General condition damage should be reduced and gain the crit modifier. This means for a condi player to do significant DPS they have to pour points into precision, ferocity and condition damage. All players power and condi should have to choose between offensive power and defensive capability.
I also believe players should not be able to offensively or defensively change the duration of conditions.
You can use sigil, traits, etc.. that apply condi on crits. And you can use extra condi duration.
All players power and condi should have to choose between offensive power and defensive capability.
They already do have to choose, soldiers does the same damage as dire with 50% condition duration. Same defensive stats and everything.
No.
/15asura
Conditions are already powerful enough as they are and you want to make them even more powerful?
Precision is already important for a lot of condition builds. There is a noticeable difference in kill time for rabid versus dire versus apothecary.
Conditions used to crit, IIRC. I am sure it was changed for a reason.
I read the OPs message now a few times and I guess he wanted to point out something a bit different: He actually wants people running condi-builds to actually have to use 2 stats in order to increase damage.
Although that’s already true for many condi-builds because they get bleed-stacks up with a bleed-on crit trait or bleed-on crit sigil. But there are also builds which do not really need any crit-chance to apply a massive amount of bleeds and therefore they can use a defensive stat instead of crit. So the OP doesn’t want to have additional damage, he wants to reduce condition damage and let it crit.
@OP: I guess that’s what you wanted to point out?
Here I have to agree a bit: e.g. P/D thiefs as well as condi-ranger (when using axe as main bleed-source) do not need crits. When I run with my ranger and my condi-build I easily apply >20stacks bleed within a few seconds while still having around 28k health and 3.2k armor.
If condi would need to crit in order to get decent damage, I would have to give up that defense for some percentage.
(edited by Lenoir.3579)
I think conditions are meant to be sustained damage, contrasting with spiked damage; high damage over time rather than high damage per second. Compare with sustained heals versus burst heals.
Power builds need Power, Precision and Ferocity to output high DPS. If any one of them is removed, the DPS suffers significantly. The same should be true of condi damage. If a player wants high output DPS from conditions they would need to spec Condi Damage, Precision and Ferocity.
Base condi damage as it is would be reduced with no ability to prolong or reduce its duration. The advantage of condi should ONLY be that it bypasses toughness/armor. It should not be that it does that AND allows a player to heavily stack toughness and/or vitality.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
Tell you what, you try a build that absolutely requires significant time to kill without any defensive stats. See how well you do.
Hint: you’ll stop getting any kills.
To the OP: Not such a great idea. Conditions are balanced from never having their damage divided by never having it multiplied either. Only changes necessary to conditions are some form of addressing the stack cap in PvE.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Tell you what, you try a build that absolutely requires significant time to kill without any defensive stats. See how well you do.
Hint: you’ll stop getting any kills.
To the OP: Not such a great idea. Conditions are balanced from never having their damage divided by never having it multiplied either. Only changes necessary to conditions are some form of addressing the stack cap in PvE.
Condition builds kill just as quickly as power builds do — many times even quicker. And even if they didn’t, most condition builds are ranged, allowing the player to kite or hide while the conditions tick. The play style is inherently more passive and more defensive — having full dire as an option just pushes this play style over the top.
Conditions aren’t balanced at all in small scale combat. The only “balance” for conditions is to pick larger battles, which is just absurd.
Conditions are already powerful enough as they are and you want to make them even more powerful?
OP’s proposal would make conditions weaker. He proposes a general reduction (say, half) to the base condition tick, with the chance of a crit modifier to increase this otherwise reduced damage. This pushes condition builds away from choices like dire or rabid, where they can output comparable DPS to power builds and remain fairly tanky.
Tell you what, you try a build that absolutely requires significant time to kill without any defensive stats. See how well you do.
Hint: you’ll stop getting any kills.
To the OP: Not such a great idea. Conditions are balanced from never having their damage divided by never having it multiplied either. Only changes necessary to conditions are some form of addressing the stack cap in PvE.
Condition builds kill just as quickly as power builds do — many times even quicker. And even if they didn’t, most condition builds are ranged, allowing the player to kite or hide while the conditions tick. The play style is inherently more passive and more defensive — having full dire as an option just pushes this play style over the top.
Maybe against meditation guardians, but anyone else, no. I’ve been running condition builds and power builds interchangeably on multiple professions and unless my opponent is using no cleanses or is stacking Toughness, the condition time to kill is always longer.
Most condition builds are ranged, but so are an equal number of Power builds. That’s a wash. Also, melee condition builds can also “kite or hide while conditions tick”. Power builds may not be able to do that, but they also have no need to; their damage is already done. They don’t need to wait for their damage to take effect.
Conditions are actually quite well balanced right now. Choosing Dire over Rabid/Carrion loses damage output, just like choosing Soldier’s loses damage output over Valkyrie’s.
Where is this world were condition specs need only 1 stat, you have never played the game if you believe that. You need 3 stats,2 if your class has enough HP that is the condition way of damage.
Stacking, tanking, stacking…..that’s how they max damage. So……NO. If this is realated to PvE…not the right way.
(edited by Sagat.3285)
Most condition builds are ranged, but so are an equal number of Power builds. That’s a wash.
That’s not true. Consider the meta condition builds: nade engi’s, p/d teefs, scepter/staff mesmers, longbow warriors, staff necromancers, shortbow rangers, scepter guardians. The only meta condition build I can think of in melee is d/f ele, but even then, the signet or staff version of the build is also ranged. A few of the builds have melee weapons (s/s warrior, s/t ranger), but they mainly use ranged weapons .
On the other hand, the meta power builds: d/p or s/d teef, s/t + gs shatter mesmer, eviscerate warrior, d/f power necro (usually staff on swap), medi guard, d/d ele. Static discharge engi’s and longbow rangers (who usually run greatsword swap) are really the only two ranged power builds that are popular in WvW.
I don’t know why it’s this way, but the meta condition builds are overwhelmingly ranged, whereas the meta power builds are overwhelmingly melee.
Power builds may not be able to do that, but they also have no need to; their damage is already done. They don’t need to wait for their damage to take effect.
That’s worse for power builds. Condition builds don’t need to constantly land hits to dish out DPS. They only need to land a few hits, and even if the other attacks miss or if the player just runs around kiting, the conditions continue ticking. On the other hand, power builds don’t have the luxury of missing hits or kiting around because the player does no DPS if he doesn’t land hits.
Yes, the damage is already done for power builds, but that damage is often mitigated. The condition damage, even if it doesn’t tick for full duration, is still done fairly quickly. 2-3 ticks of a condition burst is already comparable damage to that of a power burst. Even if they cleanse the conditions after that, the damage is still done as well.
(edited by mango.9267)
Most condition builds are ranged, but so are an equal number of Power builds. That’s a wash.
That’s not true. Consider the meta condition builds: nade engi’s, p/d teefs, scepter/staff mesmers, longbow warriors, staff necromancers, shortbow rangers, scepter guardians. The only meta condition build I can think of in melee is d/f ele, but even then, the signet or staff version of the build is also ranged. A few of the builds have melee weapons (s/s warrior, s/t ranger), but they mainly use ranged weapons .
On the other hand, the meta power builds: d/p or s/d teef, s/t + gs shatter mesmer, eviscerate warrior, d/f power necro (usually staff on swap), medi guard, d/d ele. Static discharge engi’s and longbow rangers (who usually run greatsword swap) are really the only two ranged power builds that are popular in WvW.
I don’t know why it’s this way, but the meta condition builds are overwhelmingly ranged, whereas the meta power builds are overwhelmingly melee.
Forgot the S/S warriors in there, which is always on condi Warriors.
Longbow also makes up Warrior power builds. You also left out Staff eles and Rifle burst engie on the Power builds.
So, we’re looking at Grenade engie, condi necro, scepter/staff mesmers, Axe/Torch Rangers, P/D Thief, and Longbow/SS Warriors as ranged condition builds (Guardians have no viable condition or ranged builds). That’s 6 builds. Power builds we have Longbow Rangers, GS Mesmers, Staff Eles, Longbow Warriors (let’s face it, every Warrior build runs Longbow right now), S/F ele, Axe/focus necro, rifle burst engie, SD engie, grenade engie (yes, this works well in Power). Hmm, pretty sure I missed some, but that’s 9 ranged Power builds right there…
Power builds may not be able to do that, but they also have no need to; their damage is already done. They don’t need to wait for their damage to take effect.
That’s worse for power builds. Condition builds don’t need to constantly land hits to dish out DPS. They only need to land a few hits, and even if the other attacks miss or if the player just runs around kiting, the conditions continue ticking. On the other hand, power builds don’t have the luxury of missing hits or kiting around because the player does no DPS if he doesn’t land hits.
You seem to have a massive case of confusion between Power/Condition and Melee/Ranged. Ranged builds kite, not condition builds. Very important difference.
Missing attacks isn’t something any build has a luxury of. You miss your attack, you do no damage. Power builds (especially Zerker) only need to land a few hits as well. I don’t see a difference there. You dodge a Maul or you dodge a Grasping Dead, the result is the same: you take none of the effects of that attack. Or are you one of those people that thinks conditions can’t be dodged?
Yes, the damage is already done for power builds, but that damage is often mitigated. The condition damage, even if it doesn’t tick for full duration, is still done fairly quickly. 2-3 ticks of a condition burst is already comparable damage to that of a power burst. Even if they cleanse the conditions after that, the damage is still done as well.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Oh wait, you’re serious. Sorry.
Nice try, but nope. No condition build in the game can dish out 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. I can name a ton of Power builds that do it, though. My Greatsword Ranger consistently lands 4k hits every 6 seconds with no buffs on her or debuffs on the target.
To hit 4k damage in 1 second, you would have to stack 25 bleeds, poison, burning, and Terror at 1k condition damage. This is an impossibility to stack quickly, so a so-called “condition burst” takes way longer to execute or kill than a Power burst.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Forgot the S/S warriors in there, which is always on condi Warriors.
I included S/S warriors, but they often spend more time on longbow than on S/S.
A few of the builds have melee weapons (s/s warrior, s/t ranger), but they mainly use ranged weapons .
Longbow also makes up Warrior power builds. You also left out Staff eles and Rifle burst engie on the Power builds.
Staff eles aren’t meta for roaming play (where this discussion is most relevant), and most power warriors pick greatsword over longbow for the mobility.
I also did include static discharge engi as a ranged power build.
Static discharge engi’s and longbow rangers (who usually run greatsword swap) are really the only two ranged power builds that are popular in WvW.
Power builds we have Longbow Rangers, GS Mesmers, Staff Eles, Longbow Warriors (let’s face it, every Warrior build runs Longbow right now), S/F ele, Axe/focus necro, rifle burst engie, SD engie, grenade engie (yes, this works well in Power). Hmm, pretty sure I missed some, but that’s 9 ranged Power builds right there…
I grant you longbow ranger and power nades/static discharge engis, but I’ve already conceded that in my post. GS mesmers usually run S/T for the burst, and if they did burst on GS, it would be in melee. S/F eles are much less popular than D/D eles, and axe/focus necro is in that gray area between ranged and melee. You include 3 different power engi builds, but they’re often the same build.
You seem to have a massive case of confusion between Power/Condition and Melee/Ranged. Ranged builds kite, not condition builds. Very important difference.
I don’t have any confusion. It just so happens that most of the meta condition builds are ranged, and most of the meta power builds are melee. However, even melee condition builds have a luxury of kiting that their melee power counterparts don’t.
Missing attacks isn’t something any build has a luxury of. You miss your attack, you do no damage. Power builds (especially Zerker) only need to land a few hits as well. I don’t see a difference there. You dodge a Maul or you dodge a Grasping Dead, the result is the same: you take none of the effects of that attack. Or are you one of those people that thinks conditions can’t be dodged?
That was poor word choice on my part. I don’t mean missing attacks as your performing an action that’s been dodged or blinded. What I mean is that condition builds have the luxury of not needing to constantly land hits to dish out DPS. If you want deal damage on a power build, you have to land hits, and time you spend not landing hits is time your opponent can wait on cd’s or heal up. The same isn’t true for condition builds, which only require landing a few hits that permit a lot of downtime in between, while still maintaining decent DPS.
Nice try, but nope. No condition build in the game can dish out 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. I can name a ton of Power builds that do it, though. My Greatsword Ranger consistently lands 4k hits every 6 seconds with no buffs on her or debuffs on the target.
A condition guardian’s burn is already 800-1200 damage a tick. Add a few ticks of bleed from geomancy, or poison from doom, or torment from sigils, and you easily get 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. Similarly, a P/D teef with balthazar runes applies 5 stacks of bleeds (let’s say 500/sec), 2 stacks of torment (let’s say 250/sec), 5 stacks of confusion (let’s say 500/sec), poison (let’s say 200/sec), and burning (let’s say 600/sec) in a single burst, and that’s easily 4k damage in 3 seconds. Those estimates are being conservative too.
Condition builds can easily achieve 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. Thinking otherwise is just delusional.
(edited by mango.9267)
Though I disagree with some of Second Child’s conclusions, he does make some points.
There are plenty of condition builds that can dish out 4K damage in 2-3 seconds.
Condition Rangers stack bleeds so fast it actually isn’t difficult to get past 15 stacks. In fact probably the only reason they can’t get to 25 stacks is they probably kill their opponent before it gets to be that much.
If you assume 140 bleed ticks (which is very possible for a ranger) with 15 stacks, that is 2,100 damage a second. Add burning that is another 850 damage a second. Add poison with the poison master trait that is another 450. That is about 3,400 damage a second, which really isn’t too far off 4,000 damage a second. Over 3 seconds that is over 10K damage. And these are long duration ticks. Yes you have condition removal, however condition application on most classes far outpace condition removal, unless of course you want to drastically reduce offensive output.
That actually happened to me lol, and I’m not exaggerating. This is just one example. Necros, Engis, and in fact any condition build can easily reach 4K in a few seconds. Except maybe condi guardian.
Even if all the conditions on you tick for 2K a second. This is more damage than what a lot of power builds can manage. And this is coming from dire specs, many of whom can have over 3K armor and 20K HP. Add protection and weakness on top of that, it’s a wrap.
IMO conditions in this game needs an overhaul, but conditions critting I don’t feel is the way to go.
And one other thing. Precision for a power build, is 10x more important than precision for a condition build. You can’t compare precision for the two. A Power build with no precision puts no reliable pressure and damage on an opponent. In fact, alot of condition builds don’t even need precision. Enter rangers, thieves, eles, and arguably most other classes as well. Conditions don’t need precision to reliably deal damage and kill somebody for the most part. You also can’t forget that most skills that apply condition damage also apply direct damage, the same isn’t necessarily true reversed.
I think there is just too much condition application flying everywhere, and are especially hidden as procs and things that are inevitable/unforeseeable in the grand scheme of things or just very difficult to avoid.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
I think that this would be worth exploring. The principal argument is sound – Condition builds only really need to spec into Condition Damage in order to change their damage output, when contrasted against power builds.
Additionally, the ability of classes to APPLY conditions does truly out-strip the ability to cleanse them. IMO this should be a “try-before-you-buy” kind of thing. I’m sure it’s possible to set up the conditions so that they would deal the same amount of damage that they deal now if you have 50% critical chance.
The question remains, whether the conditions have a chance to critical when applied, (600 damage tick burns vs 900 damage tick burns on critical) or whether each tick of the conditions gets a chance to critical
I will add there should be some form of counter balance to conditions in large group play. Condi damage should be relatively effective compared to power in PvE, Zergs, skirmish, etc without the need for gimmicks.
Several others have replied that articulate the problem with condi in small scale fights better than I. What we know is most high DPS condi builds center around Rabid armor which stacks toughness making them generally weak only against other condi builds. Other builds center around Dire armor which cuts DPS but still maintains a moderate amount of DPS with an enormous amount of bunker.
I believe a change like this would create more build diversity and help balance out power and condi in small scale fighting.
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