Guild Wars 2

So currently we have a few mechanics in the game which I believe are a serious detriment to the future of WvW in general.

Any server that has been involved in large fights has undoubtedly run into the problems associated with culling. You’re running along chasing a few people from the opposite faction and then out of no where you encounter a squad of 20+ people in your face. Or you’ve fought that thief that seems to stay invisible permanently and can tie up a supply camp singlehandedly so that it can never be capped. I know that Arena Net has acknowledged that this is an issue and have said that they are working on it so I’ll keep my fingers crossed that at least culling will be handled sometime in the future. Until then you can expect to see small havoc squads of thieves taking and holding supply camps while taking advantage of the culling bug.

Now we have some other issues that I think should be added to A-Net’s to-do list. One biggie is “turtling”. I’m sure a lot of servers aren’t familiar with what turtling is at least in the definition in WvW. There is currently a mechanic in place where most AoEs will only hit a maximum of 5 targets. Then there are some buffs such as warrior shouts which don’t suffer from this max target limitation. When used in combination it allows a group of 40 players to stand tightly on top of each other and take advantage of the shout buffs and heals while only having 5 people actually take AoE damage. On top of this, guardians can put up bubbles to protect the entire group from taking any damage.

Now at first you may be thinking “hey this is a pretty cool tactic”, but think again. Do you really think it’s intended that an entire 40+ man squad should be able to avoid most of the AoE damage that was clearly designed to handle such situations? I’ll go out on a limb here and say no it wasn’t.

The downside of grouping up into a turtle formation is that it lacks mobility. Well we have a solution to that problem. Enter the portal bomb! A portal bomb is when a large force or zerg uses a Mesmer portal to port in behind enemy defenses or to get into a more strategic location for an attack. Now portal bombing is nothing new and has been used since beta as a valid tactic to sneak around defenses. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem though is that portal bombing adds mobility to the turtle zerg. A well-coordinated group can stack up on a portal entrance and pop out on the other side in their nice little AoE-resistant turtle shell.

At the very least, the mechanic of turtling really needs to be addressed. I can’t believe that A-Net ever intended for AoEs to be rendered almost useless by a simple group formation. Whether mesmer portals need to be given a max cap or not I’ll leave for others to debate (I’m personally on the fence with that one).

These issues are pretty major and I believe it will cause the current meta of WvW warfare to change into something ugly and unintended by A-Net. I am hoping that someone from A-Net will address these problems and let us know what their position is on the matters.

kidbs.8920:

So currently we have a few mechanics in the game which I believe are a serious detriment to the future of WvW in general.

When used in combination it allows a group of 40 players to stand tightly on top of each other and take advantage of the shout buffs and heals while only having 5 people actually take AoE damage. On top of this, guardians can put up bubbles to protect the entire group from taking any damage.

….

(this quote was snipped see OP for entire quote)

I’m glad you explained this so clearly as I am one of those who did not understand what the big deal was until I saw it myself. To stress it’s the NO damage at all factor for 40+ people on top of the occasional random 5 (of 40) people that might take minor AoE damage which differentiates this from your average portal concept.

I recognize that since it’s common place, that it’s a valid tactic. Turtling (or as my server calls it, stacking) really sucks all of the enjoyment out of our fights. We were a low tier server up until we made a huge leap upwards in the rankings. We got matched with a server called Maguuma. They used stacking against us. At first we viewed it as abusing the system for multiple reasons, we were to an extent wrong, but the idea behind it remained.

That entire match, we were quite dominant thanks to numbers. But, in order to fight Maguuma forces 1 on 1, we would have to start stacking on each other. Now, any time my server is having trouble with a fight, we pull out the stacking (though to our credit, we don’t when we don’t have to). Sadly, it just sucks every bit of fun out of WvW. It doesn’t feel or look epic when there’s two groups of people just sitting there AoEing at each other. There’s no chaos, no sense of a battle, it feels just far too much like we’re milking every little bit of effectiveness we can out of the game. It’s not fun, it’s what’s required to win. And combine that with culling, and sometimes we can’t even see these large groupings of players. It’s really sad.

Portal bombing I love on its own, though I think portal needs to be nerfed. I think stacking/turtling will be the reason I stop WvWing, and culling just makes everything worse.

Turtling sounds interesting. Not come across it but it makes sense.

Thing is you cannot make AoE hit everyone. If you do that it’d become ridiculous and rangers and elementalists would become supreme gods of WvW.

As for portals, I like how they are minus culling. If you cap the numbers of a portal bomb you will make it kinda crappy for WvW. Unless the number was really quite significant.

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

Quick question. I know player skills only hit max of 5 people, but how about siege? Is that also capped?

Arius.7031:

I recognize that since it’s common place, that it’s a valid tactic. Turtling (or as my server calls it, stacking) really sucks all of the enjoyment out of our fights. We were a low tier server up until we made a huge leap upwards in the rankings. We got matched with a server called Maguuma. They used stacking against us. At first we viewed it as abusing the system for multiple reasons, we were to an extent wrong, but the idea behind it remained.

That entire match, we were quite dominant thanks to numbers. But, in order to fight Maguuma forces 1 on 1, we would have to start stacking on each other. Now, any time my server is having trouble with a fight, we pull out the stacking (though to our credit, we don’t when we don’t have to). Sadly, it just sucks every bit of fun out of WvW. It doesn’t feel or look epic when there’s two groups of people just sitting there AoEing at each other. There’s no chaos, no sense of a battle, it feels just far too much like we’re milking every little bit of effectiveness we can out of the game. It’s not fun, it’s what’s required to win. And combine that with culling, and sometimes we can’t even see these large groupings of players. It’s really sad.

Portal bombing I love on its own, though I think portal needs to be nerfed. I think stacking/turtling will be the reason I stop WvWing, and culling just makes everything worse.

We “stack” also but we move… we stack then push, stack/rally then move, stack then siege… etc. Movement from location to location… or maybe we just use the term “stack” much more loosely more compared to group up before a movement.

With this Turtle Port there is no movement at all outside of portal and no risk in this. Stacking is not quite the same thing or could just be a terminology difference.

Katsumoto.9452:

Quick question. I know player skills only hit max of 5 people, but how about siege? Is that also capped?

Siege is not capped.

waeren.9743:

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

This is just a tad bit fallacious. To say that a little change never hurts is too general to be true. It would be a change if suddenly everyone in WvW became a pink pony, does that mean it would be good? Stacking is a change, but what does it bring that is positive? Does it add to the fun of WvW? I don’t know, for me it severely decreases the fun and is in fact bad. I like change when it’s good change.

Do other people actually enjoy stacking? This is all just my opinion, but I’d be pretty surprised if there were many people out there who found it enjoyable.

I LOVE the skill Portal in WvW. I like using it, I like it being used against me, I like watching it, and I think it is one of those skills that has a huge skill ceiling for creative potential.

AoE limited to 5 people is a bad solution to a valid problem.
ANet knows what the problem is, so we don’t have to articulate it.

The solution creates this situation where the tighter your group is stacked, the more powerful it is.

Dodging, positioning, awareness all mean nothing. There are 3 determining factors in the most efficient WvW battle:

1) Which side has more players.
2) Which side has tighter stacks.
3) Which side has better Guardian/Mesmer cooperation to move and protect the stack.

Combine those three things and very little else matters.

Arani.9057:

Arius.7031:

I recognize that since it’s common place, that it’s a valid tactic. Turtling (or as my server calls it, stacking) really sucks all of the enjoyment out of our fights. We were a low tier server up until we made a huge leap upwards in the rankings. We got matched with a server called Maguuma. They used stacking against us. At first we viewed it as abusing the system for multiple reasons, we were to an extent wrong, but the idea behind it remained.

That entire match, we were quite dominant thanks to numbers. But, in order to fight Maguuma forces 1 on 1, we would have to start stacking on each other. Now, any time my server is having trouble with a fight, we pull out the stacking (though to our credit, we don’t when we don’t have to). Sadly, it just sucks every bit of fun out of WvW. It doesn’t feel or look epic when there’s two groups of people just sitting there AoEing at each other. There’s no chaos, no sense of a battle, it feels just far too much like we’re milking every little bit of effectiveness we can out of the game. It’s not fun, it’s what’s required to win. And combine that with culling, and sometimes we can’t even see these large groupings of players. It’s really sad.

Portal bombing I love on its own, though I think portal needs to be nerfed. I think stacking/turtling will be the reason I stop WvWing, and culling just makes everything worse.

We “stack” also but we move… we stack then push, stack/rally then move, stack then siege… etc. Movement from location to location… or maybe we just use the term “stack” much more loosely more compared to group up before a movement.

With this Turtle Port there is no movement at all outside of portal and no risk in this. Stacking is not quite the same thing or could just be a terminology difference.

I never suggested my way of phrasing it was correct. I was pointing out that my server called it stacking—not that it should be called stacking. But I concede (though that’s not the right word since I never opposed it) that turtling is more accurate. Really it’s a bit silly, because I never said that’s the way it should be said… But whatever.

Arius.7031:

waeren.9743:

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

This is just a tad bit fallacious. To say that a little change never hurts is too general to be true. It would be a change if suddenly everyone in WvW became a pink pony, does that mean it would be good? Stacking is a change, but what does it bring that is positive? Does it add to the fun of WvW? I don’t know, for me it severely decreases the fun and is in fact bad. I like change when it’s good change.

Do other people actually enjoy stacking? This is all just my opinion, but I’d be pretty surprised if there were many people out there who found it enjoyable.

Just curious, but since you think something is bad you’re assuming it’s bad for everybody?

I can’t speak for everybody but I’ve had quite a bit of fun. Guess being on the receiving end is less fun.

waeren.9743:

Arius.7031:

waeren.9743:

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

This is just a tad bit fallacious. To say that a little change never hurts is too general to be true. It would be a change if suddenly everyone in WvW became a pink pony, does that mean it would be good? Stacking is a change, but what does it bring that is positive? Does it add to the fun of WvW? I don’t know, for me it severely decreases the fun and is in fact bad. I like change when it’s good change.

Do other people actually enjoy stacking? This is all just my opinion, but I’d be pretty surprised if there were many people out there who found it enjoyable.

Just curious, but since you think something is bad you’re assuming it’s bad for everybody?

I can’t speak for everybody but I’ve had quite a bit of fun. Guess being on the receiving end is less fun.

Feeling invincible can be fun… for a while.

Just keep doing it. Eventually everyone will be forced to do it, and then we will all find out how “fun” it really is.

waeren.9743:

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

There are some ways to semi-counter a turtle but it will never totally prevent it. Besides, there is no way on earth that A-Net could have intended for AoEs to be fully countered just by stacking people up on one another. That would be completely asinine.

It’s not about the counter it’s risk vs reward. It can be countered but at a far higher risk vs reward rate of those using it.

waeren.9743:

Arius.7031:

waeren.9743:

Yes, why change. The current zerg and hope you see your opponents first meta is a lot more fun.

On a more serious note, some guilds from SBI are saying it’s already been countered., it might be worth checking with them. You can always organize a different non turtle defense if it doesn’t suit your playstyle.

If this game would be played in the same way all the time it would get old pretty fast. A bit of change from time to time is never bad.

This is just a tad bit fallacious. To say that a little change never hurts is too general to be true. It would be a change if suddenly everyone in WvW became a pink pony, does that mean it would be good? Stacking is a change, but what does it bring that is positive? Does it add to the fun of WvW? I don’t know, for me it severely decreases the fun and is in fact bad. I like change when it’s good change.

Do other people actually enjoy stacking? This is all just my opinion, but I’d be pretty surprised if there were many people out there who found it enjoyable.

Just curious, but since you think something is bad you’re assuming it’s bad for everybody?

I can’t speak for everybody but I’ve had quite a bit of fun. Guess being on the receiving end is less fun.

No, I never said that I assumed that. I specifically said:

Stacking is a change, but what does it bring that is positive? Does it add to the fun of WvW? I don’t know, for me it severely decreases the fun and is in fact bad … This is all just my opinion, but I’d be pretty surprised if there were many people out there who found it enjoyable.

I never assumed anything to be the case. I merely said I’d be surprised if it was any different. Unique and cool strategies are fine, but is standing inside of one another a tactic/strategy? If so, what is fun about it that you cannot have playing normally?

@Arius , no stress about terminology, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

Just wanted to mention, that there is ways to counter the turtle.
When Elona encountered this tactic first time we were taken by surprise, I still can remember.^^
But it took just a few days of trial and error to get the counter working.
By now we are working on countering the counter

Sounds to me like the counter is siege. Particularly ballistas.

Arani.9057

We “stack” also but we move… we stack then push, stack/rally then move, stack then siege… etc. Movement from location to location… or maybe we just use the term “stack” much more loosely more compared to group up before a movement.
With this Turtle Port there is no movement at all outside of portal and no risk in this. Stacking is not quite the same thing or could just be a terminology difference.

…. i think you guys just re-invented the roman testudo formation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation

^ No wonder the romans got such a big empire. Cheating kittens stacking like that

Maharius.4651:

^ No wonder the romans got such a big empire. Cheating kittens stacking like that

Man I wish I could of seen the look on Hannibal’s face when the Roman army portal bombed his elephants…

As to the whole “portal bombing” thing, I think it’s a legit tactic and I think it’s ingenious when used correctly, however it has been shown to be very powerful by allowing golems to use it and to be able to create portal chains, transporting dozens of players and golems across the whole map, giving defenders literally no reaction time to stop the oncoming mass.

I’m fine with the current implementation of portals, however I think an easy nerf to the portal while keeping its usefulness in sneaking people into towers/keeps ect would to give it a small cooldown per person entering the portal (much like how the TF2 Engineer teleports work). This cooldown, plus a longer time for the portal to remain up, would still allow the portal to be effective in scenarios, however would nerf it’s impact to flash bomb an invisible army upon opponents.

Zulubeast.8519:

Man I wish I could of seen the look on Hannibal’s face when the Roman army portal bombed his elephants…

Jamaz.9837:

Zulubeast.8519:

Man I wish I could of seen the look on Hannibal’s face when the Roman army portal bombed his elephants…

Yeah, no way you can see Hannibal’s face…

I’m not sure if anyone actually remembers a game called “Shadowbane” it was a MMO WvW enviroment. this game came out before WoW.

Any guild that was worth anything “stacked” we called out targets and dominated other guilds.

this isn’t a system thats new. it’s been getting done in any game that has allowed it. because it’s a tactic that works. The real issue is the culling problem.

people who have issues with the tactic of stacking are more then likely just frusterated by the fact they are not as organized. which is understandable. in the end to be truely effective you need to be in a group.

RockonHarder.7235:

I’m not sure if anyone actually remembers a game called “Shadowbane” it was a MMO WvW enviroment. this game came out before WoW.

Any guild that was worth anything “stacked” we called out targets and dominated other guilds.

this isn’t a system thats new. it’s been getting done in any game that has allowed it. because it’s a tactic that works. The real issue is the culling problem.

people who have issues with the tactic of stacking are more then likely just frusterated by the fact they are not as organized. which is understandable. in the end to be truely effective you need to be in a group.

we really need to stop making multiple threads. its not “stacking” we are talking about we are talking about Buffs being unlimeted targets and a 40 man zerg with invulnerability and stability that can’t be hit in the first place let alone the 5 amn AoE restriction after that.

the culling and portal drama is just icing on the cake.

http://i.imgur.com/CBGKb.jpg

This is what they are talking about Rockon

Arani.9057:

RockonHarder.7235:

I’m not sure if anyone actually remembers a game called “Shadowbane” it was a MMO WvW enviroment. this game came out before WoW.

Any guild that was worth anything “stacked” we called out targets and dominated other guilds.

this isn’t a system thats new. it’s been getting done in any game that has allowed it. because it’s a tactic that works. The real issue is the culling problem.

people who have issues with the tactic of stacking are more then likely just frusterated by the fact they are not as organized. which is understandable. in the end to be truely effective you need to be in a group.

we really need to stop making multiple threads. its not “stacking” we are talking about we are talking about Buffs being unlimeted targets and a 40 man zerg with invulnerability and stability that can’t be hit in the first place let alone the 5 amn AoE restriction after that.

the culling and portal drama is just icing on the cake.

I didn’t see any other threads discussing the multiple mechanics around “stacking” or “turtling” when I started this one. I simply wanted to address some of the biggest issues (aside from orb and outmanned buffs and server transfers) that are affecting WvW.

Arius.7031:

I recognize that since it’s common place, that it’s a valid tactic. Turtling (or as my server calls it, stacking) really sucks all of the enjoyment out of our fights. We were a low tier server up until we made a huge leap upwards in the rankings. We got matched with a server called Maguuma. They used stacking against us. At first we viewed it as abusing the system for multiple reasons, we were to an extent wrong, but the idea behind it remained.

That entire match, we were quite dominant thanks to numbers. But, in order to fight Maguuma forces 1 on 1, we would have to start stacking on each other. Now, any time my server is having trouble with a fight, we pull out the stacking (though to our credit, we don’t when we don’t have to). Sadly, it just sucks every bit of fun out of WvW. It doesn’t feel or look epic when there’s two groups of people just sitting there AoEing at each other. There’s no chaos, no sense of a battle, it feels just far too much like we’re milking every little bit of effectiveness we can out of the game. It’s not fun, it’s what’s required to win. And combine that with culling, and sometimes we can’t even see these large groupings of players. It’s really sad.

Portal bombing I love on its own, though I think portal needs to be nerfed. I think stacking/turtling will be the reason I stop WvWing, and culling just makes everything worse.

OMG. I want screenies of two forces just standing there looking at each other! I think just how ridiculous this is won’t hit home until the masses and ANet can see it.

I think AoE should be changed to hit everyone but then AoE spiking would be very strong.

At this point I would say, ranged AoE should have their circles reduced and PdAoE should have the benefit of larger radius.

Why not use AoE that doesn’t have the 5 player cap?

@ kidbs.8920: no think this one was the first dedicated to the topic except the one where SOME BG members (not all) are trying to say its some new leet strat they came up with the spartans and their elite slave Helot forces or such…

I didn’t mean to dismiss your thread start I’m glad this one is here it was outlined well it’s all the others starting to get repetitive and people seem keep going back to thinking this is just about the AoE limit or porting or stacking …

If you are new tot he thread please read the OP. This is NOT about oh just arrow cart the stack or just Batista them etc etc… it’s not about just do this counter la~

lil baby anime.6834

Why not use AoE that doesn’t have the 5 player cap?

they have invulnerability and stability with this mechanic set up and it isn’t “JUst” use the bigger AoEs. You have to first strip the invulnerability or use the only thing that counters stability before you can even start to work on the AoE limit issue and then add in the mobility of portal and its rinse repeat if they don’t overly suck.

Aaron.4807:

Arius.7031:

I recognize that since it’s common place, that it’s a valid tactic. Turtling (or as my server calls it, stacking) really sucks all of the enjoyment out of our fights. We were a low tier server up until we made a huge leap upwards in the rankings. We got matched with a server called Maguuma. They used stacking against us. At first we viewed it as abusing the system for multiple reasons, we were to an extent wrong, but the idea behind it remained.

That entire match, we were quite dominant thanks to numbers. But, in order to fight Maguuma forces 1 on 1, we would have to start stacking on each other. Now, any time my server is having trouble with a fight, we pull out the stacking (though to our credit, we don’t when we don’t have to). Sadly, it just sucks every bit of fun out of WvW. It doesn’t feel or look epic when there’s two groups of people just sitting there AoEing at each other. There’s no chaos, no sense of a battle, it feels just far too much like we’re milking every little bit of effectiveness we can out of the game. It’s not fun, it’s what’s required to win. And combine that with culling, and sometimes we can’t even see these large groupings of players. It’s really sad.

Portal bombing I love on its own, though I think portal needs to be nerfed. I think stacking/turtling will be the reason I stop WvWing, and culling just makes everything worse.

OMG. I want screenies of two forces just standing there looking at each other! I think just how ridiculous this is won’t hit home until the masses and ANet can see it.

I’ll see if I come across it in my WvW. We’re not against Maguuma anymore so it’s not very common. However, even if I did find it, truth be told, you probably wouldn’t even see them. Stacking does something that actually manages to make culling worse. I’ve seen stacks go undetected by the majority of a zerg for extended periods of time. It really is just insanely broken, stacking makes something already bad far worse. Another reason I don’t like it :/.

This is being discussed here http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/73293-mass-stacking-of-players-legit-or-exploit/ as well.

Arani.9057:

@ kidbs.8920: no think this one was the first dedicated to the topic except the one where SOME BG members (not all) are trying to say its some new leet strat they came up with the spartans and their elite slave Helot forces or such…

Uh huh, yeah. I don’t think it occurred like that.

@ Arius:

" It would be a change if suddenly everyone in WvW became a pink pony, does that mean it would be good?"

O. M. G.!!1!

I am totally starting that movement! Who is with me?

The pink ponies of doom shall ride.

Yeah I don’t think this is intended. I doubt ArenaNet’s designers for WvW set out and said “Let’s make it so that standing in one spot with 40 people negates all AoE completely.” as that would be ridiculously poor design.

It sounds to me like the heals and junk people are using need to cap at 5 people just like AoE damage skills.

Mighteous.9281

Brad pitt didn’t have a 5 man AoE cap nor the ability to portal to the walls… when they moved they were vulnerable and hence a risk. When you have no vulnerability there is no risk.

Arani.9057:

RockonHarder.7235:

I’m not sure if anyone actually remembers a game called “Shadowbane” it was a MMO WvW enviroment. this game came out before WoW.

Any guild that was worth anything “stacked” we called out targets and dominated other guilds.

this isn’t a system thats new. it’s been getting done in any game that has allowed it. because it’s a tactic that works. The real issue is the culling problem.

people who have issues with the tactic of stacking are more then likely just frusterated by the fact they are not as organized. which is understandable. in the end to be truely effective you need to be in a group.

we really need to stop making multiple threads. its not “stacking” we are talking about we are talking about Buffs being unlimeted targets and a 40 man zerg with invulnerability and stability that can’t be hit in the first place let alone the 5 amn AoE restriction after that.

the culling and portal drama is just icing on the cake.

Buff’s while are unlimited only have temporary effects. i have a guardian so even with max traits spent i can put a buff up that last’s 12-14ish seconds but then have to wait 48-96 seconds before i can put it up again.

stacks while useful are only so useful. powerful against an unorganized groups. So far as i can tell my only issue i have found with stacks is i can’t see them until i run into it.

there are ways to beat a stack. for example. seige is not affected by the limit of 5 targets.

i know i’m playing the devils advicate on this but i’ve played alot of WvW based pvp over the years and this is a tactic that gets used alot.

2000 years ago they used the Phalanx formation. but eventually it got broken too.

as for how the buff’s can target more then 5 well they are of limited use and unless the group is extremely organized those buff’s will be down alot of the fight.

tell me how often most classes can drop an AoE and then ask yourself how often a class can drop a buff.

i get that it’s frusterating but i can’t honestly say any of that is truely broken.

Fear is probably a prime example of a counter (unless stability is also being spammed). I have yet to test it.

RockonHarder.7235:

Arani.9057:

RockonHarder.7235:

I’m not sure if anyone actually remembers a game called “Shadowbane” it was a MMO WvW enviroment. this game came out before WoW.

Any guild that was worth anything “stacked” we called out targets and dominated other guilds.

this isn’t a system thats new. it’s been getting done in any game that has allowed it. because it’s a tactic that works. The real issue is the culling problem.

people who have issues with the tactic of stacking are more then likely just frusterated by the fact they are not as organized. which is understandable. in the end to be truely effective you need to be in a group.

we really need to stop making multiple threads. its not “stacking” we are talking about we are talking about Buffs being unlimeted targets and a 40 man zerg with invulnerability and stability that can’t be hit in the first place let alone the 5 amn AoE restriction after that.

the culling and portal drama is just icing on the cake.

Buff’s while are unlimited only have temporary effects. i have a guardian so even with max traits spent i can put a buff up that last’s 12-14ish seconds but then have to wait 48-96 seconds before i can put it up again.

stacks while useful are only so useful. powerful against an unorganized groups. So far as i can tell my only issue i have found with stacks is i can’t see them until i run into it.

there are ways to beat a stack. for example. seige is not affected by the limit of 5 targets.

i know i’m playing the devils advicate on this but i’ve played alot of WvW based pvp over the years and this is a tactic that gets used alot.

2000 years ago they used the Phalanx formation. but eventually it got broken too.

as for how the buff’s can target more then 5 well they are of limited use and unless the group is extremely organized those buff’s will be down alot of the fight.

tell me how often most classes can drop an AoE and then ask yourself how often a class can drop a buff.

i get that it’s frusterating but i can’t honestly say any of that is truely broken.

buffs stack up to 60s, with a 45s refresh (example) it would be constantly up by example… phalanxes didn’t have the benefit of only having 5 people risk damage if their shields dropped.

A soldier has an estimated duration of “stamina” (boons for our example) that allows him to hold said shield if you can refresh said stamina as fast or nearly as fast as it drains he can hold it forever or nearly so only allowing minimal damage to come in small pockets of risk meanwhile AoE healers have no limitations ro cover those pockets.

It’s not about the countering, people know how to counter, it’s about the risk v reward of it. There is not enough risk for the reward of how much siege equipment and cash destroyed, or time consuming distraction to the enemy, for example when performed well. Little loss chance, lots of gain potential = imbalance issue.

Some classes have more AoE conditions/Buffs than others. Can’t really compare the 2 in a generalized fashion like that IMO. An ele has a lot of both (on the left side and no spec considerations), I have 1 for example, and the same 1 is also my buff, so its on them or us or we are engaged in melee ranged fight. (not including the staff boon bounce for this example). I don’t think it can be compared how you have posed it.

I’ve been BG since prelaunch and this match is the first I’ve seen the portal bombs used. Funny thing is the first time I saw it used the people had red names over their heads; I thought kitten nice coordination. It reminded me of the old days of Shadowbane and stacking and Druid wizard telebombs. Anyways it’s nice to see people coming up with specs and tactics.; look forward to seeing more. For everyone complaining wvw should be about specs and tactics and not about a bunch of random pug 5 man groups. Looking forward to a dwarf axe chucking spec lol.

again we are not talking about when a Mesmer spec ops their but through a choke or flanks your forces and ports an army in… we are talking about when 40 people stack invulnerability/stability/heals to such a point they are “near” invulnerable as there’s still something that counters stability/invul, THEN begins to portal from siege equipment to siege equipment, dead player to dead player, NPC to NPC never taking damage unless u have pre-set arrow carts and have the right classes to counter the invulnerability ON HAND.

This isn’t just porting into the lords room, or behind you siege camp.

You might ask who cares because you can’t really take a keep doing this… but you can hold up a way-point, manpower, siege destruction at a far higher value than any risk you take, for example.

Turtling shouldn’t NEED a counter. It should be ineffective by its very description: “Everyone stack tightly in the same space.” That should NEVER be a good idea in WvW. It shouldn’t even be possible, but technical limitations need to allow it, so at least make it something zergs do if they want to die, not win.

Anyone who actually defends the use of this tactic has no concept of good game design (or sportsmanship) whatsoever.

…As for portals, just limit its utility such as:
1) Apply a debuff (as someone mentioned) when they use a portal which prohibits them from using another portal for 45 seconds. Or…
2) Allow a portal to carry only up to 10 players before it closes.

2000 years ago the Romans invented the turtle formation, did the Persian/Parthia crying and yelling to the gods for unfair tactics employed by the Romans? lol

Cry me an effin river.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation

Perhaps using a portal should apply a debuff that strips all boons and prevents receiving boons for 10 seconds.

Turtles could still function at chokes and doors, but would be less effective when they are portal bombing and re-rendering.

Unfortunately, if you used a bomb on them, it would hit all of them, not just 5.

If they limit the number that AOEs can hit, they need to limit the number of what heals/buffs can hit as well.

Erebus Delirium.4892:

Turtling shouldn’t NEED a counter. It should be ineffective by its very description: “Everyone stack tightly in the same space.” That should NEVER be a good idea in WvW. It shouldn’t even be possible, but technical limitations need to allow it, so at least make it something zergs do if they want to die, not win.

Anyone who actually defends the use of this tactic has no concept of good game design (or sportsmanship) whatsoever.

…As for portals, just limit its utility such as:
1) Apply a debuff (as someone mentioned) when they use a portal which prohibits them from using another portal for 45 seconds. Or…
2) Allow a portal to carry only up to 10 players before it closes.

There will always be times in WvW when holding a position trumps all. Through out history this has happened time and time again. not once did any one question it.

If a group of players decides to hunker down and hold a spot putting all there energy into making sure you can’t take there position then you have number of options.

take action in a manner that will force them to move, attack and break there lines, ignore them and look for greener pastures.

to many games and to many events has allowed these tactic to be used for you guys to win this arguement about this being an imbalancing game mechanic.

But if you must next time you see it happen report them all for blocking your game progress.

Have i ever done this, nah i have never been in a position where it would be required. But i can honestly say if my group/guild knew we needed to hold a position to keep an enemy server from making any major advances and this was the best tactic then yes i would do it.

Go watch 300. we’ve been doing it for along time

This discussion is more about Unorganised versus Organised the organised stack as they can cordinate the un organised just zerg with big numbers use no tactics dont think about anything abput how skills and attacks actuly work.

the moment that zerg meets Organised they get wiped and then we get all of these Whine posts how an uncordinated bunch cant handle cordinated and they want that fixed highly amusing.