Guild Wars 2

Just 2 quick attempts to solve the condition-problem: no stats against condi on armor, Dire = OP, etc. you know what I’m talking about.

- Add a utility nourishment with -20% condition duration, second effect whatever you like, vitality for example

- Armor should give defense against condi aswell, not in its duration, but in its effectiveness. If every 100 additional toughness to your minimum negate 3-5% condition damage, we would be fine against full defense dire builds just unloading their condi and waiting for you to die. Means, with 1k extra armor its 30-50% (just like physical damage: double the armor = half the damage)

As I expect some Dire users to cry now, just adjust the percentage to the amount where you dont need tissues anymore.

-20% from food (it already exists, just in case it wasn’t a troll suggestion) and -25% from rune already gives -45% condition duration with minimal stat investment, then you got cleanses and eventually resistance on top of it and you still want even more (passive) dmg reduction without trade-off? Are there not enough bunkers arround?

He said utility, not food.

Cygnus.6903:

He said utility, not food.

exactly. so utility: -20% and food: -20%, that would be a start.

Why not implement -20% direct dmg foods and rune too, so nobody has to die ever?

Aury.1367:

Cygnus.6903:

He said utility, not food.

exactly. so utility: -20% and food: -20%, that would be a start.

Why there should be a -20% duration utility when the utility that increase duration is only +10%?

“balance”

But why should players have to try to negate the obviously unbalaned condis when anet could just balance it out properly! It’s their job to fix it, not ours to try an live with it!

DevilishLyx.2340:

But why should players have to try to negate the obviously unbalaned condis when anet could just balance it out properly! It’s their job to fix it, not ours to try an live with it!

Because they gave us tools to fight it. If you choose to not use them, that’s entirely on you.

Big problem with condis are some classes utilities/traits, the problem isn’t with conditions itself. That being said you can still counter condi with builds/runes anyway.

IMO condi doesnt need a nerff but some skills need reworking. We all know how strong epi is….. this skill its self, from pushing one well timed button, can kill 5 ppl in a second…. THIS SKILL NEEDS REWORKING… A simple – amount of stacks spread depending on strength of condition limit, would fix this skill. example: Vunribility – max 25, bleed 15, but the stronger ones like burning and confusion only copy 5 stacks. skill would keep its use but not be stupid OP.

DevilishLyx.2340:

But why should players have to try to negate the obviously unbalaned condis when anet could just balance it out properly! It’s their job to fix it, not ours to try an live with it!

Ever heard of resistance? It blocks ALL condi damage. Condi is more than balanced, unless you are a poor, innocent npc who never bothered anyone.

Conditions work the same as if might had no cap and did not increase condition damage and to the people you say conditions can instantly be cleansed, power can be interupted/ boon stripped and and cc’ed in the same way; it is the not having a cap and crazy duration of that makes it so over powered combind with almost instant re-application. I say hey lets try having might only increase power with no cap and see how that goes for a bit? haha

Condition duration -% is more of a counter to soft cc not condi dmg unless your getting it to 90% or higher because condi dmg is not about long ticks its about burst dmg ticks from being able to stack the same type many times. Take burning if your getting high enofe stacks to do 4k dmg per tick but its on say a 5 sec duration and you clear it say with in 2 sec or have -50% duration your still taking 8k dmg and with the way these condi classes play they often can simply reapply it. What happens in the burning effect becomes stronger then crit power dmg burst and all the condi clear and -% duration will not stop it. Condi dmg -% dmg take is the only true counter to condi dmg.

The fix maybe making condi dmg have a set up time before it starts to tick giving ppl a chase to clear it before it starts to work and to make -% duration make the set up time longer more of a front lode counter vs a very week back end counter.

Jski.6180:

Condition duration -% is more of a counter to soft cc not condi dmg unless your getting it to 90% or higher because condi dmg is not about long ticks its about burst dmg ticks from being able to stack the same type many times. Take burning if your getting high enofe stacks to do 4k dmg per tick but its on say a 5 sec duration and you clear it say with in 2 sec or have -50% duration your still taking 8k dmg and with the way these condi classes play they often can simply reapply it. What happens in the burning effect becomes stronger then crit power dmg burst and all the condi clear and -% duration will not stop it. Condi dmg -% dmg take is the only true counter to condi dmg.

The fix maybe making condi dmg have a set up time before it starts to tick giving ppl a chase to clear it before it starts to work and to make -% duration make the set up time longer more of a front lode counter vs a very week back end counter.

What makes the duation so OP is to have it increases duration so much with such a high tick, or making thoughs burst skills (low time) longer to add even more burst without the time increasing enough for said increased damage. it’s having your cake and eatting it too. there is no offensive aspect like this with power except might and some what fury which does equally the same for condi with out giving up vitality or toughness or both and becoming a squish ball. boon duration should have some type of offense increase to maybe fury that it increases with amount of boon duration you have maybe to said 50% crit chance?

Oh yea, there is nothing that increases power dmg, no precision and ferocity, no dmg modifiers, and boon duration is obviously way too weak, needs definitely some more buffs. You clearly have some great understanding about how the game works …

I just use condition cleanse utilities, condition cleanse traits, cleansing sigils and dodge the attacks that apply conditions.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Oh yea, there is nothing that increases power dmg, no precision and ferocity, no dmg modifiers, and boon duration is obviously way too weak, needs definitely some more buffs. You clearly have some great understanding about how the game works …

Here is the thing though, conditions can take advantage of all the same modifiers, because the people with boons share it most of the time, where conditon duration cannot be shared with people with power/ boons; condition duration offense /boon duration defensive; defensive part can be shared, offensive part can’t… makes it unbalanced, I’m not against conditons why not have a way to share condion duration output with your squad/party, like boons can be shared? conditon damage is too much like power in that it bursts, it should be a damage over time use and power should be burst, I would remove Conditon damage and have condition skills be a set damage, and only increase in duration to remove the stupid high damage/tick like now. conditons should be a soft cc and DOT.

Oh, i didn’t know boon share works for precision, ferocity and dmg modifier. Are you sure, we are playing the same game?

frickenreesh.7068:

I would remove Conditon damage and have condition skills be a set damage, and only increase in duration to remove the stupid high damage/tick like now. conditons should be a soft cc and DOT.

Have you ever applied a condition without having any condition damage? Some of them are so low that you cannot even say that they tickle (such as bleed). Condition damage is a way to increase the damage overtime we do. Why should damage overtime be static while you can buff direct damage? If they ever do that to conditions they should just set the direct damage of every skill in the game and give them no aplifiers to make it fair.

Also, I’m still waiting these “condition bursts” everyone complain about… All I see are people mentioning them but nothing… Sure burn can tick really high (and problably is the only condition that can do so), but you need several stacks of burn for that which most likely will be cleansed even before they reach that stage (unless you fighting some moron who do not take condition clears).

Yeah power does have offensive modifiers at the cost of loosing something, if you go full boon duration you loose the amount of total power you can have which means crits and modifiers do nothing because you will have 20% crit chance with fury with low power and be a wet noodle at 100% on crit doing no extra damage because you have 0 ferocity as well, or go full squish ball and have the the ferocity and critt chance and get insta downed in a zerg or fight by condis, because you are full zerker. or have the power vitality and toughness you need and loose out on the crit % ferocity and boon duration increase, Conditon builds do not have to loose anything to gain a lot… they can go burst with conditon duration and not have to loose out on vitality- to deal with burst, or toughness, to deal with power…

Crits have 150% base dmg with 0 ferocity, wtf you talking about? And no one actually NEED to have 250%+ Crit damage to do somenthing…
Most of the people currently run between 181-200% crit damage, have a reasonable high sustain, multiple boons with high boon duration, and still hit like kittening trucks thanks to the Power Creep introduced by HoT.

Jeknar.6184:

frickenreesh.7068:

I would remove Conditon damage and have condition skills be a set damage, and only increase in duration to remove the stupid high damage/tick like now. conditons should be a soft cc and DOT.

Have you ever applied a condition without having any condition damage? Some of them are so low that you cannot even say that they tickle (such as bleed). Condition damage is a way to increase the damage overtime we do. Why should damage overtime be static while you can buff direct damage? If they ever do that to conditions they should just set the direct damage of every skill in the game and give them no aplifiers to make it fair.

Also, I’m still waiting these “condition bursts” everyone complain about… All I see are people mentioning them but nothing… Sure burn can tick really high (and problably is the only condition that can do so), but you need several stacks of burn for that which most likely will be cleansed even before they reach that stage (unless you fighting some moron who do not take condition clears).

Go into build editor and make a Trail blazer Reaper with dire weapons and antitoxin runes and plus condition duraton sigil, and plus stacking conditon damage increase and look at a staff skills, with full stacks and full might and septer skills then think well of corruption on said boons that are op then well of corruption and a epi, this build may not be a great 1v1 build but in a group fight the BURST of condis and from conditon power is greater than power because yes if can be cleansed but can be instantly re-applied or cleanes skill gives boon and is corupted too; take the same stat items and add it to a beserker, talk about 100 ways to apply burn and bleed for skills that have a natural short duration but with the over the top duration makes it longer just enough it is still short but damage amplifies over the top. weapons for that is sword torch, sword shield with trailblazers and dire weapons, sword, main thing. this is a more small group build that does over the top damage and good for 1v1 fights too. it would be op if the long bow skills where a little better for large zerg fights. maybe increasing the time the skill takes to put that damage would help.

On a full trailblazer reaper with antitoxin rune, 25 stacks of might and 25 corruption sigil stacks (= about 2750 condition dmg and 60% condition duration), staff 2 will hit for a maximum of ~ 5,3k dmg over the course of 14 seconds (<400 tick). Staff 3 will hit for a maximum of about 7,3k in 14 seconds (<800tick), staff 5 will hit for a maximum of ~ 2,6k over 14 seconds (<200 tick), so with all conditons from staff, condi reaper can barely get to 2k ticks, assuming no cleanses, no resistance and no duration reductions. Condition reaper can’t burst with staff. Meanwhile power reaper can autoattack for 4k+ per second. Now lets look at scepter (including lingering curse). With constant autoattacks you can get to about 5k ticks i guess, but it will take more than 10 seconds and it is only single target. Nothing that i would call burst. Scepter 2 about 15k dmg over 25 seconds (<600 ticks). Scepter 3 max 20k dmg over 10s (<2k ticks) on moving target. With everything together you can maybe get to 10k ticks, but it will take literally an eternity and an afk target to get there. No burst at all. Power reaper drops a few wells and can deal similar dmg in a fraction of this time. Corrupts can add some dmg, but no burst either, because they apply only low stacks. Condi reaper can only burst with transfers or with epidemic in coordination with other condi builds. But even those thing will require a ramp up time, coordination and timing (especially epi bombs) and they can be countered by equally coordinated power burst/cc/dodge/invuln/blind and last but not least – cleanses. Too bad those things require some thinking and active play instead of brainless skill spamming while getting carried hard by passive boons.

Jeknar.6184:

Aury.1367:

Cygnus.6903:

He said utility, not food.

exactly. so utility: -20% and food: -20%, that would be a start.

Why there should be a -20% duration utility when the utility that increase duration is only +10%?

“balance”

Probably something along the lines of Expertise inflating the duration stat more than necessary while there exists no counter-stat to it.

But what do I know >.>

DeceiverX.8361:

Jeknar.6184:

Aury.1367:

Cygnus.6903:

He said utility, not food.

exactly. so utility: -20% and food: -20%, that would be a start.

Why there should be a -20% duration utility when the utility that increase duration is only +10%?

“balance”

Probably something along the lines of Expertise inflating the duration stat more than necessary while there exists no counter-stat to it.

But what do I know >.>

There no counter stat to Concentration either nor to precision.

Not a stat, but cleanses and resistance can completely nullify any benefit from expertise. Dmg increase from precision and ferocity can be reduced by toughness and protection, but it won’t get completely nullified. Condi duration is also capped at + 100% while ferocity is not. (+150% dmg possible).
And i though, the issue with condis is the “burst” not the dmg over time, but expertise increases only the latter, so where’s the problem now?

frickenreesh.7068:

Yeah power does have offensive modifiers at the cost of loosing something, if you go full boon duration you loose the amount of total power you can have which means crits and modifiers do nothing because you will have 20% crit chance with fury with low power and be a wet noodle at 100% on crit doing no extra damage because you have 0 ferocity as well, or go full squish ball and have the the ferocity and critt chance and get insta downed in a zerg or fight by condis, because you are full zerker. or have the power vitality and toughness you need and loose out on the crit % ferocity and boon duration increase, Conditon builds do not have to loose anything to gain a lot… they can go burst with conditon duration and not have to loose out on vitality- to deal with burst, or toughness, to deal with power…

Simply not true. Let us take boon duration warrior as example.

High fury uptime . In fact this generally 100 percent. Thats like 400+ precision. Trait signet mastery can stack up 500 precision. Trait blademaster adds 20 percent precision against bleeding foes.

Thats 1300 precision without gear. Valkyrie will get you all the ferocity you need. With boon duration all sources of might last much longer. Just as example Sigil of strength is 1 might stack for 10 seconds base. You get boon duration up over 70 percent and this sigil with dumplingscan build high might stacks. There no net loss in power.

There other options as well such as traiting 100 percent cit chance on burst. Lower your burst cooldown and build adrenaline rapidly and use in Conjunction with DD runes and dodge and you can pump out significant damage via crits with a lower precision overall.

babazhook.6805:

frickenreesh.7068:

Yeah power does have offensive modifiers at the cost of loosing something, if you go full boon duration you loose the amount of total power you can have which means crits and modifiers do nothing because you will have 20% crit chance with fury with low power and be a wet noodle at 100% on crit doing no extra damage because you have 0 ferocity as well, or go full squish ball and have the the ferocity and critt chance and get insta downed in a zerg or fight by condis, because you are full zerker. or have the power vitality and toughness you need and loose out on the crit % ferocity and boon duration increase, Conditon builds do not have to loose anything to gain a lot… they can go burst with conditon duration and not have to loose out on vitality- to deal with burst, or toughness, to deal with power…

Simply not true. Let us take boon duration warrior as example.

High fury uptime . In fact this generally 100 percent. Thats like 400+ precision. Trait signet mastery can stack up 500 precision. Trait blademaster adds 20 percent precision against bleeding foes.

Thats 1300 precision without gear. Valkyrie will get you all the ferocity you need. With boon duration all sources of might last much longer. Just as example Sigil of strength is 1 might stack for 10 seconds base. You get boon duration up over 70 percent and this sigil with dumplingscan build high might stacks. There no net loss in power.

There other options as well such as traiting 100 percent cit chance on burst. Lower your burst cooldown and build adrenaline rapidly and use in Conjunction with DD runes and dodge and you can pump out significant damage via crits with a lower precision overall.

I love how you talk about Arms as if it is a viable traitline for warrior out of PvE. Back to the dreaming board!

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

frickenreesh.7068:

Yeah power does have offensive modifiers at the cost of loosing something, if you go full boon duration you loose the amount of total power you can have which means crits and modifiers do nothing because you will have 20% crit chance with fury with low power and be a wet noodle at 100% on crit doing no extra damage because you have 0 ferocity as well, or go full squish ball and have the the ferocity and critt chance and get insta downed in a zerg or fight by condis, because you are full zerker. or have the power vitality and toughness you need and loose out on the crit % ferocity and boon duration increase, Conditon builds do not have to loose anything to gain a lot… they can go burst with conditon duration and not have to loose out on vitality- to deal with burst, or toughness, to deal with power…

Simply not true. Let us take boon duration warrior as example.

High fury uptime . In fact this generally 100 percent. Thats like 400+ precision. Trait signet mastery can stack up 500 precision. Trait blademaster adds 20 percent precision against bleeding foes.

Thats 1300 precision without gear. Valkyrie will get you all the ferocity you need. With boon duration all sources of might last much longer. Just as example Sigil of strength is 1 might stack for 10 seconds base. You get boon duration up over 70 percent and this sigil with dumplingscan build high might stacks. There no net loss in power.

There other options as well such as traiting 100 percent cit chance on burst. Lower your burst cooldown and build adrenaline rapidly and use in Conjunction with DD runes and dodge and you can pump out significant damage via crits with a lower precision overall.

I love how you talk about Arms as if it is a viable traitline for warrior out of PvE. Back to the dreaming board!

You are absolutely clueless are you not? You claim p/p can not generate the damage required to kill dire yet I play it every night and kill people in dire. You claim arms not viable yet I have a warrior that does just that . Arms is perfectly viable and more then just viable on a warrior in WvW.

Using arms a warrior can get. A second source of unblockable attacks. (12 seconds of unblockable in a row can be chained. This melts any class that relies on blocks) Adrenaline generated on every hit. 100 percent crit rate. All but permanent resistance to conditions as needed. greatly increased access to stability. Permanent Swiftness/fury. A permanent 5 percent damage boost. Permanent ongoing application of Vuln stacks which generally means 5+ stacks meaning a 10 percent boost to damge when coupled with bloodlust trait.

I understand you are unable to kill people in heavy armor but please do not make a learn to play issue into “it can not be done because I can not do it”.

Cygnus.6903:

I love how you talk about Arms as if it is a viable traitline for warrior out of PvE. Back to the dreaming board!

Gunflame warriors run Arms instead of discipline most of the time. 7% burst skill damage won’t make up for a second unblockable signet and extra precision+lowered signet cooldowns and 100% crit chance on Burst Skill. At worst, the only thing that can be missed is Warrior’s Sprint, but even that can be mitigated since you’ll have Dogged March and lower cd on signets, which means you can have resistance up more often by activating the Healing Signet (when Berserker Stance is not avaible).

Now if other warriors use arms, I don’t see that much… Almost everyone just run Def/Dis/Ber.

DeceiverX.8361:

Probably something along the lines of Expertise inflating the duration stat more than necessary while there exists no counter-stat to it.

I’m pretty sure expertise is the counter to all the -duration traits, runes, and food.

Has anyone here complaining about condi ever actually played a full condi build on a reaper? Why don’t you try it and come back and tell us all how OP it is. Man, if i had a dollar for every, “I got epi’ed and died so condi needs a nerf” post….

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Jeknar.6184:

Aury.1367:

Cygnus.6903:

He said utility, not food.

exactly. so utility: -20% and food: -20%, that would be a start.

Why there should be a -20% duration utility when the utility that increase duration is only +10%?

“balance”

Probably something along the lines of Expertise inflating the duration stat more than necessary while there exists no counter-stat to it.

But what do I know >.>

There no counter stat to Concentration either nor to precision.

Weakness armor and protection is the counter to precision. I would love to see a conter boon % duration but for the most part things that do more dmg for more boons is the “soft” conter.

Condi dmg and it getting effected by duration has no true counter.

Osu.6307:

Has anyone here complaining about condi ever actually played a full condi build on a reaper? Why don’t you try it and come back and tell us all how OP it is. Man, if i had a dollar for every, “I got epi’ed and died so condi needs a nerf” post….

Full condi ele here even with just 2 types its soo crazy what you can pull off ontop of being a top end healing support. As for necro only playing with them and watching a group of 5 take down 20 ish.

Jski.6180:

Condi dmg and it getting effected by duration has no true counter..

Ever heard of Resistance and Condition Clears?

Jeknar.6184:

Jski.6180:

Condi dmg and it getting effected by duration has no true counter..

Ever heard of Resistance and Condition Clears?

As only one class can truly use resistance effectively making it a class only tool that more of a class counter then a type counter. Clears do not stop the burst effect because this game is on the web and ping becomes a realty problem and you cant chose what your clearing so you may end up getting the non dmg condis so clear is more of a soft counter to all condis not a hard counter to condi dmg.

To the condition crybaby: Vitality is counter to condi along with condi clear and health regen.

Toughness is counter to power along with health regen.

Build accordingly and quit calling for NERF NERF NERF.

Jski, you can’t balance a game around the presumption of lag. Lag at that level also hurts power so your argument fails as a anti-condi argument on its’ face. Nerf lag 2017? No arguments from anyone.

And just because you can’t choose what you clear doesn’t mean bringing less than adequate cleanse is the fault of your opponent. You are responsible for your build out.

Jski.6180:

Jeknar.6184:

Jski.6180:

Condi dmg and it getting effected by duration has no true counter..

Ever heard of Resistance and Condition Clears?

As only one class can truly use resistance effectively making it a class only tool that more of a class counter then a type counter. Clears do not stop the burst effect because this game is on the web and ping becomes a realty problem and you cant chose what your clearing so you may end up getting the non dmg condis so clear is more of a soft counter to all condis not a hard counter to condi dmg.

While warrior tops users of resistance the Condtion revenant is not all bad on it and a thief with RS using improv can steal it as well. The nastiest condtion build is the Mesmer one from my experience and it really helps you can steal resistance from them so as to get consume plasma.

I have a build that uses ONE sigil of cleansing on off hand weapon and SE as his only cleanses. He does fine bcause he works at avoiding apps as much as is possible. This does not mean he invulnerable and never dies , it just means it not as bad as people claim.

Minion master Necro using Rise has a whole pile of cleanses via Necromantic Corruption. A Condition build going up against that will have far more issues than will a power build.

Jeknar.6184:

Cygnus.6903:

I love how you talk about Arms as if it is a viable traitline for warrior out of PvE. Back to the dreaming board!

Gunflame warriors run Arms instead of discipline most of the time. 7% burst skill damage won’t make up for a second unblockable signet and extra precision+lowered signet cooldowns and 100% crit chance on Burst Skill. At worst, the only thing that can be missed is Warrior’s Sprint, but even that can be mitigated since you’ll have Dogged March and lower cd on signets, which means you can have resistance up more often by activating the Healing Signet (when Berserker Stance is not avaible).

Now if other warriors use arms, I don’t see that much… Almost everyone just run Def/Dis/Ber.

I swapped from Discipline to Arms some time ago and have not looked back. Given My one power warrior build a boon build I have high access to resistance getting 11 seconds off healing signet alone on a 16 second cooldown. This also means zerker stance gives over 27 seconds.

With the added activication of might via signet mastery I can get up to 12 seconds of unblockable attacks every 20. This double activation also increases precision by 100 each time used for a minute each.

Given I am boon duration I use Signet of rage over headbutt , this on a 48 second cooldown which provides swiftness might and fury for 46 of those seconds along with 100 more precision. I am not missing warriors sprint in the least.

Simonoly.4352:

I just use condition cleanse utilities, condition cleanse traits, cleansing sigils and dodge the attacks that apply conditions.

FINALLY someone that actually knows how to play WvW. +1 sir

Electra.7530:

To the condition crybaby: Vitality is counter to condi along with condi clear and health regen.

Toughness is counter to power along with health regen.

Build accordingly and quit calling for NERF NERF NERF.

+1 to you as well sir!

babazhook.6805:

You are absolutely clueless are you not? You claim p/p can not generate the damage required to kill dire yet I play it every night and kill people in dire. You claim arms not viable yet I have a warrior that does just that . Arms is perfectly viable and more then just viable on a warrior in WvW.

Using arms a warrior can get. A second source of unblockable attacks. (12 seconds of unblockable in a row can be chained. This melts any class that relies on blocks) Adrenaline generated on every hit. 100 percent crit rate. All but permanent resistance to conditions as needed. greatly increased access to stability. Permanent Swiftness/fury. A permanent 5 percent damage boost. Permanent ongoing application of Vuln stacks which generally means 5+ stacks meaning a 10 percent boost to damge when coupled with bloodlust trait.

I understand you are unable to kill people in heavy armor but please do not make a learn to play issue into “it can not be done because I can not do it”.

If you kill a person in Dire with pp on thief, that person is clueless. No doubt about it. Also find it funny how you know the people you ‘kill every night in Dire’ are wearing Dire.

Arms is not viable, or maybe I’m using the wrong word here. You can play gimmicky builds, like gunflame, and have some fun, and even be somewhat optimized in a very niche setting (small group roaming). But a build with Discipline will always be better in the current state of warrior.

Then you start listing all the benefits from Arms. Dude, seriously. First of all, I can read. Second, I’ve been playing this class a good while now.

If we square off the things you list versus, say, the far superior Discipline traitline;

- You get the unblockables, which is nice. You do pay a costly utility slot for that, mind you. They also provide you 0 benefit versus classes that don’t block.
- Adrenaline generation on hit is completely irrelevant. Adrenaline management is a thing of the past, especially if you take Discipline. Fast Hands+Versatile Rage+Burst Mastery are far better then Furious when it comes to Adrenaline.
- You talk about ‘near permanent resistance’. As if those 4 seconds off of Healing Signet make all the difference? Really, another theoretical advantage, which amounts to nothing when actually playing the game. Don’t forget, you often want Healing Signet off cooldown to actually, I don’t know, heal?
- As a sidenote, when that perma resistance fails (boonsteal/corruption), you don’t have Brawler’s Recovery to aid in condition cleansing. So if you don’t land your burst, you die.
- Greatly increased access to stability? Are you seriously talking about Dolyak Signet? So you’re taking Dolyak Signet, Signet of Might and Berserker’s Stance? I guess, in your quest to prove conditions are weak, you decided to die to anything power.
- Permanent Swiftness is irrelevant when you get 25% from Warrior’s Sprint. Granted, there is a small speed difference, but WS also cleanses immobilize on movement skills. You haven’t mentioned that, but it is crucial to a warrior’s survivability, and his offensive ability on a melee set as well.
- Perma Fury is good, Discipline builds only get the Fury from transforming. However, you don’t take Headbutt as a trade-off, which is far superior. Holy kitten, that skill is just too good to be true.
- 5% damage from bloodlust is trumped by versatile power, which is an added 60 power for 10 seconds every time you swap (which with Fast Hands is often). You can get 6 stacks easily if you have boon duration.
- Vulnerability stacking sounds good on paper, but you won’t get 5 stacks from that trait. Get your facts straight. Even if you have 100% crit, it’s only 33% chance per attack, 8 second duration. You would have to hit everything and very quickly to ever get 5 stacks. So don’t make it better then it is.

Man, all this talking, where it is not hard to see that just Fast Hands beats Arms.

Cygnus.6903:

If you kill a person in Dire with pp on thief, that person is clueless. No doubt about it. Also find it funny how you know the people you ‘kill every night in Dire’ are wearing Dire.

Everyone automatically assume every condition build is dire. People who complain about it do the same. I know that because when I played Viper Mesmer everyone would call me “Bunker condi kitten” despite the fact that I had only 1000 vitality and toughness.

Cygnus.6903:

Arms is not viable, or maybe I’m using the wrong word here. You can play gimmicky builds, like gunflame, and have some fun, and even be somewhat optimized in a very niche setting (small group roaming). But a build with Discipline will always be better in the current state of warrior.

And conditions (which are the actual complaint of the thread) are useless in zergs except for the epidemic bombs which is a problem with the skill and not with condition themselves. One could even say conditions are for the ‘very niche setting’ of small group roaming.

I guess we can /thread here, right? But let’s carry on… I’m interested in the warrior Theorycrafting here.

Cygnus.6903:

Then you start listing all the benefits from Arms. Dude, seriously. First of all, I can read. Second, I’ve been playing this class a good while now.

If we square off the things you list versus, say, the far superior Discipline traitline;

While I’m not entirely sold by the superiority of arms as he claims, I know a few advantages of that trait line, so let’s hear your defense of Discipline.

Cygnus.6903:

- You get the unblockables, which is nice. You do pay a costly utility slot for that, mind you. They also provide you 0 benefit versus classes that don’t block

You don’t necessarily need to take Signet of Might to make it proc out of Signet mastery. Of course, it would make a somewhat unreliable use for the unblockable since it would only come up if you hit a target below 50% (and sometimes you want to blast through blocks sooner). However, I disagree that Signet of Might on the bar is compeltely useless. 180 extra power is far from useless imo plus you can still activate it for the 100 precision for 1min.

Cygnus.6903:

- Adrenaline generation on hit is completely irrelevant. Adrenaline management is a thing of the past, especially if you take Discipline. Fast Hands+Versatile Rage+Burst Mastery are far better then Furious when it comes to Adrenaline.

That’s true. Adrenaline generation by discipline is far superior. But we’re talking about not taking Discipline so it kinda need to make up for the downside, no?
Still, I’m not really sold on that one aswell. Last time I ran Strenght instead of Discipline, I felt the lack of Adrenaline. But I didn’t try with Arms.

Cygnus.6903:

- You talk about ‘near permanent resistance’. As if those 4 seconds off of Healing Signet make all the difference? Really, another theoretical advantage, which amounts to nothing when actually playing the game. Don’t forget, you often want Healing Signet off cooldown to actually, I don’t know, heal?

I’m pretty sure the build in question here is a mix of Commander+Berserker with high boon duration… And Healing Signet give 6s base, not 4s. Plus, you can push it further than 9s with only Commander Armor (No Weapon or Trinkets), Durability Runes and Fried Dumplings/Gnashblade Mussels. Considering he mention 11s of resistance in his reply to me, I’d say he go even deeper on boon duration than I would.
Also, who the hell press Healing Signet to actually heal? The passive healing from the signet is far superior. Everytime I see a warrior use the signet to heal himself, he is dead even before signet is back up. First thing I learned as warrior is DO NOT PRESS THE HEALING BUTTON. Now we have a exception to that rule if we need resistance but it still apply.

Continuing on my next post because it will exceed 5000 character limit.

Cygnus.6903:

- As a sidenote, when that perma resistance fails (boonsteal/corruption), you don’t have Brawler’s Recovery to aid in condition cleansing. So if you don’t land your burst, you die.

That’s true, but I don’t think brawler recovery will really save you if you get corrupted and condi bombed either. But I belive that’s why there are other boons, such as the ones from Signet of Rage, going on the build, so they can cover resistance long enough to it make effect…

Cygnus.6903:

- Greatly increased access to stability? Are you seriously talking about Dolyak Signet? So you’re taking Dolyak Signet, Signet of Might and Berserker’s Stance? I guess, in your quest to prove conditions are weak, you decided to die to anything power.

Pretty sure he’s talking about Eternal Champion with Outrage. You get 3s base stability everytime you break out of stun with it (and it have only 10s cd). Coupled with rousing resilience, this can make you really tanky… Wait, I thought everyone ran that already… What I am missing here?

Cygnus.6903:

- Permanent Swiftness is irrelevant when you get 25% from Warrior’s Sprint. Granted, there is a small speed difference, but WS also cleanses immobilize on movement skills. You haven’t mentioned that, but it is crucial to a warrior’s survivability, and his offensive ability on a melee set as well.

I belive he don’t miss the immobilize removal because of resistance… Granted, you need to keep the resistance going, and I’m not entirely sold on that one either (in fact I do mention that in my last post). Dogged March kinda help tho, but you would have to drop shield mastery for that. I run GS/LB, so I already run Dogged March by default, but most warriors I see run A+Sh, so I’m not sure if they would give up Shield Mastery like that.

Cygnus.6903:

- Perma Fury is good, Discipline builds only get the Fury from transforming. However, you don’t take Headbutt as a trade-off, which is far superior. Holy kitten, that skill is just too good to be true.

I agree with you here. Headbutt is too good. Not sure if taking Signet of Rage, even with Signet Mastery, actually pays off. But maybe one can run Headbutt anyway. That would make Resistance easier to be stripped tho.

Cygnus.6903:

- 5% damage from bloodlust is trumped by versatile power, which is an added 60 power for 10 seconds every time you swap (which with Fast Hands is often). You can get 6 stacks easily if you have boon duration.

You called 180 power useless (back in the Signet of might part) and now you trying to make 60 power look useful? Even with 6 stacks that exactly the 180 power you called useless back there. Also, I don’t really swap weapons every 4s to make this kind of use of that trait and I don’t really think anyone does. Plus, if 5% damage is so bad compared to 2 might stacks, why Sigil of Force is so expensive while Sigil of Battle is dirty cheap? I guess there is somenthing in there.

Cygnus.6903:

- Vulnerability stacking sounds good on paper, but you won’t get 5 stacks from that trait. Get your facts straight. Even if you have 100% crit, it’s only 33% chance per attack, 8 second duration. You would have to hit everything and very quickly to ever get 5 stacks. So don’t make it better then it is.

Well, yeah. I guess the vulnerability stacking here is just a minor plus and not really the most amazing of all.

Cygnus.6903:

Man, all this talking, where it is not hard to see that just Fast Hands beats Arms.

I still don’t see that. Fast Hands is problably the only thing I would NOT miss in Discipline if it suddenly disapeared.

Anyway, I’ll be testing this build once I get back on the field… Been a while since I last player warrior seriously, so it should be a fun experience. It was entertaining discussion friends. Let’s see how this works.

I played Discipline for a long time and so know exactly what I gave up.

Firstly, Furious adds more Adrenaline then you think. Prior to using it I did not think it would add a lot but you can get some decent adrenaline when cleaving or using hundred blades particular against multiples.

As Jeknar stated signet of rage , along with that high boon duration for the other boon sources, allows plenty of cover for resistance.

Yes you can garner 5 stacks vuln. 8 seconds is a lot of attacks. Try it.

People are allowed to switch up skills in game dependent on mode. When I roam 1v1 i prefer Might signet. When I get in zerg fights I prefer the stability of Dolyak. I have even switched out mid combat when realizing stability more needed then unblockables. It rather easy to break off long enough to switch out.

Generally it Berserker stance, endure pain, healing signet and Rage with one of dolyak or might added in the last spot.

Healing signet.

Never use it for a heal if in a group fight. If you are fighting a condition build 1v1 it can be used dependent on the profession and build of the enemy. As example if the enemy has a pet or minions you can easily ensure adrenal running off those as you remain condition immune. Adrenal can keep up with the raw damage of those builds. You do not use the Resistance everytime the healing signet off cooldown. You use it when conditions build to a point where you can not cleanse them fast enough such as after a burst.

Having all attacks have a VERY high rate of crit with nominal investment in precision stats frees me up to focus on other stats .

Discipline gets a lot of the damage boost out of the bursts via burst mastery . Given I also play thief, I learned a long time ago to avoid those bursts. They can be blocked, dodged or kited from. If my burst can be dodged to prevent a condition cleanse or adrenal kickin so too can the burst of people using the Discipline line. While the Discipline user can indeed still clean ONE condition on a weapon swap if his bursts misses the GM trait I use out of Arms works on every attack and not just bursts.

I do not use Commanders. I use Wanderers in conjunction with Zerker . This gets a 26 percent base precision and oodles of vitality (which also helps get through the downtimes on conditions). I use exotic gear on the accessories so I add platinum doubloons. The backpack also uses platinum doubloon. Rings are pure zerker ascended.

Might stacks have a limit. In group fights with my build i can generate 16+ rather easily just off attacks. This means if we have a person in party adding might as well you can reach 25 quickly. Having fast hands add might does nothing here. I prefer the constant percentage add of bloodlust and vuln stacking combo.

Electra.7530:

To the condition crybaby: Vitality is counter to condi along with condi clear and health regen.

Toughness is counter to power along with health regen.

Build accordingly and quit calling for NERF NERF NERF.

As condi has the only build in counter to healing and reg yet power dmg dose not i do not see your point at all.

Your giving a dmg type a free ride to being op. Nothing effects it as other dmg types in the game. You do not need to build all in to do high dmg with it beyond using one combo of 3-4.
Its silly to think about how much wvw has been pushed to one dmg type to the point of every one even the old power dmg classes to running only condi dmg.

In effect your not playing better then other ppl when you win on a condi dmg build vs some one playing a power dmg build your simply playing the stronger build and a dmg type that has not been updated to match the current game. Now if you lose to a power dmg build that lost is all on you and or the one playing the condi dmg.

saerni.2584:

Jski, you can’t balance a game around the presumption of lag. Lag at that level also hurts power so your argument fails as a anti-condi argument on its’ face. Nerf lag 2017? No arguments from anyone.

And just because you can’t choose what you clear doesn’t mean bringing less than adequate cleanse is the fault of your opponent. You are responsible for your build out.

You do have to becuse its an online game and every one is at some disavages base off where they live or your simply going to have the “best” player who live closer to the survers.

Not being able to chose what condi you remove is a BIG deal it lets ppl high the real condi killer behind soft cc or even lesser dmg. For power dmg you have MAJOR tells when big hits are coming letting you block or avoid it the counter to power dmg that are = to condi removal. But you cant remove the big condi dmg with out getting though all the lesser. Its on the lines that condi is a self contain conter systom in its self. Condi dmg has a build in counter to healing over time (should be a counter to a dot but its not in this game) and a counter to clearing as in being able to spame condi over and over and coving up the major dmg. On-top of that most of the classes that are the problem when you have condi on them can eat though boons that are seen as counters to condi more effectively then clears can remove though condis.

It come down to this ppl who play power dmg must changes how to play to deal with ppl who are going high anty power dmg builds and game play ppl who are playing conid dmg do not have to changes how they are playing to deal with ppl who are going high anty condi dmg. Power has a counter condi dose not.

Jeknar.6184:

Everyone automatically assume every condition build is dire. People who complain about it do the same. I know that because when I played Viper Mesmer everyone would call me “Bunker condi kitten” despite the fact that I had only 1000 vitality and toughness.

I see what you mean, but I don’t. If I get shrekt by some cancersmer, I’ll check my combat log to see if their shatter actually did damage, or that I just died from repetitive condi application. Babazhook made an assumption, which I called out.

Cygnus.6903:

Arms is not viable, or maybe I’m using the wrong word here. You can play gimmicky builds, like gunflame, and have some fun, and even be somewhat optimized in a very niche setting (small group roaming). But a build with Discipline will always be better in the current state of warrior.

Jeknar.6184:

And conditions (which are the actual complaint of the thread) are useless in zergs except for the epidemic bombs which is a problem with the skill and not with condition themselves. One could even say conditions are for the ‘very niche setting’ of small group roaming.

I guess we can /thread here, right? But let’s carry on… I’m interested in the warrior Theorycrafting here.

And conditions not being viable in zerg fights is a problem. Not an easy one to solve, whereas condi’s ruining other players’ fun because of imbalanced risk reward in the current state of the game, is.

I’ll continue my post replying to your warrior thoughts, even though we are getting very off topic. But you either misread certain things, or maybe I was unclear. Let me clarify.

Cygnus.6903:

Then you start listing all the benefits from Arms. Dude, seriously. First of all, I can read. Second, I’ve been playing this class a good while now.

If we square off the things you list versus, say, the far superior Discipline traitline.

You get the unblockables, which is nice. You do pay a costly utility slot for that, mind you. They also provide you 0 benefit versus classes that don’t block

Jeknar.6184:

You don’t necessarily need to take Signet of Might to make it proc out of Signet mastery. Of course, it would make a somewhat unreliable use for the unblockable since it would only come up if you hit a target below 50% (and sometimes you want to blast through blocks sooner). However, I disagree that Signet of Might on the bar is compeltely useless. 180 extra power is far from useless imo plus you can still activate it for the 100 precision for 1min.

Three things. First of all, you don’t need to take Signet of Might, but that’s what babazhook suggested. He was pointing to 12 seconds of unblockable attacks, so I am pointing out the huge downside to that biased promotion of a skill that severely hampers your utility bar.
Second of all, off course, the 180 power is decent. On average warrior builds, it is a ~7% straight up increase in damage (assuming you run 2500 power). This does not way up to the fact that you could, for instance, be running Outrage instead. Which, by the way, makes adrenaline generation even less of a thing, but we’ll get to that in a second.
Third of all, who the hell would activate a skill only to lose 180 power in exchange for 100 precision? When you fight an enemy without blocks, Signet of Might does literally nothing but provide 180 power, which is incredibly poor for a utility skill.

Cygnus.6903:

- Adrenaline generation on hit is completely irrelevant. Adrenaline management is a thing of the past, especially if you take Discipline. Fast Hands+Versatile Rage+Burst Mastery are far better then Furious when it comes to Adrenaline.

Jeknar.6184:

That’s true. Adrenaline generation by discipline is far superior. But we’re talking about not taking Discipline so it kinda need to make up for the downside, no?
Still, I’m not really sold on that one aswell. Last time I ran Strenght instead of Discipline, I felt the lack of Adrenaline. But I didn’t try with Arms.

If you’re taking a traitline and can only talk about making up for downsides, something is definitely off, don’t you think? Discipline Adrenaline generation is far superior, so Arms clearly loses here. The discussion I’m having with babazhook is about pointing out that Arms is vastly inferior to traitlines on meta builds, hence they are meta. We already established Defense and Berserker are mandatory, so any discussion would be between taking Discipline and Arms. When talking Arms vs Str, I would think it to be a closer battle.

Cygnus.6903:

- You talk about ‘near permanent resistance’. As if those 4 seconds off of Healing Signet make all the difference? Really, another theoretical advantage, which amounts to nothing when actually playing the game. Don’t forget, you often want Healing Signet off cooldown to actually, I don’t know, heal?

Jeknar.6184:

I’m pretty sure the build in question here is a mix of Commander+Berserker with high boon duration… And Healing Signet give 6s base, not 4s. Plus, you can push it further than 9s with only Commander Armor (No Weapon or Trinkets), Durability Runes and Fried Dumplings/Gnashblade Mussels. Considering he mention 11s of resistance in his reply to me, I’d say he go even deeper on boon duration than I would.
Also, who the hell press Healing Signet to actually heal? The passive healing from the signet is far superior. Everytime I see a warrior use the signet to heal himself, he is dead even before signet is back up. First thing I learned as warrior is DO NOT PRESS THE HEALING BUTTON. Now we have a exception to that rule if we need resistance but it still apply.

Continuing on my next post because it will exceed 5000 character limit.

This is where either I was unclear, or you misread my post.

I am not talking about the base duration of resistance from HS. I’m talking about him saying he has perma-resistance as if it is an advantage over Discipline. The only advantage you get from picking that traitline, is 4 seconds off the cooldown of HS. This is a very mediocre increase, and certainly does not provide you with substantial extra amounts of resistance compared to when not taking Arms.

About activating HS, again, miscommunication? I was talking about not pressing HS, because you want to heal from it’s passive (see my quote below). The only time when you press it for the heal is when you are certain you will die without the extra few k, a complete last resort. Mind you, this has saved me several times.

Cygnus.6903:

Don’t forget, you often want Healing Signet off cooldown to actually, I don’t know, heal?

Cygnus.6903:

- As a sidenote, when that perma resistance fails (boonsteal/corruption), you don’t have Brawler’s Recovery to aid in condition cleansing. So if you don’t land your burst, you die.

Jeknar.6184:

That’s true, but I don’t think brawler recovery will really save you if you get corrupted and condi bombed either. But I belive that’s why there are other boons, such as the ones from Signet of Rage, going on the build, so they can cover resistance long enough to it make effect….

Brawler’s may or may not save you, but Arms definitely won’t. Again, it proves to be the inferior traitline. Boon covering is a very minor advantage IMO, because without Arms you still get a decent amount of Fury, Retaliation, Stability and Might.

Cygnus.6903:

- Greatly increased access to stability? Are you seriously talking about Dolyak Signet? So you’re taking Dolyak Signet, Signet of Might and Berserker’s Stance? I guess, in your quest to prove conditions are weak, you decided to die to anything power.

Jeknar.6184:

Pretty sure he’s talking about Eternal Champion with Outrage. You get 3s base stability everytime you break out of stun with it (and it have only 10s cd). Coupled with rousing resilience, this can make you really tanky… Wait, I thought everyone ran that already… What I am missing here?

What you’re missing is that Outrage does not come with the Arms traitline, so it is not an advantage over Discipline. He was in fact talking about Dolyak signet, which is baffling, as with Outrage+Eternal Champion, stability from Balanced stance or Dolyak is completely redundant out of large groupfights. Even then, when you don’t take Arms, Balanced Stance is arguably a better skill.

And I take a little pride in helping to popularise Rousing Resilience a while back. I saw it’s potential when it came to warrior survivability before the Adrenal Health buff. But it is definitely not a trait run by everyone. These days, Cleansing Ire is almost mandatory given the condi overload you can expect. Even Last Stand is a great trait.

Cygnus.6903:

- Permanent Swiftness is irrelevant when you get 25% from Warrior’s Sprint. Granted, there is a small speed difference, but WS also cleanses immobilize on movement skills. You haven’t mentioned that, but it is crucial to a warrior’s survivability, and his offensive ability on a melee set as well.

Jeknar.6184:

I belive he don’t miss the immobilize removal because of resistance… Granted, you need to keep the resistance going, and I’m not entirely sold on that one either (in fact I do mention that in my last post). Dogged March kinda help tho, but you would have to drop shield mastery for that. I run GS/LB, so I already run Dogged March by default, but most warriors I see run A+Sh, so I’m not sure if they would give up Shield Mastery like that.

Resistance obviously helps with immobilize, you’ve got a good point here. Again, like the point about Brawler’s Recovery, if it ever gets stripped, an immobilize will shrek you. And Shield Mastery is insanely superior if you use a shield. And out of shield, only Rifle/GS has some place in roaming, all be it suboptimal.

Cygnus.6903:

- Perma Fury is good, Discipline builds only get the Fury from transforming. However, you don’t take Headbutt as a trade-off, which is far superior. Holy kitten, that skill is just too good to be true.

Jeknar.6184:

I agree with you here. Headbutt is too good. Not sure if taking Signet of Rage, even with Signet Mastery, actually pays off. But maybe one can run Headbutt anyway. That would make Resistance easier to be stripped tho.

It pays off, and I actually like the creativity he put into making his personalized build. It’s still inferior to a skill that not only stuns your opponent for 3 seconds, but is also quite fast in doing so (the telegraph is very unwarriorlike), stuns yourself to open up opportunities for Eternal Champion, is a minor gap closer and completely fills up your adrenaline bar on hit. Holy kitten, it is the only elite for warriors right now.

Cygnus.6903:

- 5% damage from bloodlust is trumped by versatile power, which is an added 60 power for 10 seconds every time you swap (which with Fast Hands is often). You can get 6 stacks easily if you have boon duration.

Jeknar.6184:

You called 180 power useless (back in the Signet of might part) and now you trying to make 60 power look useful? Even with 6 stacks that exactly the 180 power you called useless back there. Also, I don’t really swap weapons every 4s to make this kind of use of that trait and I don’t really think anyone does. Plus, if 5% damage is so bad compared to 2 might stacks, why Sigil of Force is so expensive while Sigil of Battle is dirty cheap? I guess there is somenthing in there.

I shouldn’t have used the word useless, but I said that in reference to a fight where your opponent has no blocks. Then it is only 180 power, which is extremely poor for a utility skill, especially on warrior.
And I didn’t refer to versatile power compared to Signet of Might, thats something you are doing here. I am comparing traitlines. So when comparing Versatile power to the 5% damage increase from Bloodlust, Versatile power actually seems superior to me. Even with 4 stacks, which are easily maintained, you get 120 power. This is a ~4,5% flat damage increase on a 2500 power build. So you could effectively say the traits cancel eachother out. Bloodlust arguably has a condition that’s not always easily met to even give the 5% damage increase, either.

Cygnus.6903:

- Vulnerability stacking sounds good on paper, but you won’t get 5 stacks from that trait. Get your facts straight. Even if you have 100% crit, it’s only 33% chance per attack, 8 second duration. You would have to hit everything and very quickly to ever get 5 stacks. So don’t make it better then it is.

Jeknar.6184:

Well, yeah. I guess the vulnerability stacking here is just a minor plus and not really the most amazing of all.

It is just a minor plus. He can tell me to try it all day, but I have, and i don’t need to try it again to see that 5+ stacks is an outlier, not an average.

Cygnus.6903:

Man, all this talking, where it is not hard to see that just Fast Hands beats Arms.

Jeknar.6184:

I still don’t see that. Fast Hands is problably the only thing I would NOT miss in Discipline if it suddenly disapeared.

Anyway, I’ll be testing this build once I get back on the field… Been a while since I last player warrior seriously, so it should be a fun experience. It was entertaining discussion friends. Let’s see how this works.

If Fast Hands it the only thing you would not miss, then you have much to learn, my young Padawan (rewatching all 7 movies IRL, so I couldn’t resist this one).

You may not always want to switch at 5 seconds, but often, you will. This allows for so many things. More on swap sigil effects (this is HUGE), effectively lower cooldowns on skills (as skills on your swapped out set will recharge while you use the next set), Brawler’s Recovery/Versatile Rage effects, the list goes on. You also have a better chance of being able to use the right skill at the right time. I am not kidding when i say I believe it is the single best trait in the game, by far. It’s power level is over 9000.

Where to begin? let us start with "how do you know a thief wears dire? " as apparently some peopele have a problem with that.

It rather easy. It a condition build , check. Your unloads hit a zerker build for around 14k , check. You use unloads against warriors and others with 3k plus armor every day and see that damage drop. Check. It hits that theif fro around the same amount. Check. ? Well he has to be in the same type of armor. I doubt he uses soldiers. There not a lot of condition sets that give that sort of protection .

Next point. “You can only be facing bad theives”. This is a typical argument that defeats itself when it made. Firstly I have well over 10000 hours in game. I am in WvW almost all that time. The odds that every thief I met as being a “bad thief” are astronomically low , just as the odds of someone else unable to kill people in dire meeting only good thieves is as well.

I only consider myself an average player and have established you can kill people in dire with my weaponsets . If I am on a power theif and meet one of those really good enemy power thief players, I also tend to lose. This does not mean that a power set can not kill another power set or that the theif that person plays is OP. It only means he is a better player. Skill is skill and the fact that some of more of it than others does not establish that DIRE op. This topic is afterall about dire and TB.

I have seen some of those links to thieves that people consider highly skilled and I do not know many of them that use Condition builds. There might well be a few but the ones I do see tend to be power and they tend to be able to beat people in with the armor and vitality equivalent of dire.

We have already established that Dire is more “forgiving” just by its nature, but this is also true of a warrior versus a Thief . This does not make “warrior” OP and even power warriors have as much if not more armor and health as a dire thief. These warriors can also be killed by power users.

Dire and TB is not the issue.