and even more funny, you can do a lot of this damage as ranged, and even ignore projectile reflects!
Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Pwer builds are equally able to spam attacks .

If, as example , I am on my power warrior with AXE I can spam the AA and apply damage just as easily as I can apply a condition using my condition warrior Sword using its AA.

If I am on power damage Necro I can spam the AA and apply damage with my necro Axe just as often as I can use the AA on necro scepter to apply a condition. All other weapon skills on those two classes are on cooldowns.

If I am on my warrior using axe and a target eats the full damage not mitigating any of the attacks, he will take more damage then if a target ate every attack of the AA chain on the sword Condition warrior. Further to that once damage applied it impacts for the full amount directly and not predicated on staying on the target for a period of time so as to reach its full damage potential.

The full chain of AXE power on the AA , which is just as spammable as the full chain on a warrior condition AA will apply a lot more raw damage then will three stacks of bleeds . I have died to the full chain of a warrior using Axe power. I have never died to three stacks of bleed.

Yeh sure, as en extreme example do please explain to me how can you keep hitting someone which got inside an structure with your power warrior.

Then 10k damage ticks\second for 6 extra seconds will be still ticking although there is no LoS between us which got applied just hitting buttons from 1 to 5 from a condi reaper

Explain me how that requires any skill.

Your rebuttal is devoid of logic. A person suffering conditions retreating into a building is just as safe from further attacks as is one who fled from a warrior. Those DOT ticks that continue to run had to be applied just like the 10k damage off the AXE warrior with his AA had to be applied. In order to get even close to doing 10k in damage they have to tick a LONG LONG time. They were applied BEFORE the structure entered with the only difference being the person on to which they were applied now has TIME to cleanse them which power attacks do not allow.

One cycle of an AA with axe can easily hit for 10k. 3 bleeds off a sword will never tick for 10k even if you sit there and refuse to cleanse .

You still do not grasp the differnece between DOT and Raw damage. One gets its damage all at once and one over time. The second is no “easier to apply”. You still had to make those attacks.

In order for that sword warrior to get enough bleed ticks to get close to 10k damage he will typically have to cycle through that AA three times and more before that other guy “retreats behind a wall” then hope that the other guy has no cleanse. Against a power warrior that can dish out 10k on an AA with an axe, you are not going to have the time to allow you to “retreat behind a wall” because power is not damage over time.

As to skill, hitting buttons one to 5 on a power build is no different then hitting buttons one to 5 on a condition build. Please tell me why hitting #3 for a warrior Throw Axe where cripple and damage applied is more skillful then hitting number 3 for a Necro Scepter casting Feast of corruption.

Both are ranged attacks. Throw axe has a range of 900 just as feast of corruption does. Throw axe has a 1/4 activation time as comapred to 3/4 of a second for feast of corruption. Feast has a 10 second cooldown as compared to an 8 for throw axe. Why is throw axe “more skillful” and how is it not just hitting a button to apply damage?

All i can say is after ANET nerfed Arc Divider and Shield Bash cast times on my beloved power war i decided to try condi war.

Made some exotic (not ascended) dire armor with ascended trailblazer trinkets from bitterfrost and i am now facerolling like never before. Over 3.4k armor, around 27k hp , and puking condis on people. GG anet, GG.

How ANET allows someone like me to gear a character with this much toughness and hp and still do insane condi damage is beyond me.

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

In your example a DB spammer Thief can drop any player in a matter of 2-5 seconds in WvW even on a Tanky build, all by loading them with Condis in a blink of an Eye using simple DB>Steal>Dodge it doesn’t take all that long as you make it out to be and with any cover Condis the thief is able to keep up the cleanses wouldn’t even be all that effective.

Again The bug disparity is Power damage has more mitigation that can mitigate damage to zero while Condi has oh so very few and almost all of damage mitigation required for Condi are Active while Power most of them are passive. From the first Application of damage power damage is already at a disadvantage in the majority of cases in WvW since almost all players run Toughness gear sets and Damage mitigation Runes. Again something Condis are not affected by.

And again let’s not forget To build power to do comparable damage it requires 3 stats vs 1 for Condi since we are talking about a Pvp environment here.

I didn’t neglect to mention anything.

You try to make it sound like it takes 2+ mins for optimal Condi Burst lulz.

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

Except in wvw its extremely easy to get hit by 5+ condi in a couple seconds where the bleeds can be 10+ stacks. Very very very few classes have the ability to remove more than 2 condi at a time. Any skills that remove more are usually on a 30 sec + cooldown. With HOT creep those 5 condi will be reapplied within another few seconds certainly less than 10 seconds later. Now you are left with your short cd cleanses that are almost certainly limited to removing 1 maybe 2 condis.

ThomasC.1056:

As far as I’m concerned, what I read here is people complaining that raw power is underperforming. Not that conditions are overperforming.

Example :

Please, go ahead and tell us that this requires same skill as playing glassy power builds.

Why is it needed to “play a glassy build” ? Of course, not for the pleasure of bragging or being put in a hazardeous situation… Mainly because raw power needs really high stats to do big bursts.
Yet this is not where tweaks are needed, because if damage efficiency is raised, players will keep on using these stats and not invest in survivability, because :

1. The best survivability tactic is end the fight as quick as possible ;
2. Players don’t want to bother with a long fight because the game is boring.

So, it needs skill first because you’re going naked to a fight. The second reason is related to the complains about AoE. I play power with my warriors and guardians, and they’re mostly melee. It requires far more skill than condi necro, because you need to stick to your opponent (melee) and because of the huge LoS, targetting, “no valid path” and all those.

In a nutshell : when you play melee power, you’re playing against GW2’s engine.

Conditions are fine. Perfectly fine. They’re at their place, and work as intended. Maybe there’re just too many spam possibilities. The reason why they’re so much better than raw power is constant ticks and easier targetting removes the issues with the engine.

I love my power DH, I truly love him, but I hate seeing “no valid path” when I’m trying to port using judge intervention. I hate using F1 to pull and have the enemy fall on his feet and not in my taps. I hate using true shot and have it fail because I’m one step higher in a staircase. I hate re-targetting issues while I’ve disabled all of those options. And I truly believe these are the reasons why I don’t deal as much damage as I should.

It’d be great if all the people playing power would cease to say : “Hey ! My toys are broken and his work ! Please destroy his so that we both could be unhappy !” and ask for real improvements for everyone.

I too think AOE and the relative ease which it applied as compared to the target type attacks is a greater issue. Ive had attcks that should have finished a person with my power builds fail simply because something I can not see is obstructing.

I think LOS is a good thing for the game as it adds tactical play as people dart behind objects undercover from ranged attacks but some of what causes that obstruction or invalid path to target just makes no sense.

Spartacus.3192:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

Except in wvw its extremely easy to get hit by 5+ condi in a couple seconds where the bleeds can be 10+ stacks. Very very very few classes have the ability to remove more than 2 condi at a time. Any skills that remove more are usually on a 30 sec + cooldown. With HOT creep those 5 condi will be reapplied within another few seconds certainly less than 10 seconds later. Now you are left with your short cd cleanses that are almost certainly limited to removing 1 maybe 2 condis.

This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?

Now I am not suggesting Gun flame or maul need nerfing. I am just saying you can not base an arguement as to whether conditions as a whole OP based on a single given attack. You have to look at all factors. IE with Gunflame and Maul there generally tells meaning you can avoid that incoming damage but I would aslo point out that if you had no blocks and were out of dodges those things are gonna hurt you big time just as you would be were you condi bombed and out of cleanses.

Sly.9518:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

In your example a DB spammer Thief can drop any player in a matter of 2-5 seconds in WvW even on a Tanky build, all by loading them with Condis in a blink of an Eye using simple DB>Steal>Dodge it doesn’t take all that long as you make it out to be and with any cover Condis the thief is able to keep up the cleanses wouldn’t even be all that effective.

Again The bug disparity is Power damage has more mitigation that can mitigate damage to zero while Condi has oh so very few and almost all of damage mitigation required for Condi are Active while Power most of them are passive. From the first Application of damage power damage is already at a disadvantage in the majority of cases in WvW since almost all players run Toughness gear sets and Damage mitigation Runes. Again something Condis are not affected by.

And again let’s not forget To build power to do comparable damage it requires 3 stats vs 1 for Condi since we are talking about a Pvp environment here.

I didn’t neglect to mention anything.

You try to make it sound like it takes 2+ mins for optimal Condi Burst lulz.

No he can’t. A DB thief can only drop poor players in a blink of an eye just as a power thief can drop poor players in the blink of an eye. Were DB thief able to drop anyone in 2 to 5 seconds that would all we see being played. The vast majority of thieves played are still d/p and there a reason for that.

As to time taken , I never said 2 minutes needed while you in fact said 2-5 seconds all that was needed. Now I personally have never been downed by a DB thief in 2-5 seconds on any of my builds while I have in fact witnessed condi versus power fights that lasted 2 minutes plus.

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

snip

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

In your example a DB spammer Thief can drop any player in a matter of 2-5 seconds in WvW even on a Tanky build, all by loading them with Condis in a blink of an Eye using simple DB>Steal>Dodge it doesn’t take all that long as you make it out to be and with any cover Condis the thief is able to keep up the cleanses wouldn’t even be all that effective.

Again The bug disparity is Power damage has more mitigation that can mitigate damage to zero while Condi has oh so very few and almost all of damage mitigation required for Condi are Active while Power most of them are passive. From the first Application of damage power damage is already at a disadvantage in the majority of cases in WvW since almost all players run Toughness gear sets and Damage mitigation Runes. Again something Condis are not affected by.

And again let’s not forget To build power to do comparable damage it requires 3 stats vs 1 for Condi since we are talking about a Pvp environment here.

I didn’t neglect to mention anything.

You try to make it sound like it takes 2+ mins for optimal Condi Burst lulz.

No he can’t. A DB thief can only drop poor players in a blink of an eye just as a power thief can drop poor players in the blink of an eye. Were DB thief able to drop anyone in 2 to 5 seconds that would all we see being played. The vast majority of thieves played are still d/p and there a reason for that.

As to time taken , I never said 2 minutes needed while you in fact said 2-5 seconds all that was needed. Now I personally have never been downed by a DB thief in 2-5 seconds on any of my builds while I have in fact witnessed condi versus power fights that lasted 2 minutes plus.

The sad thing is yes you can, especially after that first initial burst you Use CG field which will more likely shutdown any Cleanse/Heal, the reason I know this is from playing thief for close to 5 years now and playing Dire SB and D/D Thief a lot lately, and classes Like Reaper and Condi Mesmer can pump out even more Condis in a quicker succession in much larger stacks, yet those builds are afforded much higher survivability through Passive defensive stats alone and can maximize their damage at the same time while power builds actually have to make sacrifices to achieve high damage and at all times actively attack to deal the damage.

It’s a lot easier to spam your Burst then go into a defensive/kiting Rotation while your damage still ticks away mindlessly.

Again it would be real nice if Condis had the same amount of mitigation sources that power has and one of the main mitigating sources is only on a select few classes and can be stripped/corrupted so easily what a joke really or just having a Passive inherent stat that reduced Condi damage.

Come on now, it would be nice if you had a real argument to dispute.

But I get it, I i maimed a build/class that allowed me full defensive stats on top of maximized damage With out any sacrifice I wouldn’t want to have it equalized either.

Lulz

Sly.9518:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

snip

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

In your example a DB spammer Thief can drop any player in a matter of 2-5 seconds in WvW even on a Tanky build, all by loading them with Condis in a blink of an Eye using simple DB>Steal>Dodge it doesn’t take all that long as you make it out to be and with any cover Condis the thief is able to keep up the cleanses wouldn’t even be all that effective.

Again The bug disparity is Power damage has more mitigation that can mitigate damage to zero while Condi has oh so very few and almost all of damage mitigation required for Condi are Active while Power most of them are passive. From the first Application of damage power damage is already at a disadvantage in the majority of cases in WvW since almost all players run Toughness gear sets and Damage mitigation Runes. Again something Condis are not affected by.

And again let’s not forget To build power to do comparable damage it requires 3 stats vs 1 for Condi since we are talking about a Pvp environment here.

I didn’t neglect to mention anything.

You try to make it sound like it takes 2+ mins for optimal Condi Burst lulz.

No he can’t. A DB thief can only drop poor players in a blink of an eye just as a power thief can drop poor players in the blink of an eye. Were DB thief able to drop anyone in 2 to 5 seconds that would all we see being played. The vast majority of thieves played are still d/p and there a reason for that.

As to time taken , I never said 2 minutes needed while you in fact said 2-5 seconds all that was needed. Now I personally have never been downed by a DB thief in 2-5 seconds on any of my builds while I have in fact witnessed condi versus power fights that lasted 2 minutes plus.

The sad thing is yes you can, especially after that first initial burst you Use CG field which will more likely shutdown any Cleanse/Heal, the reason I know this is from playing thief for close to 5 years now and playing Dire SB and D/D Thief a lot lately, and classes Like Reaper and Condi Mesmer can pump out even more Condis in a quicker succession in much larger stacks, yet those builds are afforded much higher survivability through Passive defensive stats alone and can maximize their damage at the same time while power builds actually have to make sacrifices to achieve high damage and at all times actively attack to deal the damage.

It’s a lot easier to spam your Burst then go into a defensive/kiting Rotation while your damage still ticks away mindlessly.

Again it would be real nice if Condis had the same amount of mitigation sources that power has and one of the main mitigating sources is only on a select few classes and can be stripped/corrupted so easily what a joke really or just having a Passive inherent stat that reduced Condi damage.

Come on now, it would be nice if you had a real argument to dispute.

But I get it, I i maimed a build/class that allowed me full defensive stats on top of maximized damage With out any sacrifice I wouldn’t want to have it equalized either.

Lulz

just move out of the field. Not only are you getting out of the gas field, but you are getting out of the DB umbrella. You know if I just STOOD in a meteor showers AOE I would die too. DB is melee range only and the damage easy to avoid. Just walk out of melee range. D/D Condi thief has terrible mobility and is easily kited.

Oh and I play mostly power. I have 20 some odd toons across two accounts. Only four are condi and I rarely play two of them. None are in dire. I started a new one in carrion, but he a hybrid, same armor and vitality as a power build.

Again, if anyone dies to a DB thief in 2 to 5 seconds it a L2p and really, with steal, choking gas, weapon swap all factored in, just how many DBS are you getting off in 2 seconds? Someone dies to that? Given most people have around 20k health you are talking about a 10k tick before you even attack in order to get your 2 seconds.

Ahka.6705:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

This is why I try not to respond to these kinds of threads. The people inside them are immune to reason. Have fun refusing to get better.

I’ll bet every character in your sig is running a condi spec…

Nope. Been vanilla condition Necromancer since day 1, 4 years ago. The other 3 are power.

My Warrior is full Berserker Rifle + Axe/Shield, my Ranger is vanilla pew pew Ranger, full Berserker, Scholar rune, LB + GS and my Engineer is hybrid Commander/Celestial mix Flamethrower build for zerging.

I’ve played various different builds on all of them but my Necromancer is the only one who has remained condition. Power is easier and more effective in most situations. I actually know how to fight most condition builds, unlike 95% of the people who come to these forums. And that’s not to say I’m a good player, because I’m not. I’m just not an idiot.

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

And I bet to hit that squishy for 10k+ you need more than one stat, yes? Like, Power to scale the attack’s damage, Precision to activate your crit damage modifier, and Ferocity to scale up the damage you do when you crit, right?

Needed things to be successful:
Condition Build: Condition Damage Stat (Attack then kite target till dead.)
Power Build: Power/Precision/Ferocity (Consistently land attacks while fighting through the two to three times the amount of mitigation.)

We get it, people want the Ebola Meta to never-ever die, because the easier it is to do something, the longer people want to do that and have it around.

Sly.9518:

From the first Application of damage power damage is already at a disadvantage in the majority of cases in WvW since almost all players run Toughness gear sets and Damage mitigation Runes.

Clearly if the majority of WvW players are gearing themselves to counter power damage (which is literally what you’re describing), then it’s because they see it as a major threat to be dealt with, no?

Odokuro.5049:

babazhook.6805:

Sly.9518:

Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.

Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damage

Reduced by:

Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction Runes

Now

Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)

What it’s reduced by

Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi duration

The main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.

But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.

And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.

You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.

If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.

The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.

If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.

And I bet to hit that squishy for 10k+ you need more than one stat, yes? Like, Power to scale the attack’s damage, Precision to activate your crit damage modifier, and Ferocity to scale up the damage you do when you crit, right?

Needed things to be successful:
Condition Build: Condition Damage Stat (Attack then kite target till dead.)
Power Build: Power/Precision/Ferocity (Consistently land attacks while fighting through the two to three times the amount of mitigation.)

We get it, people want the Ebola Meta to never-ever die, because the easier it is to do something, the longer people want to do that and have it around.

Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.

It an old tired tactic.

The vast majority of my toons are power. I have none in Dire. Try again.

babazhook.6805:

Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.

You’ve got that the wrong way round, the notion that you could prove the negative in that situation is an illogical proposition, after all you can’t have people in every possible location in Iraq at once.

So the only people short on facts were those wanting to push their agenda claiming he had WMD programmes without the evidence to support that, which is why I guess some people may make comments about “koolaid” given that even after they invaded the country the inspection teams didn’t find these active WMD programmes.

They just need to balance between PvE and WvW. The deathly chill buff applying to WvW and the thief endurance nerfs NOT applying to WvW are just head scratchingly strange balance choices.