Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.
You’ve got that the wrong way round, the notion that you could prove the negative in that situation is an illogical proposition, after all you can’t have people in every possible location in Iraq at once.
So the only people short on facts were those wanting to push their agenda claiming he had WMD programmes without the evidence to support that, which is why I guess some people may make comments about “koolaid” given that even after they invaded the country the inspection teams didn’t find these active WMD programmes.
Wat??
Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.
Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damageReduced by:
Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction RunesNow
Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)What it’s reduced by
Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi durationThe main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.
But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.
And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.
You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.
If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.
The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.
If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.
And I bet to hit that squishy for 10k+ you need more than one stat, yes? Like, Power to scale the attack’s damage, Precision to activate your crit damage modifier, and Ferocity to scale up the damage you do when you crit, right?
Needed things to be successful:
Condition Build: Condition Damage Stat (Attack then kite target till dead.)
Power Build: Power/Precision/Ferocity (Consistently land attacks while fighting through the two to three times the amount of mitigation.)We get it, people want the Ebola Meta to never-ever die, because the easier it is to do something, the longer people want to do that and have it around.
Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.
It an old tired tactic.
The vast majority of my toons are power. I have none in Dire. Try again.
Never did I accuse you of playing a Condition build, I merely implied that you must have forgotten for your Thief to do that amount of damage, you need more than just one stat, opposed to Condition builds that do truly need just one stat to crank out high tick damage.
So with your words, “Try Again”.
Get hit with condis wipe condis, Same condis can no longer apply within 15sec, game balanced, thiefs sacrifice damge for evades or evades for damage, this is the very reason warrior was nerfed, high survivability with high damage, nerfed to the ground, but also with high tell attacks which sucks.
Nerf Deathly Chill, Nerf thief endurance BS.
Power builds are at a Lower efficacy let’s take a look at everything that reduces effectiveness of both and what both need to maximize damage in a Pvp environment.
Power:
Power
Crit
Ferocity
To utilize max damageReduced by:
Protection
Frost Aura
Weakness
Invulnerability Condis will tick through but any preapplied Power damage won’t)
Pseudo Invulns i.e. Signet of Stone, and Endure pain
Armor/Toughness
Class Specific Effects i.e. Bulwark Gyro/Great Dwarf
Damage Reduction foods
Damage Reduction Traits
Damage Reduction RunesNow
Condi
Condi Damage
Lesser extent duration/expertise (less needed in Pvp environments due to Condi Spam ability and cleanses exist)What it’s reduced by
Cleanses
Resistance
Runes/Sigils that Cleanse
Traits that cleanse
Food that reduces Condi duration
Runes that reduce Condi durationThe main issues with Condis in a Pvp environment are the amount of applicability even if cleansed while not havin enough other ways to mitigate the damage since they will be reapplied almost instantly.
But it’s ok in people’s minds that power damage can all but be completely negated by a lot of passive effects/healing but Woe is everyone of Condi is given the same treatment.
And there is no Single stat combo that provides all the defensive and offensive stats to maximize damage output as well as defensive yet Condi is afforded this opportunity.
You neglect to mention that DOT conditions tend to do less damage in the first place and only start ticking hard after multiple attacks so your comparison incomplete. As example if I take my p/p thief i can invest 5 ini and get two of it back and easily hit a squishie for 10 k and more in spite of those mitigation measures off unload. This will all happen in just around a second.
If I went onto a condition thief (the maligned DB spammer as example) and used ITS primary means of applying damage, that same #3 I would have to spam through at least 3 cycles of DB at 12 ini to get damage that will approach the Unload damage only if it not ever cleansed.
The IMMEDIATE nature of the damage of power over condition has to be factored in as does what any single given attack can do when comparing them on a one for one basis. The reason why it much more important that a condition build have higher armor is that they need more time to ramp up their conditions . They generally need to use more iterations of a given attack to get to that point. It becomes very hard to have that time if up against a build that can put out 10k damage in one single attack.
If there more individual ways to mitigate power damage it just as likely because raw power damage is that much more deadly. Again this not to suggest there indvidual skills in condition builds that need looking at, it merly pointing out this does not reflect an issue with conditions overall anymore then a given skill in a power build needing to be tweaked downwards relfected an issue with POWER overall.
And I bet to hit that squishy for 10k+ you need more than one stat, yes? Like, Power to scale the attack’s damage, Precision to activate your crit damage modifier, and Ferocity to scale up the damage you do when you crit, right?
Needed things to be successful:
Condition Build: Condition Damage Stat (Attack then kite target till dead.)
Power Build: Power/Precision/Ferocity (Consistently land attacks while fighting through the two to three times the amount of mitigation.)We get it, people want the Ebola Meta to never-ever die, because the easier it is to do something, the longer people want to do that and have it around.
Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.
It an old tired tactic.
The vast majority of my toons are power. I have none in Dire. Try again.
Never did I accuse you of playing a Condition build, I merely implied that you must have forgotten for your Thief to do that amount of damage, you need more than just one stat, opposed to Condition builds that do truly need just one stat to crank out high tick damage.
So with your words, “Try Again”.
>>>We get it, people want the Ebola Meta to never-ever die, because the easier it is to do something, the longer people want to do that and have it around.
YOUR words.
Typical response by a person not able to rebut the facts. They alwys fall into the “well the only reason you defend conditions is because you play one and want to faceroll” It rather lame. It reminds me of all of those people claiming Saddam did not have WMDS with those short on the facts claiming "you must have drank his koolaid or are on his payroll’.
You’ve got that the wrong way round, the notion that you could prove the negative in that situation is an illogical proposition, after all you can’t have people in every possible location in Iraq at once.
So the only people short on facts were those wanting to push their agenda claiming he had WMD programmes without the evidence to support that, which is why I guess some people may make comments about “koolaid” given that even after they invaded the country the inspection teams didn’t find these active WMD programmes.
You are very confused and totally missed the point.
They just need to balance between PvE and WvW. The deathly chill buff applying to WvW and the thief endurance nerfs NOT applying to WvW are just head scratchingly strange balance choices.
I am curious, have they made any announcements in the past about separating more and more WvW/PvP and PvE skills? It would definitely help with a lot of issues. I understand the thiefs ability/need to dodge through PvE mobs/damage, but infinite dodging/evading in PvP/WvW isnt much fun for anyone.
They just need to balance between PvE and WvW. The deathly chill buff applying to WvW and the thief endurance nerfs NOT applying to WvW are just head scratchingly strange balance choices.
I am curious, have they made any announcements in the past about separating more and more WvW/PvP and PvE skills? It would definitely help with a lot of issues. I understand the thiefs ability/need to dodge through PvE mobs/damage, but infinite dodging/evading in PvP/WvW isnt much fun for anyone.
It would help if you read patchnotes the last 3 or 4 balance patches have made Bebe and Pvp specific balance changes……..
And lulz thieves don’t have unlimited Dodges (they have a lot that’s for sure but over exaggeration doesn’t get anyone anywhere) especially not in Pvp where they have been nerfing Thief Dodges/evades the Last 3 patches without impunity.
Now I would like to see all the Pvp changes worked into WvW bar the SB4 for Thief, I had stated before they nerfed it with a hammer in Pvp that it should have been shipped with a 2sec ICD and not the 1 sec ICD that’s plaguing WvW and not the 4 sec Nerf hammered version of pvp. I beleive if all the Pvp only changes made it to WvW it would greatly improve the health of WvW and the balance
(edited by Sly.9518)
This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?
You’re comparing an extreme situation to a normal situation. To achieve those hits, those characters can be sneezed on and be double-downed. You cannot even begin to justify comparing counterplay here.
They just need to balance between PvE and WvW. The deathly chill buff applying to WvW and the thief endurance nerfs NOT applying to WvW are just head scratchingly strange balance choices.
I am curious, have they made any announcements in the past about separating more and more WvW/PvP and PvE skills? It would definitely help with a lot of issues. I understand the thiefs ability/need to dodge through PvE mobs/damage, but infinite dodging/evading in PvP/WvW isnt much fun for anyone.
It would help if you read patchnotes the last 3 or 4 balance patches have made Bebe and Pvp specific balance changes……..
And lulz thieves don’t have unlimited Dodges (they have a lot that’s for sure but over exaggeration doesn’t get anyone anywhere) especially not in Pvp where they have been nerfing Thief Dodges/evades the Last 3 patches without impunity.
Oh no doubt, I am not saying get rid of them completely, just my experience and it seems like others would echo that sentiment, maybe tone it down some more. But not hitting thieves specifically either, other evasion oriented classes that rely on stealth as well.
But yeah you are right, I know they have been doing that for the last few patches, I was just wondering if they are going to keep in that direction, it definitely seems like the best course to take!
This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?
You’re comparing an extreme situation to a normal situation. To achieve those hits, those characters can be sneezed on and be double-downed. You cannot even begin to justify comparing counterplay here.
Please define the NORMAL situations where these condition apps applied. If you come back with only one class that can do it, then it a fail.
I have a warrior with ~3k armor and 26K health that can put out a 10k headbutt. he does not die to a sneeze and as my post alluded to, if there instances where one given skill /profession OP , than it can be looked at. It does not translate to conditions are OP in general in the least.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?
You’re comparing an extreme situation to a normal situation. To achieve those hits, those characters can be sneezed on and be double-downed. You cannot even begin to justify comparing counterplay here.
Please define the NORMAL situations where these condition apps applied. If you come back with only one class that can do it, then it a fail.
My warrior is in ~3k armor and has over 26k health. He a power warrior that can chrun out plenty of damage . He does not die to a sneeze.
Condi necros, mesmers, thieves and revenants can all dish out those condi numbers faster than any profession other than support ele can cleanse. They can also do so while having high amounts of toughness and vitality.
No, your 26k hp warrior does not do 10k headbutts – at least not in a practical situation. That would require 700 points allocated to vitality. What are you in, full Valkyrie gear? If so, your opinion no longer means anything since that’s not even close to gear that an experienced warrior would run, for painfully obvious reasons.
This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?
You’re comparing an extreme situation to a normal situation. To achieve those hits, those characters can be sneezed on and be double-downed. You cannot even begin to justify comparing counterplay here.
Please define the NORMAL situations where these condition apps applied. If you come back with only one class that can do it, then it a fail.
My warrior is in ~3k armor and has over 26k health. He a power warrior that can chrun out plenty of damage . He does not die to a sneeze.
Condi necros, mesmers, thieves and revenants can all dish out those condi numbers faster than any profession other than support ele can cleanse. They can also do so while having high amounts of toughness and vitality.
No, your 26k hp warrior does not do 10k headbutts – at least not in a practical situation. That would require 700 points allocated to vitality. What are you in, full Valkyrie gear? If so, your opinion no longer means anything since that’s not even close to gear that an experienced warrior would run, for painfully obvious reasons.
They HAVE to be able to dish out conditions faster then another can cleanse or the condition build will be useless. Why do people persist in the inane argument that you have to keep up to condition applications with cleanses?
You do NOT HAVE to cleanse them all anymore then you have to avoid all damage from a power build. D/p power thief will still tend to win against a Condi thief. my staff power thief (p/p off hand) does very well against mesmer/thief rev condition. Necro trickier thoough range and kite works.
I have givn the link to my warrior. Try it. When those "experienced " warriors complain they can not survive against condition builds, while mine does, I do not think they all that experienced. Now my own warrior has since dropped headbutt in favor of a Rage simply because the latter works better in his build (allowing ~90 percent crit rate with 200 percent plus ferocity) but he chruns out plenty of damage. Added to this oodles of resistance.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
This is related to very specific builds and should be addressed on an individual basis. A single gun flame can hit for close to 20k. A maul from a ranger can do you in instantly. Are those ok while 10 stacks bleed not?
You’re comparing an extreme situation to a normal situation. To achieve those hits, those characters can be sneezed on and be double-downed. You cannot even begin to justify comparing counterplay here.
Please define the NORMAL situations where these condition apps applied. If you come back with only one class that can do it, then it a fail.
My warrior is in ~3k armor and has over 26k health. He a power warrior that can chrun out plenty of damage . He does not die to a sneeze.
Condi necros, mesmers, thieves and revenants can all dish out those condi numbers faster than any profession other than support ele can cleanse. They can also do so while having high amounts of toughness and vitality.
No, your 26k hp warrior does not do 10k headbutts – at least not in a practical situation. That would require 700 points allocated to vitality. What are you in, full Valkyrie gear? If so, your opinion no longer means anything since that’s not even close to gear that an experienced warrior would run, for painfully obvious reasons.
They HAVE to be able to dish out conditions faster then another can cleanse or the condition build will be useless. Why do people persist in the inane argument that you have to keep up to condition applications with cleanses?
You do NOT HAVE to cleanse them all anymore then you have to avoid all damage from a power build.
I have givn the link to my warrior. Try it. When those "experienced " warriors complain they can not survive against condition builds, while mine does, I do not think they all that experienced.
So why is it ok for some Meta builds to be able to completely negate Power damage with little to no risk and easily so? Those same builds aren’t able to do that against Condis though.
And cleansing isn’t reliable on the majority of classes due to the priority system in place, more often then not it’s a useless Condi that is cleanses and not any of the real threats, and there is no passive defense to condi damage everything is active defense unlike power.
And one more time Condi builds can build as Tanky as they want without sacrificing any damage all the while being capable of causing Burst damage and downing players in a matter of seconds, while to achieve the same damage Power has to go almost pure glass.
So one more time why the double standard? (<—- this is rhetorical, I already know why, it’s quite obvious)
(edited by Sly.9518)
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Power does MORE damage and people do not HAVE to invest in more stats. They do because it allows them to do MORE damage.
if Ferocity and crits allowed Conditions to do more damage people would invest in those as they already to with Sinsiter type necroes.
Again I have given my link to a power warrior with ~3k armor and 26k health. He does plenty of damage and has plenty of sustain.
As to your claim it only ONE condition that ramps up that damage what has that to do with anything? That condition can easily be cleansed before it does that much damage meaning covers are needed. On the other hand I need no “cover conditions” to get 10k plus damage of an unload in 1.5 seconds. The damage is DONE. There no chance to prevent its full damage once it done This also only ONE attack.
A clense IS a mitigation measure so do not pretend it not. We have always had cleanses. TIME is also a mitigation measure. You have more time to deal with the damage applied.
As to heals, heals work just as well to recover from condition damage. I do not know where you get the idea they only work for power damage.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
@bab
Link build on editor please.
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Power does MORE damage and people do not HAVE to invest in more stats. They do because it allows them to do MORE damage.
if Ferocity and crits allowed Conditions to do more damage people would invest in those as they already to with Sinsiter type necroes.
Again I have given my link to a power warrior with ~3k armor and 26k health. He does plenty of damage and has plenty of sustain.
As to your claim it only ONE condition that ramps up that damage what has that to do with anything? That condition can easily be cleansed before it does that much damage meaning covers are needed. On the other hand I need no “cover conditions” to get 10k plus damage of an unload in 1.5 seconds. The damage is DONE. There no chance to prevent its full damage once it done This also only ONE attack.
A clense IS a mitigation measure so do not pretend it not. We have always had cleanses. TIME is also a mitigation measure. You have more time to deal with the damage applied.
As to heals, heals work just as well to recover from condition damage. I do not know where you get the idea they only work for power damage.
Hey can you post your Warrior build in a video, in WvW, doing that 10k crit, thanks, it would really be appreciate, buddy…
@bab
Link build on editor please.
This the raw build since modified. Ie I have boosted boon duration a bit more and tend to use eternal champion over bloody roar. I also will mix up in the signets used. I found Fury quite effective in this build as you can in essence get 480 added precision out of it plus adrenaline refills. I also like access to 10 seconds unblockable attacks as that can really do a number on the DH block chains. (frenzy is also a nice option as you can use that quickess to spike damage and or better land high tell skills) I carry all weapons in the build outside longbow and will switch them out. As example I also have an axe with night sigil which only comes out at night.
Others will claim you can not give up the discipline line. I found that not the case as on a one for one basis you will find the combination of boon duration and the skills chosen can get you a lot of what discipline offers via other means. (ie rage gives near permanent swiftness and fury. Durations mean dumpling and the Strength sigil add lots of might stacks, there plenty of adrenaline and so on). Fast hands missed but I found I was not needing to swap every 5 seconds in any case.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I don’t understand how people can justify arguing this:
Can you be effective in all Soldier’s stats? Realistically: no.
Can you be effective in all Dire stats? Proven and common knowledge: yes.
Is someone in Dire stats effective as someone in Berserker stats?
-In zergs: Yes, more effective than Berserker.
-In small scale: Yes, equally as effective, and in some situations, more effective.
So where is the justification that one person who is just as effective as another, gets to have ~10k more HP and ~1000 more toughness?
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Power does MORE damage and people do not HAVE to invest in more stats. They do because it allows them to do MORE damage.
if Ferocity and crits allowed Conditions to do more damage people would invest in those as they already to with Sinsiter type necroes.
Again I have given my link to a power warrior with ~3k armor and 26k health. He does plenty of damage and has plenty of sustain.
As to your claim it only ONE condition that ramps up that damage what has that to do with anything? That condition can easily be cleansed before it does that much damage meaning covers are needed. On the other hand I need no “cover conditions” to get 10k plus damage of an unload in 1.5 seconds. The damage is DONE. There no chance to prevent its full damage once it done This also only ONE attack.
A clense IS a mitigation measure so do not pretend it not. We have always had cleanses. TIME is also a mitigation measure. You have more time to deal with the damage applied.
As to heals, heals work just as well to recover from condition damage. I do not know where you get the idea they only work for power damage.
Power and Condi do comparable Burst damage now a pure glass cannon designed for 1 large attack every 30 secs can exceed that for power but that is absolutely no defenses.
The disparity is to get comparable damage power builds need 3 stats vs Condis 1.
Go ahead compare damage from a Full Soldiers Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer to a Full Dire Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer. Go ahead the Condi will Surpass the Power build in Burst Damage and sustained damage.
Inb4 that’s not a fair comparison/that doesn’t count/((insert lame excuse here))
Why not? Hey provide the exact same stats just swap Power for Condi. It’s the exact same everything except Condi is a lot more powerful stat then Power since Power has to rely on 2 additional Stats to do comparable damage so they have to give up all the defensive stats.
And again There is more damage mitigation in game one every single class than there is for Condi so.
And Cover Condies stop effective Cleansing from happening and with the amount of Condi spam and cover Condi spam the main damaging Condies aren’t cleansed as easily as you try make it seem due to the cleansing mechanic, and even if you do get the damaging Condies off they will be reapplied again and no more cleanse lulz.
And why is it allowed for classes/builds to be able to Completely make power damage useless through heals? You make perfectly clear that it’s fine that Condies can’t be completely cleanses and should be able to Burst through cleanses and kill the defender, but whenever I ask this question to fail to address it.
Once again the bias is showing.
Edited s Spelling error and Bolded the Condi statements for a certain player
(edited by Sly.9518)
I don’t understand how people can justify arguing this:
Can you be effective in all Soldier’s stats? Realistically: no.
Can you be effective in all Dire stats? Proven and common knowledge: yes.
Is someone in Dire stats effective as someone in Berserker stats?
-In zergs: Yes, more effective than Berserker.
-In small scale: Yes, equally as effective, and in some situations, more effective.So where is the justification that one person who is just as effective as another, gets to have ~10k more HP and ~1000 more toughness?
I have given you the link to my warrior build that has 3k armor 26k health. He is not in soldiers and is very effective. He is highly resistant to conditions outside of a zerg.
That said what is your point? That because a build can not be effective in soldiers a condition build should not be effective? Do you listen to yourself?
If a condition build forced into lighter armors Power would destroy it and it would not be effective.
if a condtion build did less damage while in dire a power build would destroy it. You are arguing for only one effective build. Simple fact. For tht power build fighting that dire Condition user , the more cleanses traited the less effective the condition build becomes. Traiting cleanses does not help against a power build. Armor does that.
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Power does MORE damage and people do not HAVE to invest in more stats. They do because it allows them to do MORE damage.
if Ferocity and crits allowed Conditions to do more damage people would invest in those as they already to with Sinsiter type necroes.
Again I have given my link to a power warrior with ~3k armor and 26k health. He does plenty of damage and has plenty of sustain.
As to your claim it only ONE condition that ramps up that damage what has that to do with anything? That condition can easily be cleansed before it does that much damage meaning covers are needed. On the other hand I need no “cover conditions” to get 10k plus damage of an unload in 1.5 seconds. The damage is DONE. There no chance to prevent its full damage once it done This also only ONE attack.
A clense IS a mitigation measure so do not pretend it not. We have always had cleanses. TIME is also a mitigation measure. You have more time to deal with the damage applied.
As to heals, heals work just as well to recover from condition damage. I do not know where you get the idea they only work for power damage.
Power and Condi do comparable Burst damage now a pure glass cannon designed for 1 large attack every 30 secs can exceed that for power but that is absolutely no defenses.
The disparity is to get comparable damage power builds need 3 stats vs Condis 1.
Go ahead compare damage from a Full Soldiers Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer to a Full Dire Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer. Go ahead the Condi will Surpass the Power build in Burst Damage and sustained damage.
Inb4 that’s not a fair comparison/that doesn’t count/((insert lame excuse here))
Why not? Hey provide the exact same stats just swap Power for Condi. It’s the exact same everything except Condi is a lot more powerful stat then Power since Power has to rely on 2 additional Stats to do comparable damage so they have to give up all the defensive stats.
And again There is more damage mitigation in game one every single class than there is for Condi so.
And Cover Condies stop effective Cleansing from happening and with the amount of Condi spam and cover Condi spam the main damaging Condies are cleansed as easily as you try make it seem due to the cleansing mechanic, and even if you do get the damaging Condies off they will be reapplied again and no more cleanse lulz.
And why is it allowed for classes/builds to be able to Completely make power damage useless through heals? You make perfectly clear that it’s fine that Condies can’t be completely cleanses and should be able to Burst through cleanses and kill the defender, but whenever I ask this question to fail to address it.
Once again the bias is showing.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
Because given scaling amounts for someone who is condition geared, a single condition application, not stack, but single application, does far more damage than a single hit from 90% of a power based build’s attack. And even the small amount of power based attacks (warrior burst abilities, backstabs, true shot, you name it) cannot match some single application condition abilites.
For example: my condi Warrior’s LB5 does over 21,000 bleeding. Unlike your 20k gunflame, my example is not under extreme circumstances. 1 ability. Granted it takes 17 seconds, sure, but that is what this whole thread is about – professions that have insane defenses can apply conditions and quickly use up their opponents cleanses, then kite/evade/stealth or just generally sustain.
It takes seventeen seconds to ramp up to that damage. in 1.5 seconds I get over 10k off a single unload.
I can switch from p/p to my off hand set and do 6k damage off a single shadowshot and followup with an AA chain that takes around a second that will do more damage yet.
Your ramp up to that 17 seconds assumes the enemy does NOTHING in response. They are perfectly capable of attacking and reacting before that amounf of bleed applied. Indded only one skill on LB applies that bleed and it on a ICD of 25 seconds. It has an activation time of 3/4s yet somehow gunflame can be avoided and Lb5 can not? They can not cleanse it before its duration runs out if it IS applied? Just who the heck are you fighting that can not cleanse 6 stacks of bleeds withing 17 seconds.
Added to that once you are in a zerg, those conditions can be cleansed on an ongoing basis much more readily then the power damage can.
Were Condition damage as easy to apply and get to the numbers you suggest in real game terms, every build in PvP and every build in WvW would be condition.
You are failing to realize that is only one Condi able to ramp up damage yet it is hardly ever the case of only one damaging condi and no cover Condis are on a target. Sorry but the bias is showing.
And again why does Power have to invest in full offensive stats to do comparable damage? Why is Power the only one with passive mitigation stats applied from the get go, why does Power have more mitigation sources that can effectively reduce damage to negligible amounts if not 0? Why is ok for Builds to be able to make Power builds useless through heals and passive Defensive stats and affect but not have the same situation for Condi?
Power does MORE damage and people do not HAVE to invest in more stats. They do because it allows them to do MORE damage.
if Ferocity and crits allowed Conditions to do more damage people would invest in those as they already to with Sinsiter type necroes.
Again I have given my link to a power warrior with ~3k armor and 26k health. He does plenty of damage and has plenty of sustain.
As to your claim it only ONE condition that ramps up that damage what has that to do with anything? That condition can easily be cleansed before it does that much damage meaning covers are needed. On the other hand I need no “cover conditions” to get 10k plus damage of an unload in 1.5 seconds. The damage is DONE. There no chance to prevent its full damage once it done This also only ONE attack.
A clense IS a mitigation measure so do not pretend it not. We have always had cleanses. TIME is also a mitigation measure. You have more time to deal with the damage applied.
As to heals, heals work just as well to recover from condition damage. I do not know where you get the idea they only work for power damage.
Power and Condi do comparable Burst damage now a pure glass cannon designed for 1 large attack every 30 secs can exceed that for power but that is absolutely no defenses.
The disparity is to get comparable damage power builds need 3 stats vs Condis 1.
Go ahead compare damage from a Full Soldiers Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer to a Full Dire Warrior or Necro or Thief or Mesmer. Go ahead the Condi will Surpass the Power build in Burst Damage and sustained damage.
Inb4 that’s not a fair comparison/that doesn’t count/((insert lame excuse here))
Why not? Hey provide the exact same stats just swap Power for Condi. It’s the exact same everything except Condi is a lot more powerful stat then Power since Power has to rely on 2 additional Stats to do comparable damage so they have to give up all the defensive stats.
And again There is more damage mitigation in game one every single class than there is for Condi so.
And Cover Condies stop effective Cleansing from happening and with the amount of Condi spam and cover Condi spam the main damaging Condies are cleansed as easily as you try make it seem due to the cleansing mechanic, and even if you do get the damaging Condies off they will be reapplied again and no more cleanse lulz.
And why is it allowed for classes/builds to be able to Completely make power damage useless through heals? You make perfectly clear that it’s fine that Condies can’t be completely cleanses and should be able to Burst through cleanses and kill the defender, but whenever I ask this question to fail to address it.
Once again the bias is showing.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
Are you reading the same posts I am. I am pretty darn sure that there is a paragraph on Condition cleansing in his post.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Do you listen to yourself?
Your posts are riddled with hypocrisy. Not to mention you are the minority in this thread, with all of your “points” being countered at every turn with logic and reasoning – something your posts lack. I’ll answer you this last time, but I’m sure its falling on deaf ears.
-I didn’t ask if your non-soldier’s warrior is effective. I said that you’re not going to be effective in Soldiers, so…not sure why you felt the need to include that.
-Yes, its incredibly unfair that one tanky stat combo renders someone relatively useless, while another tanky stat combo over performs. This is simple logic, like…really simple.
-If a condition build is forced to use less tanky stats – it will be in the same boat in terms of survivability as its power counterparts currently are – they don’t seem to get destroyed so easily, that’s probably just you?
-If a condition build did less damage while retaining its current tank stats and survivability – it wouldn’t be “destroyed” any more than it currently is damaged by power builds right now…
How is this guy just not getting this??
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Lag is immaterial. if I get lag I can just as easily die to a power attack i did not dodge. You are really stretching here.
This build is a thief build and has plenty of condition cleanses. Used properly virtually all condition builds are neutralized.
It has plenty of conditions cleanses, two on the elite, three on SOA , PR cleaning 4 every 16 seconds, EA cleansing on dodge UC cleansing on dodge Withdraw cleansing up to 6 every 14.5 seconds. RFI up to two and haste another. On staff Generoisty and Purity both cleanse.
He easily runs at 20 plus stacks might which lasts him through a good deal of time while in staff. Running close to 3k steady power with 200 percent crit rate deals plenty of damage. Spam this guys vaults evades against a DB thiefs attacks and you will win everytime as YOUR evades clean as fast as he can apply. Staff aginst mesmers is very effective and again the volume of cleanses added to the outright dodges neutralizes a great chunk of their damage.
Contrary to the claims of some , due to the fact the thief has so many targetted cleanses , you are not “just clearing cover conditions”. if you cleanse in proper order cover conditions can be stripped away via UC, Withdraw and RFI.
While in staff, blinds and evades allow a good deal of outright avoidance of conditions even as your attacks are cleansing 2 every 10 seconds.
This “you can not trait to clear anough conditions” does not wash with me. In fact while I started with this template for this theif specifically to deal with condition builds, I have since removed some of the same because I found I did not need them all.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Do you listen to yourself?
Your posts are riddled with hypocrisy. Not to mention you are the minority in this thread, with all of your “points” being countered at every turn with logic and reasoning – something your posts lack. I’ll answer you this last time, but I’m sure its falling on deaf ears.
-I didn’t ask if your non-soldier’s warrior is effective. I said that you’re not going to be effective in Soldiers, so…not sure why you felt the need to include that.
-Yes, its incredibly unfair that one tanky stat combo renders someone relatively useless, while another tanky stat combo over performs. This is simple logic, like…really simple.
-If a condition build is forced to use less tanky stats – it will be in the same boat in terms of survivability as its power counterparts currently are – they don’t seem to get destroyed so easily, that’s probably just you?
-If a condition build did less damage while retaining its current tank stats and survivability – it wouldn’t be “destroyed” any more than it currently is damaged by power builds right now…
How is this guy just not getting this??
I have given multiple builds that can deal specifically with condition builds. One a warrior with 3k armor and 26 health and just now a thief. You can pretend the builds do not exist but they do. As stated before they only a handful of indiviodual skills in WvW that might be overtuned. This is not a condition meta.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Lag is immaterial. if I get lag I can just as easily die to a power attack i did not dodge. You are really stretching here.
This build is a thief build and has plenty of condition cleanses. Used properly virtually all condition builds are neutralized.
It has plenty of conditions cleanses, two on the elite, three on SOA , PR cleaning 4 every 16 seconds, EA cleansing on dodge UC cleansing on dodge Withdraw cleansing up to 6 every 14.5 seconds. RFI up to two and haste another. On staff Generoisty and Purity both cleanse.
He easily runs at 20 plus stacks might which lasts him through a good deal of time while in staff. Running close to 3k steady power with 200 percent crit rate deals plenty of damage. Spam this guys vaults evades against a DB thiefs attacks and you will win everytime as YOUR evades clean as fast as he can apply. Staff aginst mesmers is very effective and again the volume of cleanses added to the outright dodges neutralizes a great chunk of their damage.
Contrary to the claims of some , due to the fact the thief has so many targetted cleanses , you are not “just clearing cover conditions”. if you cleanse in proper order cover conditions can be stripped away via UC, Withdraw and RFI.
While in staff, blinds and evades allow a good deal of outright avoidance of conditions even as your attacks are cleansing 2 every 10 seconds.
This “you can not trait to clear anough conditions” does not wash with me.
Oh nooooo one class can cleanse semi effectively, that’s called the exception not the rule lulz.
also you may need to revisit the post you quoted me in lulz saying never mentioned cleanses as if they don’t exist I made it easy to see the part you omitted to acknowledge. Lulz
And one more time show me a Full Soldiers War, Mesmer, Necro due the same amount of Burst and sustained Damage as a Full Dire War, Mesmer, Or Necro. Lulz
And that build would die instantly to any power build easily since it is solely designed Cleansing Condis. And you have to use 3 stats to output comparable damage vs Condis only using 1 lulz.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Lag is immaterial. if I get lag I can just as easily die to a power attack i did not dodge. You are really stretching here.
This build is a thief build and has plenty of condition cleanses. Used properly virtually all condition builds are neutralized.
It has plenty of conditions cleanses, two on the elite, three on SOA , PR cleaning 4 every 16 seconds, EA cleansing on dodge UC cleansing on dodge Withdraw cleansing up to 6 every 14.5 seconds. RFI up to two and haste another. On staff Generoisty and Purity both cleanse.
He easily runs at 20 plus stacks might which lasts him through a good deal of time while in staff. Running close to 3k steady power with 200 percent crit rate deals plenty of damage. Spam this guys vaults evades against a DB thiefs attacks and you will win everytime as YOUR evades clean as fast as he can apply. Staff aginst mesmers is very effective and again the volume of cleanses added to the outright dodges neutralizes a great chunk of their damage.
Contrary to the claims of some , due to the fact the thief has so many targetted cleanses , you are not “just clearing cover conditions”. if you cleanse in proper order cover conditions can be stripped away via UC, Withdraw and RFI.
While in staff, blinds and evades allow a good deal of outright avoidance of conditions even as your attacks are cleansing 2 every 10 seconds.
This “you can not trait to clear anough conditions” does not wash with me.
Oh nooooo one class can cleanse semi effectively, that’s called the exception not the rule lulz.
also you may need to revisit the post you quoted me in lulz saying never mentioned cleanses as if they don’t exist I made it easy to see the part you omitted to acknowledge. Lulz
And one more time show me a Full Soldiers War, Mesmer, Necro due the same amount of Burst and sustained Damage as a Full Dire War, Mesmer, Or Necro. Lulz
And that build would die instantly to any power build easily since it is solely designed Cleansing Condis. And you have to use 3 stats to output comparable damage vs Condis only using 1 lulz.
It now up to TWO classes as i have already linked my warrior who is also reistant to conditions being able to apply resistance at will.
I couold not care less about “having to trait 3 stats” as that Thief build will best virtsually every condition build he meets.
You can also trait a Necormancer to be highly resistant to Conditions using Condition transfers, minions and the trait Neromantic Corrution> this traits allows each minion to peel one condition off you every 10 seconds. The more minions the more cleansing.
I do not play other builds as much but have met in WvW mesmers that were able to be very resistant to conditions. I will let them speak to how this done.
It not just ONE class.
Added to that your mention of a power build destroying said thief is immaterial I should NOT expect to perfrom equally as well against every build with one build. It is designed to face condition builds, the same peopel claim are rampant and that no one can deal with.
I am willing to accept it would fare less poorly against a power build. I do not run to the boards and whine when a power build destroys it like people do when they are bested by a condition build.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Lag is immaterial. if I get lag I can just as easily die to a power attack i did not dodge. You are really stretching here.
This build is a thief build and has plenty of condition cleanses. Used properly virtually all condition builds are neutralized.
It has plenty of conditions cleanses, two on the elite, three on SOA , PR cleaning 4 every 16 seconds, EA cleansing on dodge UC cleansing on dodge Withdraw cleansing up to 6 every 14.5 seconds. RFI up to two and haste another. On staff Generoisty and Purity both cleanse.
He easily runs at 20 plus stacks might which lasts him through a good deal of time while in staff. Running close to 3k steady power with 200 percent crit rate deals plenty of damage. Spam this guys vaults evades against a DB thiefs attacks and you will win everytime as YOUR evades clean as fast as he can apply. Staff aginst mesmers is very effective and again the volume of cleanses added to the outright dodges neutralizes a great chunk of their damage.
Contrary to the claims of some , due to the fact the thief has so many targetted cleanses , you are not “just clearing cover conditions”. if you cleanse in proper order cover conditions can be stripped away via UC, Withdraw and RFI.
While in staff, blinds and evades allow a good deal of outright avoidance of conditions even as your attacks are cleansing 2 every 10 seconds.
This “you can not trait to clear anough conditions” does not wash with me.
Oh nooooo one class can cleanse semi effectively, that’s called the exception not the rule lulz.
also you may need to revisit the post you quoted me in lulz saying never mentioned cleanses as if they don’t exist I made it easy to see the part you omitted to acknowledge. Lulz
And one more time show me a Full Soldiers War, Mesmer, Necro due the same amount of Burst and sustained Damage as a Full Dire War, Mesmer, Or Necro. Lulz
And that build would die instantly to any power build easily since it is solely designed Cleansing Condis. And you have to use 3 stats to output comparable damage vs Condis only using 1 lulz.
It now up to TWO classes as i have already linked my warrior who is also reistant to conditions being able to apply resistance at will.
I couold not care less about “having to trait 3 stats” as that Thief build will best virtsually every condition build he meets.
You can also trait a Necormancer to be highly resistant to Conditions using Condition transfers, minions and the trait Neromantic Corrution> this traits allows each minion to peel one condition off you every 10 seconds. The more minions the more cleansing.
I do not play other builds as much but have met in WvW mesmers that were able to be very resistant to conditions. I will let them speak to how this done.
It not just ONE class.
Who cares if it can best any Condi build since you kitten it from dealing with any power builds lulz.
Still avoiding he questions I put to you.
Show that power is just as effective as Condi using Full Soldiers vs Full Dire prove that it can deal the same Burst damage and sustained damage. It’s the only fair measurement since they have the exact same stat pool.
And you act like Protection, Regen, Weakness , Frost Aura, Bulwark Gyro, Armor, Rite of the Great Dwarf, Invulns, and Pseudo invulns don’t exist. Lulz
So again show that the same stats are equally effective in Burst and sustained damage.
Or how about why one stats say doesn’t have to give any sacrifices defenses to reach maximum damage when another stat does to do comparable damage?
And you’re still avoiding most of my iPhone 5s answered and remodeled every single one you try to make it quite funny to be honest.
And did you go back and read those two paragraphs I wrote about consequences that I clearly Didn’t write that you totally didn’t directly quote lulz.
Here’s a TL;DR to assist with a trend I noticed here
Prove power is just as effective as Condi using full Soldiers and Dire on the same class
Why does 1 get to do max damage without sacrificing Any Survivability but the other need 3 offensive stats to do comparable damage
And building solely to cleanse Condis and nothing else just makes for a highly ineffective build in every situation except against Condi. Since you know we are talking about actual effective builds here
And again there’s more source that make Power damage negligible vs Condi damage yet Condi doesn’t have any Passive damage mitigations only active.
Last but not least
Lulz
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
Lag is immaterial. if I get lag I can just as easily die to a power attack i did not dodge. You are really stretching here.
This build is a thief build and has plenty of condition cleanses. Used properly virtually all condition builds are neutralized.
It has plenty of conditions cleanses, two on the elite, three on SOA , PR cleaning 4 every 16 seconds, EA cleansing on dodge UC cleansing on dodge Withdraw cleansing up to 6 every 14.5 seconds. RFI up to two and haste another. On staff Generoisty and Purity both cleanse.
He easily runs at 20 plus stacks might which lasts him through a good deal of time while in staff. Running close to 3k steady power with 200 percent crit rate deals plenty of damage. Spam this guys vaults evades against a DB thiefs attacks and you will win everytime as YOUR evades clean as fast as he can apply. Staff aginst mesmers is very effective and again the volume of cleanses added to the outright dodges neutralizes a great chunk of their damage.
Contrary to the claims of some , due to the fact the thief has so many targetted cleanses , you are not “just clearing cover conditions”. if you cleanse in proper order cover conditions can be stripped away via UC, Withdraw and RFI.
While in staff, blinds and evades allow a good deal of outright avoidance of conditions even as your attacks are cleansing 2 every 10 seconds.
This “you can not trait to clear anough conditions” does not wash with me.
Oh nooooo one class can cleanse semi effectively, that’s called the exception not the rule lulz.
also you may need to revisit the post you quoted me in lulz saying never mentioned cleanses as if they don’t exist I made it easy to see the part you omitted to acknowledge. Lulz
And one more time show me a Full Soldiers War, Mesmer, Necro due the same amount of Burst and sustained Damage as a Full Dire War, Mesmer, Or Necro. Lulz
And that build would die instantly to any power build easily since it is solely designed Cleansing Condis. And you have to use 3 stats to output comparable damage vs Condis only using 1 lulz.
It now up to TWO classes as i have already linked my warrior who is also reistant to conditions being able to apply resistance at will.
I couold not care less about “having to trait 3 stats” as that Thief build will best virtsually every condition build he meets.
You can also trait a Necormancer to be highly resistant to Conditions using Condition transfers, minions and the trait Neromantic Corrution> this traits allows each minion to peel one condition off you every 10 seconds. The more minions the more cleansing.
I do not play other builds as much but have met in WvW mesmers that were able to be very resistant to conditions. I will let them speak to how this done.
It not just ONE class.
Who cares if it can best any Condi build since you kitten it from dealing with any power builds lulz.
Still avoiding he questions I put to you.
Show that power is just as effective as Condi using Full Soldiers vs Full Dire prove that it can deal the same Burst damage and sustained damage. It’s the only fair measurement since they have the exact same stat pool.
And you act like Protection, Regen, Weakness , Frost Aura, Bulwark Gyro, Armor, Rite of the Great Dwarf, Invulns, and Pseudo invulns don’t exist. Lulz
So again show that the same stats are equally effective in Burst and sustained damage.
Or how about why one stats say doesn’t have to give any sacrifices defenses to reach maximum damage when another stat does to do comparable damage?
And you’re still avoiding most of my iPhone 5s answered and remodeled every single one you try to make it quite funny to be honest.
And did you go back and read those two paragraphs I wrote about consequences that I clearly Didn’t write that you totally didn’t directly quote lulz.
Here’s a TL;DR to assist with a trend I noticed hereProve power is just as effective as Condi using full Soldiers and Dire on the same class
Why does 1 get to do max damage without sacrificing Any Survivability but the other need 3 offensive stats to do comparable damage
And building solely to cleanse Condis and nothing else just makes for a highly ineffective build in every situation except against Condi. Since you know we are talking about actual effective builds here
And again there’s more source that make Power damage negligible vs Condi damage yet Condi doesn’t have any Passive damage mitigations only active.
Last but not least
Lulz
I never stated a soldiers build was just as effective as a condition build in dire. Please point to where i made that statement.
there NOTHING I have to prove.
I have linked to my warrior build with 26k health and ~3k armor. he is very effective against both Power and condition builds. I have given his numbers several times over.
Go and play the build. I should not have to hold your hand and lead you along.
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
snip
Snip
Oh nooooo one class can cleanse semi effectively, that’s called the exception not the rule lulz.
also you may need to revisit the post you quoted me in lulz saying never mentioned cleanses as if they don’t exist I made it easy to see the part you omitted to acknowledge. Lulz
And one more time show me a Full Soldiers War, Mesmer, Necro due the same amount of Burst and sustained Damage as a Full Dire War, Mesmer, Or Necro. Lulz
And that build would die instantly to any power build easily since it is solely designed Cleansing Condis. And you have to use 3 stats to output comparable damage vs Condis only using 1 lulz.
It now up to TWO classes as i have already linked my warrior who is also reistant to conditions being able to apply resistance at will.
I couold not care less about “having to trait 3 stats” as that Thief build will best virtsually every condition build he meets.
You can also trait a Necormancer to be highly resistant to Conditions using Condition transfers, minions and the trait Neromantic Corrution> this traits allows each minion to peel one condition off you every 10 seconds. The more minions the more cleansing.
I do not play other builds as much but have met in WvW mesmers that were able to be very resistant to conditions. I will let them speak to how this done.
It not just ONE class.
Who cares if it can best any Condi build since you kitten it from dealing with any power builds lulz.
Still avoiding he questions I put to you.
Show that power is just as effective as Condi using Full Soldiers vs Full Dire prove that it can deal the same Burst damage and sustained damage. It’s the only fair measurement since they have the exact same stat pool.
And you act like Protection, Regen, Weakness , Frost Aura, Bulwark Gyro, Armor, Rite of the Great Dwarf, Invulns, and Pseudo invulns don’t exist. Lulz
So again show that the same stats are equally effective in Burst and sustained damage.
Or how about why one stats say doesn’t have to give any sacrifices defenses to reach maximum damage when another stat does to do comparable damage?
And you’re still avoiding most of my iPhone 5s answered and remodeled every single one you try to make it quite funny to be honest.
And did you go back and read those two paragraphs I wrote about consequences that I clearly Didn’t write that you totally didn’t directly quote lulz.
Here’s a TL;DR to assist with a trend I noticed hereProve power is just as effective as Condi using full Soldiers and Dire on the same class
Why does 1 get to do max damage without sacrificing Any Survivability but the other need 3 offensive stats to do comparable damage
And building solely to cleanse Condis and nothing else just makes for a highly ineffective build in every situation except against Condi. Since you know we are talking about actual effective builds here
And again there’s more source that make Power damage negligible vs Condi damage yet Condi doesn’t have any Passive damage mitigations only active.
Last but not least
LulzI never stated a soldiers build was just as effective as a condition build in dire. Please point to where i made that statement.
there NOTHING I have to prove.
I have linked to my warrior build with 26k health and ~3k armor. he is very effective against both Power and condition builds. I have given his numbers several times over.
Go and play the build. I should not have to hold your hand and lead you along.
One of the main arguments is why does one build have to sacrifice almost every defensive stat and use 3 offensive stats to make comparable damage while one can Max both Damage and Defense.
And yeah cherry pick the war lulz the class with the Highest Base Armor and highest Base HP lulz of course that class can take less defensive stats than any other. Now look at a Full Dire Warrior let’s see here 29.5k HP 3576 Armor 2084 Condi Damage maxed Defenses and Damage, the power build you tote pales in efficiency. And without sacrificing anything I gained 4.5k hp and 500 armor while maxing out Condi damage. Zero sacrifices. While your build has to sacrifice crit chance and crit damage as well as power, still the overall worse and my builder which makes No sacrifice
And how about any of my other points or are you trying to evade those like a D/D DB spam Thief?
This is too easy, watch out the bias is still showing.
(edited by Sly.9518)
Lets see you keep bringing things liek regn and portection and bulwark gyro into the equation as if the like did not exist elsewhere.
Just some of the engineer traits.
Regen and healing. They are not for power only. They regen health lost to conditions as well. Purge Gyro, removes conditions so as to prevent damage just as Bulward Gyro does fgor power. transmute converts boons to conditions. inversion enzyme converts conditions to boons. Alcemical tinctures removes conditions. Mecha legs decreases condtion durations. Adaptive armor decreases condition damage 20 percent.
Why no mention of these when you bring in bulwark gyro?
lets see…first the thief was just an exception, now the warrior cherry picked. you really want me to give you all those other builds that can do the same?
have you ever played a necro? Use your head you can do much the same with them if you wish.
I also posted some time back a theif build in sentenils. Plenty of damage. No a power thief could not rip him apart (unless you acede the smae power thief can rip a person in dire apart.) and yes he could churn out damage that would destroy a thief in zerker.
Why did i stop playing him? I did not need all the sustain. Thief has dodges and stealth. they do not need to have all that armor. Just because he thief does not need it does not mean he can not have it.
Get away from the meta site and you might get somewhere.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Can someone stroke out from nerd rage? This thread may answer that question…
Lets see you keep bringing things liek regn and portection and bulwark gyro into the equation as if the like did not exist elsewhere.
Just some of the engineer traits.
Regen and healing. They are not for power only. They regen health lost to conditions as well. Purge Gyro, removes conditions so as to prevent damage just as Bulward Gyro does fgor power. transmute converts boons to conditions. inversion enzyme converts conditions to boons. Alcemical tinctures removes conditions. Mecha legs decreases condtion durations. Adaptive armor decreases condition damage 20 percent.
Why no mention of these when you bring in bulwark gyro?
Lets see you keep bringing things liek regn and portection and bulwark gyro into the equation as if the like did not exist elsewhere.
Just some of the engineer traits.
Regen and healing. They are not for power only. They regen health lost to conditions as well. Purge Gyro, removes conditions so as to prevent damage just as Bulward Gyro does fgor power. transmute converts boons to conditions. inversion enzyme converts conditions to boons. Alcemical tinctures removes conditions. Mecha legs decreases condtion durations. Adaptive armor decreases condition damage 20 percent.
Why no mention of these when you bring in bulwark gyro?
Already did quite a few posts back, and Condis to Boons is a cleanse lulz which I already mentioned lulz, you just failed to read(quite a recurring event here) , as shown a couple posts back. Lulz
And cute your trying to use my argument against me go refer to my previous posts about why do you act like every non Condi damage mitigation in game doesn’t exist( there are far more and they all stack btws) Lulz
And again Why does Power have to make Tons of sacrifices to survivability to do comparable Damage? Condi doesn’t have to make any to maximize damage. Lulz prolly gonna attempt to evade this question yet again.
Oh nooooo only one Condi damage mitigation trait on a single, that actually mitigates a small percentage of damage compared to all the power damage mitigation traits noooooooo lulz
again
Lulz
Once again you pretend cleanses do not exist.
once again you are pretending cleanses are effective agaisnt the condi spam and the lag doesn’t exists. Kindly stop defending something all the community is telling you here and in reddit is utterly broken.
Luckily balance patch is coming soon and i hope Anet has taken seriously the condi problem and addressed it properly. Hopefully nerfing the dps they can output overtime and the broken stat sets.
You mean like every balance patch before? NOT ENOUGH CONDI -> MORE BUFF!
What’s WvW? Is that a dungeon?
(edited by ThunderPanda.1872)
25 vuln 41 bleed 38 other is like the norm now with all the turbomancers in this mag matchup. It’s so dumb to be able to stack that high.
I think TL was running like 10 necros, a dh, and a mesmer the other day vs a mag ktrain. lol. skill.
They should stop player dropping load of condy and leaving a distance out of combat just to heal full hp. Then return to the fight while the player that he is still fighting has condition duration that he cant remove. Theifs tend to do that, drop a trap and 16 sec poison and then leaving in a distance to heal out of combat. And returning the the fight with full hp.
Current WvW state:
Marauder DH is broken because of huge discrepancy between block uptime and damage.
Marauder Warrior is broken because of huge discrepancy between damage negation and damage.
D/D Condi Thief is broken because of huge discrepancy between evade uptime and damage.
Dire Reaper is broken because of huge discrepancy between susatain and burst capability (a condi bunker that can burst like a full zerker (and spread that kitten to 5 other targets)).
Bunker Druid is broken because of huge discrepancy between mobility and damage (the pet is the problem).
Condi Mesmer (even full viper – I play one from time to time) is broken because of huge discrepancy between mobility, ridiculously low cooldowns (alacrity uptime) and design (dishes out conditions that punish movement and skill activation). Condi Rev shows how balancing should work as he overloads you with torment but is full melee and so can be fought (almost) standing still.
Most of these issues are fixed in sPvP (thief endurance gain nerfed hard, Deadly Chill works different, no tanky amulets, no Durability Rune, no burst sigils…).
Condis are not the problem. Condis are just a part of the bigger problem of PvE balancing in WvW.
(edited by KrHome.1920)
Current WvW state:
Marauder DH is broken because of huge discrepancy between block uptime and damage.
Marauder Warrior is broken because of huge discrepancy between damage negation and damage.
D/D Condi Thief is broken because of huge discrepancy between evade uptime and damage.
Dire Reaper is broken because of huge discrepancy between susatain and burst capability (a condi bunker that can burst like a full zerker (and spread that kitten to 5 other targets)).
Bunker Druid is broken because of huge discrepancy between mobility and damage (the pet is the problem).
Condi Mesmer (even full viper – I play one from time to time) is broken because of huge discrepancy between mobility, ridiculously low cooldowns (alacrity uptime) and design (dishes out conditions that punish movement and skill activation). Condi Rev shows how balancing should work as he overloads you with torment but is full melee and so can be fought (almost) standing still.
Most of these issues are fixed in sPvP (thief endurance gain nerfed hard, Deadly Chill works different, no tanky amulets, no Durability Rune, no burst sigils…).
Condis are not the problem. Condis are just a part of the bigger problem of PvE balancing in WvW.
Hey, someone’s not an idiot!
They HAVE to be able to dish out conditions faster then another can cleanse or the condition build will be useless. Why do people persist in the inane argument that you have to keep up to condition applications with cleanses?
If any build is able to overcome even heaviest defenses 1v1, then said build should be extremely glassy to compensate it. So, tell us, how glassy typical yolo trailblazer is.
Do you listen to yourself?
Your posts are riddled with hypocrisy. Not to mention you are the minority in this thread, with all of your “points” being countered at every turn with logic and reasoning – something your posts lack. I’ll answer you this last time, but I’m sure its falling on deaf ears.
-I didn’t ask if your non-soldier’s warrior is effective. I said that you’re not going to be effective in Soldiers, so…not sure why you felt the need to include that.
-Yes, its incredibly unfair that one tanky stat combo renders someone relatively useless, while another tanky stat combo over performs. This is simple logic, like…really simple.
-If a condition build is forced to use less tanky stats – it will be in the same boat in terms of survivability as its power counterparts currently are – they don’t seem to get destroyed so easily, that’s probably just you?
-If a condition build did less damage while retaining its current tank stats and survivability – it wouldn’t be “destroyed” any more than it currently is damaged by power builds right now…
How is this guy just not getting this??
How is this guy not getting it? really? I am not getting your point because you do not have one no matter how many times you and the tag team repeats it. I could not care less what people on Reddit are saiyng or what “the majority in the thread” are saying.
I play the same game you do and do not have the issues with condiions you seem o have. I have no problems dealing with persons In DIRE. I am able to muster enough cleanses to ensure matches are competitive. I have given links to builds persons in this thread "do not exist’ that have excellent cleanses and or resistance uptime and that can deal with virtually every condition build and have got replies that this “cherry picking” or even “well it would not survive against a power build”. (which begs the question if it will not survive against a power build then does it not follow using the same inane reasoning with condition , that it power builds that are op".)
The problem here is there too many persons who are fixated on power builds that can not handle the fact that a fight does not last more then 20 seconds and can not handle the fact that there builds designed to counter the extremes of damage that a power build can dish out. Thats the sum total of it when someone claims "my bleed of LB5 can dish out 210000 damage’. There just too many on this board who feel if a meta build fails in WvW it must mean that the guy that faced them uses an OP build.
I have stated there a number of skills on the Condition side that are overtuned and that these can be addressed on a 1 for one basis just as is done with power. That hardly means there a condition meta and that hardly means "there no way to deal with condition Spam’.
If you have problems with conditions learn to deal with it, just as people have to learn to deal with the fact that a Thief will have greater mobility, a warrior greater sustain and a power build able to dish out 15k plus damage in a single attack. The die and whine mentality grows tiresome.
I am hardly an elite player. I do not have the reflexes the younger crowd to and did not grow up on gaming platforms yet find myself able to deal with the bulk of condition builds by my design choices. Apparently some can’t and those some want to pretend there no options. I am not buying it no matter how many whine about it just as I am not buying a Big Mac because everyone else eats there.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
They HAVE to be able to dish out conditions faster then another can cleanse or the condition build will be useless. Why do people persist in the inane argument that you have to keep up to condition applications with cleanses?
If any build is able to overcome even heaviest defenses 1v1, then said build should be extremely glassy to compensate it. So, tell us, how glassy typical yolo trailblazer is.
No , it should not. Why “should it”? Where does that rule come from.? If i can kill that one build with another then that all that is needed. There are other things that can be used against said build such as mobility stealth and kiting which works well against the necro in dire OR condition builds for which TB is no better then Valkyrie.
Condition users need time so as to allow conditions to work and covers to be stacked. In order to buy that time against all that damage a power user can dish out, they need heavier armor. If this not possible then order to work a condition user will have to do even more damage in a shorter period of time and become yet burstier and I have the feeling the same complaining now about dire will be complaining even more were THAT to happen.
Why this fixation on TB? It has been established that a power build can take out most in Soldiers armor before the opposite can be done and now they suddenly have issues with someone in TB?
If Soldiers does not have enough damage to compete with a build speccing more ferocity and Crit then it follows if you bring cleanses to the table neither will TB. Cleanse have a huge impact on damage done. That touted “21000 damage from my LB5” made by another can be cleansed so as to do 99 percent less damage and you are going to have another cleanse ready before the warrior Lb5 comes off cooldown.
Too many here wheedle and whine because they have to give up a precious skill so as to take a cleanse as witnessed in a response above where I gave a build that could peel of Conditions rapidly and got a "but a power build will kill it " response. This reminds me very much of certain classes whining about stealth and when pointed out they have reveals indicating “they not worth taking in place of another utility”
Take more cleanses. Limit the damage output of the dire build to lower levels using the same and take it out just as you do someone in soldiers. Your cleanses are your armor when it comes to conditions . Just as 3400 armor is not going to keep you impervious from all power attacks (see soldiers) your cleanses are not going to keep you immune from all conditions and just as one should not whine if they take 12k in damage from a single attack because they are in armor of 2118, they should not whine if they only take two cleanses and figure it should be enough.
Finally , just as I can dodge or block that incoming 10k unload , you can do the same for Condition attacks bringing the same payload of potential damage.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Finally , just as I can dodge or block that incoming 10k unload , you can do the same for Condition attacks bringing the same payload of potential damage.
For the most part, the condi builds people complain about are NOT as easy to block as power builds. Condi mesmer is constantly applying condi. Condi thief is spamming condi while evading. Condi reaper is getting ‘free’ condi spam with aoe shouts that are fairly difficult to avoid.
Nerf Deathly Chill, Nerf thief endurance BS.
Exactly this. Taking care of these two issues will go a long way.
Something I think a lot of people forget is the idea of reaction time. If I hit a burst on an enemy power thief that’s on half health on my power build, he’s dead. Instantly. On my condi builds, however, a comparable instant spike with similar damage numbers will take a few seconds to kill that same enemy, and if he hasn’t wasted cooldowns he has shadowstep and signet of agility that in combination with dash can entirely negate the damage, forcing me to spike as many as three times to down the same enemy my power build would have done instantly.
Now, assuming I’m on my trailblazer build this is fine as I can take a burst and heal while he kites to cleanse. My carrion build, however, is going to get destroyed by that power thief before I get to the second or third condi cleanse as I take the same damage from his attacks as a zerker thief but my damage is spread out over time and has more counters, putting less pressure on him.
This is what confuses me when people say that zerker needs more stats to do the same damage; that ‘extra’ toughness and vit are not a luxury on top, they are often required to win since the condi build does not apply damage instantly like the power build does. The cases where you have a viper or carrion build overperforming is usually not due to the strength of condi, but the level of sustain that makes toughness unnecessary which allows the build to take power as well.
Lastly, there are relatively few condi skills that are inherently broken by themselves (choking gas with 1s ICD and reaper’s bleed on chill trait are the two obvious ones imo), but rather are broken either because of AoE or because of the active sustain of the build itself. So, fix this and the sustain of certain classes and the problem resolves itself.
Tldr; Condi is susceptible to the same types of active mitigation as power (block, heal, evade), and is additionally countered by good levels of cleanse and resistance in addition to it being a dot playstyle, in exchange for bypassing toughness. If you want to balance it you need to look at certain individual skills that are overperforming and sustain across the board, not condi damage or equipment combos themselves.
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