Condis & Bunks Have Ruined Small Group Play

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Posted by: zen.6091

zen.6091

About the 100th thread on this topic, but whatever, here’s another since the devs don’t seem to have even a passing interest in it.

Roaming and small groups play a huge role in WvW on every tier. On some tiers, it’s all that really exist outside maybe a few hours where there’s larger zergs running around.

It’s been pretty much completely ruined by the power creep in condis and bunk play in general. Perplexity runes, the dire stat, tormenting, a food that more than doubles a stat (+40% condi duration). Not to even mention all the other garbage, PvE only condi upgrade components that don’t even change anything in PvE. They only make WvW worse.

Then you have the flip side of the coin with power (well, vaguely) bunk builds that are almost entirely built for counter-condi with -condi duration runes and food, plus max armor / vitality to laugh at the few players still stupid enough to run burst power builds. These kinds of builds are only a small degree worse than condi bunks because they are not dangerous, only annoying and boring.

This is not to argue the complete opposite with everyone running around with instagib gank builds. There should be a happy balance somewhere between. Some very simple ideas:

-Get rid of the +40% food, or max it at 10%
-Change the dire stat
-Hard cap on condi damage as a baseline for balancing
-Rethink the crit damage nerf

Even an acknowledgment that condis are out of control would be a start.

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Posted by: Zord.6130

Zord.6130

I don’t know, the only thing that kills me now are zerk rangers or the occasional thief.
Maybe I’m too clever to just laugh at PU mesmers or Condi thieves, and then run away?

Powerpuff Girls [PPG]
Trixxi Is Cute – Purple Fhaz: your daily roamer

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

About the 100th thread on this topic, but whatever, here’s another since the devs don’t seem to have even a passing interest in it.

Roaming and small groups play a huge role in WvW on every tier. On some tiers, it’s all that really exist outside maybe a few hours where there’s larger zergs running around.

It’s been pretty much completely ruined by the power creep in condis and bunk play in general. Perplexity runes, the dire stat, tormenting, a food that more than doubles a stat (+40% condi duration). Not to even mention all the other garbage, PvE only condi upgrade components that don’t even change anything in PvE. They only make WvW worse.

Then you have the flip side of the coin with power (well, vaguely) bunk builds that are almost entirely built for counter-condi with -condi duration runes and food, plus max armor / vitality to laugh at the few players still stupid enough to run burst power builds. These kinds of builds are only a small degree worse than condi bunks because they are not dangerous, only annoying and boring.

This is not to argue the complete opposite with everyone running around with instagib gank builds. There should be a happy balance somewhere between. Some very simple ideas:

-Get rid of the +40% food, or max it at 10%
-Change the dire stat
-Hard cap on condi damage as a baseline for balancing
-Rethink the crit damage nerf

Even an acknowledgment that condis are out of control would be a start.

So let me get this straight. Your exclaiming that they should make changes based on your personal opinion. And because a few other have mentioned it, that it is a definitive fact? So much so, that they are wrong for not having made the changes you want?

Perhaps it is because they reasonably feel your demand are unreasonable and they have much larger amount of feed back that counters yours.

For example, you claim conditions are out of control, and offer no evidence or mathematical fact to support it. Yet other threads have broken down the damage out put and math of various builds, and presented reasonable information in many many many post, to contradict your claims.

It seems to me, your first problem, i that you speak in definitive in your post, and approach the conversation as if your correct in an absolute manner. Which goes contradictory to both a honest discussion, as well as more reasonable facts presented by your opposition.

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Posted by: Skeletor.9360

Skeletor.9360

Just make up some kitten and call it statistics….They won’t verify them and you’ll be 100% correct I am sure. So where are these threads he mentions…seems to be a non-honest response…

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Posted by: zen.6091

zen.6091

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Posted by: mamatokun.4287

mamatokun.4287

i heard this item can counter condi.. BLACK KING BAR.. ‘’ohhh ohhhhhh’’

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Posted by: mango.9267

mango.9267

Bunker builds are fine. You trade significant dps for increased survivability.

Condi builds are more problematic because you don’t really trade survivability for dps. With dire gear, you pretty much get a low-risk high-reward build. And given the nature of condi application and duration, the playstyle is often very passive.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Anet balances around small-man WvW play. In zergs, condi builds are underpowered. In a legitimate 5v5 death match, power builds are better.

Second Child

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Posted by: Alchymista.8192

Alchymista.8192

he is just crying because someone with condi build farmed him.. thats all

Seafarer Never Rest

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Posted by: Coldtart.4785

Coldtart.4785

Given how frequently I’ve seen hilariously bad maths thrown around in this forum I’m going to assume any ‘damage out put and math of various builds’ is invalid unless proven otherwise. Additionally the only numbers I have seen posted to this forum were of a warrior soloing GL in both zerker and rabid builds and taking only marginally longer (less than 10% longer than zerker) to kill it with rabid.

Condition damage is a failure of design. The main observation I’ve made regarding its effectiveness is that the rate of application versus the rate of removal is so much more important than any other factor that you could very nearly neglect all other factors.

The reason I made this conclusion can be seen in things like a recent duelling tournament won by a condi build along with my own experience in picking up a condi build and immediately being undefeatable to a skilled opponent. These observations come from the spvp ruleset, which is not as favourable to condi due to the lack of dire, perplexity or koi cakes. On the other hand, in large scale wvw and gvg combat, condi damage is completely useless. The main difference is that aoe condi clears allow each player to clear significantly more condis per minute than a lone player, while the condi damage is no more difficult to clear due to high intensity or high duration conditions being counted the same as low intensity or low duration conditions.

The reason why this application versus removal factor causes issues in small scale play is that it demands players to stack as many condi clears as they can so they can beat condi, but in doing so they lose out on important utility against enemy power builds. Another problem is defensive stats on gear. Toughness, vitality and healing power are all useful for mitigating burst and improving sustain against power builds, but are nearly useless against a condi build. Toughness does nothing at all, vitality provides a buffer that is only equivalent to one or two cleared conditions and healing power’s effect is diminished by the typical poison that viable condi builds carry.

All of this means that a player of a power build essentially has to decide if they want to be able to beat other power builds or condi builds, with the expectation that, in order to beat one, you give up the ability to beat the other. You could try to find a good mix and you may find that you can do well against both, but most likely only if they’re scrubs (betting on condi players being scrubs is often safer than the alternative, though).

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Posted by: zen.6091

zen.6091

he is just crying because someone with condi build farmed him.. thats all

Yes, I just started playing yesterday…or I’ve been posting in this forum for 2 years now mostly about roaming topics.

It’s not the wah wah, I got beat by condi factor anymore. As the above poster was starting to get into, the meta becoming so entrenched in condi and counter-condi has severely limited what kinds of builds you can run, and it’s boring.

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

There aren’t many condition builds in the NA TPVP, but that is because the teams are built to deal with them at a team level.

WvW players build for themselves at small scale, which is why this is an issue.

Conditions are the meta for solo roaming. Once you start to add more players who can cleanse for you, that changes dramatically.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

It’s more complex than that but I agree with the title of the thread. Aoe Limit, stacking immobilizes, crit nerf, really hurt the smaller groups and created this stupid stacking bunker zerg meta.

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Posted by: Reverence.6915

Reverence.6915

I’ve given up on the argument and am just gone full condi for my roaming characters. Nearly impossible to kill and dishes out insane damage. Only another condi user more skilled than me or caught me off guard kills me

Expac sucks for WvW players. Asura master race
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI

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Posted by: Arikyali.5804

Arikyali.5804

The OP does have a point. And put down your torches and pick forks.

It’s not helpful to ask for raw damage values – you can’t factor every single detail. You have crowd control, people dodging, ganks, tactical movement, food buffs, might stacking, boon steals…our knowledge of “what’s OP” has to come from first-person experience.

Condi damage doesn’t need to sacrifice survival. And it doesn’t rely on crit. If you focus direct damage, you either do steady damage and can’t spike, or you’re a glass cannon. If you focus Condi, you don’t sacrifice defense but still do steady damage. (or stack a lot of condi for a really strong spike, and still lose nothing to defense)

There is no backlash on going full dire. It’s very forgiving – maybe too forgiving. And for those that argue that bunker means you can’t insta-down someone…why does that matter? Just hold out a few extra seconds for someone to come to your aid.

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Posted by: McWolfy.5924

McWolfy.5924

I dont have any problem with thecurrent wvw meta. Zerker focus, tank melee, condi roamers.you just need to match your style withthe game form what you want. Dont be surprised you die if you play a zerker melee

WSR→Piken→Deso→Piken→FSP→Deso
Just the WvW
R3200+

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

I rather enjoy this mentality myself. It makes it very enjoyable when i walk away from the OPs corpse since i know how easy condition builds are to counter. Then their next thread is one claiming the professuon he got beat with is OP.

Sure condi builds are solid in 1v1. They are by no means a grunted win. Add a Seco d or third player in the mix and your condition build is neutered. It is kind of cute how posters here actually believe condition builds are actually OP though. Particularly when asked to prove it. You guys run from presenting facts like a cat runs from a bath. Perhaps you should shift your mentality from assumption based on limited experience into factual reality.

Alas, it is the forums, so assumptions, and claims based on a limited skill level will always trump reality in the thread makers eyes.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Bubi.7942

Bubi.7942

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

I rather enjoy this mentality myself. It makes it very enjoyable when i walk away from the OPs corpse since i know how easy condition builds are to counter. Then their next thread is one claiming the professuon he got beat with is OP.

Sure condi builds are solid in 1v1. They are by no means a grunted win. Add a Seco d or third player in the mix and your condition build is neutered. It is kind of cute how posters here actually believe condition builds are actually OP though. Particularly when asked to prove it. You guys run from presenting facts like a cat runs from a bath. Perhaps you should shift your mentality from assumption based on limited experience into factual reality.

Alas, it is the forums, so assumptions, and claims based on a limited skill level will always trump reality in the thread makers eyes.

Don’t be so grumpy because most condi builds are easy cheese mode,and you playing one feeling offended.It’s just the truth,apply condi’s..run around like a headless chicken and still win cus of high condi ticking while no need to even be close to your target.While double melee builds are relying on heavily telegraphed skills and the need to be in somebody’s face and actually have to make sure not to waste a skill.Limited skill level is needed for condi builds.

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Posted by: Razamatazz.9628

Razamatazz.9628

Paper is fine, Rock is OP. -Scissors

Cows go “MOO”, Dogs go “WOOF”, MMO players go “PvP is unbalanced”.

Those are just a couple of things I’ve come across in my time of gaming, I thought they were pretty amusing, just thought I’d bring them here real quick before I add my thoughts to the discussion. Also, please note I take no credit for either of those statements, all credit is due to whoever it is that came up with them.

That being said, I’ve found that, as others have stated, Condi builds have their upsides and downsides. While they are powerful in smaller group engagements they tend to scale poorly as the groups get larger. I’ve found the same with power based builds, while you get condi’d to death without much of a chance in smaller group engagements your effectiveness scales well as the group size increases. That extra damage you provide, on top of the others in that larger group makes the little bit of a difference to burst down those enemy groups. To me it’s been a trade off, do I want to be more effective in smaller or larger group settings? Personally I’ve been tinkering with gear and builds to find something that makes me effective in both, while still being able to survive you friggin thieves while trying to get to my group (Total L2P issue here, working on it by getting together with guildies who are great at thief and dueling them 1 on 1 to improve my skill and timing against them).

To me it seems to be a trade off, very similar to a rock/paper/scissors style of play. I would say enjoy the challenge of finding something that makes you viable in both types of play and then rely on your skill to make up the difference in small group play. I would devote my extra time to learning to counter those hellish condi builds rather than complaining to get them changed, it would likely be more effective, and you’ll probably have fun doing it. Who knows, you may even come up with that build that everyone copies and makes the condi roamers cry next. I mean isn’t that where most of these builds that are now “meta” got their start, as a counter to the previous meta, someone came up with a strong counter measure and once the previous meta was getting stomped everyone jumped onto the next one. It’s a never ending cycle, we just need to adapt, overcome, and improvise to stay competitive and effective in that cycle.

Lydeah – 80 Mesmer
Lorynne – 80 Guardian
[PB] – NSP

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Posted by: Avigrus.2871

Avigrus.2871

Like, everything is overpowered.

Just nerf it all except the class that i play.

80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)

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Posted by: EFWinters.5421

EFWinters.5421

Condi is only a problem in very small groups though; I have never seen it be used to any form of success in groups of 4-5 or more.

That being said, I would agree that it is far too easy to play when it comes to solo roaming and such. It’s not really rocket science that…

1, adding a new condition.
2, buffing existing conditions.
3, leaving condition removal the same

… will have bad results. ArenaNet should have picked two of those, not all three.

Human Guardian
Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Don’t be so grumpy because most condi builds are easy cheese mode,and you playing one feeling offended.It’s just the truth,apply condi’s..run around like a headless chicken and still win cus of high condi ticking while no need to even be close to your target.While double melee builds are relying on heavily telegraphed skills and the need to be in somebody’s face and actually have to make sure not to waste a skill.Limited skill level is needed for condi builds.

I actually find this post somewhat comical. I have a 80 of each profession, and they were all leveled almost exclusively in WvW with a little SPVP mixed in I literally run a power build with no focus on conditions in any of them. Yet I have little difficulty with condition builds in battle as a whole. Your attempts at backhanded insult seem to support my position, as you clearly chose to resort to those, over the option of discussing actual damage out put comparisons or builds and play skull to avoid heavy condition application skills.

If your having difficulty with condition builds, please feel free to PM me with the builds that are problematic for you. I would gladly discuss strategy and build adjustment with you in an effort to aid you in your specific areas of difficulty.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

Funny how there are concurrent threads complaining about thieves and condi bunkers when roaming.

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

The problem isn’t with the condi directly, it’s the stacking or durations.

When you get stuck on the ground by a group of 20 people and cannot even move for over 10 seconds then you know the game balance is broken. And I’m not talking about walls and such, all those are fine. It’s the immobilize condition stacking to maximum that is the problem.

And the worse thing is that it was fine before! Then an Anet dev decided it would be fun for immobilize to stack.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

The problem isn’t with the condi directly, it’s the stacking or durations.

When you get stuck on the ground by a group of 20 people and cannot even move for over 10 seconds then you know the game balance is broken. And I’m not talking about walls and such, all those are fine. It’s the immobilize condition stacking to maximum that is the problem.

And the worse thing is that it was fine before! Then an Anet dev decided it would be fun for immobilize to stack.

You think you should be able to nullify the skills of 20 people? Also you didnt remove the condition for 10 seconds?

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Posted by: Clownmug.8357

Clownmug.8357

Funny how there are concurrent threads complaining about thieves and condi bunkers when roaming.

The moderators should roll together these and all similar future threads into a “I should win all the time and anything that beats me is cheese!” mega thread.

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

The problem isn’t with the condi directly, it’s the stacking or durations.

When you get stuck on the ground by a group of 20 people and cannot even move for over 10 seconds then you know the game balance is broken. And I’m not talking about walls and such, all those are fine. It’s the immobilize condition stacking to maximum that is the problem.

And the worse thing is that it was fine before! Then an Anet dev decided it would be fun for immobilize to stack.

You think you should be able to nullify the skills of 20 people? Also you didnt remove the condition for 10 seconds?

I think immobilize shouldn’t stack, yes. Exactly like it was the first year the game was released. Nobody complained then, it seemed totally natural that a player has the right to move in a game.

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Posted by: Johje Holan.4607

Johje Holan.4607

Funny how there are concurrent threads complaining about thieves and condi bunkers when roaming.

The moderators should roll together these and all similar future threads into a “I should win all the time and anything that beats me is cheese!” mega thread.

Pretty sure the two mentioned are cheese though.

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Posted by: Dark FQ.1038

Dark FQ.1038

I run condi necro and I don t think it’s so bad. I know loads of super glass warriors who do loads of damage (Luckly we have the evade button). About fighting other condi classes, I don t see them often anymore , sometimes a condi thief or PU mesmer, but most people are running power.

But yeah what can I say, I roam in tier 1…

Dark Fq (Desolation and Gandara)all classes condi. http://www.youtube.com/user/FQDark

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

Funny how there are concurrent threads complaining about thieves and condi bunkers when roaming.

The moderators should roll together these and all similar future threads into a “I should win all the time and anything that beats me is cheese!” mega thread.

Pretty sure the two mentioned are cheese though.

So anything effective and/or self sufficient is cheese?

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Posted by: Mogar.9216

Mogar.9216

Given how frequently I’ve seen hilariously bad maths thrown around in this forum I’m going to assume any ‘damage out put and math of various builds’ is invalid unless proven otherwise. Additionally the only numbers I have seen posted to this forum were of a warrior soloing GL in both zerker and rabid builds and taking only marginally longer (less than 10% longer than zerker) to kill it with rabid.

Condition damage is a failure of design. The main observation I’ve made regarding its effectiveness is that the rate of application versus the rate of removal is so much more important than any other factor that you could very nearly neglect all other factors.

The reason I made this conclusion can be seen in things like a recent duelling tournament won by a condi build along with my own experience in picking up a condi build and immediately being undefeatable to a skilled opponent. These observations come from the spvp ruleset, which is not as favourable to condi due to the lack of dire, perplexity or koi cakes. On the other hand, in large scale wvw and gvg combat, condi damage is completely useless. The main difference is that aoe condi clears allow each player to clear significantly more condis per minute than a lone player, while the condi damage is no more difficult to clear due to high intensity or high duration conditions being counted the same as low intensity or low duration conditions.

The reason why this application versus removal factor causes issues in small scale play is that it demands players to stack as many condi clears as they can so they can beat condi, but in doing so they lose out on important utility against enemy power builds. Another problem is defensive stats on gear. Toughness, vitality and healing power are all useful for mitigating burst and improving sustain against power builds, but are nearly useless against a condi build. Toughness does nothing at all, vitality provides a buffer that is only equivalent to one or two cleared conditions and healing power’s effect is diminished by the typical poison that viable condi builds carry.

All of this means that a player of a power build essentially has to decide if they want to be able to beat other power builds or condi builds, with the expectation that, in order to beat one, you give up the ability to beat the other. You could try to find a good mix and you may find that you can do well against both, but most likely only if they’re scrubs (betting on condi players being scrubs is often safer than the alternative, though).

This is spot on. imo dire gear is the root of the problem. There should be a trade off between damage and defense . Dire gear gives condi build the best of both worlds. The problem is that the whole game is balanced around zerg and spvp small scale roaming will never be taken into consideration when it comes to game balance.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Then we have one build that can block, invuln, blink, stealth, evade, knockback, daze, stack condis when stealthed, apply torment on an auto attack and basically avoid directly attacking a player while applying excellent DPS. Mix in another that can keep any melee perma-blinded, also apply conditions while stealthed, has more blinks than a pretty girl flirting and is pretty much the fastest class in the game. 1v1 fights have devolved into a “why bother attacking any stealth class”.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

(edited by Straegen.2938)

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

You can’t balance 1v1 not with differences in boons,conditions, burst(range/melee),food,gear(not all power builds use zerker),buff…

You shouldn’t roam solo unless you can escape, roam in a squad,build to counter something makes you weaker to the next one,the game is not about 1v1 then this thread loses all credibility.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

It’s kind of depressing when you try to make balanced spec, land some frigging 6 skill combo and enemy bunker lose 20% HP.

Low quality trolling since launch
Seafarer’s Rest EotM grinch

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

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Posted by: mango.9267

mango.9267

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Condition duration isn’t a stat you can get in your armor/trinkets, and a number of builds don’t need any precision to deal good condition damage. It’s undeniable that condition builds give up little to no survivability while maintaining high dps.

However, a mix of bunker and power builds is still superior in group play from 5v5 upwards.

Second Child

(edited by mango.9267)

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

Condi builds need more toughness+vitality because it is damage over time, thus they actually do need to invest in more then two stats. If you are a zerker and are complaining about condi being op cuz you cant dps him down then thats your problem.

Another problem is that condi cleanses dont work over time like condi application does.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

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Posted by: RashanDale.3609

RashanDale.3609

more than doubles a stat (+40% condi duration).

How does +40% more than double the base condi duration? That would be 100%. It’s 40%, not 100%.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Condition duration isn’t a stat you can get in your armor/trinkets, and a number of builds don’t need any precision to deal good condition damage. It’s undeniable that condition builds give up little to no survivability while maintaining high dps.

However, a mix of bunker and power builds is still superior in group play from 5v5 upwards.

Giver’s stats have been in the game for some time, you should probably know about those. Additionally, power builds don’t need precision to do “good” damage, either, since soldiers builds have always out damaged dire builds.

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Posted by: mango.9267

mango.9267

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Condition duration isn’t a stat you can get in your armor/trinkets, and a number of builds don’t need any precision to deal good condition damage. It’s undeniable that condition builds give up little to no survivability while maintaining high dps.

However, a mix of bunker and power builds is still superior in group play from 5v5 upwards.

Giver’s stats have been in the game for some time, you should probably know about those. Additionally, power builds don’t need precision to do “good” damage, either, since soldiers builds have always out damaged dire builds.

Only Giver’s weapons add condition duration. My post specified that you couldn’t get that stat in your armor/trinkets. Power builds do need precision, but they don’t need ferocity that badly.

Second Child

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Condition duration isn’t a stat you can get in your armor/trinkets, and a number of builds don’t need any precision to deal good condition damage. It’s undeniable that condition builds give up little to no survivability while maintaining high dps.

However, a mix of bunker and power builds is still superior in group play from 5v5 upwards.

Giver’s stats have been in the game for some time, you should probably know about those. Additionally, power builds don’t need precision to do “good” damage, either, since soldiers builds have always out damaged dire builds.

Only Giver’s weapons add condition duration. My post specified that you couldn’t get that stat in your armor/trinkets. Power builds do need precision, but they don’t need ferocity that badly.

Meh not all the time mixes of traits….are possible
War: Int. Sig. + Burst Precision
Thief: Hidden killer
Necro: Int sig + Death Perception

Not all power build are zerker(those are most likely glass to BOTH condi and power), giving up precision or ferocity means you go for a defensive stat like valkyrie or cavalier ,soldier is popular as well. I only see zerker as needed only in pve nothing stops you from using a non-zerker amulet to be a power build.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: zen.6091

zen.6091

more than doubles a stat (+40% condi duration).

How does +40% more than double the base condi duration? That would be 100%. It’s 40%, not 100%.

Depends on whether you look at the stat as a absolute numerical value or a percentage. Max stat from traits is 30, and the food is 40.. 30+40 = 70 = 233% increase over 30.

The rational for looking at it this way is to compare it to other stats from traits. How would you feel about food that offered +400 power, ferocity, or precision, plus 70 more of another stat? If the argument is that condi builds need +40% condi duration food to be viable, it’s frankly terrible because no build should be viable or not viable because of a PvE consumable. That’s like, the laziest, we DGAF game balance imaginable. Which is pretty much a concise description of WvW build balance and the powers that be anyway :p

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Posted by: Dahir.4158

Dahir.4158

If you run around without condition removal it’s your own fault tbh.

Broski

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Posted by: CrimsonNeonite.1048

CrimsonNeonite.1048

Condition removal is limited for some classes like Thieves without Traiting, which is still not going to be enough to cleanse re-applied conditions.

Scrubio
Plays completely opposite professions to his main Teef.

(edited by CrimsonNeonite.1048)

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

Condition removal is limited for some classes like Thieves without Traiting, which is still not going to be enough to cleanse re-applied conditions.

Cleanse and GTFO is my advice. You don’t want to hang around for the second application.

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Posted by: Nubu.6148

Nubu.6148

Dont see where condi nor bunkerspecs should be a problem for smallscale grpplay …..

Nubú -Engie -Asura-
BNF-Bitte nicht füttern-
Smallscale <3 !

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Posted by: TogoChubb.3984

TogoChubb.3984

These aren’t my ideas but I have heard them in the past and kinda open to them.

1. Create gear with condi defensive stat. Then you could mix power defensive and condi defensive gear. More variety in builds this way.

2. Add some sort of condi ferocity stat. This would limit the complete stacking of dire gear. You can’t run PVT gear and put out the same damage as a DVT gear set. You need ferocity to add burst to a power build where condi doesn’t have this metric.

Commander Togochubb aka Chubby
Perfect Dark [PD] – Yaks Bend

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Posted by: Arikyali.5804

Arikyali.5804

These aren’t my ideas but I have heard them in the past and kinda open to them.

1. Create gear with condi defensive stat. Then you could mix power defensive and condi defensive gear. More variety in builds this way.

2. Add some sort of condi ferocity stat. This would limit the complete stacking of dire gear. You can’t run PVT gear and put out the same damage as a DVT gear set. You need ferocity to add burst to a power build where condi doesn’t have this metric.

Maybe not a ‘condi ferocity’ since an extra stat would mess up a lot of builds. But I do like gear with anti-condi stats. Arguably that would be vitality, so maybe anti duration or anti condi stacking.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Most (all) condi builds do not need to stack these three stats to run efficiently. Most run Rabid on crit based condi builds and dire on condi-spammer builds often mixing the two. Duration is a product of traits and food only (with one exception). Keep in mind that toughness against a condi build is a completely useless stat but vital against other power builds. Allowing condi damage to bypass toughness is a fundamental flaw in the ANet combat model.

Only Giver’s weapons add condition duration. My post specified that you couldn’t get that stat in your armor/trinkets. Power builds do need precision, but they don’t need ferocity that badly.

Without Ferocity, precision is only used to proc and gen might. There are a small handful of builds that revolve around this design but most direct damage builds have to overcome toughness which is a direct inverse to power. Attacking a condi build running Rabid with a low ferocity power build is coming to a gun fight with water pistol. Sure you might be able to drown them with that super soaker but chances are you will bleed to death before that happens.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Lucentfir.7430

Lucentfir.7430

If you run around without condition removal it’s your own fault tbh.

Tell that to the condi engineers that cry about getting whooped by Condi necros.

Condi does not have to trade off 3 stats for damage only 2. Power players have to take Power, Crit AND Crit Dmg (the now nerfed Ferocity). If condi builds had to go three stat and ANet eases up on the food, then parity would be achieved. As it is now any heavy DPS condi build either stacks toughness or vitality. They can stack both and take a relatively minor hit to overall DPS.

Condition duration, condition damage and precision equals 2 stats. Learn something new every day!

Condition duration isn’t a stat you can get in your armor/trinkets, and a number of builds don’t need any precision to deal good condition damage. It’s undeniable that condition builds give up little to no survivability while maintaining high dps.

However, a mix of bunker and power builds is still superior in group play from 5v5 upwards.

Giver’s stats have been in the game for some time, you should probably know about those. Additionally, power builds don’t need precision to do “good” damage, either, since soldiers builds have always out damaged dire builds.

People keep comparing Soldiers and Dire in damage. People keep saying Soldiers will always out damage dire basing it off of a perfect world where you will always hit your target 100% of the time, and they’re standing still with no protection, no weakness, lowest armor rating as possible , no dodging and essentially AFK. Dire’s damage scales on how many damaging coditions you have, if you have bleeds, burn, poison, just as base for a a condition build(3 damaging conditions are normal base minimum for a sufficient condi build) You already outpace Soldier damage.

Please take a warrior with GS and soldiers gear, and attack someone with protection, or weakness on you.

Reth Grimrazor – Charr Guardian – [GWB]Grim Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
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