Guild Wars 2

What features does a good borderlands map need?

Rather than asking someone to guess what we want in a good borderlands map we can help by putting forward constructive ideas. Please keep to listing features and explaining why you think they are needed – this is NOT about existing maps. Also please remember that we may have differing opinions of what is needed – that’s ok: the purpose of this thread is to give Anet a better idea of everything our community thinks a good map requires. So make suggestions and explain them and we can hope they pick the good ones.

I have a few ideas to get us started but it’s not perfect. Please add your ideas too.

Keeps
Should be worth defending or attacking so must have some strategic value. Way points should be an upgrade and should be useable by whoever holds the keep. Keeps should be the hardest objectives to take on a map.

Towers
Towers need a strategic value, either because they provide support or refuge for an attacking force or because they provide a defensive role. Towers should be able to be taken by a standard party of 5 players.

Camps
Need to have value for defenders (supply for upgrades/repairs) as well as attacking teams (supply for siege).

Sentries
I like the idea of sentries “spotting” players and want to keep this. Sentries should be veterans that a moderately skilled player can solo. I’d put sentries on the easy routes between objectives, particularly at junctions. Perhaps sentries could have a talk-to interaction to give players directions to nearby places?

Terrain
Happy with a variety of terrain so no personal preference here as long as I can get from A to B and can see a reasonable distance. The terrain should give a variety of open spaces near key objectives such as keeps where large fights can occur, and in other places choke points to help prevent blob rule. I’d like to see some environmental things – I miss the houses and villagers (and chickens) we used to defend in the North of the old maps, and they provided relevant cover for sneaking about or chasing people round.

Routes
There should be one easy “pug” route to each objective so inexperienced players or people new to the map can easily move around. There should be other routes that are less obvious and provide some benefit, for example less chance of being spotted, or easier to defend if you’re being pursued.

Other features
Upgrades should follow a set pattern but require human interaction at each location for each step. An empty BL should not upgrade itself. Upgrades should take time and require a proportion of the supply held in the objective (denying supply to places under siege is a valid strategy and rightly requires the defenders to make tactical choices).
Yaks and sentries should drop materials for WvW guild upgrades so roamers, small and big guilds alike can collect these in WvW.

What you have looks pretty good for the most part. I’d only add that the keeps should be in the back lines, and the towers should be positioned in front of them. (Divide the map up into 3 thirds, the north, SE and SW, and build outward from the spawns, defensively.) And I’d specifify that between the thirds should be relatively flat and open, but the corridors and choke points should primarily be the entrances into the camps. This way the larger forces have plenty of room for open field fighting while pushing from their third into the enemy’s third, while smaller groups can use the terrain to their advantage while fighting over the camps.

I’d also add that a center event should be something relevant, so the servers will want to capture it, but not overpowering. A waypoint for the server that owns it is the best idea I can come up with. Have it set up like the bloodlust ruins were, in that there’s multiple capture points and 3 out of 5 need to be capped and held for a minute or so. If the keeps are set up in proper defensive positions, this waypoint would be pretty important to any server wishing to expand their control of the map. However, they’d still have to fight for what they get.

And there’s a few limitations that should be mentioned. Please no gimmick mechanics. (such as the buffs from the shrines, for example) Don’t make NPC mobs a crucial part of the gameplay. Keep it simple. Function over fashion.

the keeps and tower dont need need to be so large keep them simpler with a few choke points so a few can hold them. i like the veterans who guard the towers and keep and lmake it harder to bring down a wall but veterans in the rest of the world that do no guarding per say need to go

i agree people should be present to do the upgrades. i dont like autoupgrades . all upgrades should be free except a cost in supplies which brings back the reason for the yaks again and give a true seige feeling to the fights. if no supplies get in no upgrades so it a cordination thing must keep camps and yaks moving.

i think more visilbility would make the maps better so many times i still get lost i imagine people who havent getting fustrated and giving up wvw should promote want to plays not to get discouraged by having to take weird routes to get to places

sentries are a good idea and i love the spotting feature yes they did do something right there

as for the pve events im not sure i want them at all to keep the veteran creature thing keep a few veterans out of the way to ful fill that daily i think i prefer the ruins to the monuments and make them accessible or defensible without having to own anything.
yaks needs a purpose back

my biggest point is visibility less confusing routes with smaller areas to hide and seems like everywhere i go there a veteran sitting in my way. i dont mind them around the towers or keep defending but in the open and in the middle of everything

Thanks for the replies. One of the critical things seems to be to keep a range of objectives and events so all players have something they can do.

Are there any other things a good BL map needs?

There is a sticky by ArchonWing, you should put recommended changes there.

Thanks – I’m aware of Archonwing’s sticky and have posted there. However he is asking very different questions as I’m sure you know having read both.

This thread is not asking for recommended changes to the new maps, but asks instead what features do we as a WvW community think make a good map to play in – in other words what should Anet include in order to make any map we can all enjoy. They have had a try themselves with the Desert Borderlands and given the number of posts about it I thought it may be worth giving them some help in a positive way.

Despite the title, Archonwing’s thread is mainly asking about the impact of the new BL on players: probably so Anet can realise how what they have done has affected the people who play in WvW. The only overlap is where he asks “How can the new BL be improved”. This is not the same as “What features make a good BL map and why?”: firstly because I’m not suggesting we limit ourselves to using the new map as a starting point if we don’t want to, and secondly because I’m inviting people to explain why they think a particular feature is needed (so the devs can understand the reasons for any suggestions).

Hopefully this helps clear up why I thought this is worth a different thread.

TDLR: The two threads ask different things for different reasons.

Good Luck, that road has been traveled on for 3 years.

Yuffi.2430:

Thanks – I’m aware of Archonwing’s sticky and have posted there. However he is asking very different questions as I’m sure you know having read both.

This thread is not asking for recommended changes to the new maps, but asks instead what features do we as a WvW community think make a good map to play in – in other words what should Anet include in order to make any map we can all enjoy. They have had a try themselves with the Desert Borderlands and given the number of posts about it I thought it may be worth giving them some help in a positive way.

Despite the title, Archonwing’s thread is mainly asking about the impact of the new BL on players: probably so Anet can realise how what they have done has affected the people who play in WvW. The only overlap is where he asks “How can the new BL be improved”. This is not the same as “What features make a good BL map and why?”: firstly because I’m not suggesting we limit ourselves to using the new map as a starting point if we don’t want to, and secondly because I’m inviting people to explain why they think a particular feature is needed (so the devs can understand the reasons for any suggestions).

Hopefully this helps clear up why I thought this is worth a different thread.

TDLR: The two threads ask different things for different reasons.

Hopefully, this thread will end up getting stickied too.

Oh, and there is something else we’ve overlooked. A good Reward system. I’d say to use what they had in the old borderlands as a base. Then either give a set amount per tick to everyone involved in capturing it, defending it and/or maintaining it (setting up/ticking siege, ordering the upgrades, repairs, etc.). Or just go with the old system but triple the amount given for a successful assault, and give five times the old amount for a successful defense. I know it may seem like a lot, but…. it still wouldn’t even be on par with what be made by farming PvE. I’d even say to add the new materials to the normal WvW rank up chests too.

Bumping up the thread, as I had posted a similar thread without noticing this one! Good initiative Yuffi!

Djosdk.4612:

Bumping up the threat, as I had posted a similar threat without noticing this one! Good initiative Yuffi!

Anet is not very keen on threats, lol.

Loosmaster.8263:

Djosdk.4612:

Bumping up the threat, as I had posted a similar threat without noticing this one! Good initiative Yuffi!

Anet is not very keen on threats, lol.

lol, thanks for pointing out, I am pretty tired xD

Okay, so this is my opinion and should only be construed as such.

A good BL map for this game should have:
1. Three equidistant spawn points
2. A central keep with a moat(think SMC but larger), and a waypoint.
3. Two towers near each spawn point(home towers)
4. 4 towers nearer the central keep(preferably within treb range)
4a. These towers would “guard” bridges over the moat.
5. 1 supply camp feeding each tower with all supply camps ending at the central keep
6. Plenty of open space for open field near the towers/supply camps(think rolling hills)

This is all that would be needed to supply any and all WvW players with their chosen form of excitement. Now we all know that Anet would want to throw in some PvE mechanics as well even if not needed. I propose that they be minimized to the following.

1. A jumping puzzle that would be within range to shoot treb shots at the keep
2. A “Gigacannon” that could be captured(like the EotM statue cannon) by beating 3 Champion rabid Charr
3. A wyvern lair that was capturable, and the server that owned it could call the wyvern once per tick to drop wyvern breath on an area(area denial attack with lots of burning damage)

@Yuffi Would you say the alpine map was a great map or an okay map? Just trying to measure up the main aim of the post. (Are you hoping to revert to the old map or iron out the new one?)

It looks like you’re hoping to have the old borderlands back, and if so I’m behind you all the way. That place really felt like home (though it couldn’t have hurt to update it a little).

I also agree with your Other features section. For one, it would make a lot of sense if yaks dropped, say… crates that players could pick up and run to their garrison/keep/tower with (this encourages a lot more proactive gameplay around supply lines and even offers alternatives for siege defenders). I don’t think I’ve personally seen this suggested before.

Edit: I just saw that you had clarified the meaning of your post in a reply, so you can ignore the first two paragraphs of this reply if you wish.

Kaiser.9873:

Okay, so this is my opinion and should only be construed as such.

A good BL map for this game should have:
1. Three equidistant spawn points
2. A central keep with a moat(think SMC but larger), and a waypoint.
3. Two towers near each spawn point(home towers)
4. 4 towers nearer the central keep(preferably within treb range)
4a. These towers would “guard” bridges over the moat.
5. 1 supply camp feeding each tower with all supply camps ending at the central keep
6. Plenty of open space for open field near the towers/supply camps(think rolling hills)

This is all that would be needed to supply any and all WvW players with their chosen form of excitement. Now we all know that Anet would want to throw in some PvE mechanics as well even if not needed. I propose that they be minimized to the following.

1. A jumping puzzle that would be within range to shoot treb shots at the keep
2. A “Gigacannon” that could be captured(like the EotM statue cannon) by beating 3 Champion rabid Charr
3. A wyvern lair that was capturable, and the server that owned it could call the wyvern once per tick to drop wyvern breath on an area(area denial attack with lots of burning damage)

Some very curious ideas. The jumping puzzle would have to be quite tricky, or… perhaps there could be a few parts that can be destroyed (by defenders) and require supply to repair before trebbers can get to the top. Not overly sure about the cannon or wyvern, but they might work. Not a big fan of wedging PvE in, myself.

When you say equidistant spawn points, do you mean primary points or keep waypoints? And further; if you mean keep waypoints, do you mean one per server or the way it used to be – the owner of the keep decided the owner of the WP?

The rest of your suggestions sound a lot like the alpine map (except the moat on the central keep). That’s a plus in my books, haha. xD

Phantom.8130:

What you have looks pretty good for the most part. I’d only add that the keeps should be in the back lines, and the towers should be positioned in front of them. (Divide the map up into 3 thirds, the north, SE and SW, and build outward from the spawns, defensively.) And I’d specifify that between the thirds should be relatively flat and open, but the corridors and choke points should primarily be the entrances into the camps. This way the larger forces have plenty of room for open field fighting while pushing from their third into the enemy’s third, while smaller groups can use the terrain to their advantage while fighting over the camps.

I’d also add that a center event should be something relevant, so the servers will want to capture it, but not overpowering. A waypoint for the server that owns it is the best idea I can come up with. Have it set up like the bloodlust ruins were, in that there’s multiple capture points and 3 out of 5 need to be capped and held for a minute or so. If the keeps are set up in proper defensive positions, this waypoint would be pretty important to any server wishing to expand their control of the map. However, they’d still have to fight for what they get.

And there’s a few limitations that should be mentioned. Please no gimmick mechanics. (such as the buffs from the shrines, for example) Don’t make NPC mobs a crucial part of the gameplay. Keep it simple. Function over fashion.

This. Except I’m in favour of stuff akin to shrines being on the maps for roamers and smaller groups to utilize. And I would want NPC is play a more crucial part of the gameplay, they really don’t do anything except delay enemies by a small amount currently. If we are gonna get objectives that take more than 1 person to capture, we need npc that can do some actual damage. If you leave supply camps/towers are fine as they are. Keeps and castles though need to be buffed massively. There need to be events that only large groups can do. Currently everything can be done by ranges of 1-4 players. I would like this buffed to 1-10 players. Meaning that at least 10 players are needed to take the strongest fortifications. There needs to be ovjectives that give you a real since of accomplishment when you capture them. Right now were capping eachother’s keeps/castles like were flipping burgers.

-Oh and give all keeps/castles waypoints at lvl 3, without restriction on who can use them.

Swift.1930:

Kaiser.9873:

Okay, so this is my opinion and should only be construed as such.

A good BL map for this game should have:
1. Three equidistant spawn points
2. A central keep with a moat(think SMC but larger), and a waypoint.
3. Two towers near each spawn point(home towers)
4. 4 towers nearer the central keep(preferably within treb range)
4a. These towers would “guard” bridges over the moat.
5. 1 supply camp feeding each tower with all supply camps ending at the central keep
6. Plenty of open space for open field near the towers/supply camps(think rolling hills)

This is all that would be needed to supply any and all WvW players with their chosen form of excitement. Now we all know that Anet would want to throw in some PvE mechanics as well even if not needed. I propose that they be minimized to the following.

1. A jumping puzzle that would be within range to shoot treb shots at the keep
2. A “Gigacannon” that could be captured(like the EotM statue cannon) by beating 3 Champion rabid Charr
3. A wyvern lair that was capturable, and the server that owned it could call the wyvern once per tick to drop wyvern breath on an area(area denial attack with lots of burning damage)

Some very curious ideas. The jumping puzzle would have to be quite tricky, or… perhaps there could be a few parts that can be destroyed (by defenders) and require supply to repair before trebbers can get to the top. Not overly sure about the cannon or wyvern, but they might work. Not a big fan of wedging PvE in, myself.

When you say equidistant spawn points, do you mean primary points or keep waypoints? And further; if you mean keep waypoints, do you mean one per server or the way it used to be – the owner of the keep decided the owner of the WP?

The rest of your suggestions sound a lot like the alpine map (except the moat on the central keep). That’s a plus in my books, haha. xD

Alpine map thematically, but think more Spain than Germany.

When I say equidistant what I mean is home in the far north, red SE corner, and blue SW corner. No home keep at all. One keep per BL that’s it. This serves a couple of purposes. One, it makes the towers far more important, especially the “inner” towers. Two it makes whoever takes the keep need to control the keep. It also promotes more of a three-way battle rather than the old; “You take that side, we take this side, and try to keep the home team in the top third.”

Ideally there would be plenty of open field action going on as well, since in my vision PPK is a real thing again. Also unlike the current EBG model home towers would be a bit more spread allowing more “used” space rather than all the unused space in the corners of the map. The moat should act like a real barrier. Not many places to get out once you are in. Control of the inner towers would be a huge boon for people trying to cross the moat, or to exit the moat.

Terrain would be flatter than the old Alpine maps, but not flat. There could easily be ravines, river beds, and other low spots that would allow a force to move relatively stealthily without the amount of terrain disadvantages that were present in the Alpine maps, and are even more present in the Desert maps.

Believe me those PvE options were completely spur of the moment thoughts. We all know Anet wouldn’t design a map without some kind of PvE elements, and so I tried to think like a dev for a moment.

Kaiser.9873:

Alpine map thematically, but think more Spain than Germany.

When I say equidistant what I mean is home in the far north, red SE corner, and blue SW corner. No home keep at all. One keep per BL that’s it. This serves a couple of purposes. One, it makes the towers far more important, especially the “inner” towers. Two it makes whoever takes the keep need to control the keep. It also promotes more of a three-way battle rather than the old; “You take that side, we take this side, and try to keep the home team in the top third.”

Ideally there would be plenty of open field action going on as well, since in my vision PPK is a real thing again. Also unlike the current EBG model home towers would be a bit more spread allowing more “used” space rather than all the unused space in the corners of the map. The moat should act like a real barrier. Not many places to get out once you are in. Control of the inner towers would be a huge boon for people trying to cross the moat, or to exit the moat.

Terrain would be flatter than the old Alpine maps, but not flat. There could easily be ravines, river beds, and other low spots that would allow a force to move relatively stealthily without the amount of terrain disadvantages that were present in the Alpine maps, and are even more present in the Desert maps.

Believe me those PvE options were completely spur of the moment thoughts. We all know Anet wouldn’t design a map without some kind of PvE elements, and so I tried to think like a dev for a moment.

Hmm… no home keep, and the other keeps positioned for other servers’ convenience? I mean, it is our server’s borderlands we’re fighting for, not some ambiguous battleground like EBG. There needs to be strategic defensive reason behind the placement of homeland keeps. (They weren’t built by each server, but rather by the server whose borderland it is.) I really liked the feeling of homeland that the alpine maps conveyed. The map you’re describing probably belongs in PvP as a 10v10v10 (or something like that) game mode (although somewhat smaller and without upgrades or gates that require siege weapons).

Details like these are important. Thanks to everyone in thread for actually giving concrete info.

I hope it gets read.

P.S. Consider making an actual map drawing to get into specifics/mechanics.

My two cents on this: center events have not been well received. Bloodlust was ok, but the rest not so great.

I’d suggest a single tower with 100 curving steps up to lord to be king of the heap. This offers something for brute force raids, as well as siege fiends. Upgrades give the home team a portal to the top from outside (if you can reach it).

Maybe have this newly claimed center island tower show enemy on all the map for like a minute after flipping it as reward. Better yet, have it momenarily show enemy siege placement (so you can see if enemy objectives are piled with ACs trebs, particularly useful for a golem army, etc).

And bring back the lakes surrounding it.

Jayne.9251:

Maybe have this newly claimed center island tower show enemy on all the map for like a minute after flipping it as reward. Better yet, have it momenarily show enemy siege placement (so you can see if enemy objectives are piled with ACs trebs, particularly useful for a golem army, etc).

Aaaand that’s where you lost me, because as usual this is a type of suggestion that replace the work of scouts, an essential aspect to the reason people even play WvW. Commanders ask “is there siege in that keep?” and someone say “oh I’ll go right on ahead to check!”. Communication. Teamplay.

Automated mechanics like this “siege spotter” idea are just bad.

That said, I’m not averse to having tower in the centre that give… something… but it need to be… hm… I would say it should alter the map mechanics slightly. Something more physical than minimap stuff. The way the spikes in desert garri works is actually an excellent comparison. I dont know how many know this, but you can manually reconfigure the spikes inside garri via a console in order to disrupt enemy forces coming through the gates. A central tower as an event should be able to affect something similar on the map, boosting defense of keeps.

For example, it could be the eqvivalent of a “power station” that improve garri, bay and hills defense. Maybe electrified doors, hehehe. Or maybe it has a console that raise a forcefield around inner keep, preventing entrance for a minute. Stuff like that.

Something that let people work together to achieve a goal. Not something that gives everyone x-ray vision.

Jayne.9251:

Details like these are important. Thanks to everyone in thread for actually giving concrete info.

I hope it gets read.

P.S. Consider making an actual map drawing to get into specifics/mechanics.

Here’s a map I came up with a few days back. It’s just a first draft, and nothing’s set in stone. I figure that it can be used just to get thing started, and altered and adjusted based on feedback.

As far as the distances between things on the map, the keeps and towers closest to them would be at the max treb range of each other. The distance between the towers would be the max treb range as well. Just barely enough to hit the wall, but not enough to hit any of the siege inside. The center of the map would be where a capturable waypoint would be. The white area could be a giant keep, or a giant tower, or even several bloodlust ruins style capture points to make roamers even more important, or even bringing back the quaggans, or a combination of things.

I figure the landscape should be sloped downward towards the middle, so the entire map almost resembles a giant bowl. The areas around the keeps and towers should be flat and open, to promote open field fighting, while the areas near the camps should be where the choke points are concentrated, to give roamers an advantage there.

Phantom.8130:

Here’s a map I came up with a few days back. It’s just a first draft, and nothing’s set in stone. I figure that it can be used just to get thing started, and altered and adjusted based on feedback.

While I mostly like the design of the upper part, I think the lower part is entirely wrong. The concept of a home border should be that the 3 keeps (if we are sticking to the 3 keep “triangle” foundation) is on or above the frontline, the main combat area. The home border server should feel safe in trying to defend all 3 keeps against the 2 invading servers – thats what bring the fights.

I can instantly see that your idea does not do this. Home server will not be able to defend hills and bay (lets just call them that lol) nor the two left/right towers within the green zone (too far from the keeps), which leave only garri, some camps and the two towers as the main bastion on the map.

In comparison on alpine, the main bastion was nw/ne tower, 3 camps, garri, bay and hills while the two border towers and 3 camps are “below” this line, areas the enemy could easily control.

To compare with desert, it sort of share the alpine design but hills and bay are way too far apart, making it a stretch (literally) to try to defend. And of course its utterly ruined by T0 waypoints which completely mess up the frontline (its pretty much garri and a supply camp and thats it, the rest is easily held by enemies).

if I was home I could post some pictures of what I mean, but unfortunetly its time for work

Dawdler.8521:

Phantom.8130:

Here’s a map I came up with a few days back. It’s just a first draft, and nothing’s set in stone. I figure that it can be used just to get thing started, and altered and adjusted based on feedback.

While I mostly like the design of the upper part, I think the lower part is entirely wrong. The concept of a home border should be that the 3 keeps (if we are sticking to the 3 keep “triangle” foundation) is on or above the frontline, the main combat area. The home border server should feel safe in trying to defend all 3 keeps against the 2 invading servers – thats what bring the fights.

I can instantly see that your idea does not do this. Home server will not be able to defend hills and bay (lets just call them that lol) nor the two left/right towers within the green zone (too far from the keeps), which leave only garri, some camps and the two towers as the main bastion on the map.

In comparison on alpine, the main bastion was nw/ne tower, 3 camps, garri, bay and hills while the two border towers and 3 camps are “below” this line, areas the enemy could easily control.

To compare with desert, it sort of share the alpine design but hills and bay are way too far apart, making it a stretch (literally) to try to defend. And of course its utterly ruined by T0 waypoints which completely mess up the frontline (its pretty much garri and a supply camp and thats it, the rest is easily held by enemies).

if I was home I could post some pictures of what I mean, but unfortunetly its time for work

Oh, I figured each server should have 1 keep on the map, to act as a foothold there. And also Siegerazer would go to the keeps instead of the towers. Once a server has a foothold, they can begin expanding outward from there.

As for the side towers, yeah. That area just looked really empty to me, and I didn’t know what else to put there lol. Hmm…. Maybe if I removed those and just slid the whole south up, that might be better. I attached what that would look like below. Let me know what you think.

EDIT:This version of the map isn’t pretty, but just to get the general layout fleshed out. Once we have that, then we can worry about prettying it up.

Here are the best features… Alpine maps. They can give em a nice visual makeover to make them look better.

Dawdler.8521:

Jayne.9251:

Maybe have this newly claimed center island tower show enemy on all the map for like a minute after flipping it as reward. Better yet, have it momenarily show enemy siege placement (so you can see if enemy objectives are piled with ACs trebs, particularly useful for a golem army, etc).

Aaaand that’s where you lost me, because as usual this is a type of suggestion that replace the work of scouts, an essential aspect to the reason people even play WvW. Commanders ask “is there siege in that keep?” and someone say “oh I’ll go right on ahead to check!”. Communication. Teamplay.

Yah yah yah. I’m a scout too, remember? :p

I was trying to figure out a good incentive for those who like to blob only vs rest of WvW team. The new sentries showing enemy briefly in the mini-map seems to have been a good idea, most folks like it and use it.

So this tower should be a special unicorn, there has to be benefits to slog up the 100 step choke/blood battle, as well as there needs to be reasons to defend. It absolutely would be a king of the heap kind of victory. If no one’s there to defend, then it’s just a rather long jog up a set of stairs. But if we had a portal like Bay now has that zooms defenders to the top from outside, (that only comes with T3 upgrade), it would give some last-minute epic saves/battles.

And there has to be a reason to WANT to save it. If it gives away your siege placement on map (albeit briefly and you better have a good memory, cos you only get 60 seconds), AND if it gives garri electric gates (love that idea), then you will definately want to control that tower from a scout/defensive perspective.

From an enemy perspective, it knocks down the keep upgrade (electricity), AND gives you a quick peek at the map for further strategy (what had less siege? target it next, etc ..)

Dunno, just brainstorming. Always liked the idea of a lone, tall tower at the center of a lake (INC water battles! Oh how I miss those).

Jayne.9251:

Dawdler.8521:

Jayne.9251:

Maybe have this newly claimed center island tower show enemy on all the map for like a minute after flipping it as reward. Better yet, have it momenarily show enemy siege placement (so you can see if enemy objectives are piled with ACs trebs, particularly useful for a golem army, etc).

Aaaand that’s where you lost me, because as usual this is a type of suggestion that replace the work of scouts, an essential aspect to the reason people even play WvW. Commanders ask “is there siege in that keep?” and someone say “oh I’ll go right on ahead to check!”. Communication. Teamplay.

Yah yah yah. I’m a scout too, remember? :p

I was trying to figure out a good incentive for those who like to blob only vs rest of WvW team. The new sentries showing enemy briefly in the mini-map seems to have been a good idea, most folks like it and use it.

So this tower should be a special unicorn, there has to be benefits to slog up the 100 step choke/blood battle, as well as there needs to be reasons to defend. It absolutely would be a king of the heap kind of victory. If no one’s there to defend, then it’s just a rather long jog up a set of stairs. But if we had a portal like Bay now has that zooms defenders to the top from outside, (that only comes with T3 upgrade), it would give some last-minute epic saves/battles.

And there has to be a reason to WANT to save it. If it gives away your siege placement on map (albeit briefly and you better have a good memory, cos you only get 60 seconds), AND if it gives garri electric gates (love that idea), then you will definately want to control that tower from a scout/defensive perspective.

From an enemy perspective, it knocks down the keep upgrade (electricity), AND gives you a quick peek at the map for further strategy (what had less siege? target it next, etc ..)

Dunno, just brainstorming. Always liked the idea of a lone, tall tower at the center of a lake (INC water battles! Oh how I miss those).

Ok. How about a really tall tower with a waypoint at the top, and a portal going down to the bottom that the “owners” can use? The waypoint would give it significant map relevance, kinda like how to the waypoint in SM does, so the owners would want to keep it and the other servers would want to claim it. The question is, should the stairs be on the inside or the outside, or both?

Phantom.8130:

EDIT:This version of the map isn’t pretty, but just to get the general layout fleshed out. Once we have that, then we can worry about prettying it up.

The only thing I’m not overly fussed about is the gates in the middle of the map. It’s too central and too easy for people to race to the gate to prevent a stomp. We already have the “exit the mists” heroes .. let’s make it a bit tougher for them.

Phantom.8130:

Ok. How about a really tall tower with a waypoint at the top, and a portal going down to the bottom that the “owners” can use? The waypoint would give it significant map relevance, kinda like how to the waypoint in SM does, so the owners would want to keep it and the other servers would want to claim it. The question is, should the stairs be on the inside or the outside, or both?

I love that idea!

Stairs definately inside only. Have to get the gate down to at least start climbing the stairs. Defenders can use ac to control chokes, but a massive blob will just brute force it and win if there’s not an early response. And a small havoc team can flip it too, if it’s not watched at all.

Edit: mind you, if the stairs were on the outside too, there could be some epically fun battles there as well — people getting pitched off just as they near the top. I suppose that would lead to a forum-full of complaints on griefing tho. But imagining people flying off the top to their deaths is marginally funny to me at the moment.

Jayne.9251:

Phantom.8130:

EDIT:This version of the map isn’t pretty, but just to get the general layout fleshed out. Once we have that, then we can worry about prettying it up.

The only thing I’m not overly fussed about is the gates in the middle of the map. It’s too central and too easy for people to race to the gate to prevent a stomp. We already have the “exit the mists” heroes .. let’s make it a bit tougher for them.

Oh, that’s more along the lines of a waypoint. I figured that it would be something for a server to capture and hold, and then whoever’s holding it would be able to waypoint there from another gate set up inside their keep. I originally figured something along the lines of how running the orb used to work, where you had to get the orb and take it to your keep. Though it was the actual running it and mounting it parts that would get hacked/exploited via fly hacking. So instead, it would either need to be escorting an NPC, or capturing an area.

It’s not one of the gates to go back to PvEland.

Jayne.9251:

Phantom.8130:

Ok. How about a really tall tower with a waypoint at the top, and a portal going down to the bottom that the “owners” can use? The waypoint would give it significant map relevance, kinda like how to the waypoint in SM does, so the owners would want to keep it and the other servers would want to claim it. The question is, should the stairs be on the inside or the outside, or both?

I love that idea!

Stairs definately inside only. Have to get the gate down to at least start climbing the stairs. Defenders can use ac to control chokes, but a massive blob will just brute force it and win if there’s not an early response. And a small havoc team can flip it too, if it’s not watched at all.

Ok. I’ll update the map then.

Phantom.8130:

Oh, I figured each server should have 1 keep on the map, to act as a foothold there.

Problem with this is that its not so much a border anymore – its EB/EoTM lite. A border IMO isnt supposed to be “fair”. Its supposed to be either your home or enemy territory. Each side having a keep close to spawn as an equal “foothold” doesnt go well with that. This is the reason I despise T0 waypoints, it basicly make 2 out of the 3 keeps another servers property. Makes it feel like you are the aggressor in your own home.

Your map design would for example be more suitable for a single instanced border. Thats not necessarily a bad idea but I really cant approve of it myself.

Dawdler.8521:

Phantom.8130:

Oh, I figured each server should have 1 keep on the map, to act as a foothold there.

Problem with this is that its not so much a border anymore – its EB/EoTM lite. A border IMO isnt supposed to be “fair”. Its supposed to be either your home or enemy territory. Each side having a keep close to spawn as an equal “foothold” doesnt go well with that. This is the reason I despise T0 waypoints, it basicly make 2 out of the 3 keeps another servers property. Makes it feel like you are the aggressor in your own home.

Your map design would for example be more suitable for a single instanced border. Thats not necessarily a bad idea but I really cant approve of it myself.

Ok. Readjusted it. The distances between the towers and the keeps is a max treb length. The NE and NW camps send a yak to the NE and NW towers, and to the North Keep. The Central camp sends a yak to the NE and NW towers, and then to North Keep. The SE sends a yak to the SE tower and East Keep. The SW camp sends a yak to the SW tower and West Keep. And the South Keep sends a yak to the SW tower, then West Keep, and another yak to the SE tower and East Keep.

The NE and NW towers block the road to the north keep and NE and NW camps, but also act as staging posts to attack the North Keep, and the East/West Keeps. The center area is a giant tower, surrounded by a moat, with a giant spiral staircase that can be captured and will have a waypoint on top for the server that holds it to use.

Areas need x amount of yaks to upgrade, which needs to be manually clicked, so that roamers can still kill yaks/flip camps to deny upgrades. Waypoints in Keeps come at Tier 3.

The area near the roads between the keeps and towers is relatively flat and open. The areas around the camps are partially enclosed with choke points for roamers to use.

That’s a full recap of everything so far. How does it look/sound?

I think it’s looking good.

I was thinking about the tower in the centre. I imagined a tall tapering tower with a largish flat platform on top (like a light house with a helipad). I would put two stairs spiralling up the outside on opposite sides of the tower (DNA double helix style). This would allow people to race to the top, or if you’re on top to run away down the other side…
I would have three platforms partway up the tower. These would be open internal flat floors designed so the stairs run past outside and you can step “inside” onto the floor area. This would allow some interesting fighting as control of these levels would affect movement on the stairs, but you could stealth past if you wanted to.
I’d have the lowest one fairly plain for a fighting area. The middle one would have a claiming console (commune style like tranquillity in PvP?) or Lord to fight and defeat to claim the tower. The top level would house the waypoint.
The very top external platform would have an interact that allows players to claim a single use glider function that would work for ANY player. This would allow you to glide from the tower downwards until your gliding endurance bar runs out. Ideally this would have a range that puts you very close to (but not inside) a key objective.

Why? The tower becomes strategic because the quickest path between any two points is a straight line and gliding would allow this.
The waypoint should be in the level below so players can’t just spawn and glide off – a brief run up the stairs (internal or external) gives a short time for an opponent to attack.

I don’t think gliding would unbalance the map too much – after all you can’t attack when gliding, and any roamer worth their pay should spot an incoming glider zerg… The advantage would be about being able to take a quicker direct line route to objectives (probably the 4 towers and two side keeps – I’d have the home garrison equivalent keep higher up, but you could land close to a southern gate maybe?). The map design so far seems to have a roughly circular separation of locations from the central tower so this could even work.

Anyway, I’d best stop here before I get too carried away here and end up with something too complex or unbalanced! Would it work? Don’t know, what do you think?

Would it be fun? Yes (IMHO).
Would it be fun for more than 5 minutes? Now that’s the tricky question…

This is an interesting idea, but I think the spiral staircase creates an issue. There needs to be a secondary path to the lord’s room.

From an attacker stand point, the single spiral staircase would mean pushing up into what is likely going to be a massive choke point guarded by 5-10 arrow carts. It greatly limits your options in terms of strategy, and would likely just turn a lot of zergs off to the prospect of trying to take the keep.

From a defender’s standpoint, again, you just need to seige the crap out of the chokepoint. However, I think the biggest problem would be if you die on the defender side during a push. If you die, you then either need to wait for the waypoint to open or try to push through the enemy zerg on the staircase. -_- Not many classes have the ability to make that push.

These are really awesome ideas and initiative. +1 support <3 As a community we have to get things back on track. The Alpine map had very simple concepts which made it easy for people to just go to anytime and I’d love to see that with these layouts you guys are putting forth. The middle ground WP is a great idea, the thing the new BL’s are sorely lacking is the ability to move from point A to B easily, we’re gamers, we’re lazy LOL.

The camp placement in the northern section make great use of the once notoriously empty NW and NE Corners (Alpine) and I really like the idea, as the new maps do well, not having a desolate and pointlessly open northern section. The idea is to be streamlined and compact?

Yuffi.2430:

I think it’s looking good.

I was thinking about the tower in the centre. I imagined a tall tapering tower with a largish flat platform on top (like a light house with a helipad). I would put two stairs spiralling up the outside on opposite sides of the tower (DNA double helix style). This would allow people to race to the top, or if you’re on top to run away down the other side…

I like the lighthouse idea shape, and I do like the outside double helix idea too (but as I said previously, I wonder how much it would be used for griefing: punt —-> die, over and over — I’m looking at YOU Maguuma! cough). It’s why I kind of settled back into the idea of a single inner staircase where you have to knock down a gate to get in.

I’d only want one platform, so that you have the chance to double dodge right off the edge and go splat to the ground if you aren’t careful in your play.

Lord should be at the very top, where there’s greater danger of falling and dying (note: lord cannot have knockback, that would be unfair, but certainly can have cc). But class skills that push/pull are ok .. so mind your footing!

I also love the single-use glider idea. I think if it’s limited so that you can only use it from that middle tower wp and cannot possibly glide into a keep or tower, then yes, very cool idea.

I think at this stage of the game the BLs should be 3 different maps. The current dessert map sliced into 3 pieces would have been ideal.

I hope it’s now clear to Anet that 3 copies of the same single huge map does not work. I cannot help but think of the thousands of dev hours that could have been saved were Anet the kind of company that sought player feedback at the concept stage.

Ok. 3 levels on the tower. How about this? The first level, the stairs are on the inside. Then it switches to a double helix layer up the outside to go up to the second level. Up there is the Tower Lord (possibly with special mechanics like the lords in the new map?), and the gate going down to the bottom. From there, is another outer layer, but only a single one up to the top where the waypoint is.

I think it would be best to avoid including the gliding with these maps, to make sure that no one can just glide into a tower from up there, and to not leave out anyone that didn’t buy HoT.

Can this thread be stickied, so that it doesn’t keep falling off the page, and people can post their suggestions here instead of making new threads for them?

There’s one thing I’d like to add: the borderlands should have a significant advantage for the home team. Significant here means that even a weak server compared to the other two can keep control of most of their BL. Then even when your server gets crushed ppt-wise, it is still possible to find interesting fights.

Hmm…. just had a thought. What if PPT only came from the keeps? That would ensure they’re the primary targets. With the layout of the towers actually blocking the way to the keeps, those would still be important targets too as buffers/staging posts, but it would mean a zerg couldn’t just come in, grab a couple towers then map hop away. They would have to take a keep to make any really difference in the score, which would promote several fights along the way. And unless a server is just outright dominating all of the maps, it would keep the scores relatively close throughout the week, which would keep things competitive and avoid people giving up after the weekend because it’s already a blowout.

Kirito.2195:

These are really awesome ideas and initiative. +1 support <3 As a community we have to get things back on track. The Alpine map had very simple concepts which made it easy for people to just go to anytime and I’d love to see that with these layouts you guys are putting forth. The middle ground WP is a great idea, the thing the new BL’s are sorely lacking is the ability to move from point A to B easily, we’re gamers, we’re lazy LOL.

The camp placement in the northern section make great use of the once notoriously empty NW and NE Corners (Alpine) and I really like the idea, as the new maps do well, not having a desolate and pointlessly open northern section. The idea is to be streamlined and compact?

The main idea is to ensure everything is strategically relevant and create a better environment and atmosphere in WvW. The layout they’ve used for the north in both borderlands maps was literally the complete opposite of strategic relevance, so flipping it upside down was the best possible way to go. The result was the camps being up in those corners. Which killed two birds with one stone.

If they absolutely insist on having the skritt and a second group of NPC mobs, they can stick them way off to the outsides of the northern towers and make them mercenaries like the ones in EB. So that they’d actually have some relevance too.

I like the idea of a giant tower in the middle of the map
this could save a lot of time traveling. only problem to keep players from abusing it would be to set a 10 or 15 minute cool down way point after a player dies or uses it.
of course this should only be use for players that are in their home borderland.

Good borderland would insta kill blobs.

darkaheart.4265:

I like the idea of a giant tower in the middle of the map
this could save a lot of time traveling. only problem to keep players from abusing it would be to set a 10 or 15 minute cool down way point after a player dies or uses it.
of course this should only be use for players that are in their home borderland.

How about this? No front gate so teams can just run straight into it, and it goes contested when there’s combat there the same way the current ones do? This would allow small groupss to sneak in and steal it, and large ones to fight it out for it.

It would need to be able to be used by whatever team held it, so that it would actually be useful in expanding territory during a push. If it was just the home server, then it would be too hard for attackers to make any kind of progress on the map, effectively rendering them static. There needs to be some potential advantages the attackers can capture, and for servers to fight over. If the deck is stacked too far in the home server’s advantage, attackers won’t even bother trying to make a push on the maps, then they’ll just end up as empty as the current ones.

If any of you played DAOC they had RVR… aka wvw and i think a few ways this game could fix the whole WVW thing would be the following:

1. all of the maps are connected through gates, no more zoning to BL they are all connected by mini towers/ gates that can be controlled by a faction and broken easily.
2. Bring back Relics and change the bonuses to have minimal bonuses in pvp (slight upgrade) to huger ones in PVE: +% bonus to karma, xp, magic find (lol) any and all of the above.
3. there needs to be more of a reason to get people to wvw that dont really enjoy WvW into WvW, aka making a dungeon or zone that whatever server controls X number of towers/keeps/ etc etc gets access to this zone for money/loot/ whatever. its a zone that you can pvp in also.
4. Every server gets 1 local Zone in and WP, by capturing keeps and upgrading the WP then you may port around. but everyone server always starts out with 1. making it harder for zergs to just show up.
5. Guards and keep lords need to be even harder to kill, and siege needs to take longer on doors/buildings. i say this because right now its blob blob blob 40s, 50s, 60s make these things harder, smaller numbers can defend and put up a fight.
6. rewards for winning each week need to be more rewarding i dont know how you go balancing that but it needs to be beneficial for the server where everyone gets excited.
7. if you want to lure more pvers out , add a pve dynamic event somewhere (dragon). if you connected all the borderlands. EOTM is a great idea but all the borderlands Connected could be the same.

These are things id love to see being a player that came from DAOC, ive seen people cry about zergs in this game but it has nothing on the numbers DAOC had.. 200+ man zerg attempting to take a keep

Nuuuuu! Mah tower isn’t a McDonald’s date!

Must. Have. Gate.

Must. Play. Hard. To. Get!

Wp for tower comes at T3 upgrade. Not insta WP.

Jayne.9251:

Nuuuuu! Mah tower isn’t a McDonald’s date!

Must. Have. Gate.

Must. Play. Hard. To. Get!

Wp for tower comes at T3 upgrade. Not insta WP.

Hmm…. How about this then? Have the tower on an island surrounded by a moat, and have a wall kinda like how the old bay inner used to be? Not the height drop, but how the wall was a little bit back from the shoreline. But only an outer wall with some gates, but no inner wall/gate. And have the waypoint come at T3, but have this be the only area that auto upgrades. Given that it would be on an island, and there wouldn’t really be any way for yaks to actually get to it.

I think it should be more of a combat area, rather than a capture and hold area. Something that’s easier to attack the wall with siege than it is to defend the wall with siege, but better to defend with open field combat. I think sentries/scouts would already have enough areas they’d need to spread out and cover, and this area should be important enough to draw people there to keep it fairly hotly contested. This area should be unique, and unlike the other areas on the map. If it works exactly like the other areas on the map, then it loses some of its uniqueness, ya know?

This is all well and good that you guys are putting the effort into commenting here.

IMHO it isn’t the map, but the mechanics of how WvW is played. It is still a siege-based PPT warfare system that’s been played out already over the past three years.

“All those suggestions are not going to suddenly convert “fights guilds” into PPTers nor the casual PvXer into performing a long siege nor a roamer into a camp flipping yak skinner."

I don’t think the idea is to convert players to a different style – that’s not something I would support!

A good map should have areas/incentives for each play style.
There needs to be:
> purpose for scouts and roamers,
> something meaningful solo players can achieve,
> space and incentive for groups to gather for large fights – whether in the open field or outside a keep for example,
> some way for new players to jump right in and quickly learn the ropes,
> enough complexity/variety for the veteran players to enjoy,
> several viable strategies for defending/attacking

The real challenge is to design a map that can allow all of this, and the more people with different play styles who contribute the more chance we have of developing something that is an acceptable compromise.

We have more people who can suggest ideas than there are devs at Anet, and we have more WvW experience between us, so let’s try to help them and make WvW a better place for us all.