Guild Wars 2

And/or new methods calculations. As it stands, ele warrior and engi are virtually immune to movement impairment when traited + runes and eating poultry lemongrass soup. Not to mention any condition lasting less than 3s.

And the condition duration decrease occurs AFTER condition duration increase has been added.

I know this is not new but its extremely cheesy and I always wondered why Anet’s balance team lets this slide.

Well, I think there is a cap. You can only decrease it by max 100%, if I am not mistaken. And, to prevent confusion, all modifiers for condition duration are calculated of the base duration. So if someone has 100% condition duration bonus and hits a target with decreased condition duration by 100%, it equals each other out and the condition will last their base duration.

The thing is though, condition based builds’ only drawback is that it can be cleansed or have it’s duration reduced. Condi doesn’t need power, precision, or ferocity and can instead go defensive with sets like carrion or dire that allow them to be strong tanks while being able to do massive damage through condition spam. And while I agree that classes like warrior shouldn’t be able to shed conditions the way it does, considering it’s movement capabilities and damage output, nerfing the minus duration % alone would only serve to buff condition based builds more.

That is the only way to counter the meta: sacrifice dps using runes of Melandru, food and traits to reduce the condition duration. Have you thought about everything they have to give up in order to do that?

Isn’t fair to the other classes for the conditions have a sort of soft cap or buff because a few other classes can be traited to be more efficient to counter it. As it is stands, you can be pretty much perma immobilized already. With that in mind, immobilization should never stack and the +40% of condition duration food needs a nerf. Those should be the fixes in order to balance things.

No to anything wanting to buff condis….

Khal Drogo.9631:

And the condition duration decrease occurs AFTER condition duration increase has been added.

Condition duration is resolved BEFORE the final calculation. For example if player A (+150% duration) hits player B (Negative 100%) with a 5 second base Burning the result is 7.5s of burning not zero.

Adding condition duration is easier on most builds than subtracting it. A warrior has two traits that can reduce mobility conditions, Dogged March and Mobile Strikes. Neither are OP since one is a modest adjustment to duration and the other is a major trait that only effects Immobilization.

Then there is the reality of the situation… condi at least in small sized fights is ridiculously powerful right now. Any change to make it more so would be game breaking for the few direct damage builds left.

King Amadaeus.8619:

No to anything wanting to buff condis….

This.

I think you wrote the title wrong mate… The title should be “Increasing Condi Duration needs a cap”

Condi user complaining? You just need +40% food to counter a trait + runes + food. I think we should rather complain about the OP +40% food.

+ condition duration and – condition duration cancel each other out.

azyume.6321:

That is the only way to counter the meta: sacrifice dps using runes of Melandru, food and traits to reduce the condition duration. Have you thought about everything they have to give up in order to do that?

Isn’t fair to the other classes for the conditions have a sort of soft cap or buff because a few other classes can be traited to be more efficient to counter it. As it is stands, you can be pretty much perma immobilized already. With that in mind, immobilization should never stack and the +40% of condition duration food needs a nerf. Those should be the fixes in order to balance things.

Honestly, I think it’s a good thing power builds are forced to sacrifice DPS and condition builds have their damage reduced through power builds using condition duration reduction runes/food.
Condition builds have a lot of tankyness and can deal high damage over time. Power builds are squishy but can kill a player quickly in 2 – 3 hits sometimes. But because a lot of people will use things that reduce condition duration, they’re not able to kill people in 2 – 3 hits and condition builds can’t overwhelm people. Which means both builds are taking more time to kill each other thus is balances out. Conditions can’t overwhelm you and power builds can’t kill you in 2seconds flat.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Honestly, I think it’s a good thing power builds are forced to sacrifice DPS and condition builds have their damage reduced through power builds using condition duration reduction runes/food.
Condition builds have a lot of tankyness and can deal high damage over time. Power builds are squishy but can kill a player quickly in 2 – 3 hits sometimes. But because a lot of people will use things that reduce condition duration, they’re not able to kill people in 2 – 3 hits and condition builds can’t overwhelm people. Which means both builds are taking more time to kill each other thus is balances out. Conditions can’t overwhelm you and power builds can’t kill you in 2seconds flat.

Problem is: Power damage is reduced by toughness. Condition damage don’t have a counter stat… Even with all the reduction you can get from melandru+lemongrass, Condition builds still have the upper hand as they still have a stat that counter your damage while you do not have a stat to counter theirs…

Jeknar.6184:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Honestly, I think it’s a good thing power builds are forced to sacrifice DPS and condition builds have their damage reduced through power builds using condition duration reduction runes/food.
Condition builds have a lot of tankyness and can deal high damage over time. Power builds are squishy but can kill a player quickly in 2 – 3 hits sometimes. But because a lot of people will use things that reduce condition duration, they’re not able to kill people in 2 – 3 hits and condition builds can’t overwhelm people. Which means both builds are taking more time to kill each other thus is balances out. Conditions can’t overwhelm you and power builds can’t kill you in 2seconds flat.

Problem is: Power damage is reduced by toughness. Condition damage don’t have a counter stat… Even with all the reduction you can get from melandru+lemongrass, Condition builds still have the upper hand as they still have a stat that counter your damage while you do not have a stat to counter theirs…

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Jeknar.6184:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Honestly, I think it’s a good thing power builds are forced to sacrifice DPS and condition builds have their damage reduced through power builds using condition duration reduction runes/food.
Condition builds have a lot of tankyness and can deal high damage over time. Power builds are squishy but can kill a player quickly in 2 – 3 hits sometimes. But because a lot of people will use things that reduce condition duration, they’re not able to kill people in 2 – 3 hits and condition builds can’t overwhelm people. Which means both builds are taking more time to kill each other thus is balances out. Conditions can’t overwhelm you and power builds can’t kill you in 2seconds flat.

Problem is: Power damage is reduced by toughness. Condition damage don’t have a counter stat… Even with all the reduction you can get from melandru+lemongrass, Condition builds still have the upper hand as they still have a stat that counter your damage while you do not have a stat to counter theirs…

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

Hamster.4861:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

butbutbut

A 7000 backstab hit on 1000 toughness (~2k armor) would hit 4667 on 2000 toughness and 1273 on 10000 toughness!

Those numbers are like almost identical!

Straegen.2938:

Khal Drogo.9631:

And the condition duration decrease occurs AFTER condition duration increase has been added.

Condition duration is resolved BEFORE the final calculation. For example if player A (+150% duration) hits player B (Negative 100%) with a 5 second base Burning the result is 7.5s of burning not zero.

Adding condition duration is easier on most builds than subtracting it. A warrior has two traits that can reduce mobility conditions, Dogged March and Mobile Strikes. Neither are OP since one is a modest adjustment to duration and the other is a major trait that only effects Immobilization.

Then there is the reality of the situation… condi at least in small sized fights is ridiculously powerful right now. Any change to make it more so would be game breaking for the few direct damage builds left.

Dogged March will only respond to the first time any 4 of those conditions hit as well, with a 10 second internal CD. It’s not listed on the wiki page and I think the CD wasn’t added to the trait’s tooltip until recently, so Dogged March isn’t the awesome be-all-end-all solution to movement conditions people make it out to be. I’ve shed it in favor of increased stance durations and rely solely on -condi food. I’m not ready to give up as much power as some others and going with Melandru runes just yet, but if I can get my precision balanced on my armor/trinkets to a comfortable level without Rune of the Pack, I’ll probably use Hoelbrak. And even then, still use the -condi food, because it feels like there’s just no other choice. As said, it’s far easier for someone to increase condition duration and damage than it is for someone to decrease it (and that’s another thing -- there is no -condi damage food, rune, or anything else -- the damage per tick can’t be reduced, only the amount of time that damage is done to you).

Increasing condi duration and damage needs a cap. How about that instead, so we’re all not forced into using the same food to counter it? Or sacrificing our direct damage by using Melandru runes? Direct damage dealers already had a nerf to critical damage through ferocity, we shouldn’t be forced into a corner with specific gear and nourishment simply to stay competitive against increasingly-powerful condi metas.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Increasing condi duration and damage needs a cap.

Condis are already capped at 100%. Personally I think the main problem lies with power builds that also utilize conditions, since they can’t really afford +duration, rendering alot their cc/vuln stacking/etc useless when they come across -duration. IMO all conditions should be guaranteed at least 1s.

My +100% condi duration ele says hi!

roamzero.9486:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Increasing condi duration and damage needs a cap.

Condis are already capped at 100%. Personally I think the main problem lies with power builds that also utilize conditions, since they can’t really afford +duration, rendering alot their cc/vuln stacking/etc useless when they come across -duration. IMO all conditions should be guaranteed at least 1s.

I said that as a play on the OP’s thread name.

The simple points I was trying to make were:

1) There are far less sacrifices that need to be made to achieve a high amount of condition duration and damage than there are to achieve less condition duration (nothing you can actually do to mitigate damage, so that’s the best we have).
2) Direct damage received a large nerf already from the ferocity change of an average of 15%, in some cases even higher.

Reducing the already-few ways of achieving -condition duration that we have right now? Insane.

edit: I will actually add this: gear, food, or rune bonuses that reduce condition damage, but not necessarily duration — leaving non-damaging conditions such as immobilize, chill, vuln, etc, intact. I would not be opposed to that at all.

DaveGan.8065:

Hamster.4861:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

butbutbut

A 7000 backstab hit on 1000 toughness (~2k armor) would hit 4667 on 2000 toughness and 1273 on 10000 toughness!

Those numbers are like almost identical!

Not spamming #2 repeatedly would be a good start to changing those numbers but, I won’t coach you since you’re clearly an expert.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Not spamming #2 repeatedly would be a good start to changing those numbers but, I won’t coach you since you’re clearly an expert.

You too seens to be a expert by calling Backstab the #2 skill…

He’s clearly rotating 5,2,1 cookie-cutter D/P

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

DaveGan.8065:

Hamster.4861:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Valid point, but in my experience it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 or a 10,000 toughness high DPS builds will cut through you like butter.

Wrong. learn about how armor works plz.

butbutbut

A 7000 backstab hit on 1000 toughness (~2k armor) would hit 4667 on 2000 toughness and 1273 on 10000 toughness!

Those numbers are like almost identical!

Not spamming #2 repeatedly would be a good start to changing those numbers but, I won’t coach you since you’re clearly an expert.

TIL toughness mechanics vary on skill used…

I suppose since you claim the damage kills you anyways I can run a more realistic representation of what you must be doing.

70000 damage from zergdiving with buffs or allies with 1000 toughness is 46667 damage with 2000 toughness and 12727 with 10000 toughness.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Dogged March will only respond to the first time any 4 of those conditions hit as well, with a 10 second internal CD.

The ICD only affects the regeneration buff. The -condition duration is a permanent effect.

Still no condi meta except for some fights with less than 5 on each side. Conditions are very powerful, yes. Annoying as well. Some builds are borderline stupid (aka faceroll press-1-to-win), but at the end of the day, it’s mostly power, hybrid, support and control builds which decide the fights for your team.

On that matter: +condition duration on some power builds is even more laughable: iLeap or Dark Pact immobilize with +40% duration, and you got a guaranteed down…

And then we’ve got some skills, traits and runes which don’t even need +duration to be totally broken in their base condition duration anyways, e.g. Hammer Shock, Impale, iCounter, Chill of Death, Incendiary Powder, Runes of Balthazar and so on.

This stuff is broken or borderline overpowered (even in power or hybrid builds), and I agree with everyone demanding a nerf to the + and – condition duration food, but there still is no condition meta in higher level WvW group roaming and PvP.

Just run condi duration runes + food + giver’s weapons. That’s what I do on all my condi builds. Condi duration +90%

When one of the most if not the most used foods in the game are condition removal based for non-condi classes, there is a problem with condition duration and it isn’t that they are too short.

Condi meta already forces warriors to run tankier than many of them would like.

The lack of focus on conditions at launch was one of the brighter spots. No one used – condition food at the beginning, now it’s a must have.

Chris.3290:

Condi meta already forces warriors to run tankier than many of them would like.

/laugh if you’d run more offensive stats, things would die even faster. If it wasn’t for stupid random-proc conditions from traits, runes and sigils, all classes (even your beloved warrior) would be able to mitigate much condition damage and effects by just playing smart. No need for -condition duration if you’d deal with condition stuff like you do with direct damage.

Chris.3290:

The lack of focus on conditions at launch was one of the brighter spots. No one used – condition food at the beginning, now it’s a must have.

I’m running Omnomberry Pie or Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew on most of my power-based builds because it benefits me more even against condition trolls. Lemongrass / Leek soup is great on melee tanks (especially in bigger groups) to reduce soft CC duration, but for offensive specs you’re better off with other food in most cases.

Conditions and condition management are both broken, yes (so are the + and – duration foods). Especially in 1vs1 up to – I’d say – 4vs4 in some compositions conditions can be the most efficient source of damage or method to guarantee damage, and if it is, it’s usually condition spam which is rather annoying (most condition builds don’t work too well if you try to use conditions wisely). I’m on the same boat here.
But just as stupid as all the on-proc condition stuff is (which are the source of most anti-condition discussions), this also applies to sigil of air and fire, which allow crits on auto attacks to make those more viable than most burst skills.

Still voting for reducing duration gain and reduction on food because they not only make condition spam builds even more efficient (they’re mostly annoying and we all know that players who play those builds don’t do so to play competively), but because they also allow for annoying lockdown for power-based builds (yeay, never ending immobilize, chill, cripple, poison and weakness!).

I’ll say it again as I’ve said it before. High direct damage build = dead condition damage build. Conditions have a wind up period, it takes a bit to apply a lot of them. If you’re running defensive stats you’re going to die because the longer you let the condition build stay alive the more lethal they become. As a power build, you have the option to burst them down quickly with high damage. Yes, most condition builds have high defenses but honestly as long as you’re not standing directly in all their AOE’s or trying to facetank all their conditions you should be able to kill them pretty quickly only having to suffer a few conditions along the way. Some conditions are unfortunately unavoidable, but if you get in their faces and pressure them they’re screwed.

Of course you cannot avoid all conditions. Any ones suggesting that should think about the meaning of that suggestion.

Also the claim that warriors, arguably with one of the best condition removals on a very short cool down, need to run condition reduction food appears rather funny to me. What some people want is immunity to conditions, but that ain’t balancing. As warriors are used to – on common roaming setups – being rather physical damage resistant, they want the same for conditions and don’t want to sacrifice on their offensive capabilities. But you can’t have everything.

@topic:
Condition duration modification (bonus and malus) is capped at 100% of base duration. There are some traits that are an exception, but for the majority it is true. So topic resolved?

Wait what? Are we really talking about WvW here?
In WvW T1~T2 fight, power is EVERYTHING!
They don’t have to wait and stack, they just swing their dirty hammers and try to march through you in 1 second and you’re laying on the ground.
They’re almost immune to condition too due to the number of AOE cleanse they have. Who said condition is OP then?

Well you have to differentiate: WvW mass fights (5+ players on either side) and small scale fights (4 or less on either side). In mass fights conditions are a joke and of almost no effect. You might still be able to use some CC conditions for 1 (or if you are insanely lucky 2) seconds. Other than that conditions deal next to no damage in those fights. In small scale fights it is a different story, where conditions can be very effective, especially when you hit the unsuspecting foe (hehe, see what I did there?).

All in all conditions are okayish in small scale fights, but need a rework, if they will ever be effective in mass fights. I mean the only reason to run conditions there is to tick some targets for the loot (I know some Mesmers who do that with glamor and confusion)…

Op what non-sense are blabbing on about do you even play wvw!

Jeknar.6184:

I think you wrote the title wrong mate… The title should be “Increasing Condi Duration needs a cap”

This.

Curunen.8729:

Jeknar.6184:

I think you wrote the title wrong mate… The title should be “Increasing Condi Duration needs a cap”

This.

LOL, this is equally biased as the OP’s view point.