Guild Wars 2

As most of us know, conditions are coming more in to play in WVW. We all remember the old days of zerker this and zerker that where physical damage mattered most in most scenarios. Because of those times we had boons that were very effective vs physical damage. These boons I am talking about are aegis, protection, and retaliation. Now that condition builds are more effective then before. We see less of a lack luster of applying aegis, protection, and retaliation. Because protection and retaliation isn’t effected by conditions. Some may argue that aegis can be used against conditions but isn’t as substantial a benefit when applied against physical damage. It is true there is a new boon called resistance, that nullify’s the effects of conditions on you. But isn’t widely spread on all classes like the boons aegis, protection, and retaliation is. Now to the point of my post! If every one had a choice to choose one of these changes. what would you choose and why?

1. Making protection work vs conditions.
2. Making retaliation on a small dmg scale work vs conditions.
3. Making aegis remove 1 stack off a random condition.
4. Apply the new boon called resistance to all classes.
5. All of the above.
6. Content with no changes to boons vs conditions.

While I hate condition builds personally, having to many counters to them makes them unusable and ineffective.

Lionwait.4815:

As most of us know, conditions are coming more in to play in WVW. We all remember the old days of zerker this and zerker that where physical damage mattered most in most scenarios. Because of those times we had boons that were very effective vs physical damage. These boons I am talking about are aegis, protection, and retaliation. Now that condition builds are more effective then before. We see less of a lack luster of applying aegis, protection, and retaliation. Because protection and retaliation isn’t effected by conditions. Some may argue that aegis can be used against conditions but isn’t as substantial a benefit when applied against physical damage. It is true there is a new boon called resistance, that nullify’s the effects of conditions on you. But isn’t widely spread on all classes like the boons aegis, protection, and retaliation is. Now to the point of my post! If every one had a choice to choose one of these changes. what would you choose and why?

1. Making protection work vs conditions.
2. Making retaliation on a small dmg scale work vs conditions.
3. Making aegis remove 1 stack off a random condition.
4. Apply the new boon called resistance to all classes.
5. All of the above.
6. Content with no changes to boons vs conditions.

Hmm

I could have sworn retal already works against condis, at least sometimes against some, in particular, i got hit by a LOT of damage everytime i plopped chaos storm or feedback on a zerg last night, and my feedback causes confusion, so i took a ton of retal damage, got downed from it in fact more then once.

aegis already works vs conditions, except necro marks from some necros and some very specific ones which have to be specifically traited to be ublockable. aegis entirely blocks application, just like power based damage, it can block 1-2 stacks, just like it can block a glancing blow, or it can block your major ability (the big stacks) just like it can block a major crit or F skill.

as far as aegis removing 1 condi, i disagree with that. in fact, i would like to see far less aoe condi removal and less passive abilities and instead far more individual active condi removal abilities, this would help to balance things a lot, make condis more useful in largescale where they are often ineffective, while making them less OP in small scale where they are too effective. if this were to happen it will be up to each individual players skill and timing etc. rather then hiding in aoe spammed cleanses.

as far as resistance goes, wait until about a month or so after HoT launches. remember, not all specs are even in the game yet, and a lot of changes are still happening. we do not know where the revenant, chronomancers, etc. will fit into the meta. my personal hop is that i will be able to run frontline on a hammer engi, but thats just a personal thought.

dont forget that a-net may be well aware of small scale OP condis, but unlike us, is also aware of what is coming with expansion which may swing the balance yet again.

last but not least, i been playing power builds for last x years in this game, i see no problems whatsoever with the switch. in fact, i very much welcome any changes that bring GWEN meta closer to the grave and let something else grow and evolve in its place. and since we’ve been doing 3 years or so on power builds, its only fair that its now turn for condis for 3 years as well.

Vulnerability triggers for conditions and so should protection.

Entenkommando.5208:

Vulnerability triggers for conditions and so should protection.

This has been mentioned before by others as well as myself, and I find d it to be a good idea. I think the vulnerability change sets a good precedent for allowing protection to effect conditions.

Tongku.5326:

I could have sworn retal already works against condis, at least sometimes against some, in particular, i got hit by a LOT of damage everytime i plopped chaos storm or feedback on a zerg last night, and my feedback causes confusion, so i took a ton of retal damage, got downed from it in fact more then once.

No retal doesn’t work on conditions. You may be getting confused by perplexity runes or guardian applying burn to you by hitting them.

Tongku.5326:

as far as aegis removing 1 condi, i disagree with that. in fact, i would like to see far less aoe condi removal and less passive abilities and instead far more individual active condi removal abilities, this would help to balance things a lot, make condis more useful in largescale where they are often ineffective, while making them less OP in small scale where they are too effective. if this were to happen it will be up to each individual players skill and timing etc. rather then hiding in aoe spammed cleanses.

I like this idea. I agree on the less aoe condition removal facter.

In general they should work on making as many boons as possible work for and against both conditions and power damage. Strongly dislike the design of separating several that way. The same goes for Stats btw, Really irks me that several stats are useless (healing power), only functional against one damage type (toughness), or just a stop-gap measure (vitality). Poor design.

I love this idea

MAKE IT SO

As someones said above, wait until HoT. The games mechanic on condi is broken at the moment.

Fuzzion.2504:

As someones said above, wait until HoT. The games mechanic on condi is broken at the moment.

Waiting for HOT is one thing but anet has showed us a lot of the new trait lines and weapons. So we do have some for knowledge of what to expect. Even if they give us new runes and sigils that give the new resistance boon it wont synchronize because sigils and runes effects are random. And there are already sigils and runes that remove conditions. Hell! At lest with physical damage the state toughness is a defense but is worthless vs condition damage. Lets say they give us new stats with HOT. Main state vitality miner stats power and ferocity. That way we have a natural defense vs condition damage just like toughness does vs physical damage. But if they do that you’ll just see necro’s even more powerful with more health and more green bar health. This is why I’m pointing out that boons need a bit of changing. Because whatever they do with adding stuff it wont synchronize like the physical damage system does. I could understand your point in waiting for HOT if I saw the new boon resistance in the new trait lines. But there isn’t as much as their should be if at all any, and for an example just look at the new grand master trait line for guardians “hunters fortification” it gives protection when using virtues. I would have expected that to be the new resistance boon not protection. How can a guardian tank with the lowest health pool and having no defense vs condition damage? Yes they can remove conditions but even that is limited. And even that is dependent on when and what conditions to focus on removing. It only takes 1 second for 1\3 of a guardians health pool to deplete by missing 6 stacks of burning. At lest if they change the protection boon to effect conditions it will give more of a window of time for most classes to pick and choose what conditions to remove or even just giving them the time to remove them. Right now the real problem is that there isn’t a big enough window of time to counter the effects when conditions are stacked upon one self. The same problem goes with ground targeting skills. There should be a limit on how many ground targeting skills should hit a person. But that is another topic.

I don’t know what your using to justify the idea that the Guardian has no ability to deal with condition damage. They have some of the best capabilities to deal with condition damage. Not only that, but they have some of the best option for dealing with their entire groups condition cleansing.

coglin.1867:

I don’t know what your using to justify the idea that the Guardian has no ability to deal with condition damage. They have some of the best capabilities to deal with condition damage. Not only that, but they have some of the best option for dealing with their entire groups condition cleansing.

I already did explain this but I’ll say it again in other words. Guardians CAN deal with conditions but CAN’T deal with condition damage. My POINT being, even a guardian that is good at clearing conditions has a hard time with condition damage because of the small window of time that a stack of 5 confess can do. This is stressing my MAIN POINT that there is more defense vs physical damage then condition damage. So allowing protection boon to effect condition damage would open that small window of time making the game play based off of choose not on effect. Comprende?

Repeating the same thing in multiple post does not make it have more meaning. Half the ways you list to negate physical damage also negate skills that apply conditions for the most part. Not to mention that I have already stated very clearly that I support the idea of protection effecting condition damage, both in this thread and in my creation of a similar thread months ago. Comprende?

All I am saying is that you stated some things in your argument that were inaccurate. Comprende? Protection and toughness are literally the only aspects a guardian has that negate direct damage and not condition damage in most cases. Comprende?

Fuzzion.2504:

As someones said above, wait until HoT. The games mechanic on condi is broken at the moment.

Why should we believe the condi/boon issue will be any different in an expansion when the state of the core game has been altered to this degree?

Kamara.4187:

Fuzzion.2504:

As someones said above, wait until HoT. The games mechanic on condi is broken at the moment.

Why should we believe the condi/boon issue will be any different in an expansion when the state of the core game has been altered to this degree?

For starters, one of the recent revenant builds brings 888 point party regen in spvp, i cant even think how far it will get scaled in wvw or pve with other effects such as foods, wrench consumables, etc. + combo effects from other party members. will it hit 1200s ? 1500s ? no idea.

that right there alone is a HUGE team buff against condis, and we just dont know what else is in store for us.

there are far more ways to counter condis then just condi removal as illustrated by example above, you’ll still take the burst but eliminate the sustained nearly completely. how would you like to eliminate sustained completely from a power build ? and i do mean completely, as in zip, zero, nada, you opponent will be immune to you.

Tongku.5326:

For starters, one of the recent revenant builds brings 888 point party regen in spvp, i cant even think how far it will get scaled in wvw or pve with other effects such as foods, wrench consumables, etc. + combo effects from other party members. will it hit 1200s ? 1500s ? no idea.
that right there alone is a HUGE team buff against condis, and we just dont know what else is in store for us.
there are far more ways to counter condis then just condi removal as illustrated by example above, you’ll still take the burst but eliminate the sustained nearly completely. how would you like to eliminate sustained completely from a power build ? and i do mean completely, as in zip, zero, nada, you opponent will be immune to you

Healing is healing and I wouldn’t specify it to being a counter to conditions. Its more a counter to over all damage or and DEATH. Your statement about “more ways to counter conditions then just condition removal”. Isn’t really specifying to anything other then yes we can dodge, yes we can run like hell out of range of enemy condition skills. Hell! why even fight? But all that applies to over all damage and is very broad and not so specific on what a true counter to conditions should be. As for the last question you had at the end of your post the answer is block or and aegis.

Honestly, if you took food away, conditions would be neutered.

Lionwait.4815:

As for the last question you had at the end of your post the answer is block or and aegis.

The both of which negate most that apply conditions by blocking the too. Thayis important to remember. Both condition and direct damage have skills that are unblockable as well.

1-You can’t avoid condition damage but you can avoid power damage. Condition damage can be mitigated by very few abilties and it’s immediately reapplied once cleared.

2-You can tank a power build with toughness and perma protection but you can’t tank a condi build with vitality, toughness or protection with the incredible condition damage tick.

Seems fair to me……………….

GROMIT.7829:

1-You can’t avoid condition damage but you can avoid power damage. Condition damage can be mitigated by very few abilties and it’s immediately reapplied once cleared.

2-You can tank a power build with toughness and perma protection but you can’t tank a condi build with vitality, toughness or protection with the incredible condition damage tick.

Seems fair to me……………….

obviously.

vitality doesnt work for condis, there is no such things as runes of melandru or antitoxin or hoelbrak or soldier, no such traits as absolute resolution, smiter’s boon, mechalegs, mender’s purity, restorative illusions, transmute, brawler’s recovery, quick breathing, or anything like that whatsoever. i must have made those up and they’re the ones i thought i was using on my toons just off the top of my head. there are probably no other ones like them existing either since these apparently don’t.

o and theres no such thing as lemongrass poultry soup either, those big pots commanders put down, they must be magic find food, thats what proper zerker zergs run with.

i’m sure the condi application attacks cant be dodged either and literally ALL of them HAVE to be unblockable because they dont require any traits or anything of that sort whatsoever.

we should all be running nothing but zerker for EVERYTHING in the game. obviously its still done in pve open world farming and in lowbie dungeon runs and some speed runs so it MUST be great !

we’re all very happy that we’ve been stuck with teh same power/precision/ferocity stat meta for the last 3 years and must want it to continue. that has got to be it. i juts cant think of anyone that would want something different from this most wonderful thing.

/s off

If you guys really want to start naming off all the things you can do vs conditions. You might as well get the bigger list of things you can do vs physical damage too. Its ignorance if you only speak 1\3 the truth when 2\3 is false.

I would like to see Proection boon work against condis

Protection is already a very powerful boon, no need to buff it (and at the same time it would buff classes/builds with high acess to protection – most of them don’t struggle against condis anyways).
Btw an “anti-condi boon” already exists -> resistance.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Protection is already a very powerful boon, no need to buff it (and at the same time it would buff classes/builds with high acess to protection – most of them don’t struggle against condis anyways).
Btw an “anti-condi boon” already exists -> resistance.

Actually as more builds gear towards condi and less towards physical attacks, Protection is nowhere near as “powerful” as it used to be.

I still encounter more power builds than condi builds. And I’m not even talking about zerg players and spvp, where power is clearly superior.

when you do roaming it’s 90% condi player….

Sich.7103:

when you do roaming it’s 90% condi player….

so lets ruin rest of wvw and rest of all the game modes in name of roaming ?

condis are still sub-par in spvp as stated above, anything worth having mid-rank and up is all power, and thats because condis suck.

also, condis are still sub-par in pve. only burn builds on 3 out of 8 professions come within 10%-15% of power builds (see various threads on other forums on the calculations, practical applications etc.) rest of them are extremely below to the point where they are barely viable at low end. and you want to completely destroy even that little bit cause roaming ?

no.

how about just destroy roaming instead and bring condis up to being on par with the metas ?

Tongku.5326:

so lets ruin rest of wvw and rest of all the game modes in name of roaming ?

You missed his point. His statement was made by a persons declaration of lack of experience. Kinda like your reply…..

You talk of worth, ruining, suck, blow, low, & destroy. When the subject is about balance. Your argument has not substance.

Lionwait.4815:

Tongku.5326:

so lets ruin rest of wvw and rest of all the game modes in name of roaming ?

You missed his point. His statement was made by a persons declaration of lack of experience. Kinda like your reply…..

You talk of worth, ruining, suck, blow, low, & destroy. When the subject is about balance. Your argument has not substance.

all right. i’ll bite.

power builds have been on top for 3 years. one of the proven perfectly legit ways which you can actually verify for yourself via google if not personal experience, to balance these sort of games, is to rotate the meta. when the ingame systems become too complex to easily adjust, thats the road that many dev teams choose.

therefore, 3 years of power builds should now be rotated into 3 years of condi builds.

there we go. balanced. AND verifiable.

Lionwait.4815:

As most of us know, conditions are coming more in to play in WVW. We all remember the old days of zerker this and zerker that where physical damage mattered most in most scenarios.

Whats wrong with conditions coming more into play? Why make boons work against condies and let the old days of zerker this and zerker that return?

7. Condition cleanse should also work against power crits because condition cleanse is useless against power. E. g. if i use a cleanse and there are no conditions I get a protection for the next crit.

Is resistance labeled as a boon in game?

enkidu.5937:

Lionwait.4815:

As most of us know, conditions are coming more in to play in WVW. We all remember the old days of zerker this and zerker that where physical damage mattered most in most scenarios.

Whats wrong with conditions coming more into play? Why make boons work against condies and let the old days of zerker this and zerker that return?

7. Condition cleanse should also work against power crits because condition cleanse is useless against power. E. g. if i use a cleanse and there are no conditions I get a protection for the next crit.

oooooo

i like this idea, make all the condi cleanses apply prot….

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Protection is already a very powerful boon, no need to buff it (and at the same time it would buff classes/builds with high acess to protection – most of them don’t struggle against condis anyways).
Btw an “anti-condi boon” already exists -> resistance.

vulnerability was already powerful, no need to buff that. But they did. I think in this case its perfectly fair to make protection work for condis since vunl works for condis now.

The change to vulnerability affects mainly pve. In pvp most condibuilds don’t stack much vulnerability. And even if they would do so, protection would be still stronger (33% compared to max. 25%).
But the main reason, why i think buffing protection is a very bad idea: it would only buff classes/builds with high acess to this boon – many of them are already very powerful (cele ele, pu mesmer – just as example) – while other weaker classes/builds will be even worse.

Tongku.5326:

Sich.7103:

when you do roaming it’s 90% condi player….

so lets ruin rest of wvw and rest of all the game modes in name of roaming ?

condis are still sub-par in spvp as stated above, anything worth having mid-rank and up is all power, and thats because condis suck.

also, condis are still sub-par in pve. only burn builds on 3 out of 8 professions come within 10%-15% of power builds (see various threads on other forums on the calculations, practical applications etc.) rest of them are extremely below to the point where they are barely viable at low end. and you want to completely destroy even that little bit cause roaming ?

no.

how about just destroy roaming instead and bring condis up to being on par with the metas ?

Not really?
Conditions are strong in PvP.
They’re less effective because of AoE cleanse provided by many classes which in fact are packed in a single circle with 600 radius.

Roaming which represents a solo or duo performance doesn’t cripple Conditions like that and shows how silly condi builds are.

You can do the same in PvP honestly – go fight 1v1 or 1v2 with condition build and you’ll see that Condition build at some point is superior than power one.

But the reason why it’s easy to cripple Conditions is exactly like it’s in WvW zerg fights – AoE cleanses from everyone nullifies the damage from conditions, and PvP is similar on that point – pack both teams in one circle and let them spam AoE cleanses and fields…

Condition builds are not in general superior than power builds, even in 1vs1. Sometimes condis are superior, sometimes power is better. It just depends on the specific builds of both opponents.
Nerfing (damaging) condis in general would nerf all condibuilds, making powerbuilds superior everywhere – the opposite of balance and build diversity.

If a build is op, just look a its traits and skills and nerf those things, that make the build op. Don’t nerf everything else.

Armor is passive defense against power build…. But against condi build who apply tons of condi you can’t do anything… Condi ignore armor, and are re apply since you have clean it.. And don’t forget those condi mesmer, spaming condi > stealth > hide… Wait… And start again if player can clean the condi…
Just make condi not ignoring armor and it will be fine…

Sich.7103:

Armor is passive defense against power build…. But against condi build who apply tons of condi you can’t do anything… Condi ignore armor, and are re apply since you have clean it.. And don’t forget those condi mesmer, spaming condi > stealth > hide… Wait… And start again if player can clean the condi…
Just make condi not ignoring armor and it will be fine…

Given that there are runes that negate duration on conditions, runes that remove conditions with certain actions, sigil that proc condition removal, sigil that proc condition transfers, multiple AoE cleanses, multiple traits that help with removing or negating conditions, and multiple skills for each and every profession that literally remove/transfer/convert conditions, you pretty much lose credibility as I see it, when you incorrectly declare there is nothing you can do about conditions.

So what if they can reapply them? Their cooldown are burnt. This is similar to blocking/dodging/immunity to direct damage. They can reapply hit of direct damage, just as quickly. Not to mention the fact that you can block and dodge most condition applying skills.

You need to learn to avoid the heavy application skills just like you need to learn to avoid the heavy hitting direct damage skills.