Guild Wars 2

Hello WvW Community.

As there seems to be quite a few concerns and comments on the new maps we’ve just gotten, I’d like to gather up some feedback in a single place and ask a few questions.

Please format your post to answer these statements. You don’t have to answer all of them. Please stay on topic and do not make negative comments about other posts even if you know they’re totally wrong. Do not make passive aggressive comments about anyone. Please do not include salt in your post.

This thread shall be ongoing, so if you have had a change of heart for any reason, you may continue posting, but obviously don’t spam it every day.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

Roaming, either small group or solo camp flipping / yak escorting (or slapping)

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

Didn’t really go to EBG

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

In new BL, spend an hour running to a camp to realize it’s fully upgraded automatically, and therefore really hard for one person to flip. Or spend an hour running to get taken out in the middle of the road by a wandering group and have to do it all again.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

In theory, combat would seem more dynamic. In practice, it is annoying as there are too many ‘side elements’ that just throw things off (capturing orbs and alters and such). Also, vertical layout is only conducive to wasting time.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Much longer, due to auto-upgrades, removal of buffs (guard killer / defense against guards), and nerfing to food

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

Probably the same, though I loathe that it is all automatically applied now. Don’t own HoT yet, so no thoughts on elites.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Probably will spend far less time there. Just too much running.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Make them alpine sized (or SLIGHTLY larger), and desert theme. Or make them all different…someone gets alpine, someone gets desert, etc.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

Probably would get bored an log out from all the running

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Frustratingly. Too many changes and additions of things like PvE mobs.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Enemy BL, as at least that way I can have somewhat easy access to action.

-In recent months, I’ve played WvW with guilds that generally get up to 20-25 people max, or we do small havoc/roaming groups (2-5). With the larger group, we would run around mostly looking for fights, and y’know taking towers and keeps. Lately in T3, we have been outnumbered quite a bit as other servers seem to be running a lot of 30+ groups.

-I don’t go to EB often. With the new maps, I’ve only solo roamed so far, so still waiting to see how it goes with a group. So far, the maps feel really big- although, running from garri to the east keep didn’t really feel that long inbewteen keeps. I think a lot of the excess space is within the keeps themselves. I think the towers and keeps will be much harder for small groups to take, now. Which seems a little contradictory since the new map sizes seem to encourage people to spread out, which would mean smaller groups…

-I have spent time as a scout in the past, and I have to say these new keeps are a bit intimidating. I know they’re meant to be easier to defend now, but they’re just SO big. After a while I’m sure we won’t be feeling lost inside them- but still, how much time will it take to run around and check every gate for attackers, or to build siege, etc? I feel that it’s just unnecessary for the keeps to be as big as they are, it’s too much empty space.

-I hear a lot of people saying they’ll probably spend more time on EB now- and EB might become the new roaming map. I’m wondering if leaving one old map was a good idea, as now it gives people a place to run back to where they feel comfortable, instead of forcing them to adjust to the new maps.

-I’m not sure about wxp or rewards yet, although it is nice that we don’t have to spend money on upgrades now.

-I like how the shrine system and oasis events seem to give a little more activity for roamers- especially how in the oasis, it targets people on the map who have picked up an item. However, it’s still getting a little too PvE-y for my taste. I found the Inferno Hound transformation in the fire keep, and while it was fun (and really powerful), it seems too EoTM-y for me as well. After all, WvWers want to fight people, not..dogs.

-I don’t really understand the open waypoints in south towers that anyone can use. I’m not sure it’s even really a bad thing, I just don’t understand why enemies can waypoint into someone else’s tower.

-As for new players, I don’t think these new maps are welcoming at all. I mean right now we’re all new to the maps, and most people seem to feel it takes too long to run anywhere, and that the map is confusing and easy to get lost in. For players who are new to the maps AND WvW? They have to deal with the extra confusion of learning wvw, and now it’s harder to cap things with small groups…So I’d guess new players wouldn’t stay very long unless they can find a large guild quickly. PvE players are used to farming, and running all the way across this huge map for our scarce WvW rewards is just not going to make new players want to stay.

I think that overall, reset will be the first real test of the new maps. We’ll see tonight how easy it is to find fights and take objectives, and that will likely be a deciding factor for a lot of people. I’m expecting big queues for EB, but hopefully enough people are pushed into the BLs that we can really see if they’re too big or not.

- Typical hour for me would be solo roaming or up to around 5 people. What I did depended on the opposition I ran into. Sometimes I would take a camp or tower and spend hours fighting roamers to defend it. Often I would work on draining a keep by cutting off supply camps and setting up sneaky catas. Even if I couldn’t take the keep because they were turtling I could keep it paper.

-Not a fan of EB but the play style was generally the same.

-On the new BL it took me about an hour just to take the 1 tower closest to spawn because they locked +5 behind PvE crafting, they increased G cata supply cost to 50, and the walls automatically fortified. I tried to hit the fire keep but it was already full supply since upgrades don’t cost anything, and it was impossible to keep supply cut off while hitting it solo since the run between camps took so long. When I tried hitting it from the south I lost my first cata to random PvE fire balls that didn’t start shooting until it was fully built. In multiple places my pet would randomly burn to death even though we were on what appeared to be solid ground and I was taking no damage.

-In the Alpine bl the combat was a lot more frequent since players you killed could wp and run back a lot faster. There was also less cheesy mechanics like the sandstorm the stealths entire groups of people. When I was hitting the fire keep I had a second player join me and when a group hit us we wiped them out in a 2v6, after that they wouldn’t fight us anymore, likely because it takes so long to run back. Instead they just prevented us from building anything by building siege or jumping down to kill whatever we tried to build when we made the 3+ minute resupply run. The only fights I could find were near objectives and the objectives offer a gimicky advantage (like stealth or burning) to 1 side.

-It takes so long to take an objective that it’s not worth doing it in a group of less than 8.

-The loot is non existent for roamers.

-Solo roaming is dead for me. I won’t be spending nearly the same amount of time in WvW.

- The Alpine map should be returned to the bl’s. The new map should be put on a weekly rotation with EB. It’s designed for zergs and it’s too big to have 3 copies of it per match. A zerg can bust through the baracades cutting off the center off the map in seconds which would make the map a lot easier to traverse.

-The new bl is like a big PvE dungeon that requires you to spend in game currency to buy siege so you can break through objectives to fight the bosses. You will need a large party to run this dungeon and occasionally you might run into other parties who will hide on walls and throw things at you.

-See above

-One of the SPvP maps.

Jim Hunter.6821:

- The Alpine map should be returned to the bl’s. The new map should be put on a weekly rotation with EB. It’s designed for zergs and it’s too big to have 3 copies of it per match. A zerg can bust through the baracades cutting off the center off the map in seconds which would make the map a lot easier to traverse.

Just wanted to point out, I think this is a great idea. EB is for zergs, and the desert BL is for zergs.

That, or rotate it with EoTM.

Thanks. I expected detailed responses, but not at this rate.

You guys are great and keep it up! I will be continuously linking to this thread to those that need to see it, so don’t be afraid of deadlines or whatever.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

As a scout/roamer, I would orbit Hills or Bay and run upgrades there. I’d retake/defend camps and escort Dolyaks while also repairing and building siege. If we lost the keep I was scouting, I’d usually switch to yak sniping to ensure the enemy couldn’t upgrade. When I got a chance, I’d do as much damage to w/e wall I could get at. Usually, I was alone for this, but sometimes I had support from other scouts/roamers.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

On EBG I tended to scout towers or take enemy camps and mercenaries. Usually I only popped over if things were bad, so I’d also cap my teams corner by solo ramming towers until folks showed up to help.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

After the first bit of running around, I settled into my old borderland role. Though, now, I get my cannons/oil up much faster and without having to sacrifice defense. I also added shrines to my defendables list alongside camps. And, with the new first aid kits, I’m much more effective at escorting yaks so I spend more time doing that too. Meanwhile, since supply isn’t used for upgrades, things like building siege and repairing go much faster—I used to have to run supply from w/e camp we owned.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

I’ve only seen a few big battles, but they weren’t too different. I think the new lords will be more of a factor in a fight, but as for now we’ve been mostly outnumbered 10 to 1.

As for roaming battles, they tend to center around yaks moreso than before, in my experience. That might be because I tend to center more around yaks, though. Love me some yaks.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Before the first upgrade, it seems to be the same amount of time. After that, it takes longer to go through gates if defended and still the same time to go through a wall. Once it becomes fully upgraded, it takes much longer, defended or not. This is largely because the lords scale better now. I really appreciate this change.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

The wexp from repairing seems bugged, but the rest is alright, I think. There’s still very little opportunity to gain wexp from scouting activities, though. I can’t imagine trying to pursue other in-game goals (crafting ascended, elite specs) just through WvW because I do not rank up quickly enough. It is not uncommon to get only 1-1.5 ranks a day even when no-lifing for 6+ hours. That said, I do feel more rewarded on ranking up than I did previously…just need a way to make it happen more often.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I’ve been kicking various work projects around so that I can shamelessly ignore my life in pursuit of getting intimate with the new borderlands for a week. So far, no plans to change that.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Could still use wexp for escorting yaks and such. Perhaps greater exp for flipping sentries. Guards (like in camps) could use a call-for-help thing so that they don’t sit and watch their friends die.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.
  The mini-map, with all of the neatly marked elevators, should be a godsend.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

While there are more cliffs, it is much clearer which ones will kill me now. They tend to be either very safe, or very much obviously deadly.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

At the moment, Verdant Brink so that I can get masteries to aid in getting our guild hall so that we can upgrade things. After that, I’ll be back to the borderlands permanently save for the occasional PvE run for money/crafting supplies.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

On two days, I have spent more than an hour each day standing in place, whisper chatting with friends about gripes and other games, browsing the web on monitor 2, while waiting for any activity at all on the server home map. I did this on an account in Tier 1 NA, and an account in Tier 2 NA.

When finally a Tier 2 guild chose to investigate the map, we spent the hour scouting it for signs of a hidden kitty cave, and found none.

No significant fights were had. The “massive” is absent from MMOG, so far.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

In T1 and T2, guilds that have previously avoided EBG in favor of home BL defense and opponent BL offense have thus far avoided the BL except to investigate. We do not find fights in the BL. We fight doors, get bored, and return to EBG with everyone else.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

The commander that believes that guardians should all wear a complete Nomad armor set, and says so in Teamspeak while linking his gear in team chat, enjoys this new BL. I am not being facetious. It happened in the new BL.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

Since 24 hours before HoT release, on the new BL and the old one, I have not been involved in one traditionally standard battle between two groups both numbering more than 15 people. In all cases where one side numbered more than 15, the other did not. I am certain that it has happened, but I have not been there to see it. Again: T1 and T2, where it was taken for granted.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

This is not yet changed significantly, but may be due to the fact that all structure sieges I have witnessed occurred unopposed. There was no fight.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

This is irrelevant. The RvR mode is broken here. The rewards mean nothing when in the face of that, and the silly loot rewards are not the reason that competitive players choose RvR over dungeons and fractals. The traditional WvW player does not “really enjoy PvE”, and Mike O’Brien has been foolish to believe the malformed data analysis and opinions that lead him to make that statement.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Paired with other choices made for HoT implementation, I have refused to buy HoT and will continue to play WvW at my leisure without further payment. I would have canceled a subscription.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Hire the people from EA Mythic/Bioware who haven’t already joined CSE. Refuse to assign any PvE gameplay designer to the WvW team. Compartmentalize WvW development to make zero compromises within it in regard to any other area of Tyria.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

Good luck.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Goodbye.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

WvW, or nowhere at all. I will not buy through the aggressive paywalls until the price matches my return, and currently I am opposed to most of what I’ve seen as a not-yet upgraded account. That applies to WvW and Guild Hall Arena, not to PvE. I expect to pay for PvE maps and story content in a modern expansion done in the schematic of GW2.

I do not pay for the privilege of the rest. Not on these terms.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Simply put, they cant be improved. Its is a matter of scale. The new bl is just too kitten huge. Anet seriously took it too far. Its too late now, they cant “fix” this. Just look at the map and compare with EB. Stand in one keep, look at the next. Same for alpine. You knew where you where going. On desert, when you actually run around, the scale become insane. You cant even tell where you are going, you cant see crap. Its like running blind.

In terms of model scale, remember those little stairs up a keep wall or ramps up to a lord, where you can fit maybe 2 characters side by side? Well on desert you can see a ramp where 20 people can stand side by side. I’m not going to argue that its not pretty – it is. We wanted more complex designs on our keeps, like EoTM has. But not like this. Not at this scale. Its. Not. Working.

Best case scenario, I can see them adding more waypoints or some way of fast travel. Cause right now we’re literally running in circles in overly large keeps. They could add 20 keeps to the map and probably still wouldnt reach the density of the old alpine border.

The even worse part? Performance has taken a huge dump due the more complex map design. As if low fps when zerging wasnt bad enough.

To agree with Dawdler, as I said in Fort Aspenwood last night, the Desert BL is an appropriate size only if each tiered match contained one copy of that map. That would only work if ANet would improve the client and server tech to make that feasible. We need more people in this map concurrently.

These map dimensions can’t work at current participation levels, with 3 identical copies in the match. It would have worked in 2012 and 2013.

That ANet believes that their data is showing them experiencing growth (or that they say this still, in public, with straight faces) is absurd. Those numbers are over-cooked. :^)

Sviel.7493:

As a scout/roamer, I would orbit Hills or Bay and run upgrades there. I’d retake/defend camps and escort Dolyaks while also repairing and building siege. If we lost the keep I was scouting, I’d usually switch to yak sniping to ensure the enemy couldn’t upgrade. When I got a chance, I’d do as much damage to w/e wall I could get at. Usually, I was alone for this, but sometimes I had support from other scouts/roamers.
.

See, this is what’s missing.
Supply camps and dolyaks were the life blood of keeps and the majority of roaming fights revolved around controlling them.

Now they no longer matter. Structures will be fully upgraded unless they are constantly being flipped (not attacked to drain supply but fully flipped).

Fighting around keeps before did give an advantage to one side because they could use the doors and guards, but it was still a fight. Now the gimmicks completely break that. Try fighting a d/d ele that can Perma stealth and tell me there is no problem with that.

I would say anet need to act fast and scrap all borderland maps including ebg.

Make it 4 way realm battles not 3. Make 4x 1realm vs 1realm maps each 4 maps all different
with exact objectives to complete for a victory that reset after a victory.
every 24 hours realms rotate clockwise round the maps so they have different maps and
different realms to fight. Have a central 4 v 4 map similar to ebg in the middle with no
objective.

somthing like this would of been fresh and fun for the price tag of the expansion, but what we got
is bizarre, its pve or Mario Bros or somthing..

So this is going to try and be helpful – very aware that people are having the “BUT IT’S NOT WHAT I AM USED TO” feeling at present; myself included. However, this is how it feels currently.

My main concern/observation/complaint simply distills down to:

Just because I can see where I want to go on a map, doesn’t mean I can actually get there. The distances are large with some (to those not knowing the maps) no clear indication/route on how to get there. That causes frustration.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

A typical hour on the home borderland consisted of:
1) Flipping or defending camps.
2) Checking upgrade status of keeps, build siege (where applicable and likely to get refreshed), kick off upgrades (where applicable on objectives I didn’t think would get flipped within 10 minutes anyway).
3) Escorting dollies where necessary/needed to help upgrades complete.
4) Actively engaging the enemy.
5) Moaning about being ganked by 2-5 vs 1 player and moaning about spending gold on upgrades when no-one else is willing.

Rarely follow open mic commanders, work solo or in small grps of up to 5 in a party.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

Play style does change as EB tends to be a much busier map. Basically flip/upgrade camps and forts close to spawn if I’m going solo – then harry/harrass enemy camps/guards/individuals. Generally do NOT sit in camps or forts to defend, just roam and engage at will. Otherwise I’d follow commander and collect loot bags/karma. Never in a small party.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

I can’t currently – I spent about 20 minutes and got bored from all the running and not knowing where the heck I’m going, getting lost, trying to navigate way with up/down all over. I’ve not given it a fair try as I just found the size, lack of knowing where I was going, irritating.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

Nature of combat was originally plenty of roaming 1v1, small groups etc. Lately it’s rare you get a 1v1, it’s multiple vs 1.

So far on the new borderlands… well, I didn’t see a single enemy in the 20 odd minutes I spent there (home border admittedly). Then again I didn’t really know where i was going and spent several minutes running around trying to find a way “up” to continue forwards.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Can’t comment on the home borders – not done enough there. But on EB with the new auto upgrades during a quiet period it was impossible to take a keep once it started upgrading. The supplies aren’t used (or appear not to be) during upgrade, so defenders could just drop one ac in a position you can’t hit – and you’re done. That’s quite irritating. It used to be that an upgrading structure could run out of supply and defenders arrive with only what they carry; no such issue any more.

Interesting to see how this goes forward though with night capping… there’s a real chance that on our BL server (with a very sparse population overnight) we’ll log on to find T3 keeps on home borders held by opposition, and insufficient numbers to flip it back until the evening. But that’s a guess, need to see how it fairs in reality.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

Insufficient experience so far to really comment; slightly confused by all the changes.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I’ve started playing some PvE today… something I hadn’t done for months previously. This may change once populations pick up again though and I finally put some effort into the new maps – so don’t think it’s too kitten ing.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Sign posts, less running, not seen any lord signal (i.e. their health) inside forts yet.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

It feels like a virtual exercise class… without an instructor telling you what to do.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Like a virtual exercise class…

ArchonWing.9480:

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

EB… which considering I only went there whenever my favourite commander was having fun, is surprising. However, doesn’t mean I won’t try home border out…. needs some time and non over-reactionary behaviour to actually give it a fair try… and population on the server.

The sheer size means I logged in, got annoyed it took 10 minutes to navigate my way to the bottom forts, then couldn’t for the life of me find my way to the “lord” for another 30s…

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sviel.7493:

As a scout/roamer, I would orbit Hills or Bay and run upgrades there. I’d retake/defend camps and escort Dolyaks while also repairing and building siege. If we lost the keep I was scouting, I’d usually switch to yak sniping to ensure the enemy couldn’t upgrade. When I got a chance, I’d do as much damage to w/e wall I could get at. Usually, I was alone for this, but sometimes I had support from other scouts/roamers.
.

See, this is what’s missing.
Supply camps and dolyaks were the life blood of keeps and the majority of roaming fights revolved around controlling them.

Now they no longer matter. Structures will be fully upgraded unless they are constantly being flipped (not attacked to drain supply but fully flipped).

As I stated later on in that post, yaks have become more important to me. It’s true that objectives will eventually upgrade on their own, but holding them long enough for that to happen is much, much easier with a steady supply of yak love. Combined with the kit that lets me speed boost them (something I couldn’t do well on my necro/thief), I’m spending a lot more time with my now furless friends.

The initial upgrade timer that puts cannons/oils up is like 30 minutes, no? The next is a couple of hours. Nothing sits uncontested that long in T2 unless you’re the blob server that has more people than the other two combined.

Sviel.7493:

I’m spending a lot more time with my now furless friends.

.

OMG! Furless?!!!

What are you doing to those poor dolyaks?!

Sviel.7493:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Sviel.7493:

As a scout/roamer, I would orbit Hills or Bay and run upgrades there. I’d retake/defend camps and escort Dolyaks while also repairing and building siege. If we lost the keep I was scouting, I’d usually switch to yak sniping to ensure the enemy couldn’t upgrade. When I got a chance, I’d do as much damage to w/e wall I could get at. Usually, I was alone for this, but sometimes I had support from other scouts/roamers.
.

See, this is what’s missing.
Supply camps and dolyaks were the life blood of keeps and the majority of roaming fights revolved around controlling them.

Now they no longer matter. Structures will be fully upgraded unless they are constantly being flipped (not attacked to drain supply but fully flipped).

As I stated later on in that post, yaks have become more important to me. It’s true that objectives will eventually upgrade on their own, but holding them long enough for that to happen is much, much easier with a steady supply of yak love. Combined with the kit that lets me speed boost them (something I couldn’t do well on my necro/thief), I’m spending a lot more time with my now furless friends.

The initial upgrade timer that puts cannons/oils up is like 30 minutes, no? The next is a couple of hours. Nothing sits uncontested that long in T2 unless you’re the blob server that has more people than the other two combined.

My experience so far has been if I cut off yaks and camps they would just get the camp on the other side and wait until I leave to cap the one I was holding.

Even the camp by spawn is far enough away that I can’t wp and run to it before it gets flipped.

Jim Hunter.6821:

My experience so far has been if I cut off yaks and camps they would just get the camp on the other side and wait until I leave to cap the one I was holding.

Even the camp by spawn is far enough away that I can’t wp and run to it before it gets flipped.

Aye, again a sign of just plain frustrating design.

I really wish they would take a hint from their own new map and borrow the helicopter teleports. That would “solve” alot of the distances traveled. Just allow us to make rapid response teams that are dropped at a distance from objectives, like a teleporter active for 1 minute or until 5 peeps have gone through.

Haven’t really been enough people online to really get a feel for it. We had an hour or so of larger fights with a few 3-ways. The actual fights were really fun. The sometimes confusing map layout and mechanics made for some great moments of surprise, strategy, laughter and facepalming; quite the refresh from the flat old maps. I really liked that aspect.

The biggest issue that we noticed was the size of it. It was really hard to find enemy groups and even harder to catch up to them, so the feeling of endless running and arriving late could get quite pressing. You really notice the loss of the two keep waypoints.

Overall through the short time we’d had the map, I am quite positive – I found myself feeling quite bored going back to the, by today’s standard, rather bland EB. Once people get their sceptic’s glasses off and start to play and get used to the map I think it can be lots of fun. Right now it’s still too unfamiliar and unpopulated to get a proper opinion.

WvWvW used to be my main game mode. I used to spend many hours every week roaming and PuGmanding on Alpine borderland. I liked it more than Eternal Battlegrounds, because EB is a bit bigger map = takes longer time to travel from one end to another and most importantly EB often has had awful lag, making the game unplayable for me.

Positives first:

Dolyaks are much faster. Sentries are now finally useful. Guild catapult is finally balanced. Ruins of power are gone. I would have wanted to see changes like this with the old maps as well.

The new borderlands look better than I expected. The visuals are great, but it looks like a massive pve dungeon, but not like WvWvW map. The keep lords have interesting mechanics. Maybe to turn the map into a pve map and remove it from WvWvW?

Negatives

The actual game play on the new map is boring as hell. There is now much less things to do as many things run on auto pilot (upgrades, dolyaks don’t need escorting). And there is less human players to fight against.

The new map is also unnecessarily complex, making it confusing both for the newbies and veterans. This is extremely bad news if Arenanet was intending to expand the player base and not shrink it. Now they are alienating the veteran players by removing their favorite map and giving a new map which is too difficult/complex for beginners.

There is simply way too much 3D layered design, verticality and maze-alike things and jumping puzzle alike things. Way too much time is spent traveling from A to B, even with a very mobile character. Even traveling inside a keep or tower takes way too long time and feels like a boring chore.

The keeps and towers don’t feel like real fortifications, instead they feel like they are part of the terrain, which is fine for a pve dungeon, but bad for WvWvW. The portals are almost all very badly designed and you just pop into the other side without knowing what is waiting on the other side.

What made WvWvW great, was the hectic dynamic nature and focus on large scale pvp battles with NPCs playing very little effect. All the time something happening, needing to defend, attack, build siege, order upgrades, drain supplies so that enemy cannot get them. Now the new map everything seem to happen in slow motion and there seems to be more pve (yuck). Capturing a tower takes longer time. Capturing a keep takes longer time. Finding enemies to fight takes a longer time. If you die, you need to spend minutes to get back where you were. This is a truly horrible map for solo roamers.

Defending keeps now becomes impossible as 2 out of 3 keeps has no waypoint and it takes too long time to border hop and call in reinforcements to defend it.

Improvement Ideas

Remove the central oasis event or seriously nerf its power. Now that super Skyplitter thingy destroys the enemy gates and players, making it like 100x times too powerful. Just remove it or maybe leave some pve chest reward thingy in the middle, but don’t make it affect the outcome of the actual fights or defending/attacking keeps.

Give all keeps a waypoint, remove waypoints from the two Southern towers. This is essential for WvWvW tactics and defense.

But even with these fixed, I cannot invent any way to improve the new BL map enough to make it worth playing in the long run.

The only realistic option is to give the players a chance to choose between:
- WvWvW new experience (Desert bl + EB + Obsidian Sanctum+ EotM )
- WvWvW classic (with original Alpine border with the lake instead of ruins + Eternal Battlegrounds + Obsidian Sanctum + no supplies from EotM)

I would of course choose WvWvW classic.

Final note: the WvWvW rewards must be improved to be on the same level as other game modes. Just copy the spvp reward tracks to WvWvW and make them so that about ~2 h normal play completes a track. Now WvWvW is empty, because players can get so much better rewards elsewhere.

>> Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

I was part of the home borderland defense team. There were 10+ of us and party composition rotated as people came and went. We ran 4-5 people and played havoc style mostly, but also upgrading, sieging, and escorting cows, scouting towers and keeps.

>> Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

I avoided EB as I don’t care for zerg fights. I solo roamed there a few times but did not care for it very much.

>> Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

Lots of walking. People log off early. Not much to do. No point in sieging. No need to escort cows or guard camps. Everything runs on auto-pilot. Presumably an enemy zerg comes by and caps stuff because sometimes things flip, but I haven’t seen any enemies.

>> Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

I can’t knock anyone anywhere since the weapons I use have no such functionality. I played this game mode to fight people, not to troll them off cliffs. If you enjoy avoiding fights, I guess this map will be heaven for you.

>> In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

If it happens, I’ll let you know.

>> How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved?

What loot? There are no enemy players and the PvE cron scripts peppered across the map don’t seem to drop anything at all.

>> If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

I don’t know that you can pursue any game goals playing this. How am I supposed to accomplish something when there’s nothing to do and no one to fight?

>> How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I went from spending 6+ hours per evening in WvW to not even wanting to log on. I’d say that’s an impact. My havoc group lasted almost an hour tonight before they left due to boredom. I am still on the BL map but just to chat with guildies that are doing PvE. Not sure what I am supposed to do on this ghost map.

>> In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

The problem is that they can’t be. It would take measures far too drastic to fix this, and ANet will never do it. The distances are too long, there is way too much pointless, useless terrain to wade through to get to enemies that are not there. Too much dying from falling, too many PvE mobs, too much unnecessary distractions from the whole point of WvW: to kill other players in a competitive game mode. All this map does is get in the way of that. It would need a complete overhaul.

>> In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

They won’t learn anything about WvW. It’s like EotM without rewards and with even less enemies.

>> In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

They are boring and confusing and distract in every conceivable way from what I have grown to enjoy: killing enemy players. I have no idea what this PvE junk is about. Killing mobs so that I can claim a “shrine”? Why? What do I care about shrines? Where are the enemies?

>> Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Lion’s Arch. I like the guild office building. Not much to do there but to stare at the NPCs whose prices for upgrades and whatever are wildly outside the wallet of your de facto WvW player, but the building looks cool. I sit there while I chat with guildies about Camelot Unchained and how cool this game used to be.

**
Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?
—

Ive never been fan of the borderlands but i regulary went there if there wasnt enough fights to get in EB. Often i had up to 40-55+ players following me and we went for T3 bays or hills, sometimes even garrison cause we knew that that would bring a quick and big fights to us, even from servers who are more PPT orientated and try to avoid fights no matter the cost.

So to sum it up- fast and large scale fights (thanks to the terrain) and with a goal to downgrade the objective.
**
Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?
—
Usualy in EB i go for the fights, im even known for stalking up to 45+ man groups on maps and pulling any possible fight on them.
The map itself is very short, easy to understand and offers fast, large scale fights, which majority of the WvW players love a lot.

The only style from the BL and EB that changed for me was the fact that i had to be careful.
Due to hills and bay offering a great source of siege placement and its terrain in it, you realy had to make sure to get the outer gate/wall open before the enemy blob came in. If you were gona stall too long, then you were in for one hell of a siege wars provided from the enemies which many of us have never liked.
**
Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.
—
The new borderlands are literaly dead. All of the guild raid leaders ive been in contact with it hate them and i cant realy blame them.

When i went to the new borderlands with my 40 man blob today, everyone were too dismotivated about that call. But sadly we do need PPT (i miss the old PPK though).
I was lucky that the regulars who follow me were good enough to keep the atmosphere in teamspeak very enoyable, so the 38 players in the channel wouldnt die to boredom while we were busy reflipping our objectives back and getting 0 fights out of it.

The annoying part is that we wasted majority of our time simply running from 1 place to another and the map itself is too complex (many people were confused). It wasnt only the running that many didnt like but there was also the slowness taking down of T2/T3 gates, due to upgrades taking place realy realy fast.
The supply camps themselves are also quite far from objectives so going back and forth to speed things up was not gona be worth it.
**
Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.
—
As an commander, i have allways loved using terrain to my advantage- slopes, hills, abnormal walls, corners, tight spaces and even rocks. I know a lot how the enemy responds on certain part of terrain and taking a good advantage of it has won me many fights, especialy when the enemies have had more numbers or have been stronger then the blob following me.

Since i am an EB commander mostly then the terrain advantage has come mostly handy on that map but the knowledge i know from EB terrain is something ive also used in borderlands, due to similaritys.

The thing with the new borderlands is that odds of you managing to test the terrain itself in 45 vs 45 fights is not gona work out mainly cause the map is way toooo massive and chance of you meeting the enemies with big or even small numbers is very unlikely.

Lets say if a scout actualy does say something like : “45 enemy blob at outer fire keep gate” then by the time you get that message and start responding, then more then likely the first place for you to make enemy pvp contact will be in the lord room, due to the defenders having have to run a long long time.

**

In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.
—

I did even check the time of how long it took for me to flip our entire corner back from NE tower, through air keep, with southern towers all the way to fire keep and it cost us up to 30-35 minutes.

Now in the old borderlands a similar cycle like that went 10-15 minutes.

**
How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?
—

If to be fair then nobody has never had any interest in the wxp but only in the loot.
Flipping objectives has never been rewarding and it still isnt. Not to mention many players realy are not interested in flipping objectives.

Ive never been popular as an commander because of flipping towers/keeps cause everyone can do it and it often realy isnt fun for the commander nor for the followers.

My popularity has come straight from the blob fights (40 vs 40, 50 vs 50, even organised 90 vs 90 in the old days in OS) and because of those fights, everyone loves following me cause they know i bring them the fun and messy action that they desire amongst with lots of lootbags.
I for example got up to 325 heavy lootbags not too long ago from 9 hours of tagging. In the PVE world getting that amount of loot in 9 hours is too little but in WvW world that is a lot!

In the new WvW i find myself often spending more and more money on siege then ever before due to automatic upgrades giving too much bonuses. For example yesterday i was forced to downgrade T3 EB keep with a waypoint with T3 towers in our own entire corner and after that a T3 stonemist simply because our server amongst with many dont have a nightcrew.

Today with the 5 hours of tagging i did, i lost up to 20 gold worth of siege due to automatic upgrades when before the new WvW, it was around 10-12 gold regulary.

If i wouldnt get any donations from my followers, i couldnt afford to even command at all.

In my entire 600 days of being a commander, i have never goten any profits from WvW award system when at the end of the day i refill my siege and the food i drop for the people. It has all been donations that has supported me to by something shiny or two once every 2-3 months.

Believe me, people dont come to WvW for loot, thats whats PVE is for. They come to WvW for some crazy nonesense, fastscale big fights action.

**
How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?
—

Ive never been a fan of borderlands but i did visit alpine borderlands and at times ive enjoyed it.
Regarding the new borderlands, i will never visit it unless i need to work myself to fix the PPT and even then its questionable if i wana go there.

It is way too hard to motivate people to go on a map that they dislike when youre commanding.

**

In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.
—

The map itself would be quite fun if it could be 2.5 times smaller cause compared to the alpine borderlands, the new ones are 2.5 times bigger.

Also the hills (terrain) should be lower. At the moment everything seems too high.

If youre a fighting commander then youd prefer having a terrain that isnt too up from the sealevel.
Furthermore making more open fields and wider roads that dont go zig zag will help a lot to the confusion that the new borderlands are giving.

**

In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.
—

Im an old timer but im guessing that a new player will come in, see the borderland being dead and he would want to figure out why.
He will go exploring only to discover himself being lost, confused and thinking how long does he have to run to reach an random objective.

**
In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.
—

Most veterans, including me hate the map for being too big and confusing. Majority of us didnt also like the big presence of PVE, especialy the one in oasis but its survivable. We are even calling the new borderlands Edge of the mists 2.0 (not joking).

**

Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?
—

Eternal battlegrounds without a doubt. Its a small map, easy to understand and offers the action packed large scale fast fights that WvW was and still should be meant for.

On a side note- the CEO who said “If you love WvW then you propobly love PVE too”. You wouldnt believe how many people dislike you for saying something like that.

What i wrote is a perfect example of how out of touch anet is with the WvW community.

I have questions for you.

• Where is the ground in the new map? it’s all ladder, glassy catwalk, undereverything passage and lava…lava really?

• Where’s is the desert? LAVA doesn’t mean desert.

• Why did you throw structures randomly? In old map structures were positioned in strategic points, on a Rock(hills) or water surrounding it(bay). They were in high places where could control an area of plain terrain, controlling a structures you had the highere ground. In the new map, instead, there’s no strategic mind, you put some snow here, some LAVA there, some green.

• How can you call this new map? you just took the scheme of old map, 6 camps 4 tower and 3 keeps forming an exagon, and just making it bigger changing some stuff. How can players enjoy playing, creating, experimenting new tactics. Even sieges seems useless.

EOTM 2.0

Map is to big. Should’ve just added the Central thing in Desert Bl into Alpine. Desert Borderlands is way to big but would be great if WvW was a 12 hour event not something that lasts a weeklong. It’s pretty much a baron desert (not sure if anet meant the pun) with so many pve mobs hindering players trying to get away from PvE but wanting to PvP on a larger scale (huh go figure). Anet please get rid of this borderlands or make it not as vertical/not as much pve/smaller so people actually want to roam and get fights.

RIP WvW

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Personally I don’t think you guys at Anet have been listening to what the community has been saying loud and clear on the Forum. The new map is fine, in fact it is quite spectacular.

The issues are:
1- How the maps aren’t organized together in a coherent fashion (3 copies of same map, removal of maps, EotM (why never implemented in WvW?)

2- How the PPT system has to be improved, it’s always the same, after 1-2 days you know who is going to win at the end of the week, and this hasn’t changed since launch. PPK was never implemented.

3- How the server system has to be completely scrapped and redone: What is the point of having 72 copies of the new borderland map running at the same time (in America) if 64 of those instances are completely empty? Why can’t you create new instances of maps only when the other maps are full, like other MMOs are doing?

4- Lack of pertinent rewards for WvW ranks

To put it short, the WvW population has been annihilated over the past 2 years by the lack of content and support, and now what remains of it is given a huge beautiful map, times 3 copies, that the servers can barely fill once. We told you this was gonna happen.

People can’t play the new maps competitively because there is too much ground to cover for the server populations, meanwhile the PPT system is just off the chart accumulating points for maps with just a handful of people roaming, and you are asking us questions that have nothing to do with the biggest issue (Server Population-PPT-Rewards)

2 Solutions:
Solution 1: Remove the map duplicates, bring back old BL as well as EotM in rotation.
Solution 2: Merge all the servers in 3 alliances and create new overflows as needed (for example, with 3 alliances and a total of 9 Desert BL overflow all the sides could be balanced). (9 or 18 versions of this map would be plenty, I can’t even begin to imagine how you thought you would fill 72)

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

Generally I was running alone, or with 2 or 3 other guys. My “job” was to protect hills (right keep). Protecting the dolly and the supply camp, handling the upgrade, building siege and of course scout to ask for help.
When the south camp was attacked I always jump to defend it, the WP in the keep allow me to come back fast. Or if the supply camp near bay was attacked I was able to jump with the WP and help my friend to defend the camp. Even without WP the way to make garri > hills was easy.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

I never play on EB, don’t like this map. Too big, keep and tower are too close. Plenty of lag.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

For the moment I try to learn the map, check for the siege spot on the north of the map. I really don’t care about the south. If I see sword I don’t even try to defend something. Too far away… If I die I have to walk for minutes before I can defend again. But generally the time you join the camp it’s have already change color.
I don’t care about the keep, no WP, auto upgrade, supply not needed… The keep are really to big and complicated… I can understand to have difficulty on the map, but inside the keep ?!? Seriously ? Do you remember bay or hills ? Very easy to walk inside… And I was thinking that bay was already too big… Now it’s just…. No way to try to scout something like this… It’s a shame because we can place a lot of siege for the protection, but really really to big and complicated…. It’s just impossible to scout… We need at least 3 scouts on one keep…. When you have difficulty during the day to have 10 people on the map…

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

I don’t make a lot of fight. Only small fight. I don’t follow the lead. On the new map there is just no fight… No one to fight, or the time you can go somewhere it’s too late… And if you die you have to walk again and again for hours… I don’t want to play the game only to run accross the map… Give us some cardio skill, if you run for 3hours you gain perma swiftness…
The only small fight that I have was defending keep, because it’s take a long time to break the door. This allow to place siege or to fight for the defense. But I think that open field fight will no more exist. Except maybe on the central island.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Much longer. But for me that is a good thing. The bad thing is the new auto upgrade / no supply cost… It’s good we can defend more longer, that I love it. But we have to earn the T3… With running dolly, manually starting upgrade, think before starting upgrade if you have enough supply, etc.
I want the old upgrade system, just with no gold cost… And with the old max storage. 1100 supply for a keep is just not enough… Seriously, do you see the supply needed just to fix 1 fortified gate ?!? And you place 1100 supply in the keep….
Oh and please, place the WP only on tier 3 !! Non sense to have the wp available immediatly… And give back WP on the side keep… At least this will give us a reason to hold those keep.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

I don’t care about loot… I play WvW to defend the home borderland… To play with friend, to manage upgrading our keep.
As I only play guard, and as I don’t care playing with a bow, I really don’t care about the new elite… But the need for so much HP is really stupid… And the only way to get this is in PVE…. In WvW this will take too much time…

About the cost of what I do in WvW. I’m scout (at least I was, don’t think I will continu to play in WvW if there is no change). Before I need gold to start upgrade and to siege. But the keep was not so big, and we have a good community that help our scout.
Now the upgrade are free ok, but the keep are so big that we need plenty of siege if we want to defend something… With this, and the no WP I will only defend Rampart and maybe the north tower. I really don’t care about the 2 side keep now.. If we loose it we will just take it back later..

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I will probably stop playing GW2 at all if there is no change in the game mechanic… I can try to learn the new map, but the game core have big issue at the moment. There is just nothing to do for me as scout… Taking shrine ? wtf really ? Supply camp ? Supply is not needed for the upgrade > don’t care supply camp. Running doly ? Supply is not needed for the upgrade… Placing siege on side keep (bay/hills) ? No interest… Keep are too big, this will cost too much gold… And don’t except to see EB zerg come to defend those useless keep without WP…
The last thing I can do is to scout north (2 tower and 1 keep). But as we don’t have ennemy the keep don’t really need scout… And if we should loose one of this structure, we will just take it back later… T0 and T3 have the same PPT. And there is no interest to see those thing upgraded. Before on the old map you can fire with treb from both north tower to garri. Then you have to defend those tower. Garri need to be upgraded to have the WP, then you will defend it… But now ? What the difference between T0 and T3 ? None… Really none… And as all is free and auto upgrade all people just don’t care about structures…

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

- Bring back the old upgrade way with the old max supply storage. Maybe just with free gold upgrade.
– Bring back the old WP, remove the new one, and make the WP only available at T3.
– Remove the central event, or maybe just give a bonus chest, but remove this stupid canon.

I hope that the dev team will listen to the community. But I really don’t think that something will change. They never listen and they don’t care about WvW…

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

Empty ? Nothing to do except pvd and pve ? No real fight because you can’t find ennemy or just inside the keep.. New player will just move to eotm, maybe EB.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Veteran will just move to EB… Or stop WvW.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Home borderland for the moment, I give time to see if we will see some change. And later on another game.

ArchonWing.9480:

Hello WvW Community.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

- Restore alpine borderland maps (best option)
- Reduce size of new maps
- Make new maps less complex and more open
- Restore +5
- New maps lord fight mechanics belong to PvE. I’m not here to play PvE. Old lords were better. Bring them back.
- Put resource nodes back to where they were (outside of objectives)
- Remove “tactics” which spawn more PvE junk like airships.
- Remove all new PvE crap from maps.
- Objectives seem to upgrade too fast.
- On new map distances from camps to objectives too long compared to increased defenses.
- Restore guard stacks.

ArchonWing.9480:

Hello WvW Community.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

- EB (if playing the game at all)

Also reason why I didn’t buy the expansion early was following:
I wanted to wait and see how it will improve my daily WvW experience before buying it. Now I’ve seen the “improvements” and I am happy that I didn’t buy it. You don’t have to be rocket scientist to tell “will I buy it anytime soon?”. Obviously answer is “definitely not!”.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

Mostly running with the zerg killing the backline or finishing people low on health. The rest of the time I ran around alone or with 2/3 others to scout, flip camps and have some small group duels.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

Pretty much the same, except for less small group roaming and more assisting the zerg.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

Traveling. A lot of traveling. Flipping a camp alone was a little more tricky, especially if it’s upgraded. I think I pretty much ragequited after 30 minutes on the new borderlands, I think mostly due to the lack of people because of the travel time.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

As a mostly solo / small group roamer thief player, I don’t have access to knock people off cliffs or into lava pits. My playstyle hasn’t really changed much in the 30 minutes I’ve played.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

We took the enemy fire keep, used 2 omega golems and 1 alpha golem. It took us about 4 minutes to break a fortified gate (we had no resistance, though). Later on, at the garrison (or what used to be garrison), our group of 9 had a hard time against a couple of defenders. We killed them when they came through the portal, but the amount of default siege and the strength of the gate were fatal for our group.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

I don’t know if it was intentional or a bug, but I got 100 wxp for taking stonemist (without buff, it ran out). Apart from that, I think it could have a slight boost, but that could be just because I badly want to get all hero points in the jungle.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Right now, I don’t really like the borderlands, so I’ll spend my WvW time in EB mostly.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

More waypoints or other ways to travel around. A way to quicker see where a keep (or any objective really) is being attacked from WHILE you’re inside. I heard someone spending 5 minutes to find out where the enemies were attacking from.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

Can’t comment on that, I’m not exactly new to wvw.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Skip the gym, defend the new borderland for an hour a day.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Since most of the people I play with in WvW and a few PUG commanders I like to follow are in the jungle, you’ll most likely find me in there. In the evening I can be found on EB, unless the zerg decides to move to a borderland.

An hour in past was an hour spent defending/repairing/recapping camps etc.

An hour now is a tedious bore everything’s to far away to defend etc and the map is so poorly designed it doesn’t flow is just a jumbled maze.

In old maps could do anything scout/defend/run with zerg, recap camps/find people on other team

takes far longer to cap anything and silly amounts of defensive mobs spawn, its like they tried to make map more rewarding to zergs. the stupid oasis weapon makes it even easier for the strongest server to win easily.

the loot is even worse than before, cant buy wvw levels with my useless laurels now.. ironic they add the notary npcs so wvw players can buy hero points through wvw levels, but make it far more difficult to get wvw levels (and also made it so much harder to get the badges since they nerfed eotm). not going to waste my time battling with all the grinding walls to unlock new elites.

Oh and the new siege looks hideous, looks like a primary school kid made it out of playdo.

•How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW
-wont log in game. (or buy heap of trash (hot))

•In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.
- deleting them and putting proper maps back instead of the oversized overly pretty but utterly useless map. parts of it like the keeps would be better as a maze than an actual objective.

•In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.
- enter… look around, cant find any allies any enemies or any clue what to do… leave and go back to pve.

•In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.
- enter look around, cant find any allies, any enemies, objectives to hard to take unless you can find allies, return to EB/quit game.

•Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?
-offline

used to be able to provide guild buffs as a small guild to help my team ? nope cant do that any more, guild upgrades locked behind paywalls/grind walls etc etc.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

I have been leadin guild raid, sized 15-20. We were trying to get challenging fights, also attacking objectives in order to get these.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

I really rarely ventured into EB.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

I mostly spent my time running, trying to find enemies in the new map. When I actually found these, it was in some kind of a choke point instead of open field.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

The new map promotes way more gimmicks, environmental effects and punishes smaller groups in favor of blobs.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

It takes longer to take it for a 15-20 man group, especially if there are defenders. The blobs are as fast as they used to be.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

With the current state of WvW, I only intend to get there for guild raids, and I had much less fun than on the Alpine borderland.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I will have no long sessions in the new map.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

• flatten the map
• remove all the gimmicky effects
• remove PvE mobs

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

I would say, it is overwhelming and it might kill the new player in a way he would not understand. It would definitely push a new player into safety of a blob.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

The general feel in my guild was that the new map is just bad. The artwork is nice but it’s just not a map suitable for fighting players. There was simply too much effort to find enemies and the map does not provide incentive for a blob to split.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

I’m afraid I’m going to fulfill certain person’s dream and you will most likely find me in a PvE map. During my guild’s raid time it will most likely be the new BL as we want to give it another chance and EB does not cut it for us.

its horrible, I just log in collect my daily reward and log off, wvw was already treated as a 2nd class citizen compared to pve/pvp but now its just garbage..

the map is poorly designed with lots of useless fluff that gets in the way, confusing directions, split levels that add nothing except more tediousness in getting where you need to go. its not good spending 7 months on a map (which is what I heard in a livestream) if your actually clueless about wvw as you end up with something pretty and gimmicky that doesn’t make anyone happy.

Daily doers hate it because achievements don’t even all work
Roamers hate it because they cant find anyone/cant flip camps
Small groups hate it because its so slow taking towers
Zergs would hate it because of the choke points … if there was anyway defenders could get to the choke points without a 15 minute run. (this is a guess as ive yet to see enough people to call a zerg in the map at any one time since everyone’s avoiding it like a plague).

Not buying expansion until WVW gets the love it needs from anet staff who know something about it or until its like 80% off since its massively overpriced – all you buying is the chance to grind at more stuff. (aka never).

oh well fallout 4 soon

‘In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.’

- Either bring back the old upgrade system with slight modification (i.e. player activated at each stage at no cost) or make Auto-upgrade only applicable to Home keep and 2 side towers…. rest of map should not auto-upgrade when enemy controlled.
- Being able to WP into structures you dont own is silly.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

Usually solo roaming, guarding keeps, escorting dolly’s, recapture camps

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

EB has been always about the fights, so usually run with the group.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

Soloing camps, is almost made impossible due to the auto upgrades. And kinda feel lost on that map.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

None.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Takes longer

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

Loot always been bad in WvW. Getting wxp is new borderlands takes to long. Not planning to unlock, i have to many characters to pursue all these unlocks and by removing the normal xp from wvw, it even gonna takes longer.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Probably will be spending more time on EB.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Currently they are to difficult to navigate trough, some area’s are stunning like the upper left and upper right corner of your own borderlands. I expected a little bit more flat terrain like that, with castles etc. Ditch the vertical stuff in the map and the narrow navigation.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

I wouldn’t even advice it to go there.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

No idea

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

EB

We have gone from 4 wvw maps to 1 wvw map

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Expect-a-large-wvw-player-base-drop-off/first#post5653677

BIG +1 for this guy

Good-
Sentry changes
Marking enemy’s who are in the keep when it flips (why does stealth remove this?)

Neutral-
Auto waypoints at certain points

Bad-
Way too big
Too vertical, it’s like the designer thought we would have gliders in wvw.
Walls too large. I can’t even auto attack or siege disable when standing on top of a wall being hit with catas
Towers and keeps too large. Hard to scout. After Breaking thru inner, it should be obvious where to go…
PVE mini event at oasis
Gimmicky stuff like lava and wind nock outs
Removal of +5
Auto upgrades make the desire to hold towers and keeps less, as no investment was involved and w/o waypoints at t3, no value in holding vs flipping back

Suggestion- people do wvw to fight other players in a open world setting. Objectives simply provided a place for those fights to occur. Ensuring objectives are easily traveled to, captureable, and valuable are key to the future of wvw. Please keep this in mind when making changes.

I think your “questions” are in the wrong way, and thus the answer will be “wrong” as well. What the new and the old maps lack, was the “flows”. The flows of the battle, the flows of engagement, the flows that make things more interesting.

The layout of the maps are the same as before. What changed? Just the designs of towers and keeps and the terrain. A lot more cannyons and ways to die by falling than dying to an enemy. Instead of having small keeps, that are easily bypassed by a blob when not heavily defended, we have too large keeps that small groups will never achieve to get. So, R.I.P. night forces of small capacity servers. Not to mention the self-upgrade thing.

Again, the starting points are the same. The defending server starts north, the other two in one of the corners south. Why is that? I understand that it is maybe too hard for your resources to design 3 totally different BLs. But why can’t you design sth that makes engagements far more frequent and more important? Meaning, that people start somewhere in the central area of the map(don’t think of it just as one big circle) and then scatter across it. So, there are tactics to actually cut off the enemy before they reach a specific objective, or ignore them, or denying them access to a part of the map. Right now, all parts are accessible while ignoring everything in your way. Maybe the routes are more labyrinth-like now, but still the same pattern.

Moreover, the whole playstyle has become a lot more passive with all the protective npcs and the alerts of every change almost on map. Beats the puprose of players actively contributing to the game in the ways mentioned. Probably you got the feedback that sth like this is needed, but in the long run it will make things more boring and stale. Instead, we should have gotten objectives that actively require to defend them with mechanisms that are enabled by players according to the situations. I mean, upgrades should not cost anything, but it should take someone to activate them at least! Not structures to self-upgrade themselves without anyone doing anything.

I enjoyed all aspects of WvW so far. Defending, roaming, zerging, solo roaming, dueling etc cause it took different skills to do any of them. Now, i feel i can do far less and contribute far less than before.

Sorry for not abiding by your constructive feedback format, but i find flaws in it.

ArchonWing.9480:

Hello WvW Community.

As there seems to be quite a few concerns and comments on the new maps we’ve just gotten, I’d like to gather up some feedback in a single place and ask a few questions.

Please format your post to answer these statements. You don’t have to answer all of them. Please stay on topic and do not make negative comments about other posts even if you know they’re totally wrong. Do not make passive aggressive comments about anyone. Please do not include salt in your post.

This thread shall be ongoing, so if you have had a change of heart for any reason, you may continue posting, but obviously don’t spam it every day.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

I typically ran solo or small group havocing /roaming unless attacking an enemy keep with my guild on Yak’s Bend (Footsteps of War). Havocing consists of killing yaks to prevent enemy upgrading structures, taking camps to prevent upgrading of enemy structures, making trebuchets to drain enemy supply, popping swords on enemy keeps, making a distraction while another group attacks the other side of a keep, anything to make enemy structures weaker & easier to cap.

I also ran yellow tag (guard tag on our server) along with some other “scouts” , sieging up keeps with arrow carts (AC) and trebs (trebuchets), tagging said siege, escorting yaks , retaking camps. Yak’s Bend is notorious for holding enemy keeps on lower tiers (including enemy garrison) for 48+ hours and sieging it up.

Sometimes we had a havoc group that was able to take a keep via cata wall or rams on gates. As a mesmer most of the time, portaling into enemy keeps and hiding (my armor / weapon is colored as close to the environment as possible , smallest sylvari mesmer) was essential.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

EBG was more focused on keeping our third of the map. Guarding was essential but taking camps in enemy third of the map typically was not as common because they’d take it back quicker.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

Most of the time is spent capping shrines / not fully upgraded camps, and jumping/running around. If a keep is capped typically it is the fire one. Without the air shrines it is very slow to navigate to the air keeps. When attacking a fortified keep it is most likely you need 35+ unless you hit a wall on an undefended keep.

Attacking a keep with the air shrines upgrade is a P.I.T.A. , you get knocked off a lot. The fire keep is a pushover is comparison , the earth keeps’ cripple and barriers are marginally effective. The shifting sands stealth effect doesn’t mean as much because the group owning garrison typically is the one that is owning the map.

The red orange dots on the map are a minor inconvenience if you have a zerg , but diminish any groups without stealth to avoid getting spotted by the sentries. This essentially kills all non-stealth roamers’ undetected movement through the Yak routes.

Also the enemy borderlands are bugged , you can waypoint into the spawn tower. Some of my guild stated this was by design, but an Arenanet employee informed us on this forum that it is not! The fact that a bug can be seen as “normal” is an issue.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

The new borderlands are heavily reliant on jumping (not a strong suit of mine even though my main is mesmer ). With the stability changes and map verticality, the air shrines are really strong.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Fortified gates are ridiculous, but the normal walls and reinforced walls/gates are within reason. However if you have a small group the huge distance becomes an issue if you want to build more than one piece of siege. Fully upgraded camps take a bit more effort to take due to lack of “guard stacks”. Towers are relatively easy to take, but upgrade faster.

Defending an upgraded keep is easier but getting to the keep as a defending team is harder due to lack of waypoints.

The barricades are a major annoyance if you run a non-power build ; auto attacks only do about 40-60 damage to these.

Also even on EBG, the keep lord has been upgraded : I was hit for 10K by meteor shower according to the combat log. The scaling is sometimes off.

Do note, the core laser event is ridiculous, it basically vaporizes the enemy gate in less than 10 seconds.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

It seems the loot has slightly improved but WxP comes slower. I feel as though defending should give more rewards. Keep in mind I am on a Tier 1 server, so it doesn’t reflect other tiers! The Desert Borderlands were pretty empty until last night’s reset and it was not queued (very rare for reset on T1). The only other in-game goal you can achieve is hero points via the proof of heroics and minimal gold compared to PvE.

I feel as though WvW players should be given more slack on earning the Elite specializations , perhaps 15-20 WvW rank’s worth compared to 40 hero challenges. Right now I get about 2-4 proof of heroics per WvW chest.

I don’t believe anyone in WvW has attained the 400 250 hero pts via WvW yet, but someone in my guild replaying since HoT launch has already gotten their full 400 250 hero points from PvEing in HoT (one day’s work) on two characters. Because the proof of heroics are all new and generally harder to earn than Tyrian hero points (especially due to EoTM changes), I feel they should be given much more weight than the hero points from Tyria.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Defending is harder due to the amount of hiding spots and the core laser event, capping upgraded camps is harder, capping fortified keeps is harder. Many things are on autopilot.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Fortified keeps’ gates should not be so ridiculous with auto turrets. Attacking a wall with catas is better for small groups, but when you have 30+ people you can just beat on the gate (no different than old WvW). Last night we capped JQ garrison, but with (ranged) omega golems and 30+.

Also the Desert BL maps have a major lag issue.

Capping a fully upgraded keep should grant proof of heroics I think , towers ought to also.

Also they need to fix various bugs such as being unable to deploy siege on the air keep main gate.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

It’s Silverwastes with a lot of jumping and verticality , a bit more fighting against other players, and siege you put yourself.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

It’s EoTM on steroids.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

Eternal Battle Grounds, Desert Borderlands if EBG empty, or EotM (until I get 400 hero pts).

Key points:

• Fix the enemy Desert BL waypoint bugs
• Fix Desert BL performance issues
• Falling damage is a common thing on the Desert BL
• Keep an eye on fortified gates’ rate of flipped keeps in T1/T2
• Ramp up WvW rankup chest rewards for normal WvW
  ——————————————————————-

Sincerely,

A Yaks Bend Mesmer (FoW) + Yaks Bend Elementalist since launch , with Yellow “Guard” Tag

… Also Necro that only well bombs & roams in small groups.

EDIT: Nov 1 2015 to add the air keep bug ; update for 250 hero points

Update – tried playing more in home borders and I don’t wish to criticise as the effort that’s gone in is probably substantial.

But it just feels like EOTM 2.0 and I hate it. I’m now playing in EB, which I didn’t really like doing before – but I never play in EOTM.

I need to grind in PvE to get to things that may make my game more balanced against opposition… but willpower has gone, caring about map objectives has gone; I simply don’t give a flying monkeys ankitten ot going to be logging into WvW for a while.

edit wow, the swear filter things three words which put together have a 4 letter non swear word in it to require filtering to kitten. It about sums up my current thoughts of Anet – flawed.

Infusion.7149:

• Fix Desert BL performance issues

Wont happen unless they redesign the engine (and hopefully make it better, not worse). They would never do that for WvW – we already know they wont do it for PvE either. Its simply too much work.

Sigh… I really hope they will get working on Alpine 2.0 – same design as before, just updated visuals by a notch with better layed out keeps instead of the unnaturally blocky ones (the one thing EoTM did really good).

Oasis Event dosent belong, fix the HUGE LAG when it starts or remove it instantly. This should have bin tested. Its NOT even lag due to numbers, the event actually lags entire Map even if 5-10ppl are there.

Typical hour in the past?

Most often running off peak hours. Running with different guilds at different times. Generally in team speak. Covering all maps, EB and BL’s. Balancing capping and “Points Per Tick” with finding good fights. Generally I run in groups of 10 to 40, while helping to take care of doly’s, siege refreshment, upgrades etc… +5-ing camps.

Compared to an hour in the new BL?

Not much constructive here.
We fumble around and get angry and bored, accomplishing very little in slow motion, while waiting for the EB queue to pop, because that is the only place the game is being played now. We discuss how the people that designed this have obviously never played WvW for more than 10 minutes, and how ludicrous the map is.

Paradigm and build changes?

None. Not interested in playing WvW in this PvE map at all. Although it would have made a GREAT map for new HOT PvE content somewhere in Tyria. It feels as wrong as “Rifting” was in Aion. PvE with some unsolicited random ganking.

How long does it take to cap compared to the old…

We all know the answer to that one. Forevvverrrr. Watch some TV, play guitar, find things to do while you wait for gates to go down, and lords to go down. If you can find your way there in the first place.

Affect long sessions in WvW?

(At rank 2k+) I honestly was waiting for something fresh, and I’m honestly contemplating whether I want to play it at all anymore. I will try to force myself to learn and like the new BL content, but, most likely, It will all be spent in EB now.

Loot and WXP in the new BL?

Once you pass WvW rank 1385 and have all WvW rank masteries, it’s moot. Other loot changes, I don’t feel I’ve gathered much of anything in the new BL. I do feel the new harvesting synthesizers are ridiculous! Everyone gets rooted in the towers, camps, keeps, to harvest large quantities of mats that you never, ever, got in quantities like that anywhere, and still shouldn’t. It’s a game stopper….. Ugggggg, now we wait, again, for everyone to harvest, and ignore what we are supposed to be doing. Just give em in drops for capping, don’t stop game progress. Or, put the harvesting nodes back into the map.

I do enjoy some PvE, so Elite Specialization loot ratio matters less to me in WvW than to others.

How to improve the new maps?

Here’s what I would like to see tried for at least a week or two. I think you should first return the old Boarder Lands to the game. And, at the same time, replace/swap out EB map with a copy of the EOTM map, adding a castle in the middle (Stone Mist), and letting us fight on that map for real, for a solid week or two. I think that map would be exciting in a real WvW match up. And, they could be tweaked if need be.

Give the new BL map to a PvE map as a story line map. Give us the old maps, while you figure this one out.

Describe to a new WvW player?

I’ll never know, I wouldn’t do that to them.

Describe this map to a vet, that is new to the map?

We ourselves are all vets that are new to the new map. Our descriptions of the new BL’s to ourselves here aren’t flattering here. We seem to be describing it as: Don’t go there.

Current maps you can find me now?

In queue for EBG.

Also, HoT maps, Halloween events Labyrinth, any but the new BL’s.

I don’t know how people think we could use just one of these new BL maps in WvW? Because, they aren’t divided up for 3 competing servers, they are designed otherwise, for only one owner. Or, would it be just a free for all, whoever gets it owns it?

I would really like to see you swap out the EOTM map (with a castle added) with EBG for a couple weeks as stated above. The regular EOTM would remain as is. But we would have a duplicate map in EB with some slight tweaks (Center castle added), and fight over it, for real, for a whole week instead of K-training it for 4 hours. That map could actually provide good battles.

Auto upgrades should be scrapped too. Even if personal cost was removed. Make it free, but make it an important part of the game again.

Thank you for actually asking.

Again, I really like the map, I think it’s a huge improvement over the previous borderland. After 3-5 hours in it the confusion is gone about the paths you can take.

The issue is the same as we’ve always had, population/map coverage. Servers need to be merged.

ArchonWing.9480:

Hello WvW Community.

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do

—Depended on relative time of day. If I was on late night then I would be in home bl to help others control camps and supplies flowing to keeps that were in the process of upgrading. Also, flipping back anything that was taken. If I was on during my daylight hours then I was usually with my guild raid, or if it was an off day I’d be scouting keeps.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

—Typical hour in EBG would be spent supporting whomever was tagged up.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

— I actually got to spend an hour with my guild’s raid in the new bl today. Most of it was spent feeling lost and slow. However, some of us did manage to wp into our garri (?) and defend it when it was attacked.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

—Old bl was fun because it didn’t take long to find a fight. Can’t really comment on the way the new bl has impacted me yet; it’s still too new. I can say that so much running around is really boring. *If I want to fear troll people to their deaths I’ll go to EotM; I do NOT want it in a real WvW map. Knocking people off etc. is NOT an important role. It is merely cruel kittening/trolling (like the CC/IceBow used to be) which belongs in EotM, not a real WvW map.*

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

—Didn’t really notice any difference during guild raid today. 1) I was only able to participate in guild raid for an hour. 2) There was zero defense of the keep we captured.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

—The loot? I didn’t notice a difference? Again, I was only in WvW with my guild for an hour today. Sustain what I’m doing? Ehh, I’m trying to learn how to get around the map, so, NO, the BL map and mini map aren’t helping me sustain that? They’re way too vague; I can’t tell at a glance how to get anywhere by looking at the map or minimap. Unlocking an elite specialization? First impression is those plans have been hurt by this new BL, but it’s probably still too early to be certain. Other in-game goals? I don’t really understand that question. I play WvW to fight other players… either with my guild raid, with a small group, or solo. Why would I want to accomplish “other in-game” goals by playing WvW? I play WvW to play WvW. You lost me there.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

—Can’t answer that one yet. I’ll be pulling a marathon this Thursday/Friday though just to find out.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

—Give permanent, base, stackable 25% speed buff to everyone while they’re on home BL. (i.e. acquire buff from NPC at spawn; lose it when you leave the map or upon downed state/killed)
—Remove fall damage. Replace with a stun dependent upon fall distance.
—Remove that thing from the center of the map. Replace it with a large, flat, open field.
—Make map/minimap show/trace routes when you click on an objective..
—Keep the 3 BL maps, but _rotate/sync/apply PPT from_ only one BL (current match last place) for every 3 hours. Have that map be to the advantage of the current match last place server (think GW1 Factions Alliance Battle rotation?)

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

—This will be difficult. Level 80 only please. At first you will die a lot. Dying doesn’t matter. Fight to the death. Do not run away. Get on TeamSpeak (etc.) and follow your commander’s orders if you’re going to follow the commander. If you see enemies don’t be afraid to speak up and say so; please if possible say which server, how many, and where/which direction you saw the enemies.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

—You must resist the kitten. There’s still hope. This is just the “new” square one. At first this will be difficult. Some of the siege looks different. You will spend a lot more time running from point A to point B. There are shrines out there to cap that do something new. There are levers somewhere that do something. Wait, I AM a veteran WvW player, but I don’t know how this BL works.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

—Home BL wandering around sad and lost yet not without hope.

10.27.15 Edit: OK, I came back to add more info to my post, but while I was reading the other posts in this thread I had a eureka moment. We’ve been calling it the Desert Borderlands… desert as in a big, hot, dry, sandy wasteland… which in some ways could be used to describe the current state of the new BL maps; however, I believe we’ve all been getting it wrong …maybe… it’s pronounced like this quote from a dictionary:

(I appologize for the kitten, but this just sounds as accurate as Desert)

de·sert1
d??z?rt/
verb
abandon (a person, cause, or organization) in a way considered disloyal or treacherous.
“he deserted his wife and daughter and went back to England”
synonyms: abandon, leave, turn one’s back on; More
(of a number of people) leave (a place), causing it to appear empty.
“good weather came after the summer hordes had deserted the beaches”
synonyms: empty, uninhabited, unoccupied, unpeopled, abandoned, evacuated, vacant; More
(of a quality or ability) fail (someone), especially at a crucial moment when most needed.
“her luck deserted her”

Thanks for all the responses!

It does seem like overall size and sheer complexity does get a feeling of it just being that for the sake of it especially when if it’s not during peak hours. This is why I deliberately phrased the last questions as such. And honestly,my answer to either a new player or a veteran player is “I don’t know. Just walk to the nearest marker!” because I feel such maps are very difficult to pick up and that just creates a huge barrier to entry.

From my own observations, it seems to run a parallel to the new pve maps which have a similar obsession of obtuse terrain just for the sake of obtuse terrain and a rather unhelpful minimap.

I have yet to pass judgement on it, because honestly I usually hate everything off the bat but I am definitely trying to think of the nature of combat changing to something that’s more fun, or just getting fights at all that seems to be a issue. In the old borderlands, I had generally little problem encountering enemies, but in the new maps, encountering allies is a hard thing already.

Personally, I think the contrast in EB vs Bl was that EB was naturally more blobtrain based and BL was somewhat more skirmish based but also subject to escalation as reinforcements came along when you’re defending a keep. So EB tended to be more fast paced, while BL was worrying about tower and keep status. And now all of this is gone. I have no qualm with removing upgrade costs, but the fact that one cannot “starve” a tower by killing all the dolyaks seems to be a trouble. You can only slow it down, but that just seems to be a Sisyphean task and overall I feel the ability of groups less than 10 tend to be relegated to taking camps and some very boring tower sieges. By the same token, EB tends to be less affected by these changes, and largely feels the same except those nodes which are amusing and slow down the karma train, but I can’t really object to that either.

I appreciate upgraded towers being harder to take. I really do. But the thing is when upgrades come so easily and on autopillot, it kind of devalues the whole thing, doesn’kitten Taking down a upgraded structure is always a big undertaking, but when all of them are, it’s kind of annoying and makes it lose value. It doesn’t really mean these concepts are bad, but clearly it’s overtuned and really lacked testing.

As for where you will see me. I’ll be either in EB or somewhere in the middle of Verdant Blink which I tried for about 30 minutes and failed to get a single hero point. I then felt rather ill, but that’s a rant for another day. (The map itself is nice, but the circumstances of which I’m coming in are not. kitten gating. I like playing the content and exploring; what I don’t like is being the rat running through a maze for that piece of cheese that keeps getting moving around. )

When I originally posted here (as Jim Hunter) it was from a roamers perspective. I decided to give it another try last night doing a guild run during na prime. We hit both enemy bl’s and took every single keep without running into any resistance.

I don’t care what time of day it is or what event is going on, I have never before taken multiple fully fortified keeps without at least a few people trying to slow us down.

We were spotted several times and the players just wp’ed out. They didn’t throw a disabler, didn’t man siege, because why bother? No effort went into upgrading them, they weren’t going to have to wait for hours and babysit yaks to get their wp’s back. They will actually get more of a reward by letting us take everything so they can flip it back.

I logged off after about an hour and a half without getting a single fight. RIP WvW.

It’s good to see someone from anet here.
On my opinion, after playing the map for some hours now, I think we can learn to play on this map. This will take time but we can learn. And there is a lot of shortcut to take to make the path shorter.
I really don’t like the east side with the Palace keep, but Rampart is nice, and the desert is great for open field. But the 2 side keep are too big really.

Just a small word about T3. I love the new reinforced gate, but it’s really to easy to get T3 now… I’m scout, I only play for defence, but I think that this should be difficult to be able to have T3. If it’s too easy then there is no “pride” to have it. And for the attackers it’s really annoying to fight those T3.
T3 should be difficult, both for defender and for attacker. When you are able to build a T3 it should be a success for the owner, not some automatic stuff…

And we really need some tactical advantage to control structures…. Barricade are useless against zerg and annoying for roamers.. And keep don’t have WP. Before controlling north tower give the advantage to shoot on garri. Same for the south west tower to shoot on bay. Now the tower are useless…. It’s change nothing if you control them or not…. Even the doly can gro through the barricade ! At least if the barricade can block the north dolly this will help to starve Rampart… And this give a reason to defend those tower.

I hope we will see some change, like removing the mega canon

Sich.7103:

It’s good to see someone from anet here.
On my opinion, after playing the map for some hours now, I think we can learn to play on this map. This will take time but we can learn. And there is a lot of shortcut to take to make the path shorter.

There is no one from Anet here.

What you describe isnt the main problem. We can always learn new maps, paths, etc. Its really quite simple – the problem is density (ironically, considering how much stuff they packed into the map). The amount of players per square meters is not enough to maintain a fun WvW enviroment. This apply to both roamers and zergers. The players are way too spread out, with far too long distances between. And that’s just on one layer of the map. It got several layers, increasing the problem exponentially.

The only thing that goes through my mind when running around this beautifull work of art is what where they thinking?!. Its not fun to run around on and its not even fun to die on because its bloody work to get back. You quickly loose interest to go out of spawn.

I am reminded of ESO and how awfull their AvA was because it was simply too huge (in their case, far worse than the new border though). It was boring. Plain and simple boring. GW2 just did everything right in comparison, the perfect size and easy to find quick action packed fights.

In WvW it is rather easy to measure distances with certain siege equipment;

If treb doesn’t reach from one objective to nearest adjacent objective, they are usually too far apart.

…at least this is how I see it.

Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

Mostly went with the Guild in Size of 5-25 People and tried to get keeps or fights

Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps? Her it was mostly running from keep to keep, defending and fighting. And mostly it would end up in a SM Fight Night.

Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands?

Getting used to the new Maps, but really the same trying to get keeps, what takes some time because there are so big. And fighting other Groups if they dont run. The only Problem is that Arow Carts and that kind of stuff can go to far.

Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.?

The biggest change i see that defending isn’t a big thing anymore just because of running there and finding the group in the big keeps. Attacking is a Problem sometimes just because where Arow Carts are being placed and how far they can get you. Mostly its all more tactical fighting and the big zergs should learn to split up in small groups so more can be archived.

In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

The Boss Fights are really nice now, just because they are a challenge but a Problem with that is fighting a Boss and Zerg will be hard. In the other hand you have the Boss fight thats hard but than taking the keep goes fast. So basic its balanced good enough.

How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

We need more Hero Points you just dont get enough. I played about 6 hours WvW and got 10 that i can exchange for Hero Points thats not enough to use the new Specialization.

How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW? I stooped playing for a long time, and came back to a game that didnt changed so i got bored fast again. the new maps changed that its fun to play again.

In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Take the middle part out to make the map smaller, or just get a small thing in the middle. Nothing PVE for the middle part. The other thing is getting the player number higher, so more players can join on the big maps. And than combine a smaller server with a middle server as alliance so more players are playing on the maps, that helps the smaller server with less wvw players and fills up the maps.

In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.
Confusing i think @ first but he will learn over time and has more chance to get around other big groups if he wants to discover the map.

In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.
Confusing, it will take time to learn the best tactics again. But it breaks up the bis nonsense zerg fighting.
Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?
New Maps if my guild is there, or a Commander online. Or if there are enough players to have fun with on the maps.

—Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

I’ve played in havoc-sized groups (3-10 people or thereabouts), guild groups of 15-25, guild groups of 25+, and solo roaming. I do it all basically…. I’ve played mostly in groups that do care about PPT and try to take/defend objectives instead of just looking for fights, but too long without a fight and even a PPT group gets antsy.

—Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

I usually play on the borderlands, only occasionally on EB. My experience doesn’t change much to be honest. Small changes only. On EB sometimes the fights get huge (like 40+ on each side) which is not my preference, anything over 25 or so per side is too big for my taste.

—Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

I can’t speak to what the experience in the new BL is gonna be once people get used to the map. But right now it feels way too big. You can run around for what seems like forever without seeing an enemy player. That’s been most of my experience so far. There’s just no one to fight.

As a result, you spend more time running around, watching rams gradually down gates, and fighting PvE mobs like keep/tower lords. But that’s not why I WvW. If I wanted to kill PvE mobs I have the entire rest of the game to do it in. I go to WvW to fight other players, and they’re just harder to find in the new map.

—Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

Haven’t had enough fights to say to be honest. Seems like there’s a lot of places where one side or the other has to push through a choke or up an incline (which makes it difficult to aim AoE at people standing at the top). Situations like that reward passivity unfortunately.

—In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

It takes much longer. Feels like gate HP has been buffed, especially fortified gates. Got boring to be honest.

—How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

I wish I got mastery XP in wuv, personally. I have enough ranks to unlock all the traits, so I don’t need wxp except for the doodads you use to get hero points. I main guardian in WvW and don’t really plan on using dragonhunter so…..

—How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Maybe people get used to the new map or something and groups and players are better able to find each other. But I’m gonna be less likely to play this new map. EB has become the first choice of every WvW guild I’ve talked to since the expansion. If EB is queued, and they can’t find fights on the new map, they’ll probably just log.

—In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Y’all needed to ask this question six months ago. In the stress tests the consensus of everyone I talked to was that the map was too big. Now, here we are at release, and it’s still too big. I don’t know what Anet expected to happen. You increase the play area by a huge amount but don’t increase the population? Why did you think it would turn out any other way?

—In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

Dunno how I’d do that in 100 words or less

—In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Ditto

—Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

EB. Desert BL as of right now is huge and empty. I hope that’s because people are still PvE’ing. But on my server (FA) there were queues last reset and I expect the same was true on TC and SoS, and the maps still felt lonely. I used to like borderlands more, now I like it less. It’s too big.