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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

This may have been touched on previous but I don’t frequent the forums.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but I was talking to some friends about the (disgusting) condition meta (that has broken this game mode)

The most interesting point was the build spec trade off. For example, players who opt to go full DPS know that the trade off is being extremely squishy. This IMO defines the word balance.
On the opposite side of the damage spectrum, DOT has no trade off and is easily now more powerful than DPS. This IMO defines the word broken.

with so much talk about how to “save” WvW, and rumors that Anet has completely abandoned the game mode I can’t help but sit here shaking my head, thinking people left because of balance. NOT score system! Balance.

Balance should be the main focus IMO.

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

This is definitely something we cry about often.

The WvW team (if it exists) is not the balance team, though. We’ve been told they don’t have any sway over balance changes, generally. You’ll have to convince the PvE devs that their decisions are onerous in our PvP gamemode.

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Posted by: Rapier.3675

Rapier.3675

well at least i see veriety of builds on the map and not just power builds. and necros do shine finaly after all those years of hiting heads in the wall.

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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

well at least i see veriety of builds on the map and not just power builds. and necros do shine finaly after all those years of hiting heads in the wall.

Power Necro is absolutely viable, atm.

Using Necro as an example of my point in OP. Necros have the highest HP in game plus Lifeforce. Now add full trailblazer and the ability to “burst” down foes in seconds with (Damage Over Time) DOT.

When damage over time means more damage per second than damage per second.. _

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Posted by: Rapier.3675

Rapier.3675

well at least i see veriety of builds on the map and not just power builds. and necros do shine finaly after all those years of hiting heads in the wall.

Power Necro is absolutely viable, atm.

Using Necro as an example of my point in OP. Necros have the highest HP in game plus Lifeforce. Now add full trailblazer and the ability to “burst” down foes in seconds with (Damage Over Time) DOT.

When damage over time means more damage per second than damage per second.. _

Yeah true they have highest HP and LF with not moch of an escape abilities

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

I still haven’t seen this famous necro condi burst. You probably can do it if you play some lamer spec, but normal WvW condi reaper doesn’t have any kind of condi burst. Epidemic doesn’t count because it’s too easy to avoid.

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Posted by: ThunderPanda.1872

ThunderPanda.1872

with so much talk about how to “save” WvW, and rumors that Anet has completely abandoned the game mode I can’t help but sit here shaking my head, thinking people left because of balance. NOT score system! Balance.

Balance should be the main focus IMO.

To be fair condi balance wasn’t that huge of an issue when they did the polls 5+ months ago… They seem to make issues faster than they can fix them.

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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

with so much talk about how to “save” WvW, and rumors that Anet has completely abandoned the game mode I can’t help but sit here shaking my head, thinking people left because of balance. NOT score system! Balance.

Balance should be the main focus IMO.

To be fair condi balance wasn’t that huge of an issue when they did the polls 5+ months ago… They seem to make issues faster than they can fix them.

Was that an option for people to vote on? All the votes I’ve been apart of had nothing to do at all with balance.

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Posted by: Aktium.9506

Aktium.9506

I still haven’t seen this famous necro condi burst.

people are most likely encountering reaper rune builds

see vid for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lfn37ka-5o

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

I still haven’t seen this famous necro condi burst.

people are most likely encountering reaper rune builds

see vid for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lfn37ka-5o

But he have utility bar full of kitten and enemy was afk. So condi burst is effective if you can change kitten utilities on before fight and enemy is afk.

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Posted by: Aktium.9506

Aktium.9506

I still haven’t seen this famous necro condi burst.

people are most likely encountering reaper rune builds

see vid for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lfn37ka-5o

But he have utility bar full of kitten and enemy was afk. So condi burst is effective if you can change kitten utilities on before fight and enemy is afk.

Well it is effective, since people in WvW are in general incredibly slow at hitting their condi cleanse.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

This may have been touched on previous but I don’t frequent the forums.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but I was talking to some friends about the (disgusting) condition meta (that has broken this game mode)

The most interesting point was the build spec trade off. For example, players who opt to go full DPS know that the trade off is being extremely squishy. This IMO defines the word balance.
On the opposite side of the damage spectrum, DOT has no trade off and is easily now more powerful than DPS. This IMO defines the word broken.

with so much talk about how to “save” WvW, and rumors that Anet has completely abandoned the game mode I can’t help but sit here shaking my head, thinking people left because of balance. NOT score system! Balance.

Balance should be the main focus IMO.

Yeah, and we have begged and begged and begged… for the devs to look at problematic issues like condi systems, and other design issues, for a long time. Nothing has been done. Best we can hope for is that the xpac revamps profession and various things like condi, burst numbers, stealth, mobility… designs.

In the meantime, just use what’s broken.

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(edited by Swagger.1459)

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

I think it’s more likely that the xpac tries to make resistance more of a thing and claims that solves the problem.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

The case against Conditions is overstated. There are a few specific builds that might be overtuned but this hardly an across the board issue with every class.

There were a lot of people that were overly fond of the Zerker meta wherein it was kill the enemy in 5 seconds before he kills you. It was a deliberate design decision to get away from that.

DOT is NOT "easily now more powerful then DPS’. Bring your cleanses to the fight and use them properly and a good number of the condition builds can be neutralized. It is not a given nor should it be, that a Power build has to beat every condition build it encounters . I do not consider myself as highly skilled yet can still beat many of those condition builds using power. If I can do it others can.

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Posted by: Napo.1230

Napo.1230

Just don’t give condi armor toughness and vitality.
It should require more than one stat investment to get out some of this ridiculous damage.
The zerker meta was power precision ferocity so if the burst was negated or you didn’t dodge it was game over.

Also people say bring more cleanse but does that really help? I know on my necro/engi/mesmer I can apply stuff for fun very quickly. Hell even auto attacks give alot of pressure.

I mainly play power but even I admit when I play condi it’s for an easy night because I can have nice dmg while being an absolute tank.

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Posted by: Threather.9354

Threather.9354

Its just qq, condi isnt broken, people just dont know how to play against it. It does 0 damage when resistance on(list your resistance sources) and every good Guardian can cleanse 4 condis easily from party within 1 second of application. You can even hear the necro scepter 1 and 3 cast when being focused.

F/e if all necros in your blob runs full condi without axe/wells, your comp has high chance of getting 1 pushed due to dura runes.

Condi builds sure are annoying to play against when roaming, because youre just spamming dodge cleanse burst but thats just roaming. WvW is mostly largescale and definitely condi war, guard, rev, mesmer, thief, engi, ranger and ele builds are not the optimal ones there. Hybrid necro has its place, but you sacrifice so much AoE boon corrupt for it that it definitely isnt any better than power, that can demolish melee parties single handedly without relying to epi.

Simple: never stay in range of enemy bomb (900 for both well and purge) unless baiting/pushing with stealth. And even then only guards/wars make the frontline. If you suck on those classes, you have 0 reason to be in reaper shroud range.

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(edited by Threather.9354)

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Posted by: Jacion.6302

Jacion.6302

I think it’s more likely that the xpac tries to make resistance more of a thing and claims that solves the problem.

Oh resistance you little devil….nothing like popping resistance, diving through bomb , annilating enemy and having resistance run its course as 500stacks of confidence explode you into dust in 1 tick while you are in a blood crazed frenzy of the enemies backline.

EDIT: phone changed condi to confidence but that’s a pretty awesome autocorrect, so it shall stay.

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

It’s only really Necros that are problematic from a condition standpoint right now. This will be solved by the PvP version of Deathly Chill being introduced to WvW and another change to Epidemic. The last change to Epidemic in WvW only solved a small part of the problem and this skill still has a negative effect on the longevity of fights in WvW. Being able to block Epidemic will go a long way to adding some counterplay.

Gandara

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

It’s only really Necros that are problematic from a condition standpoint right now. This will be solved by the PvP version of Deathly Chill being introduced to WvW and another change to Epidemic. The last change to Epidemic in WvW only solved a small part of the problem and this skill still has a negative effect on the longevity of fights in WvW. Being able to block Epidemic will go a long way to adding some counterplay.

Do you even know how epidemic works?

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

It’s only really Necros that are problematic from a condition standpoint right now. This will be solved by the PvP version of Deathly Chill being introduced to WvW and another change to Epidemic. The last change to Epidemic in WvW only solved a small part of the problem and this skill still has a negative effect on the longevity of fights in WvW. Being able to block Epidemic will go a long way to adding some counterplay.

Mesmers are also problematic with condi. Thieves are a little problematic but that’s likely more due to Dire than the class itself.

But, yes, it’s not a universal issue. The condi classes where they have limited, non-passive application are in fairly good shape outside of bad stat combinations.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

Hello,

My apologizes for being the naive voice, but as I’d like to be rational on that topic, I want to do some maths, and I’m now facing a fundamental yet really easy issue : what is it you’re really comparing ?

I’m positive DPS (Damage Per Second) now translates as raw damage, as in “power build”, while DOT (Damage Over Time) points more towards condis builds. Unfortunately, to do some maths, you need to put things square. You can’t compare damage and damage “divided by a given amount of time”.

So the first step is to define what exactly you want to put into balance. For example, you can compare the damage delt by 100 blades in a full berserker set (4916 without crits), and the total damage delt by Flame burst in a full dire set (4136 with no duration bonus).
But it neglects the fact that flame burst will take twice as long to deal it.

Likewise, if you consider raw power damage over time, you’re including things like the time taken to close gaps.

All this to say that it’s not just a matter of damage vs. survivability, and much more needs to be taken into account. And I’m not saying everything is fine ; don’t take me wrong.

(edited by ThomasC.1056)

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Posted by: Jacion.6302

Jacion.6302

Hello,

My apologizes for being the naive voice, but as I’d like to be rational on that topic, I want to do some maths, and I’m now facing a fundamental yet really easy issue : what is it you’re really comparing ?

I’m positive DPS (Damage Per Second) now translates as raw damage, as in “power build”, while DOT (Damage Over Time) points more towards condis builds. Unfortunately, to do some maths, you need to put things square. You can’t compare damage and damage “divided by a given amount of time”.

So the first step is to define what exactly you want to put into balance. For example, you can compare the damage delt by 100 blades in a full berserker set (4916 without crits), and the total damage delt by Flame burst in a full dire set (4136 with no duration bonus).
But it neglects the fact that flame burst will take twice as long to deal it.

Likewise, if you consider raw power damage over time, you’re including things like the time taken to close gaps.

All this to say that it’s not just a matter of damage vs. survivability, and much more needs to be taken into account. And I’m not saying everything is fine ; don’t take me wrong.

Yes and if we take away ALL damage negating boons like resistance, protection, reflection etc…. DoTs follow you unlike melee dps and have unlimited range after initial apply unlike range dps. Additionally dps is affected by toughness which changes your numbers where as DoTs ignore toughness. Just saying for argument sake.

(edited by Jacion.6302)

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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

Hello,

My apologizes for being the naive voice, but as I’d like to be rational on that topic, I want to do some maths, and I’m now facing a fundamental yet really easy issue : what is it you’re really comparing ?

I’m positive DPS (Damage Per Second) now translates as raw damage, as in “power build”, while DOT (Damage Over Time) points more towards condis builds. Unfortunately, to do some maths, you need to put things square. You can’t compare damage and damage “divided by a given amount of time”.

So the first step is to define what exactly you want to put into balance. For example, you can compare the damage delt by 100 blades in a full berserker set (4916 without crits), and the total damage delt by Flame burst in a full dire set (4136 with no duration bonus).
But it neglects the fact that flame burst will take twice as long to deal it.

Likewise, if you consider raw power damage over time, you’re including things like the time taken to close gaps.

All this to say that it’s not just a matter of damage vs. survivability, and much more needs to be taken into account. And I’m not saying everything is fine ; don’t take me wrong.

Damage numbers aren’t really the issue. The issue is when DOT can be as effective (if not more) than DPS while also having full Dire, or Trailblazer gear equipped.

I guess to put it in perspective- imagine a power class at 50% crit chance and 200% crit damage wearing wanderer gear.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

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Posted by: PierPiero.9142

PierPiero.9142

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing. The only difference is that direct damage is immediate… not the condi one … why so much hate to condition builds ? try it and you will see that they are strong but they have also their weaknesses

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing. The only difference is that direct damage is immediate… not the condi one … why so much hate to condition builds ? try it and you will see that they are strong but they have also their weaknesses

The soft and hard condition systems were designed for pve, that’s why. The entire system was poorly implemented, much like stealth, non heal support and heal support in this game.

The devs did a less than stellar job at creating professions, skills and combat systems and designs. That’s clear and not really debatable. Nor is the fact that these areas have received the least amount of dev attention over the past 4+ years.

Are there some great elements to professions and combat in this game? Sure, but equally awful elements too.

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(edited by Swagger.1459)

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Posted by: Frozen.1347

Frozen.1347

Damage numbers aren’t really the issue. The issue is when DOT can be as effective (if not more) than DPS while also having full Dire, or Trailblazer gear equipped.

I guess to put it in perspective- imagine a power class at 50% crit chance and 200% crit damage wearing wanderer gear.

A zerk warrior can achieve similar defensive stats as a dire thief, while dealing a lot more damage. Stats and numbers alone don’t determine how good or bad a build is though, otherwise warrior would be always the most op, regardless of build, while ele would be the weakest class, just because of the difference in base stats.
It is mainly a combination of certain skills and traits that determine the capability of a build. And those should be looked at when discussing balance. Which of course would require an understanding of how those builds work …

Removing attribute combinations doesn’t improve balance. It only limits diversity.

(edited by Frozen.1347)

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Posted by: PierPiero.9142

PierPiero.9142

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing. The only difference is that direct damage is immediate… not the condi one … why so much hate to condition builds ? try it and you will see that they are strong but they have also their weaknesses

The soft and hard condition systems were designed for pve, that’s why. The entire system was poorly implemented, much like stealth, non heal support and heal support in this game.

so you want a system in which if you have a power build you have already won …. it would be not a great gain becouse after few monthes every people would switch to that and it would be the same thing . You’d kill any build variety …

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing. The only difference is that direct damage is immediate… not the condi one … why so much hate to condition builds ? try it and you will see that they are strong but they have also their weaknesses

The soft and hard condition systems were designed for pve, that’s why. The entire system was poorly implemented, much like stealth, non heal support and heal support in this game.

so you want a system in which if you have a power build you have already won …. it would be not a great gain becouse after few monthes every people would switch to that and it would be the same thing . You’d kill any build variety …

I want a better system of “checks and balances”.

Build diversity? This is a terrible game to talk about build diversity…

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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

Build diversity? What you think this is GW1?

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

A naked warrior with zero armor or weapons will have close to the same total vitality as a thief kitted in Dire. A warrior can kit out to get 3k+ armor and more health then that thief in dire while still having a high crit rate and ferocity , this in a power build.

Yet power builds can generate enough power to kill the same.

Why is it that a thief or Mesmer in Dire suddenly an issue? If you generate enough power to kill said warrior, you have enough to kill said thief. The fact is that for a thief in Dire the majority of its mitigation comes from dodges , stealths ports and resets. The dire armor gives some added survival for the times between. The Dire armor does nothing against other condition builds.

Dire and TB are not an issue. Claiming it so is very much like all of the people complaining that Ghost Thief was a result of trapper runes.

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Posted by: anduriell.6280

anduriell.6280

…Its just qq, condi isnt broken, people just dont know how to play against it. It does 0 damage when resistance on(list your resistance sources) …

And what are those sources of resistance? Because on how this superpro player is saying it seems every single player in game has access to 20 seconds of resistance every 30 and 20 seconds full immunity every 30 again.

Like we all play guarriors or something…

The devs need to get rid of soft condis from auto attacks, and make toughness a condi damage mitigation stat as well.

i can’t agree there. toughness should not mitigate both type of damage or we are in risk to create supertanks with strong damage mitigation to everything.

i say to use healing power to mitigate condition damage (duration not affected) a 1% every 100 points.

And condition damage should do less damage by stack the more stacks a player has on him. So 1 stack does full damage but 10th does (for example) 10% of the full damage.

“Weak” conditions like bleeds or poisson could have less damage reduction and bursty conditions like burning, confusion or torment could have much lower softcap.

So while a 10th bleed stack could mean a damage reduction of 50% for that stack, it could mean a reduction of 90% for burning.

Thus there could be some softlimits to condi bombs and not be an instakill.

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(edited by anduriell.6280)

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing. The only difference is that direct damage is immediate… not the condi one … why so much hate to condition builds ? try it and you will see that they are strong but they have also their weaknesses.

If that were the case, there wouldn’t be an issue. Consider engineers—their condi is tied to specific skills and dodging the skill results in dodging the condi damage. So, in effect, they have much higher damage on their skills than comparable power builds but the damage happens overtime, can be cleansed early and ignores defense. No one complains about condi engineers.

Now, look at mesmers. They inflict Confusion when they blind. They AoE blind when they shatter. They blind when they block or evade. They have several blocks/evades and the ability to reset those CDs. Shatter skills inflict Confusion and Torment. One inflicts Confusion as a base as well. Shatters happen over a period of time as each clone reaches the target, making it often impossible to dodge each one. Add Runes of Perplexity to that (inflict Confusion when struck) and you have a build that inflicts huge stacks of condis that cannot be mitigated by dodging attacks and are made worse by actually trying to fight.

Oh, and recall that Confusion/Torment deal the most damage out of all condis so long as your opponent is either moving or using skills. So unless you’re fighting a potato, you get huge damage coefficients essentially for free. They can’t, realistically, stop moving or using skills.

Then, on top of that, add copious amounts of stealth, blinks and gear with high defensive stats that does not sacrifice damage. The result is a class that hardly shows up to the fight and is impossible or very difficult to dodge against that also punishes you for taking any action whatsoever.

That’s going to be a pain in the ass to fight against even if you somehow “balance” it by using good numbers. It is low-risk, high-reward at its finest.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

-snip-

Damage numbers aren’t really the issue. The issue is when DOT can be as effective (if not more) than DPS while also having full Dire, or Trailblazer gear equipped.

I guess to put it in perspective- imagine a power class at 50% crit chance and 200% crit damage wearing wanderer gear.

Well, considering the “effectivity” is, for a significant part, a matter of damage numbers, then my points aren’t discarded at all. To put it into perspective, don’t compare speed and position, when you’re actually trying to study movement.

As long as the discussion will focus on specific stats, specific synergies, or professions, then it won’t lead anywhere.

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Posted by: Nikkinella.8254

Nikkinella.8254

A naked warrior with zero armor or weapons will have close to the same total vitality as a thief kitted in Dire. A warrior can kit out to get 3k+ armor and more health then that thief in dire while still having a high crit rate and ferocity , this in a power build.

Yet power builds can generate enough power to kill the same.

Why is it that a thief or Mesmer in Dire suddenly an issue? If you generate enough power to kill said warrior, you have enough to kill said thief. The fact is that for a thief in Dire the majority of its mitigation comes from dodges , stealths ports and resets. The dire armor gives some added survival for the times between. The Dire armor does nothing against other condition builds.

Dire and TB are not an issue. Claiming it so is very much like all of the people complaining that Ghost Thief was a result of trapper runes.

Warrior is just incredibly broken now so i don’t think its very fair to use one OP class to defend things that are broken on other classes. Conditions and just warriors in general need nerfs.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

A naked warrior with zero armor or weapons will have close to the same total vitality as a thief kitted in Dire. A warrior can kit out to get 3k+ armor and more health then that thief in dire while still having a high crit rate and ferocity , this in a power build.

Yet power builds can generate enough power to kill the same.

Why is it that a thief or Mesmer in Dire suddenly an issue? If you generate enough power to kill said warrior, you have enough to kill said thief. The fact is that for a thief in Dire the majority of its mitigation comes from dodges , stealths ports and resets. The dire armor gives some added survival for the times between. The Dire armor does nothing against other condition builds.

Dire and TB are not an issue. Claiming it so is very much like all of the people complaining that Ghost Thief was a result of trapper runes.

Warrior is just incredibly broken now so i don’t think its very fair to use one OP class to defend things that are broken on other classes. Conditions and just warriors in general need nerfs.

But I can KILL those “OP” warriors in that armor using a power thief. The point is they can have the same armor and more than a thief in dire and a power build can still kill them. I have also been on one of those warriors and been wrecked by other power builds.

Now I fully understand there some things are overtuned in the Condition AND the Power realms along with what can be called overtuned defensive specs, but they are nowhere near as broken as being claimed. Tweaking of very specific traits or skills is more in order then systemic revamps and no conditions are not “out of control”.

There IS a lot of getting outplayed going on here and there just too many people who have an inability to admit they are getting outplayed so immediately want to go the “it an OP spec” route.

It is a fact that I have killed people using a condition thief using one single application of conditions off my “condi-bomb”. It is also a fact that what I see after that bomb is the victim relying on a single condition cleanse. I can use that same bomb against another player of the same profession and it will have minimal effect simply because the latter has more cleanses specced and knows how best to use them.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Kilo.2539

Kilo.2539

-snip-

Damage numbers aren’t really the issue. The issue is when DOT can be as effective (if not more) than DPS while also having full Dire, or Trailblazer gear equipped.

I guess to put it in perspective- imagine a power class at 50% crit chance and 200% crit damage wearing wanderer gear.

Well, considering the “effectivity” is, for a significant part, a matter of damage numbers, then my points aren’t discarded at all. To put it into perspective, don’t compare speed and position, when you’re actually trying to study movement.

As long as the discussion will focus on specific stats, specific synergies, or professions, then it won’t lead anywhere.

In my original post I specifically talked about a “trade off” when going full DOT/DPS. If I can see through your sadness and hurt feelings I’m guessing you are trying to say that in terms of damage- DOT is not as effective as DPS and therefore justifies why condi classes can go full tank mode?

What is the risk and reward for going power? The reward is you smash people, the risk is you can get 2 shot by a rev auto attack.

What is the risk and reward for going condi? The reward is you can just stack massive amounts of condi and kite while being as tanky and trolly as the game will allow. There is no risk really.

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Posted by: PierPiero.9142

PierPiero.9142

If they ’d do that there would not be any condi build viable …. you could do that if you reduce direct damage of 10 times for each skill. Condi damage is time based …avoiding a condi burst or avoding a direct skill is the same thing…..

If that were the case, there wouldn’t be an issue. Consider engineers—their condi is tied to specific skills and dodging the skill results in dodging the condi damage. So, in effect, they have much higher damage on their skills than comparable power builds but the damage happens overtime, can be cleansed early and ignores defense. No one complains about condi engineers.

Now, look at mesmers. They inflict Confusion when they blind. They AoE blind when they shatter. They blind when they block or evade. They have several blocks/evades and the ability to reset those CDs. Shatter skills inflict Confusion and Torment. One inflicts Confusion as a base as well. Shatters happen over a period of time as each clone reaches the target, making it often impossible to dodge each one. Add Runes of Perplexity to that (inflict Confusion when struck) and you have a build that inflicts huge stacks of condis that cannot be mitigated by dodging attacks and are made worse by actually trying to fight.

Oh, and recall that Confusion/Torment deal the most damage out of all condis so long as your opponent is either moving or using skills. So unless you’re fighting a potato, you get huge damage coefficients essentially for free. They can’t, realistically, stop moving or using skills.

Then, on top of that, add copious amounts of stealth, blinks and gear with high defensive stats that does not sacrifice damage. The result is a class that hardly shows up to the fight and is impossible or very difficult to dodge against that also punishes you for taking any action whatsoever.

That’s going to be a pain in the ass to fight against even if you somehow “balance” it by using good numbers. It is low-risk, high-reward at its finest.

Condi engi was my mine since 2012.
The difference between condi mesmer and condi engineer , imho , is not in the “type or strength” of condition.
Condi engi can apply conditions in a better way than mesmer, more different conditions and really often. The strength of mesmer is the ability to kyte damage. I play both. With my mesmer is much easier to avoid enemy burst than with engineer and mesmer have a much better condi clean .
Condi engineer need precision so dire is not a great stat ,it is better rabid or wanderer but you have a much lower health pool so condi engi is much weaker against condi bomber . You don’t win fight with mesmer for its condition damage, usually you don’t melt people in second with condi mesmer. You win fight becouse you are able to kyte your enemy damage and so you can let your condi damage ( not really high to respect of burning of a condi engi , condi warrior or condi guardian ) to make his job.

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Posted by: UmbraNoctis.1907

UmbraNoctis.1907

What is the risk and reward for going condi? The reward is you can just stack massive amounts of condi and kite while being as tanky and trolly as the game will allow. There is no risk really.

The trade off for many condition builds is less utility/survivability from skills and traits, because they have to focus more on offense in form of condition application, since stats alone doesn’t provide them with any damage. A loss in mobility/defense/range and so on can be huge and is the main reason, why power is still better for most classes. Of course this doesn’t apply to all of them. Mesmer for example relies mostly on shatters for damage, which allows the use of defensive traits, weapons and utility skills, even in a condi build. This defense coupled with decent dmg is the main reason, why condi mesmer is so strong. Their damage and the tanky stats alone are not what makes them op.
And its not like power builds have to be super glassy. Most of them are actually quite tanky and far from “risky” to play, thanks to boons, passive procs and plenty of defensive skills.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

If I can see through your sadness and hurt feelings I’m guessing you are trying to say that in terms of damage- DOT is not as effective as DPS and therefore justifies why condi classes can go full tank mode?

Actually, no. I’m just saying that if you want to compare such effectivity, you need an appropriate modeling, in order to get reliable numbers. I’m not saying I have them here, and I’m really interested in having them, and even do some calculations.

What is the risk and reward for going power? The reward is you smash people, the risk is you can get 2 shot by a rev auto attack.

What is the risk and reward for going condi? The reward is you can just stack massive amounts of condi and kite while being as tanky and trolly as the game will allow. There is no risk really.

So… Roughly, the reward is the ability to stack damage in one case, and build stacks in the other. It makes no real sense. It’s just like saying “I can stack 75000 damage”. Of course you can. How much time will that take ? What openings for a damage mitgation are available for your oponent ? Answer this, and things become at the same time more accurate, and more interesting.

Just like above, people saying it’s not only a matter of armor and HP, with that warrior vs. thief discussion. It’s intersting : it shows it’s not only those numbers that matter.

I’m not saying “condi’s lame please neurf” or “powa is so OP plz nerf asap”. I’m just trying to figure out how those things work

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

Do you even know how epidemic works?[/quote]

Yes. I press the button that I have mapped for that skill and it applies its effect.

Gandara