Guild Wars 2

Ok, first off thank you all for your posts. I’m not saying power builds are doing less damage than condition, I’m just saying condition builds are a lot easier.

Divinorium, I do not think power builds need an increase in damage, look at burst warriors and thieves. That wouldn’t hurt condition players nearly as much as everyone else, literally.

On the subject of doing more damage to uh, in my opinion overcompensate I would like to quote a friend of mine’s idea. I was actually hoping he’d post it himself but I guess he’s just shy (next time I see you I’ll look into your eyes, say that and worse!) so I’ll post it with some of my opinions.

“Conditions should scale off power” and function just like direct damage in terms of stats and perhaps with invulns and blocks, with precision and ferocity (not his words, mine) adding as a supplicant to damage as it is with direct damage. Perhaps the power would scale the condition damage in place of the condition damage stat, the precision would scale up duration, and ferocity would be.. The rate the condition applies? So for that last one, say you have 180 % critical hit dmg modifier from ferocity, I dunno exactly how it would scale in terms of ratio but for example that extra 80% modifier would give 20 % extra condition application frequency for damaging conditions.

I can already see problems with this, for example a lot of people would be going hybrid and there are definitely classes that could do it. I just wanted to get his idea (with my input) out there, let me know your thoughts. Please don’t respond with just “KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE! WATCH IT BUUUUUUURN.” That would not be constructive.

The arguement being made against condition builds is that, as they tend to build survivability you need to do more damage to out burst them, however durability runes are tank gear, it gives you a second (a few more seconds with boon duration) of resistance, but everything else on is useless against conditions, including the protection. The only othr good thing is the vitality, but due to the lack of mitigation… I digress.

Certain classes do need survivability, specifically the ones who don’t have stealth, mesmers and thieves don’t, not necessarily anyway.

Gonna keep this one short, I’d like to enjoy my WI-FI while I can haha.

I’ll probably post something later today.

The base application frequency would be different for each. Confusion and tornent would require no ferocity (read previous post, paragraph 4) but poison and bleed would have like a 2 second application frequency but flames would have 3-4. Instead of condition duration, it’d be stacks that determine the conditions length for damaging conditions. So say you had 5 stacks of poison, you’d have to cleanse it or tough out each stack one by one. Amount of stacks is often how people determine the damage their about to revieve, by removing that indication perhaps Anet could add numbers above conditions to accurately potray the damage you’re about to take, in pulses not total.

Another problem would be multiple people applying the same condition, so how about each condition applied, if by multiple people will stack over each other rather than each individual pulse belonging to an individual person.

Also, what if instead of it just applying the condition damage of the first thing first, what if it determined the damage being done by ratio of total posssible damage but at a severely reduced rate, so for the current condition being applied it would be 100 % damage taken (excluding my other ideas) and for everythjng else, perhaps an added 25% of total damage factoring all stacks of the same type?

Let me know your thoughts.

Xyppi – I disagree with your friends idea, and here’s why.

If you scale condition damage the same as power using the usual stats then you get builds that do both damage types well. It’s too easy.

Look at the effect of running a full stack of 25 might – that boosts both condi and direct damage stats by +750 at level 80. Now imagine the impact on the game if that effect was permanent and amplified to the sorts of power levels that power-builds can achieve. You still wouldn’t help balance condition damage this way because total condition damage would be even greater than it is now (still no armor equivalent).

Players should face choices between full damage, full bunker or a compromise in between. With condition damage we have a choice of how we deal that damage – do you want condi damage or direct damage? Currently both are good, although without an equivalent armor condi damage is easier to apply at the moment.

The case for Constitution is that it would counter the condition damage in the same way that armor does for physical damage. It would reduce, but not stop, condition damage. Just reducing condi damage per tick by 10% gives a player more time to disengage, or cleanse or just fight. It also wouldn’t require any real alteration to Conditions as they stand, while offering players a chance to last longer IF they sacrifice some of their current stats to build up their Constitution. And that’s the key point – it’s not something for nothing.

Constitution would also work regardless of who applied the conditions – it’s just a personal stat that scales down the damage each condition does. I’ve not done any calculations but would suggest that if 2000 Constitution (I reckon that would be about max for a stat that starts at zero?) reduces condition damage by 50% then that could be ok. You get twice as long to live before the conditions kill you…

I think a quick tweaks could then be applied to condi cleanses – every class should have some, but not to clear so many conditions as to make condi builds ineffective again. The one thing that I think would need a serious review is Resistance. I think it needs to become the condi equivalent of Aegis (a block) and not an invulnerability. Given the variety of conditions that exist, and how many attacks can stack more than one type of condition with a single hit, perhaps an Aegis-like Resistance should be stackable and short lived (like Stability).

@Xyppi Sorry i completely disagree with condi scaling with power. Like Yuffi said it would only create the hybrid build meta.

@Yuffi I really don’t believe Anet can just add a extra stat to the game. Maybe in the next expansion but right now that’s utopic to say that they need a new stat.

Like i said they need to either nerf condi damage.

I another note i never really got why Anet decided that +20% of flat critical(fury) or +750 of damage points (might) It’s a good idea. That creates a nightmare to balance.

They needs stats, and pets/thief/etc, scaling from the player’s stats.
so 25 of might = 25% more power/condi. 20% of fury = 20% of YOUR critical chance.

That would make things WAY easier to balance.

But as a immediate change a nerf in condition damage, 5~10%, is a good start.

Also anet need to STOP that come every 3 months to balance. They need to be way more active into balance. Or else a weak class/build/playstyle will stay weak for 1/4 of a month.

So in this current meta, you don’t really go down unless you stand in the AOE. Conditions are more of a nuisance than anything. Conditions like chill and cripple aka soft CCs are just added pressure to slow you down. Conditions like confusion and bleeding don’t really do much since everyone is so tanky. Fire is the one condition you do have to watch because its rarely below 400 per tick. Damage is so centralized that if you do get caught, the added marks from necros are going to down you no matter what anyways. If you manage to rally, you’ll go down again and die. There are some times where you can get away but often, no matter how good you are, you just eat it all.

Conditions aren’t so much a problem if you run the right zerg comp. In small groups, its very deadly because there aren’t as many people around to cleanse them for you. Most small groups aren’t just spiking you down with bursts anymore, they are CC’ing you and loading you up with conditions. In zerg play though, just bring guardians and revenants and you shouldn’t have a problem with conditions.

Like Umbra said, a lot of your tankiness comes from your traits and skills, as conditions bypass your toughness I assume you mean cleanses, and resistance when you say tankiness. I’ll save you the trouble of reading through everything and just try to help you better understand.

Cc conditions are still a problem as a lot of time you cleanse the, let’s say cripple (I wanna say vulnerability) instead of the big damage like the flame stacks. Confusion and torment are a mesmer’s main source of condi damage, so gonna have to disagree with you there. For bleed you usually need to get some pretty high stacks to do decent damage I’ll grant you that. You’re talking mostly in regards of zerging so allow me to correct you on some points. Yes, if you stand in AoE, namely a bomb, you will usually die. Small groups can bomb effectively as well, so this is contradictory to your statement of small groups not bursting you down. They can definitely do this with ease in a few seconds, all they gotta do is wait out your invulns. Condition builds in zergs are definitely still viable and I’ve seen them in use plenty of times. Ever played pick then get like 10 stacks of flame on you? Or longbow warriors and staff necros and purging flame bombs and blab vlah blah, point is it’s viable. Just need the right composition and condi rotations. It’s all very nice on paper, less so in practice. I’m talking guild v guild groups of course, pug zergs don’t run this obviously.

Flat nerfs to damage aren’t the way to go. Like Yuffi pointed out it’s crucial that it’s not something for nothing. I speak as though I’ve pointed that out before, I have not. As for boons, I always thought that was more for group comps than individual builds. Might stacks don’t bother me as much as the permanent protection some classes can do. Maybe because warriors don’t have access to it and so that opinion is biased, but still that’s my opinion.

I may have mispoke, I mean to replace condition damage and nestle that into the power/precision/ferocity stats, it’s just that it would scale in a different way. It would do power damage, not condition. However yes, doing both kinds of damage can be a real balancing issue, D/D eles would thrive for one. As for the ratio as to how much condi damage you mitigate, I’m not sure how it would work in terms of how much condi damage youvwould reduce, I would like it to scale on par with armor and toughness because by trading off either of those two, you make those direct damage builds stronger, so at least make the trade worth it.

As for a condition version of aegis, as Umbra pointed out you can still block conditions about to be applied. There are traits and skills to bypass this, but that is their purpose. Maybe you’re thinking of a condition version of protection, in that case I agree. Might stacks grant condition damage as well as power, why doesn’t protection grant condition danage mitigation by the same %? Condition damage is the anti bunker build I understand, but in my opinion it also the anti everything else.

Xyppi.8061:

Might stacks grant condition damage as well as power, why doesn’t protection grant condition danage mitigation by the same %?

Protection and toughness do not mitigate condi damage for 2 reasons.
1. direct damage base output is significantly greater than condi. Condi starts to become better only against bunker builds (and only because it ignores toughness and protection)
2. Condi damage requires time to build up and tick, which is also time given to the target to react and mitigate the damage (by cleansing, converting or even sending the conditions back)
If you want to make condi be decreased by protection and toughness, to keep the balance you’d also need to make it able to crit, and to scale those crits with ferocity.

In terms of burst yes, of course it is. Ok so I think we’ve been looking at the danage comparison between direct damage and condition damage all wrong, ultimately, it’s about dps. If you compare the dps between condition damage and direct, there’s almost no comparison. Again, not saying either does more damage as it widely varies, saying one thing is better or worse often isn’t true because (I know I said I wouldn’t get philosophical) in my opinion nothing is so black and white.

What this whole thread is about is balancing conditions, not weakening their damage potential but creating a damage reduction stat. All damaging boons work to accomodate both types of damage, even fury. What you said “keep the balance” is contradictory because it’s not balanced as it only affects direct damage and not condition and condi can do plenty of damage, just as direct can in bursts. I do not think if protection reducing damage from conditions being implemented requires a buff to conditions. For one, not every class has that luxury, two, the boon is meant to reduce damage, that is it’s purpose. It is a game mechanic like any other.

What you, and others have said about condition damage giving you time to react whereas direct damage doesn’t isn’t necessarily true. In fact, it’s not much different from direct damage in that regard because as with utility skill cleanses you have invulns or resistance, and traits that also do that and reduce damage or cause you to go invuln. However there are no invuln traits toward conditions either. If you have utility skill cleanses, that reduces your effectiveness against other direct damage types, so most don’t, admittedly condition builds are less common than direct. If you don’t have stun breaks you will die against direct damage just as you would if you didn’t have cleanse against conditions. However your arguement is that you can’t do anything if stunned without stun breaks whereas you can if you have conditions. Well for one, the same situation applies here as well, most of the time all you need do is land a successful nuke (a lot of builds are built around that) and then run away. Yes, if you miss or they have resistance, you’re chance of winning is significantly reduced whereas direct damage can keep up the pressure. However not all are built like that. In the case for the chronomancer (mesmer spec) they can use that ability of theirs to shorten their cooldowns anyway. Nuking builds have plenty of renewable dps without their nukes as well, they tend to be squishy, granted, but all they have to do is kite, and if they get caught just stun break away. Condition builds and direct damage builds can do this, like I said in a previous post, all classes now have plenty of stun breaks now, you can still react unless the person times their cc well, in that case the person is just good.

Maybe once upon a time condition builds were mainly purposed to take down bunkers, but it’s really not about that anymore. Bunkers are bunkers because they do no damage (in my experience, honestly it has been a while) they’re nor much of a threat, just annoying. To the arguement of “oh this build just killed me his build must be better than mine,must be op” or “this killed me in an odd way, I don’t like that, mother call my lawyer”… Stuff like that, one, perhaps you’re projecting? Two, just because he seems to be unkillable, doesn’t mean he’s much of a threat because to him, you’re unkillable. The only time they’re threats is if he’s contesting in a point, withouf invulns and massive heals and even then, no one can withstand sustained dps from 3 people while doing none in return. If they’re running off toward your camp and you know you can’t kill him alone even with the npcs just call for help.

On the subject of stun breaks, in my mind they’re the direct damage counter equivelant to condi cleanses, following that logic HoT implemented plenty of these, but not a whole lot of condi clear.

Xyppi.8061:

Maybe once upon a time condition builds were mainly purposed to take down bunkers, but it’s really not about that anymore. Bunkers are bunkers because they do no damage (in my experience, honestly it has been a while) they’re nor much of a threat, just annoying.

Eh? But thats the entire problem. Since HoT (and to a degree, some time before due to certain gear stats) bunkers do a ton of damage. Look at all the new specs and weapons and you will notice that they are designed to do alot more baseline damage compared to vanilla or bunker alot more at the same damage as vanilla. Especially for classes that had 2/3 primary trees to begin with.

Bunkers doing tons of damage? Discrepency detected. Maybe against very squishy people, but if not feel free to provide proof of the contrary (multiple videos, preferably). Compared to other builds I have a hard time believing this. To go bunker you’re going to need more than just the proper traits, to do tons of damage it’s the same. People who try to balance this aren’t “bunkers”. Just because they’re tanky like most warriors or vanilla guards yet stilldoing good damage doesn’t make them op, I will reiterate, they’re heavies. If the heavy classes go full dmg anyway they will die just as quickly as you will to them if you go glass cannon or not.

If you’re worried about people with a decent to above average survivability look at condi builds, from the way people talk they tend to build a good amount of it. Just to bring us back to topic the thread is about condition damage and what should be done about it, not bunker builds. Maybe it would be if I had a lot of trouble with them, but I don’t often encounter them as I’ve said.

Guys, don’t be shy about posting, I really don’t mind so long as it’s not blatantly insulting me, and even then it’s ok so long as there is intelligent and thoroughly thought out ideas and/or counter claims. Just expect retaliation. Honestly the main reason for me to continue posting is to give food for thought. You guys are giving me ideas I would not otherwise have, for my build, and for the game.

When I attempt to dissuade counter claims with my rhetoric, it’s because you cannot accomplish change if you allow yourself to be a push over, it’s not to be mean, even when it seems explicably to be. Yes I do get genuinely frustrated but no task that’s easy is worth doing. I don’t expect much change to come of this, try as I might. I just want to plant the idea and maybe someone out there more involved will nurture the finer points and spread it. So please, keep the posts coming, and if someone can dethrone me I welcome it.

Xyppi.8061:

Bunkers doing tons of damage? Discrepency detected. Maybe against very squishy people, but if not feel free to provide proof of the contrary (multiple videos, preferably). Compared to other builds I have a hard time believing this. To go bunker you’re going to need more than just the proper traits, to do tons of damage it’s the same. People who try to balance this aren’t “bunkers”. Just because they’re tanky like most warriors or vanilla guards yet stilldoing good damage doesn’t make them op(…)

I play a bunker DH mostly, i do 800 damage (2k-2200 power), and i kill players… is this a op build? well the players i managed to kill slowlllly or even stall a combat… will think it is a op build for sure…just becuse they could not kill me fast eneught.

I play a bunker warrior with over 3500 armor, 32k+ hp, and I can reach a 80-90% crit rate with 2800 power.

I think that counts as bunker and damage.

Please I run condi and die like a champ all the time on several toons. Granted I’m not that great (old eyes, hands, and reaction time). Everything is a trade-off. If you want to survive more= less damage. If you want to smote like an archangel = pour it all into damage stacking. Condi is only a pain when it is stacking with other players condi (sorry folks but its the truth). The red rings of death are still a pain for other classes in WvW.

Please link me your build from this website , unless you’re afraid it’ll go meta. Those are some crazy stats, I have some assumptions but I’d rather not speculate. Just a few guesses though, you must have low ferocity because I don’t think you run beserker, you have that amount of power after you have full stacks of might (if so, pretty dodgy you didn’t post that. Same thing for that crit chance with fury…). I have a hard time believing these stats, especially the 32 k health thing. Probably full stacks of bloodlust as well.

I won’t respond to the other posts yet, I want it to build up for a bit. I am flattered that an older gentleman took the time to post here though.

I just wanted to post so Saerni gets back to me as soon as is convenient.

Xyppi.8061:

Please link me your build from this website , unless you’re afraid it’ll go meta. Those are some crazy stats, I have some assumptions but I’d rather not speculate. Just a few guesses though, you must have low ferocity because I don’t think you run beserker, you have that amount of power after you have full stacks of might (if so, pretty dodgy you didn’t post that. Same thing for that crit chance with fury…). I have a hard time believing these stats, especially the 32 k health thing. Probably full stacks of bloodlust as well.

I won’t respond to the other posts yet, I want it to build up for a bit. I am flattered that an older gentleman took the time to post here though.

I just wanted to post so Saerni gets back to me as soon as is convenient.

To anyone reading I’m researching now. I may end up eating my words from what I can tell so far.

Ok yup, can’t spend too much time on this, so from what I’m seeing right now I have no idea how he got this even with boons.

The best thing that could happen to WvW is that they use the same templates used in pvp. So, no food, no special stats.
If you want wvw balanced for roaming and gvg that is the only way it will work.

Xyppi.8061:

Xyppi.8061:

Please link me your build from this website , unless you’re afraid it’ll go meta. Those are some crazy stats, I have some assumptions but I’d rather not speculate. Just a few guesses though, you must have low ferocity because I don’t think you run beserker, you have that amount of power after you have full stacks of might (if so, pretty dodgy you didn’t post that. Same thing for that crit chance with fury…). I have a hard time believing these stats, especially the 32 k health thing. Probably full stacks of bloodlust as well.

I won’t respond to the other posts yet, I want it to build up for a bit. I am flattered that an older gentleman took the time to post here though.

I just wanted to post so Saerni gets back to me as soon as is convenient.

To anyone reading I’m researching now. I may end up eating my words from what I can tell so far.

Ok yup, can’t spend too much time on this, so from what I’m seeing right now I have no idea how he got this even with boons.

I think part of your problem is you are looking at achieving big fat numbers in your base build while ignoring the fact they need not all be that high as you can get those numbers via utilities and traits that will not show in your build template.

Just one example.

The Skill Signet mastery out of the Arms line. This skill gives 100 precision for an entire minute just by using a signet. Signets put on a lower cooldown mean you can easily get this to stack to its limit of 5 and still have those signets available.

That is 23 percent added to crit chance without gear or runes.
Fury with boon duration in a warrior is all but permament as there so many sources. That another 20 percent crit chance without gear. You have 43 percent crit chance and have not even used gear to get it.

The Signet mastery choice alone gives more precision then does a full set of Assassins armor. This allows you to put more into toughness or vitality.

shagwell.1349:

The best thing that could happen to WvW is that they use the same templates used in pvp. So, no food, no special stats.
If you want wvw balanced for roaming and gvg that is the only way it will work.

This would not increase balance, it would just decrease build diversity massivley, like in PvP. Probably one of the worst suggestions for WvW.

Xyppi.8061:

Bunkers doing tons of damage? Discrepency detected. Maybe against very squishy people, but if not feel free to provide proof of the contrary (multiple videos, preferably). Compared to other builds I have a hard time believing this. To go bunker you’re going to need more than just the proper traits, to do tons of damage it’s the same. People who try to balance this aren’t “bunkers”. Just because they’re tanky like most warriors or vanilla guards yet stilldoing good damage doesn’t make them op, I will reiterate, they’re heavies. If the heavy classes go full dmg anyway they will die just as quickly as you will to them if you go glass cannon or not.

If you’re worried about people with a decent to above average survivability look at condi builds, from the way people talk they tend to build a good amount of it. Just to bring us back to topic the thread is about condition damage and what should be done about it, not bunker builds. Maybe it would be if I had a lot of trouble with them, but I don’t often encounter them as I’ve said.

How wrong you are.

With specializations and HoT, bunkering has become way easier to achieve. Boon stacking, damage evasion skills all over the place, damage reduction through food and traits, much more healing available… Defensive stats are no longer crucial for bunkering, they are only worth for stats optimization.
This has helped a lot power builds, they can as dangerous as ever without being squishy.

Several professions have builds capable of being bunker with offensive stats like zerker or marauder. Berserkers, DH, tempests, scrappers or revs can do crazy bursts and heavy sustained damage while holding outnumbered fights.

Condi builds, on the other hand, have had a rougher time. Resistance, better condi cleansing across professions, bleeding damage nerf, confusion and torment burst nerfed, marauder gear…
They are still very strong though, specially some out of reason like condi chrono and stealth thief. But it’s not something power builds can’t become.

As a mesmer who played condi shatter before specializations and now power, there’s no current condi build that matches the craziness of what condi shatter achieved. The things I did with that beast… Instead, now I’m looking at power Berserker/Revs/Scrappers to search that feeling of OPness.

What babazhook said is correct.

The build is based around Sentinel armor, boon duration runes/food, and gains critical chance from signets, fury, and precision stacking bonus. It uses a sword which can be traited for an additional 20% crit against bleeding foes (which the autoattack adds).

You are right the ferocity is limited.

saerni.2584:

What babazhook said is correct.

The build is based around Sentinel armor, boon duration runes/food, and gains critical chance from signets, fury, and precision stacking bonus. It uses a sword which can be traited for an additional 20% crit against bleeding foes (which the autoattack adds).

You are right the ferocity is limited.

It worth pointing out that less ferocity does not necessarily mean low damage. For example if you can maintain very high power via might and apply high vulnerability stacks you can generate a lot of damage before a crit even kicks in.

First off I forgot to link the website so here http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/.

I realize that traits can offer large stat boosts, that’s why I suggested thag he wasn’t using beserker. I will reiterate, he wasn’t direct about his stacking bonuses, he just claimed to have ginormous stats without explaining how. Still hasn’t.

How wrong I am? I already explained the thought process, just because they do good damage with good tanky stats doesn’t make them bunkers. Matter of fact I’m beginning to question whether we know how to define a bunker. A bunker is " a build soley on the basis of survival", supporting their allies and the like. Can bunkers even effectively stack damaging boons on themselves?

As for condition builds, they do not have a tougher time of it for reasons I no longer care to explain. If you think it’s TL:DR that’s your problem.

Condi is a pain to deal with whether 1v1 or group fights. I think I’ve already responded to a similar post.

A power build without crit is like neutering a man, where’d all that testosterone go mate? I see your point but, like his ferocity is limited, so is damage without crits. Only class I see this as somewhat viable is ranger.

Alright, as enlightening as this thread has been for me, I’m more or less just saying the same things now. Again, if it’s TL:DR that’s your problem. I’ve said time and again this is not about anything other than condi’s but now we’re drifting into “everythinv is op if you think about it” land. So to the point, I no longer have the desire to continue posting. Again, thanks for all the posts.

Could go on a spiel on how to make this thread mean something but meh, all I ask is that Anet at least acknowledges our posts, but from what I hear about them they never do. I no longer find this a productive use of my time and I must now bid you all farewell. Au revoire (not French, lol).

PS: might respond to some posts depending how they picque my interest. Emphasis on “how”.

My warrior is still in rough draft format, so I’ll give you the link you want.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAseRnMdA1dglkCGeAciglpA7902avtIJgvWB44IEAGZA-TFSBQBU4RAsv9HSmyPGcCAOk+gNp+DAOCArUJYnBBgRkA8//3nnHpACcoF-w

EDIT:

The stats I gave you are based on gaining the precision from the stacking bonus and assumes roughly 10 stacks of might.

Xyppi.8061:

First off I forgot to link the website so here http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/.

I realize that traits can offer large stat boosts, that’s why I suggested thag he wasn’t using beserker. I will reiterate, he wasn’t direct about his stacking bonuses, he just claimed to have ginormous stats without explaining how. Still hasn’t.

How wrong I am? I already explained the thought process, just because they do good damage with good tanky stats doesn’t make them bunkers. Matter of fact I’m beginning to question whether we know how to define a bunker. A bunker is " a build soley on the basis of survival", supporting their allies and the like. Can bunkers even effectively stack damaging boons on themselves?

As for condition builds, they do not have a tougher time of it for reasons I no longer care to explain. If you think it’s TL:DR that’s your problem.

Condi is a pain to deal with whether 1v1 or group fights. I think I’ve already responded to a similar post.

A power build without crit is like neutering a man, where’d all that testosterone go mate? I see your point but, like his ferocity is limited, so is damage without crits. Only class I see this as somewhat viable is ranger.

Alright, as enlightening as this thread has been for me, I’m more or less just saying the same things now. Again, if it’s TL:DR that’s your problem. I’ve said time and again this is not about anything other than condi’s but now we’re drifting into “everythinv is op if you think about it” land. So to the point, I no longer have the desire to continue posting. Again, thanks for all the posts.

Could go on a spiel on how to make this thread mean something but meh, all I ask is that Anet at least acknowledges our posts, but from what I hear about them they never do. I no longer find this a productive use of my time and I must now bid you all farewell. Au revoire (not French, lol).

PS: might respond to some posts depending how they picque my interest. Emphasis on “how”.

Your dismissive post makes everything I thought about this thread true.

Condi is a problem for you and a subset of players, not me. The only time I ever have problems with condis is small scale if at all. If you are having problems with conditions in a zerg situation you need to change your core composition.

I use power on 7 of my 8 toons and have no problems with conditions.

Sartharina.3542:

I think that people are just unable to cope with the fact that something that doesn’t kill them instantly is still supposed to kill them. You’re not supposed to be able to clear every condition you take, just as you’re not supposed to be able to block or evade every hit. And just because your character is still moving and fighting doesn’t mean they haven’t taken a lethal blow.

Well said and better stated than what I’ve said myself many times in the past. I usually compare them to IRL situations such as being terminally ill versus taking a fatal wound to the head. In the former you have enough time to lament your life and in the latter it’s over before you have time to be mad.

I understand 110% the hatred towards conditions. I felt it when I was new to the game and there are absolutely times even now where I feel cheap shotted. It’s not the most fun mechanic in the game but I still believe that conditions themselves are perfectly fine. Again, only certain builds need to be adjusted. Not conditions as a whole. It would be like saying power damage is OP and needs to be nerfed because Gunflame does too much damage. It wouldn’t be fair to reduce power damage across the board just because one/a few skills are over performing.

No game is ever going to be perfectly balanced. There are always things that will need to be adjusted, things people will hate and things that will be exploited. Unfortunately, the way conditions were implemented in GW2, most people find it unenjoyable to play against.

Also, those that complain about Toughness having no effect against conditions – That’s the point… Toughness greatly reduces incoming physical damage. If the effect of conditions were reduced by Toughness, Protection, Resistance, condition clears, evades, blocks, invulns, reflects, blinds, interrupts… Everyone would just run high Toughness builds and be unkillable.

The people that hate conditions probably won’t agree with any of this no matter how many facts they’re shown or how much logic is in the speech. So I choose to have faith in ANet not nerfing conditions across the board and attempting to shed some light on the situation to those that are still in the dark.

My dismissive post? YOU are the literal definition of TL:DR people.

People literally never agree on anything when they’re in a position to argue.

I am done posting here because it genuinely makes me angry and I no longer see the point. You can think what you want but I’m trying to make the smart decision here and leaving before I say something I regret. You made one post, I made a dozen, you’re not required to post more than one, normally I wouldn’t care. However when I spend my time trying to accomplish something and I do spend a good chunk of my time posting this (30 to an hour per) only to get constantly berated, why even bother? I’ve already said my piece and since then, nothing but dealing with counter-claims.

I am not new to the game if that’s what you’re getting at, and you’re right, nerfing something for one specific thing is stupid, why not just nerf that one thing? Obviously you didn’t read my other ideas AKA compromises. You know what’s funny? The last part of your post. Look, I’m sure you’re a nice guy, you seem like it and I appreciate you voicing your opinion. This might seem like I’m just trying to leave a parting shot, I’m not. I’m just not going to waste more time acting, as I call it “diplomatic”.

I think the main problem (other than whether condition damage actually is OP or not) is that we have two different situations that we’ve been talking about.

For players in a large group there is much less threat from condition damage. I know some organised groups rely on players having builds (front row and back row) that synergise well to remove or reduce condition damage for the group.

For small scale combat (1 or 2 players) this isn’t really possible (or at least isn’t as effective). So conditions seem much more of a problem to these players.

You need to add in the fact that AoE conditions are a good way to cause damage against multiple opponents, especially if they stack. So condition damage becomes part of the zerg meta in a way that can be countered if you have a half decent group. This is how it should be.

But how do you balance conditions so they also work in the small scale fights? Because that’s the problem area at the moment. Solo or small group builds have to be more self sufficient. It’s far easier for me to build for condition damage AND survivability because I only need to max condition damage, leaving two sets of stats free, so I’ll take toughness and vitality thank you very much. If I want to maximise direct damage I need to run Zerker, which leaves me like a glass cannon. I can of course sacrifice some damage (about half) and go Soldiers but this doesn’t really do as much damage overall as full Dire will. Many players pick the easier option – it’s within the rules and they want to win fights.

The imbalance between conditions for large and small groups is why I have suggested the introduction “Constitution”, a new stat which would act as armor to reduce condition damage. It won’t make much difference to zerg play but it would allow small group players a way to offset condition damage that doesn’t use valuable utility slots. This helps the problem situation we have without nerfing any conditions – a win for everyone.

I know Constitution wouldn’t be introduced overnight – it would need to be part of a serious patch or expansion – but this has been done before and it could be done again. In my opinion, the sooner the better.

What you are proposing would need to replace condition clears…which is part of build diversity.

If you introduce a new stat then suddenly there is no need for all the condition clearing abilities and traits.

And if all you are looking for is a reduction in condition damage, particularly from certain class abilities, without removing condition clears then “balance x ability” is a better and more simple choice to achieve that than “add an entirely new stat.”

No, that’s not how it works. The concept of Expertise would suggest then the game demands more cleanses than ever. That didn’t happen; condition application got increased when it launched. Such a stat only provides an answer to some builds, and then you have a very rock-paper-scissors answer to balance where either you run the condition damage mitigation stat and faceroll win agaist condi builds, or you don’t run it and you get absolutely demolished because your cleanses got nerfed.

If you’re going to utilize stats to solve the problem, it makes more sense to give conditions baseline very low duration and just mandate that Expertise see use game-wide, including core, and then just replacing dire gear with it, and then just have expertise be able to boost the condition duration cap up to say 4×.

This could even enable substantial tweaking with power damage coefficients on existing condi-only weapons and condition components to power weapons, since durations baseline could be made something like 1.25s – a single tick without expertise – while an expertise-heavy build could get 5s ticks, a substantial damage increase paralleling that of the difference between soldier’s and berserker gear.

Then condi play carries enough vulnerability in small-scale while its damage ends up unchanged in meta large-scale since people will just stat expertise to deal the same damage they deal now.

And then just let people get selectable stats on any existing condition damage weapons/armor they have, just like they did when replacing MF.

And all things considered, a set like TB would be the effective equivalent of Soldier’s while not just shelling out more damage against more durable foes for no reason.

Well, HoT balance is HoT balance. Expertise is also in exchange for some of the condition damage and other stats as far as TB stats are concerned. So there is a trade off, not sure if the trade off is “enough” to call it balanced but that is a question for testing.

As far as TB in practice, I use only TB stats for my weapons. I find that my overall damage is sufficient in most cases because cleanses are going to cut off the damage no longer how long the duration increase is. And I should note that because of the decrease in the base damage the duration increase may not significantly increase the damage done.

And HoT massively increased the cleanse for some classes. Druid has insane cleanse for one. And even something like Berserker with Adr. Cleansing will clear a lot more conditions than a traditional warrior build. Add in resistance and a few classes have very strong condition management.