Guild Wars 2

Seriously I don’t think it needs a genious to realize that condition system need to be fixed and rebalanced:
1) some classes can apply way too many different conditions in such a short time without much effort: [ex 1]Necromancer’s signet of spite (Inflict bleeding, blindness, crippled, poison, vulnerability, and weakness) aka one button to win, especially if u’re the victim and you’re outnumbered
[ex 2] Thief p/d condi build (with venoms i think) stacks of bleeding, torment, poison, immobilize, weakness – stealth steal and repeat
2) condition cleansing priority is broken: I don’t know how it works exactly I only know it happens that I have one stack of torment and 8 stack of bleeding and if I use a condi removal skill it cleanse torment….or similar situations, it happens all the time
3) immobilize stacking is annoying, gank-friendly, stupid.
4) condition removals are not well distributed among classes: some of them like ele can cleanse easily without being forced to go deep on a determined trait line or occupying all the utility slots with condition removals, some classes have to do it.
5) Condition > Dps in sPVP/WVW. It bypass armor, u don’t need to boost different stats to make conditions effective like for dps build (power prec and crit dmg). You just need condition dmg. Precision for some builds/classes it’s useful for the condition on crit, but not necessary. Duration can be easily boosted with food/utility food. + thanks to the genial introduction of dire armor sets some classes can become godlike
The proof is that I see day by day more and more ppl with condition builds: d/p condi thieves, pu condi mesmers, sword/longbow condi warriors, condi engi ( crit engi is soo squishy/vulnerable/counterable compared to condi engi that almost no one use it anymore), condi rangers (not too many actually, most of them keep being owned using longbow/gs), condi necros (ok necros are made for conditions I don’t complain).
The only poor class that can not enroll a really effective condi build is Guardian I think (if i’m wrong correct me), for all the others choosing condition over dps it’s a win choice. The direct consequence is that the variety of builds and combat dynamics are reduced and shallowed —> less fun for everyone. What do you guys think?

Obviously we all need to roll Guardians and Warriors.

Its really a shame how sometimes you have to back off on traiting full DPS.

No, wait, it isn’t.

To the contrary the zerg meta seems to be going away from condition damage because its so easily cleansed within the zerg.

You know what’s the biggest condi spam culprit in a giant zerg fight around keeps and towers? Necro epidemic on the lord/champion, who will have every condition in the game stacked up on him, killing everyone the epidemic hits around him. It’s one little skill, on a relatively short cooldown, which is deadly even on an upleveled character.

+ 40% Condition Duration food exasperates the problem. Practically every Condition build uses this food for good reason. It’s much more powerful (relatively speaking) than any other food buff out there.

Bringing it down to +20% would be reasonable.

And yes, Singet of Spite and the pressure Necros can apply with it is ridiculous as well. I’m not sure if Conditions in general are a problem but I just feel like Agony should have never been added to the game.

Yeah, that agony kills wvw for me as well!

In a large groups conditions get removed very quickly. They usually wind up dealing quite a bit less damage than direct damage (as morrolan pointed out).

+40% duration food is countered with the -40% duration food

I think it only effects the solo roamers at most.

As a few people have mentioned, it’s not at all an issue in large scales fights. Condi’s dont stick inside a zerg.

Small scale combat is a completely different story. The condi pressure that some classes can apply is just straight up ridiculous. I’m specced almost entirely to counter conditions, yet conditions are still by far the biggest issue for me in small fights. You can’t counter conditions at all. The current condi meta allows for no counter play, and that’s pretty much the definition of a broken mechanic.

Not to mention, the whole playstyle in general is jsut so anti-fun. In my opinion, conditions should be relegated to soft CC only. Condi damage is just completely over the top.

As said it is only a roaming <5v5 problem. It is a big problem though.

Sube Dai.8496:

As said it is only a roaming <5v5 problem. It is a big problem though.

Even 10-15, condis are still king.

Conditions don’t bother me at all…

Then again I play a Necro who has a plethora of ways to cleanse them.

Considering conditions never really do much damage in zerg battles, I am not sure it is a huge issue. I could see certain professions having issues with conditions, like Mesmer or certain Ele/Thief builds… but overall I think there are plenty of ways to build your character to survive condition stacks… Lemongrass/Lyssa runes, cleanse traits, Melandru/Hoelbrak runes.

I agree sometimes you just cant survive a condition burst from say a Necro or Engineer.. But then again sometimes I just cant survive being chain knocked down/stunned by a Hammer warrior so I guess it works both ways.

Yea, necro condi capabilities are over the top in wvw. Necros are still considered a little too strong in pvp, and they have some pvp-only nerfs to their skills (like dhuumfire is 1/2 as strong) and no food in pvp. Plus, good necros build up 25 stacks of corruption and full life-force before a fight. A decent necro can be absolutely over-the-top in wvw.

Your best bet is to roll warrior: they are good at everything, and always will be!

i think cc, dmg and condi builds must be equivalent. i like situations where the players skill matter.

Honestly, conditions have never bothered me much in WvW…

As long as you make sure you have some decent condition removal then I am generally fine, if ever I feel that’s not enough (which is rare), then I use the reduce condition duration food.

I would still say in WvW, direct crit damage kills 70-80% of enemy players not conditions.

I think the problem is too many players want to max there damage output and have few if any defensive capabilities.

Indeed it’s also very dependent on class/build. Like an eng will often have very little cond removal with just turret(2) and EG(1).

Meglobob.8620:

Honestly, conditions have never bothered me much in WvW…

As long as you make sure you have some decent condition removal then I am generally fine, if ever I feel that’s not enough (which is rare), then I use the reduce condition duration food.

I would still say in WvW, direct crit damage kills 70-80% of enemy players not conditions.

I think the problem is too many players want to max there damage output and have few if any defensive capabilities.

I can only assume that you don’t duel/roam, as the condition meta (and it is a meta) is so obvious at small scale.

Sube Dai.8496:

Meglobob.8620:

Honestly, conditions have never bothered me much in WvW…

As long as you make sure you have some decent condition removal then I am generally fine, if ever I feel that’s not enough (which is rare), then I use the reduce condition duration food.

I would still say in WvW, direct crit damage kills 70-80% of enemy players not conditions.

I think the problem is too many players want to max there damage output and have few if any defensive capabilities.

I can only assume that you don’t duel/roam, as the condition meta (and it is a meta) is so obvious at small scale.

Only roam on my thief, who again does not have a problem…

Play spvp a lot as well and don’t have problems with conditions there as well (play warrior/guardian/engineer mainly in spvp), of course spvp is a far more balanced area.

Moleless.1462:

Sube Dai.8496:

As said it is only a roaming <5v5 problem. It is a big problem though.

Even 10-15, condis are still king.

Playing 10-15 every single day and I strongly disagree.

Aberrant.6749:

Indeed it’s also very dependent on class/build. Like an eng will often have very little cond removal with just turret(2) and EG(1).

Trait for it, -40% food, eg 1, healing kit 4, engis have lots of condition removal traits and in fact can clear ALL conditions at 25% HP.

Conditions aren’t really that much of a problem for people if they plan for them – and if you don’t then expect them to kill you. Burst damage is mainly what kills people in groups- even small parties can cleanse conditions while bursting down whatever is causing them.

Because direct damage should rule zergs/blobs and roaming too. All makes perfect sense to me.

Signet of spite? in wvw?
Condition duration a problem in wvw?

This is all new to me..

When people talk about conditions they directly point at necro while the general conditions put on in wvw by necro are from well of corruption that converts your boons.. for the rest bleeds and other stacks probably come from melee running over you ^^

I havn’t seen a group ever going down trough conditions, and if they do carry some conditions the buff icons will outnumber those by far.

Condition dmg needs boost or condition removal needs nerf.

I was actually talking about roaming/ small scale fights, situations where the balance between classes or the lack of it is clearear. If u hide inside a zerg all the time of course u don’t know about these problems.

We are in the middle of a condition meta, it is to be expected. Even my Warrior can stack burn, poison, chill, torment, bleeds, and vulnerability.

oh please. condition damage op? out of control?
i feel that condition damage is not enough punishing right now.

if you died because of condition damage its you dont blame anybody else. every class in the game currently have good condition removal. you just dont equip the skill or trait it.

what is next? remove condition damage and buff warrior?

If something is op in meaningless fight anet won’t nerft it. Thief stealth is good example.

Psykoyul.9147:

Moleless.1462:

Sube Dai.8496:

As said it is only a roaming <5v5 problem. It is a big problem though.

Even 10-15, condis are still king.

Playing 10-15 every single day and I strongly disagree.

3-10 of them are guardians, right?

Immobilise needs to be looked at. Not fun having huge durations of it

fight against any decent group and try stacking conditions on a target. it’s not gonna happen.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Immobilise needs to be looked at. Not fun having huge durations of it

They are decreasing it from a max of 5 stacks to a max of 3 stacks

Junkpile.7439:

If something is op in meaningless fight anet won’t nerft it. Thief stealth is good example.

All fights in WvW are utterly meaningless anyway. The winning team is decided solely by total coverage.

Every class can run/neutralize condition builds…

I have no issue dealing with it on any of my classes (Mesmer is probably the worst, but still capable) – bring condition clears if you want to deal with it.

Julie Yann.5379:

Even my Warrior can stack burn, poison, chill, torment, bleeds, and vulnerability.

You forgot cripple, immobilize and confusion as well… It is just stupidly easy to apply most conditions for some classes / builds while beeing extremely tanky. There are several issues which cause this severe imbalance:

• guaranteed auto-procs like Dhuumfire, Incendiary Powder, Barbed Precision, Sharpshooter, etc (yeah, they require some precision, but this is easy while still being tanky) even from ranged auto attacks
• some of them have reduced duration in sPvP where stacking condition damage and additional condition duration are much harder to achieve, and even there everyone is playing condi atm
• imbalanced condition removal vs amount of lethal condition application (ranger really lacks effective removal; low base-hp classes struggle even when they stack condition removal and use light field combos)
• non-telegraphed skills / lack of animations and tells (e.g. necro signs, most engineer bombs and grenades, signet of spite (it still does not show up for me!), deathshroud-fear, etc) which make it impossible to reliably dodge, blind or block hard condition application like you can do with most direct damage / cc skills
• random condition removal (except for stuff like ele staff air-4 and warrior warhorn-4 controlled condition removal is very hard to do)
• strength of some conditions (immobilize- and confusion stacking) which are not only influencing the fight but decide them pretty early

There are some things which I think the balance team should consider:

• immobilize may break when you receive damage
• confusion may vanish like blind when your skill connects with a target (which punishes skill-spam but does not punish active gameplay as it currently does)
• either condition application may be removed from auto attacks or auto-procs may be removed
• buffing condition removal on some classes for a wider variety of builds
• reduce condition removal on others (nerf cleansing ire and dogged march as well as similar traits on other classes)
• make condition burst skills like SoS and CB more telegraphing (most power burst skills are easily recognizable already)

How can people say condition damage is out of control when direct crit damage does 5K -10K+ in a few secs?

Thiefs, Warriors and Mesmers can fairly easily lay down that kind of damage.

Direct crit damage kills you fast.
Condition damage kills you slow.

Meglobob.8620:

Condition damage kills you slow.

5k/sec condi necro dissaggrees.

Aten.8046:

…The only poor class that can not enroll a really effective condi build is Guardian …

More condition builds will result in more condition cleansing being brought. More cleansing means less other defensive measures against non-condition builds. It’ll level out, eventually.

I think with enough hp, conditions alone aren’t much trouble in wvw. If you’re roaming, you’re doing it wrong. If you’re with friends…chances are some of them are guardians and warriors and condition removal will be ok then.
Also, all classes have options for condi removal and you can use runes (melandru or others) as well as food.

Garrisyl.7402:

Meglobob.8620:

Condition damage kills you slow.

5k/sec condi necro dissaggrees.

5k/sec condi necro would need 7 seconds to kill my warrior. That’s without counting any stun, shout (that cleanses conditions) and use of the warhorn. Well…i guess it’s not that OP, is it ?

Meglobob.8620:

How can people say condition damage is out of control when direct crit damage does 5K -10K+ in a few secs?

Thiefs, Warriors and Mesmers can fairly easily lay down that kind of damage.

Direct crit damage kills you fast.
Condition damage kills you slow.

Well if the enemy hits u hard with crits is probably squishy so u can hurt him badly as well. The problem is when a tanky build can still deal extreme high dmg using conditions without sacrifying survivability.

Condition duration is near useless in WvW. Only Condition damage and how often you can continuously apply a given condition matter.

Aten.8046:

Meglobob.8620:

How can people say condition damage is out of control when direct crit damage does 5K -10K+ in a few secs?

Thiefs, Warriors and Mesmers can fairly easily lay down that kind of damage.

Direct crit damage kills you fast.
Condition damage kills you slow.

Well if the enemy hits u hard with crits is probably squishy so u can hurt him badly as well. The problem is when a tanky build can still deal extreme high dmg using conditions without sacrifying survivability.

You could be talking about necros, but also a lot of other can have great survivability + conditions.
I still fail to see how you would solve this, make conditions do even less damage? Make them even do less damage in pve and in zergs because in roaming they can be good?

What bugs me about condition builds (well, in general, I’m sure there’s some exceptions) is they’re incredibly strong for small scale fights but incredibly weak in large scale fights.

Like, I understand maybe utilities or even traits being better in some situations than others but entire equipment sets and builds becoming basically obsolete? What sort of balance is that? It’s goofy and not fun and I think that’s related to why people only stick to zergs. If that’s all your build is good for, after all, why do anything else?

You can’t even change out of builds easily or anything to justify this level of specialization, it’s very expensive.

Victory.2879:

Aberrant.6749:

Indeed it’s also very dependent on class/build. Like an eng will often have very little cond removal with just turret(2) and EG(1).

Trait for it, -40% food, eg 1, healing kit 4, engis have lots of condition removal traits and in fact can clear ALL conditions at 25% HP.

Conditions aren’t really that much of a problem for people if they plan for them – and if you don’t then expect them to kill you. Burst damage is mainly what kills people in groups- even small parties can cleanse conditions while bursting down whatever is causing them.

Actually, medkit 4 only cleanses one condition (contrary to the implication of the tooltip) so HT is twice as good at condition removal, as the person you quoted says. Also, the Automated Response trait doesn’t remove any conditions, just keeps new ones from being applied. It’s a good trait, but it doesn’t cleanse any conditions.

Their two traits that remove conditions are transmute (which is getting an arguable buff tomorrow) and CF409, which is useful in a build with 2+ elixirs. They do have a utility that clears conditions, elixir C, but it’s very hard to fit into a working build.

And now you know about engineers’ condi removal skills and traits!

Aten.8046:

I was actually talking about roaming/ small scale fights, situations where the balance between classes or the lack of it is clearear. If u hide inside a zerg all the time of course u don’t know about these problems.

So what you are saying you actually met a roaming necro?
Do you know how freaking rare they are? Oo. I hope you tried to catch it because it will only appear under certain circumstances..

Anybody who is saying “your class has condition cleanses” is doing so from a point of ignorance, plain and simple.

Sure there are some classes when traited right, and with the right gear (Guardians/PoV/with Soldier runes for example), well they can keep conditions at bay pretty well. But the issue with conditions really is that there are many classes that can take every possible cleanse they have and still burn through them and have the conditions simply reapplied at will.

I agree that as a player you have to understand when to use a cleanse (IE: when to tank certain conditions), but even then you are still talking about a cleanse that removes 1-3 conditions, every 20 seconds. Versus skills that are applying conditions at much shorter CDs.

I also laugh at the people saying “you’re just mad cause you cant trait full on DPS”, well actually full on glass is the best way to counter a condi-spec. Because if you don’t have enough DPS to put them on the defensive they will just spam you down eventually.

All the Mesmer tears. Many of them my own.

I’ve eaten 10k damage backstabs, while sittin at 1950 toughness….

While Conditions are nasty, don’t pretend Power Damage isn’t easily as nasty.

Garrisyl.7402:

Meglobob.8620:

Condition damage kills you slow.

5k/sec condi necro dissaggrees.

Only way my necro can reach 5k/sec is with 20+ stacks of bleeds, burn, psn, terror

anyone who lets themselves get that many bleeds on then should die.