Guild Wars 2

Is it just me or are conditions a little bit too strong in WvW?
What happened?

Nick.6972:

Is it just me or are conditions a little bit too strong in WvW?
What happened?

Tell the warriors in your group to wake up and cleanse that stuff.

Solo roaming conditions are OP
For full party-zerg conditions are UP

MiLkZz.4789:

Solo roaming conditions are OP
For full party-zerg conditions are UP

Looks like a balance to me Not the best balance but it would be OP if they ruled it all.

Conditions aren’t OP but frequently the package they come feels OP. Coupling that much damage with a bunker class is a bad design. Taking down a decently played condi-bunker requires a greater degree of skill. Really good condi-bunkers often require numbers to drop.

Not another one of these threads…

One of the biggest balancing problems in this game is that no build should be able to produce large amounts of damage (condition or otherwise) and still be extremely tanky. Unfortunately, it’s been like that for a very long time and further boosted by constantly introducing new equipment stat combinations and rune sets that promote passive play.

Like it or not, this is the direction that has been chosen for GW2.
Adapt or move on.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

One of the biggest balancing problems in this game is that no build should be able to produce large amounts of damage (condition or otherwise) and still be extremely tanky. Unfortunately, it’s been like that for a very long time and further boosted by constantly introducing new equipment stat combinations and rune sets that promote passive play.

Like it or not, this is the direction that has been chosen for GW2.
Adapt or move on.

To be fair, perplexity requires an interrupt, which would be the very definition of active play…. rewarding someone for using a skill at the right time.

I would argue the only reason condi-bunkers builds exist, is to counter the overwhelming number of zerker/burst style builds and classes that have managed to turn a risky full damage build, into a easy to escape and sustain build with traits and runes.

If thieves, mesmers, and warriors were not exploding people in seconds with immunities and avoidance skills, there would be far more hybrid and experiemental builds. But those classes get to be zerker and still have survivability, while some zerker classes get to just die really fast.

People only bunker because that is how you avoid getting 3 shot out of stealth.

The problem is dire, rabid and apothecary gear, a lot of resistance without losing condition damage.

the problem is most players being so bad that they prefer complaining instead of adapting, and while some of us learned to counter it and already moved on to stuff much more powerful, these guys are complaining about something thats not an issue for any decent player/groups anymore.

After my 1 month break returning to WvW I must say that I see no issue with conditions. I am biased though, because I play Mesmer and I can just jump all over the place in stealth, so those necros and engies simply don’t hit me

But I must also say that I was so preoccupied sometimes before to inlcude strong condi removal in my build, that I hurt the effectivity of my build badly. After I came back I didn’t think much about it. Went full glass cannon and slaughter the hack out of condy builds… most of the time :P

Condition is very strong and can be executed on some professions very easily. However, Conditions show their strengths in smal scale battle and that is not what WvW is designed arround. WvW is about Zerg clashin Zerg and stuff, where DmgConditions just get removed too quickly, and only CC conditions (who mostly stay anyway just a short time on your target) have still some effect.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

One of the biggest balancing problems in this game is that no build should be able to produce large amounts of damage (condition or otherwise) and still be extremely tanky.

Not the issue. The problem is being able to produce large amounts of damage and still have extreme damage mitigation. This can include being tanky, but it also includes being stealthed for 80% of the fight, being invulnerable, and over abundance of control effects (knockback, pull, knockdown, etc). Any weapon or class that is capable of avoiding damage through these means needs to have the weapons that cause them nerfed in damage. Hammer needs to do way less damage with warrior, invuln for mist form and F4 shatter need to be reworked, and stealth needs to have duration cut in half, or more ways to get the thief out of stealth.

Everybody can relate to just minding your own business, rotating camera around scoping out enemies, then, bang, out of nowhere you’re stunned by basilisk venom, 5k cloak and dagger, invisible thief so you can’t interrupt the chain or escape because of the stun, then 6k backstab. before you can even react the thief has either healed for stealth, cloak and dagger again, etc. it’s just ridiculous.

5 necros stack 15 bleeds with 5 skills…
1 warrior removes the bleeds from himself and 5 others using 1 skill…

Spicyhash.7605:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

One of the biggest balancing problems in this game is that no build should be able to produce large amounts of damage (condition or otherwise) and still be extremely tanky.

Not the issue. The problem is being able to produce large amounts of damage and still have extreme damage mitigation. This can include being tanky, but it also includes being stealthed for 80% of the fight, being invulnerable, and over abundance of control effects (knockback, pull, knockdown, etc). Any weapon or class that is capable of avoiding damage through these means needs to have the weapons that cause them nerfed in damage. Hammer needs to do way less damage with warrior, invuln for mist form and F4 shatter need to be reworked, and stealth needs to have duration cut in half, or more ways to get the thief out of stealth.

Everybody can relate to just minding your own business, rotating camera around scoping out enemies, then, bang, out of nowhere you’re stunned by basilisk venom, 5k cloak and dagger, invisible thief so you can’t interrupt the chain or escape because of the stun, then 6k backstab. before you can even react the thief has either healed for stealth, cloak and dagger again, etc. it’s just ridiculous.

Mitigation abilities and traits are a separate issue entirely, but I very much agree with you. I’d personally love to see all forms of active mitigation have their durations cut dramatically across the board so that timing and skill would become more of a thing.

My original post was specifically referring to build options and baseline stats being so generous. You can build very heavily into power or condition damage and still have over 3000 toughness. In my opinion, things like PVT shouldn’t exist because it takes away the idea of having to make sacrifices for damage or survivability. But that’s simply how this game operates and I absolutely use PVT on some of my power characters.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Spicyhash.7605:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

One of the biggest balancing problems in this game is that no build should be able to produce large amounts of damage (condition or otherwise) and still be extremely tanky.

Not the issue. The problem is being able to produce large amounts of damage and still have extreme damage mitigation. This can include being tanky, but it also includes being stealthed for 80% of the fight, being invulnerable, and over abundance of control effects (knockback, pull, knockdown, etc). Any weapon or class that is capable of avoiding damage through these means needs to have the weapons that cause them nerfed in damage. Hammer needs to do way less damage with warrior, invuln for mist form and F4 shatter need to be reworked, and stealth needs to have duration cut in half, or more ways to get the thief out of stealth.

Everybody can relate to just minding your own business, rotating camera around scoping out enemies, then, bang, out of nowhere you’re stunned by basilisk venom, 5k cloak and dagger, invisible thief so you can’t interrupt the chain or escape because of the stun, then 6k backstab. before you can even react the thief has either healed for stealth, cloak and dagger again, etc. it’s just ridiculous.

Mitigation abilities and traits are a separate issue entirely, but I very much agree with you. I’d personally love to see all forms of active mitigation have their durations cut dramatically across the board so that timing and skill would become more of a thing.

My original post was specifically referring to build options and baseline stats being so generous. You can build very heavily into power or condition damage and still have over 3000 toughness. In my opinion, things like PVT shouldn’t exist because it takes away the idea of having to make sacrifices for damage or survivability. But that’s simply how this game operates and I absolutely use PVT on some of my power characters.

Yes because now it too hard to kill enemy. Thief need to hit like 3 times when enemy should die one hit.

erm…dont stand in the well of corruption, have cleansers, have warriors shout heals…there is soo much to counter condis. in an organized guild group barely anyone runs condi bunkers as they dont deal enough dmg. i swapped to power necro and power mesmer because of the meta. plus even with 1800 toughness u will still be crit by backstab for 13k. plus u might wanna focus the necros first as they can really destroy your fully buffed zerg.

selan.8354:

erm…dont stand in the well of corruption, have cleansers, have warriors shout heals…there is soo much to counter condis. in an organized guild group barely anyone runs condi bunkers as they dont deal enough dmg. i swapped to power necro and power mesmer because of the meta. plus even with 1800 toughness u will still be crit by backstab for 13k. plus u might wanna focus the necros first as they can really destroy your fully buffed zerg.

I don’t think that can happen…. an 8-9k backstab, maybe 10k under extreme circumstances…. but not 13k. You would need to be really low in toughness to see that kind of a backstab hit, or with lots of vulnerability on you.

Any other game I have played condition specs were considered dps and you have to sacrifice survivalbility for conditions to hit hard.

At least give them a paired stat that they have to work with like crit chance or something for them to be effective. Power has to be paired with crit chance and crit damage but condi just has condi.

Conditions are only powerful against you when you don’t bother to invest in mitigating them. Invest in toughness, vitality and/or healing gear to mitigate direct damage, invest with your traits and skills to mitigate condition damage. Ignore either at your own peril.

I’m by no means the best player, however I am playing Healway Guard (Shouts remove 2 conditions), and I still find it hard to remove all the conditions.

Dirac.1307:

Conditions are only powerful against you when you don’t bother to invest in mitigating them. Invest in toughness, vitality and/or healing gear to mitigate direct damage, invest with your traits and skills to mitigate condition damage. Ignore either at your own peril.

I will take “What is Cool Down for $400, Alex”

The enemy is a zombie apocalypse and they have armor,
Anet gives you a choice of a revolver (on hit damage) or a flamethrower (condition),
Keeping in mind the enemy has armor on,
What would you choose to fight said zombie apocalypse?

(solo to 5 man party roaming)

It’s because thanks to Torment and a myriad of new Runes and Sigils every Condition class can build to apply 3+ Conditions via auto-attack…..and many more once they use additional abilities.

And all that of course coupled with the +40% Condition duration food…which Power builds have nothing remotely comparable to.

Oh and they can also build for maximum tankiness AND high condition damage.

In the early days a Condition-build might have been able to apply 5 conditions at any time. Today the same build can fill you up with conditions in a split second, multiple times per fight. And all that with barely telegraphed attacks.

To be fair though Conditions are broken on the other end too, by being useless in downed-state, dealing almost no damage against doors and bosses and being weaker in PvE.

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

Dee Jay.2460:

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

WWW forum. We should talk about www not wannabe sPvP in www maps. Conditions are underpowered in current www combat.

Junkpile.7439:

Dee Jay.2460:

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

WWW forum. We should talk about www not wannabe sPvP in www maps. Conditions are underpowered in current www combat.

Nope they’re not. WvW isn’t just about running zergs because why then debate anything but Guardians, Warriors and Necros?

And Conditions aren’t underpowered. They can just be easily cleansed because every Guardian is forced to run group-cleanses because without them Conditions would kitten on everyone.

If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.

Everyone always forgets that power builds can not only increase their crit chance, but also(ermehgerd) their crit damage D= D= D= You can’t clear all your conditions you say? Well I can’t clear all of your raw DPS either so I guess we are even, other than the fact that cond spec can get 40% duration from food. Oh wait… You can get -40% duration too? ER….MEH….GERD…. I really hate this entire debate. 9 times out of 10 it’s a warrior complaining also.

Dee Jay.2460:

Junkpile.7439:

Dee Jay.2460:

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

WWW forum. We should talk about www not wannabe sPvP in www maps. Conditions are underpowered in current www combat.

Nope they’re not. WvW isn’t just about running zergs because why then debate anything but Guardians, Warriors and Necros?

And Conditions aren’t underpowered. They can just be easily cleansed because every Guardian is forced to run group-cleanses because without them Conditions would kitten on everyone.

If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.

As opposed to cond spec dedicating all of their traits to applying them?

borrok.9267:

Dee Jay.2460:

Junkpile.7439:

Dee Jay.2460:

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

WWW forum. We should talk about www not wannabe sPvP in www maps. Conditions are underpowered in current www combat.

Nope they’re not. WvW isn’t just about running zergs because why then debate anything but Guardians, Warriors and Necros?

And Conditions aren’t underpowered. They can just be easily cleansed because every Guardian is forced to run group-cleanses because without them Conditions would kitten on everyone.

If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.

As opposed to cond spec dedicating all of their traits to applying them?

What are you saying? I can’t make sense of your comment in this context.

My point is Conditions are overpowered to the point that stacking massive amounts of counters isn’t optional, it’s mandatory.

Before condition bombing was a thing, Warriors might have occasionally opted to play without Berserker Stance or Cleansing Ire. But not today.

Conditions have resulted in an arms race where due to their power, they have forced everyone to run massive counters. Everyone who does not stack these counters is completely steamrolled with little chance to fight back.

The irony is that Conditions builds might actually do BETTER if they were nerfed because people might feel less compelled to stack condition counters.

Maybe the odd Warrior might start running without Cleansing Ire or try Bullscharge instead of Berserker Stance. It might not happen immediately, but eventually it will. The meta evolves and if you make people feel less pigeonholed into stacking condition cleanses then maybe you might come out on top.

Dee Jay.2460:

borrok.9267:

Dee Jay.2460:

Junkpile.7439:

Dee Jay.2460:

But none of that is an excuse to have them being so ridiculously overpowered and dominant as they are in current PvP combat.

WWW forum. We should talk about www not wannabe sPvP in www maps. Conditions are underpowered in current www combat.

Nope they’re not. WvW isn’t just about running zergs because why then debate anything but Guardians, Warriors and Necros?

And Conditions aren’t underpowered. They can just be easily cleansed because every Guardian is forced to run group-cleanses because without them Conditions would kitten on everyone.

If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.

As opposed to cond spec dedicating all of their traits to applying them?

What are you saying? I can’t make sense of your comment in this context.

My point is Conditions are overpowered to the point that stacking massive amounts of counters isn’t optional, it’s mandatory.

Before condition bombing was a thing, Warriors might have occasionally opted to play without Berserker Stance or Cleansing Ire. But not today.

Conditions have resulted in an arms race where due to their power, they have forced everyone to run massive counters. Everyone who does not stack these counters is completely steamrolled with little chance to fight back.

The irony is that Conditions builds might actually do BETTER if they were nerfed because people might feel less compelled to stack condition counters.

Maybe the odd Warrior might start running without Cleansing Ire or try Bullscharge instead of Berserker Stance. It might not happen immediately, but eventually it will. The meta evolves and if you make people feel less pigeonholed into stacking condition cleanses then maybe you might come out on top.

If I got some sort of reliable damage mitigation on par with what cleansing warriors have(as well as damage mitigation) I wouldn’t care. To your question – “If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.”

Dee Jay.2460:

If Conditions weren’t so overpowered then maybe not every class would have to dedicate a third of their traits and a third of their utilities just to cleanse them.

I am not doing that.

However, you have to dedicate a certain ammount of skills and traits to medigate any ammount of dmg anyway. You can also dedicate stats, like Vitatlity, to give you a better fighting chance against Conditions, while toughness gives you a better fighting chance against direct dmg. But, you have to think about a defens against both of them. Or you don’t care about that and go for full glass cannon. That does work well on some professions, other’s are rather easy to pick, if they are glass.

To go without a condition cleanse and without a stun breaker is a huge mistake in any form of PvP. And so I have condi remove on heal (traited) and 2 stun breakers (as mesmer it is easy to pick vialble stun breakers). And it works well for me. I even have a utility slot to play arround with, because I don’t really need it. And I have to fight the same condition builds as you have to.

The problem is this game is setup for extremes.

The TTK in this game is extremely low unless you invest in health/toughness. Even when you invest in them the TTK is still low for most classes/builds. Having a class start at 10k hp with light armor is absolutely INSANE considering that a berserking thief can basically one/two shot that person. It’s not like thieves are outliers either, there are tons of abilities/classes that can put out insane damage(considering some classes starting health) even against toughness stacked opponents. Sure those 10k crits might only be 5k but if you only have 10k hp it’s still too much damage. That’s why everyone HAS to stack health/toughness and condition builds provide that best for most classes, some can build for power and still have the survivability they need.

Conditions get extreme too. On one side you have skills/traits/etc that can fully clear all conditions, it doesn’t matter that your opponent spent 10 attacks stacking 20 bleeds on you, they are just all gone. To compensate for the fact that 1 type of condition will get cleared quickly and unable to do their damage you need to spam multiple conditions. This is how the necromancer suddenly became viable, they got access to spammable burning and that allows them to get through cleanses and do damage, probably way too much damage. Combine that with torment sigil and perplexity runes and suddenly they are dropping every damaging condition on you constantly. It’s a sad state of affairs when the condition specs need to “burst” people down.

The condition fix is going to require a lot of work. First off they need to make all damaging conditions stackable(poison/burning), but make it harder to stack them. That means making a lot of attacks that apply 3 bleeds only apply 1. Conditions then need to be restricted so certain classes only get certain conditions(no torment, bleed, etc on crit, no perplexity runes), which will kill condition burst.Then removals need to be toned down as well to say 1 stack of each condition, which will remove CC conditions completely but leave stacked damaging ones still ticking. This way cleanses aren’t a complete shut down of condition specs, the condition burst is gone, and condition specs will be played the way they are supposed to be.

Then we just need a complete rebalance of power damage. Either base health needs jacked way up or damage needs to come down. Perhaps somewhere in between with vitality giving more health per point? I also think skills need to scale more based on your condition damage/power, this way a condition spec doesn’t still do decent direct damage and power builds don’t do decent bleed damage. Perhaps healing power could be worked into conditions somehow? Either by reducing their damage directly like toughness or increasing the number of stacks a cleanse can remove?

Distaste.4801:

This is how the necromancer suddenly became viable, they got access to spammable burning and that allows them to get through cleanses and do damage, probably way too much damage. Combine that with torment sigil and perplexity runes and suddenly they are dropping every damaging condition on you constantly. It’s a sad state of affairs when the condition specs need to “burst” people down.

The Necromancer did not become sudenly viable. It became just suddenly easy to make them viable. I ran a necromancer before the big ballance patch (the one that boosted necros so much). I ran it with a rabid condition dmg build and I regularly defeated mutliple opponents at the same time while roaming in WvW. People weren’t used to a threatening condition Necromancer.

Now that Condition Dmg became famous, every1 is using it (So it became boring to me^^). But it is not overpowered per se. Ppl simply panic. Not every condition is worth a condition cleanse. If one could counter every condition, then a condition build wouldn’t deal any dmg. And you still can dodge, evade and invul attacks. Learn how those professions work and learn, which skill you should try to avoid/counter. From what I read in this thread, it seems that many don’t know how condition builds work and then it is natural, that they seem overpowered.

That’s too simplistic a look at it.

The fundamental difference you need to understand is that unlike Power builds, Conditions scale with each other.

I.e. the more different Conditions you can stack, the more dangerous they become.

Stacking 10 Bleeds might be 10 times more dangerous than stacking 1 Bleed, but stacking 1 Bleed, Burning, Poison, Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Torment, Confusion, Immobilize, Fear is many times more lethal.

Conditions are exasperated by numerous issues:

• The addition of Torment helped mask existing Conditions with an additional DPS Condition.
• Rare Veggie Pizza adds a disproportionate amount of Power to Conditions.
• Conditions previously exclusive to certain builds are now accessible to everyone (Confusion)
• Thanks to additional Runes and Sigils ANet has made it easier than ever to stack various Conditions.

These changes occurred outside of any class-balance changes and probably affected the whole “Condition Meta” more than anything else.

I do agree that certain rune sets and food buffs make conditions way stronger. A 40% duration buff is a stronger boost to condition builds, than anything a power build can be boosted. And the condition masking is strong, I agree. However, while that sounds very strong on paper, I don’t see the actual problem in the game. When I run my condition necro, I win most of the times. When I fight conditions builds on my Mesmer, I also win most of the times. That is nowhere near a proper statistic, but it makes it hard for me to understand the problem other ppl have. The only problem I had was with perplexety Engeneers before the nerf for the perplexety runes. But even then I started getting the hang of how to fight them.

Dee Jay.2460:

That’s too simplistic a look at it.

The fundamental difference you need to understand is that unlike Power builds, Conditions scale with each other.

I.e. the more different Conditions you can stack, the more dangerous they become.

Stacking 10 Bleeds might be 10 times more dangerous than stacking 1 Bleed, but stacking 1 Bleed, Burning, Poison, Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Torment, Confusion, Immobilize, Fear is many times more lethal.

Conditions are exasperated by numerous issues:

• The addition of Torment helped mask existing Conditions with an additional DPS Condition.
• Rare Veggie Pizza adds a disproportionate amount of Power to Conditions.
• Conditions previously exclusive to certain builds are now accessible to everyone (Confusion)
• Thanks to additional Runes and Sigils ANet has made it easier than ever to stack various Conditions.

These changes occurred outside of any class-balance changes and probably affected the whole “Condition Meta” more than anything else.

1 stack of each does nearly no damage aside from burning, and goes away within seconds. Also you get a food that reduces cond duration by the same amount, so idk what you are complaining about.

The main issue with condi builds isn’t that they are too strong in zerg (it is true they are UP there due to so many building to cleanse). The main issue isn’t that they are too strong in roaming (while engi is a good roamer necro is bait for anything more than 3 people).

The main issue are 1 on 1 and range. Condi are a nightmare for so many classes it isn’t funny in a duel. However if we get realistic about it one guardian built to handle conditions will have the capability to handle condis for the group. the game is not balanced around 1 on 1 so there is that too.

So in reality the real issue is that condi builds can build defensive but spike damage at range. That is really all there is to it. Condi builds do not require gap closing.

However, what condi builds are actually good at gap closing? Condi necro is bad at is, as is pu mesmer ,P/D thief, engineer, and ele. Ranger S/W + SB or Axe can gap close but due to limited range and tricky sword mechanics won’t be able to vs any roamer build. The only class that can gap close and keep up the condi damage is none other than warrior running a sword.

Truth is as far as WvW goes where you can get -40% condition duration food, where the meta is zerging, an the gear creep is noticeable on both sides I think conditions are likely balanced.

borrok.9267:

Dee Jay.2460:

That’s too simplistic a look at it.

The fundamental difference you need to understand is that unlike Power builds, Conditions scale with each other.

I.e. the more different Conditions you can stack, the more dangerous they become.

Stacking 10 Bleeds might be 10 times more dangerous than stacking 1 Bleed, but stacking 1 Bleed, Burning, Poison, Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Torment, Confusion, Immobilize, Fear is many times more lethal.

Conditions are exasperated by numerous issues:

• The addition of Torment helped mask existing Conditions with an additional DPS Condition.
• Rare Veggie Pizza adds a disproportionate amount of Power to Conditions.
• Conditions previously exclusive to certain builds are now accessible to everyone (Confusion)
• Thanks to additional Runes and Sigils ANet has made it easier than ever to stack various Conditions.

These changes occurred outside of any class-balance changes and probably affected the whole “Condition Meta” more than anything else.

1 stack of each does nearly no damage aside from burning, and goes away within seconds. Also you get a food that reduces cond duration by the same amount, so idk what you are complaining about.

Have you lost the ability to read? He is talking about both +/- condition duration foods. Point being it shouldn’t be mandatory to run the -40% food just so you don’t get roflstomped by condition specs. Having them both give +/- 10% brings them in line with other foods and will likely make people drop the -% food altogether and pick something more suitable for their build. Thus condition specs get +10% and not 60% of the initial 140% duration, whatever that is, too lazy to do the math.

Edit: It seems I’m the one that has lost the ability to read as I’m replying in the wrong thread

Dee Jay.2460:

That’s too simplistic a look at it.

The fundamental difference you need to understand is that unlike Power builds, Conditions scale with each other.

I.e. the more different Conditions you can stack, the more dangerous they become.

Stacking 10 Bleeds might be 10 times more dangerous than stacking 1 Bleed, but stacking 1 Bleed, Burning, Poison, Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Torment, Confusion, Immobilize, Fear is many times more lethal.

Conditions are exasperated by numerous issues:

• The addition of Torment helped mask existing Conditions with an additional DPS Condition.
• Rare Veggie Pizza adds a disproportionate amount of Power to Conditions.
• Conditions previously exclusive to certain builds are now accessible to everyone (Confusion)
• Thanks to additional Runes and Sigils ANet has made it easier than ever to stack various Conditions.

These changes occurred outside of any class-balance changes and probably affected the whole “Condition Meta” more than anything else.

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

No…. There isn’t…. But there is a food that gives you 100 precision and 10% critical damage, or 10% critical damage and 200 power on kill. Both of these can give a massive boost to damage.

What did condition classes get (other than duration food)? Oh thats right, food with 100 condition damage at most (a MASSIVE 5 extra damage per bleed), and some secondary stat…. People use rare veggie because there is no even remotely comparable condition damage alternative food.

I don’t disagree that compared to all the other condition duration increases, the condition duration food is by far the most value, but that is balanced by the fact that you can counter it directly with a -40% food choice, and the fact we have no alternative offensive food.

Be glad you can take melandru and -40% food and faceroll any condition class with a minor amount of ability, while also having the option of taking a more offensive food if you want to live dangerously. Condition classes only got one option.

Rennoko.5731:

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

Is there a trait line in every class that gives an overall 30% boost to condi duration? Yes.

Are there more runes that give more duration than reduction? Yes.

Is there a Sigil than increases duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it? Yes.

Is there a weapon line that gives an increase to duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it. Yes.

There are far more ways to increase duration than reduce. Bumping power by 300 is in most situations less than a 10% boost in overall damage. Bumping Condition Damage or Condition Duration by the same amount has a much bigger impact on overall damage output than power or precision.

Straegen.2938:

Bumping power by 300 is in most situations less than a 10% boost in overall damage. Bumping Condition Damage or Condition Duration by the same amount has a much bigger impact on overall damage output than power or precision.

This is wrong.

Power increases damage proportionally, 1% more power increases direct damage by 1%. This is easily proved from the direct damage equation found on the GW2 wiki.

At anything below 3000 power (power, not attack), 300 power will increase your direct damage by more than 10%.

Condition damage, by comparison, scales much worse than power. This is easily computed from the condition damage equations. For example, you can compute the increase in bleed damage using this equation:

% change = (new_cond_dmg – old_cond_dmg) / (old_cond_dmg + 850)

From this it is obvious that bleed damage scales significantly worse than power’s proportional increase.

I see so many naive posts on the forums about how condition damage scales better than power, which is provably wrong. The problem is very few people do the math and understand that condition damage mathematically scales very poorly in comparison to power until you have unattainably high condition damage (i.e. enough to make the + 850 in the denominator of the formula above insignificant).

Straegen.2938:

Rennoko.5731:

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

Is there a trait line in every class that gives an overall 30% boost to condi duration? Yes.

Are there more runes that give more duration than reduction? Yes.

Of course, would be something that you can make the conditions last even shorter. They melt of people in the current meta.

Straegen.2938:

Rennoko.5731:

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

Is there a trait line in every class that gives an overall 30% boost to condi duration? Yes.

Are there more runes that give more duration than reduction? Yes.

Is there a Sigil than increases duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it? Yes.

Is there a weapon line that gives an increase to duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it. Yes.

There are far more ways to increase duration than reduce. Bumping power by 300 is in most situations less than a 10% boost in overall damage. Bumping Condition Damage or Condition Duration by the same amount has a much bigger impact on overall damage output than power or precision.

And toughness, and boon duration, and power, and precision, and crit damage, and vitality… Your point has no validity because A) Power has more damage options. The power options relate to more damage over their condition counterpart. C) You don’t seem to understand the math, similar to the OP.

borrok.9267:

Straegen.2938:

Rennoko.5731:

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

Is there a trait line in every class that gives an overall 30% boost to condi duration? Yes.

Are there more runes that give more duration than reduction? Yes.

Is there a Sigil than increases duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it? Yes.

Is there a weapon line that gives an increase to duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it. Yes.

There are far more ways to increase duration than reduce. Bumping power by 300 is in most situations less than a 10% boost in overall damage. Bumping Condition Damage or Condition Duration by the same amount has a much bigger impact on overall damage output than power or precision.

And toughness, and boon duration, and power, and precision, and crit damage, and vitality… Your point has no validity because A) Power has more damage options. The power options relate to more damage over their condition counterpart. C) You don’t seem to understand the math, similar to the OP.

Gotta love how you rely to mathematics without actually providing any mathematics in your post. Might as well refer to The Bible next time.

Anyway, I don’t think the issue is necessarily condition damage itself. It’s also the existence of traits such as dhoom fire that procs powerful conditions in a way that they cannot be avoided.

Master of Timespace.2548:

borrok.9267:

Straegen.2938:

Rennoko.5731:

You sound like your one-man-crusade against conditions must continue…

Is there a food out there that reduces the physical damage I take by 40%? How about 30%? 20% maybe???? That is what your -40% food does to me if I don’t take rare veggie.

Is there a trait line in every class that gives an overall 30% boost to condi duration? Yes.

Are there more runes that give more duration than reduction? Yes.

Is there a Sigil than increases duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it? Yes.

Is there a weapon line that gives an increase to duration but not a corresponding one to reduce it. Yes.

There are far more ways to increase duration than reduce. Bumping power by 300 is in most situations less than a 10% boost in overall damage. Bumping Condition Damage or Condition Duration by the same amount has a much bigger impact on overall damage output than power or precision.

And toughness, and boon duration, and power, and precision, and crit damage, and vitality… Your point has no validity because A) Power has more damage options. The power options relate to more damage over their condition counterpart. C) You don’t seem to understand the math, similar to the OP.

Gotta love how you rely to mathematics without actually providing any mathematics in your post. Might as well refer to The Bible next time.

Gotta love how a comment about not understanding the math at the end is a relying point. With several people explaining why he is wrong, and right before my comment even explaining the math and citing a source to where it is posted, I shouldn’t have to give a lesson on how damage is scaled. My ending comment should be one of those hints to go look.

“Anyway, I don’t think the issue is necessarily condition damage itself. It’s also the existence of traits such as dhoom fire that procs powerful conditions in a way that they cannot be avoided.” – no one likes dhuumfire and necro has suffered unthought out nerfs because of it. The arguments regarding conditions have pretty much all left out what THEY get for boosts and forget how many cleanses there are etc etc. The food complaint is another good one. This debate is beaten into the ground and it revolves around the same group of people. I gave up conditions at the last necro nerf, but will still defend them. DS build kills faster than conditions anyway.

borrok.9267:

Made me lol reading that. Love how sensitive people are these days, can’t even take being wrong.

I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, I’m saying you’re a condescending piece of kitten, see the difference?

WvW suffers from massive power creep: food buffs, Bloodlust, Guard Leech, World bonuses, ascended gear. The PvE gear choices make it worse. Some examples are: Dire gear (must be the worst addition so far), Perplexity runes (somewhat contained now). Then there is PvE traits and skills (Dhuumfire especially). All this comes togther to make conditions over the top.

Reworking Guard Leech (even PvE does not offer such powerful buffs) and Bloodlust would be a good start. Restricting gear another good step (especially things like Dire). Capping gear at Exotic level a relief. Making stacking weapon sigils only work off player character kills would be another step in the right direction.

There is so many things that could be done to improve the quality of the game and combat but I’m afraid we’ll never see it.