Guild Wars 2

Simple, elegant, outright makes sense and would go a long way in solving some of the glaring issues in WvW.

In other words, not going to happen. Would you like Mercenary Camp Capping Mastery instead? Maybe some new Living Story nodes around Eternal Battlegrounds?

Your suggestion would hurt small groups too, not workable.

+1 100% agree with buzz.

Evernessince.8035:

Your suggestion would hurt small groups too, not workable.

It would, but it would hurt blobs more. Small groups do not run in all zerker gear afaik. Entire blobs on servers I have been up against run this because they can be instarezzed. Small guilds/groups know better than to run this gear.

The downed state should also be looked at, HP should be drastically reduced I think when downed, and the rallying mechanic reworked along with it. Downed state works fine as-is in PVE and sPvP, but it’s a horrible mechanic in WvW that punishes players that down enemies when outnumbered.

Autoport them to WP. Problem solved.

This is about fully dead players, not the downed state.

Good movement can allow an outnumbered group to gradually thin a large zerg’s ranks by focus fire and killing a few at a time, but it becomes meaningless when the rest of the zerg can just mass ressurect the dead in combat.

Evernessince.8035:

Your suggestion would hurt small groups too, not workable.

How will it hurt small group? In case you have mistaken, I am talking about defeated state, which is you are dead and not downed. Dead on the floor doing nothing. Beside, most small group are comped up and they know what they are doing, moving together and blasting for sustain. They hardly die unless it is for perm immob/stupid positioning. A good small organized group will thin the blob numbers by killing a few of them at a times, while regrouping for health and buff. But it’ll be pointless if the blob can get back up in a fight due to mass ress on defeated players.

roamzero.9486:

The downed state should also be looked at, HP should be drastically reduced I think when downed, and the rallying mechanic reworked along with it. Downed state works fine as-is in PVE and sPvP, but it’s a horrible mechanic in WvW that punishes players that down enemies when outnumbered.

Downed state is fine imo. The main perpetrator is a defeated player being ress over and over again. In a small group, you can’t mass ress your player since you are 20v60-80. Ain’t small group got time for that, but for a blob of 60-80, it is easy for them. While 60 of them are fighting the 20 man small group, the other can go and ress their defeated player. This is a big issue here, since not only you have to fight a blob of 80, but those blob have a kittening extra lives. And mathematically speaking, with the aoe cap and kitten, you will never ever one shot a blob of 80 with a 20 man group. It is just not possible. You need to thin them little by little, but this won’t work if people will just get back up from a defeated state.

Autoport them to WP. Problem solved.

Then it’ll hurt me a lot since I always make a fail jump and die by falling damage :\

OP is absolutely right.

The fact that you can resurrect dead players right there in the middle of a siege, even with arrow carts bombarding you, and with 4 players it only takes a few seconds, makes blobs almost entirely unkillable.

It’s by far the most insulting mechanic for undermanned server.

But ANets inability to see their flaws on their own mechanics probably means this will never change.

Dee Jay.2460:

OP is absolutely right.

The fact that you can resurrect dead players right there in the middle of a siege, even with arrow carts bombarding you, and with 4 players it only takes a few seconds, makes blobs almost entirely unkillable.

It’s by far the most insulting mechanic for undermanned server.

But ANets inability to see their flaws on their own mechanics probably means this will never change.

Glad more people agreeing with this, I just hope Anet will take this into consideration, because I don’t see any other way for an undermanned server to face a 80 man blob…unless they want players to transfer to T1 server so they’ll generate more income. If so, well played Anet.

Sounds good to me. I would also be down for removing downed state. I just don’t get the whole I downed you now I have to spike you twice taking ages giving the blob forever to rally you. The whole I downed you and you just mist form back to your blob for a rally over and over and over again ya that’s great mechanics.

Defeated player can be rezzed only out of combat. That sounds good.

I can support this change, would solve a lot of things.

And while we’re at it; Players should only be able to reach downed state 2 times while being in combat. The third time they are downed, they would die instantly. Couple this with OPs suggestion, and roaming/havoc groups would actually stand a chance against the big blob (Plus, it would make 1vX fights a lot more manageable).

Now all we need is a dev to see this thread and read it.

+1 with defeated players only being resurrected OOC. Leave downed state as is.

just so you know when you try and res someone dead in combat its actually ressing slower then out of combat. 50ish health in combat 250ish ooc. Besides that build about 4 Superior AC’s and just keep firing down at the dead bodies. almost impossible to res someone through that.

Awesome idea, Buzzcrave, i love that. especially since it’s not just the usual whining about downed state. should be implemented as soon as possible.

also, how about not allowing ppl to ress in enemy territory, like inside keeps/towers/camps?

Get rid of downed state from pvp as a whole it has no place here.

But ill take whatever i can get.

This isnt a bad idea at all, could also make dead bodies not able to ress for xx min after dying, each time u die again it will increase in time, or simply a penalty after 3 deaths causing u to ress at a WP only

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

That sometimes works, but when you are outnumbered like some of the bronze leauge EU servers(and I imagine US servers) there are so many in comparison that only some siege would work.
Even than combat rez could be disabled in Borderlands first to see if people would like it. I’m pretty sure some will hate it because it requires a different style of fighting in many cases.

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

You already defeated that player, why continue to have to waste your cooldowns? Especially if you’re already outnumbered.

RashanDale.3609:

Awesome idea, Buzzcrave, i love that. especially since it’s not just the usual whining about downed state. should be implemented as soon as possible.

also, how about not allowing ppl to ress in enemy territory, like inside keeps/towers/camps?

Offair.2563:

This isnt a bad idea at all, could also make dead bodies not able to ress for xx min after dying, each time u die again it will increase in time, or simply a penalty after 3 deaths causing u to ress at a WP only

I like both ideas, but those will be too hardcore or a few step further than what I suggested and they are against what Anet wanted, which is catering the casuals. Sad to think of it that way, but we just need to give a suggestion that are acceptable by the dev. Making defeated player can be ress only out of combat does sound about right to me.

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

Hahaha, this is cute. I don’t mean to be rude but it is. Do you realize I am talking about outnumbered small organize group against a whole map queue? No matter how organize/skillful a small group may be, they can not one shot a map queue blob, because of aoe cap. With that being said, the only way to kill a map queue is by thinning them piece by piece. Problem is, when you are killing 1/4 of the blob, the other 2/4 will try to ress the ones that are in defeated state(the remaining 1/4 of the blob). When that happen, the small group will still be at huge disadvantage, no matter how many time they kill the blob, they’ll come back instantly through mass ress.

If they run back from spawn, then it’ll be fine since they won’t be in combat for a few minutes=easier for the small skillful group. But with the way mass ressing defeated players now, it is just impossible to do so.

Yes the situation is rather ludicrous… someone remind what the point of downed state was again? The whole system of downed state/rallying in PVP zones creates nothing but problems and is nothing but a vehicle for stupid finisher sales. Profits > gameplay quality right?

I digress. IMO, at bare minimum for WVW, entering defeated state should force a respawn after 30secs, and you shouldn’t be able to rez defeated players in combat.

Players need tools to assist them to disrupt/outplay mindless zerging, and with the current system, no amount of skilful play can counter a numerically superior side from continually rezzing their fallen over and over.

I hasten to add this has been highlighted as a problem by players since beta.

Why do you think this would discourage zerging? People will not want to die so they group tighter to avoid being spiked down by AoE and zealous thieves. Thus more zerging. Then the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back. What about 5-man teams? If one of them goes down it can throw a comp out of wack. Now they either have to die to respawn or run away from the fight instead of finishing off the remaining enemy and rezzing up their teammate.

Evernessince.8035:

Your suggestion would hurt small groups too, not workable.

The larger group benefits from rezzing defeated players far more than it ever benefits the smaller group.

The overmanned server will instantly know they have the advantage. Didn’t anyone pick this up?

Downstate doesnt belong in pvp or wvw

Tibstrike.2974:

the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back.

this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.

Sam Gem.1246:

The overmanned server will instantly know they have the advantage. Didn’t anyone pick this up?

um, they already have the advantage?

Tibstrike.2974:

Why do you think this would discourage zerging? People will not want to die so they group tighter to avoid being spiked down by AoE and zealous thieves. Thus more zerging. Then the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back. What about 5-man teams? If one of them goes down it can throw a comp out of wack. Now they either have to die to respawn or run away from the fight instead of finishing off the remaining enemy and rezzing up their teammate.

clint.5681:

Downstate doesnt belong in pvp or wvw

Guys, I am talking about DEFEATED STATE which is this:

http://bluescreenofawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GuildWars2-Death.png

Not DOWNED STATE which is this:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/T9NMgKOlWrU/maxresdefault.jpg

Please know the difference!!!

scerevisiae.1972:

this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.

This guy get it. Seriously, people please read. We’re talking about DEFEATED STATE not DOWNED STATE.

Excellent idea. But I think it should go further. It’s not hard for out of combat rezzing to keep blob unkillable. I think once a player is dead, they should be intantly teleported back to the starting waypoint.

Also I think they should slow the rezzing of down state players to the same speed as rezzing a dead player in combat (applies only to WvW). Whenever I fight outmanned it’s too hard to finish a player off when their teammates can pick them up so fast.

This is something that should have been in WvW since the get go, absolutely no resurrecting while your in combat. The only players this will hurt are those that have trouble keeping themselves alive.

While agree this is absolutely a must for defeated state, I think this also needs to be done for downed state as well. It could implement an entirely different strategy by having a few people staying out of combat specifically to rez downed players.

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

I agree with this guy.
Although I also agree with the OP to a certain degree, I don’t feel that it’s that big of an issue. Usually if someone is downed they’re finished. If someone tries to res them they’ll be nuked with AOE’s and give up within a few seconds. I’ve only ever encountered this being a problem a handfull of times. For the most part the dead will stay dead for a short while before WPing unless they’re really selfish and stay dead waiting to be ressed getting people killed in the process.
If anything the dead are hurting the allies and helping the enemy. All the people trying to res the dead end up getting dead themselves by pushing their luck.
Still, I agree to an extent. I’m just saying that unless it’s 10 to 1 odds, it’s rarely a problem. Otherwise the dead will just be bombed with AOE’s and the people trying to res them will be swarmed by anyone who’s paying attention.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

I agree with this guy.
Although I also agree with the OP to a certain degree, I don’t feel that it’s that big of an issue. Usually if someone is downed they’re finished. If someone tries to res them they’ll be nuked with AOE’s and give up within a few seconds. I’ve only ever encountered this being a problem a handfull of times. For the most part the dead will stay dead for a short while before WPing unless they’re really selfish and stay dead waiting to be ressed getting people killed in the process.
If anything the dead are hurting the allies and helping the enemy. All the people trying to res the dead end up getting dead themselves by pushing their luck.
Still, I agree to an extent. I’m just saying that unless it’s 10 to 1 odds, it’s rarely a problem. Otherwise the dead will just be bombed with AOE’s and the people trying to res them will be swarmed by anyone who’s paying attention.

OP idea is addressing a small group vs a zerg. Not zerg vs zerg, in which case what you say is true. But OP idea is to help make it possible so smaller group can wither the large group down to eventually defeating them with better skills.

Doon.2364:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

kingcragus.6810:

OR you could learn to interrupt people.

I agree with this guy.
Although I also agree with the OP to a certain degree, I don’t feel that it’s that big of an issue. Usually if someone is downed they’re finished. If someone tries to res them they’ll be nuked with AOE’s and give up within a few seconds. I’ve only ever encountered this being a problem a handfull of times. For the most part the dead will stay dead for a short while before WPing unless they’re really selfish and stay dead waiting to be ressed getting people killed in the process.
If anything the dead are hurting the allies and helping the enemy. All the people trying to res the dead end up getting dead themselves by pushing their luck.
Still, I agree to an extent. I’m just saying that unless it’s 10 to 1 odds, it’s rarely a problem. Otherwise the dead will just be bombed with AOE’s and the people trying to res them will be swarmed by anyone who’s paying attention.

OP idea is addressing a small group vs a zerg. Not zerg vs zerg, in which case what you say is true. But OP idea is to help make it possible so smaller group can wither the large group down to eventually defeating them with better skills.

Thank you for understanding. Now, if only Anet Dev will read this thread!

Personally, I’ve never had an issue with the downed state in WvW/PvP as it does add that aspect of being able to rally which can be intense as your last sliver of health is almost gone and then someone you attacked dies and bam you’re back in the game. As for preventing resing while in combat, I still have never really had an issue with it. Combat ressing does favor the larger group, but then being a larger group is always going to have its advantages so I doubt it would have as much impact on a 20vs50-80 battle. More impact though in a 50-80vs50-80 battle I would think. I imagine though players will just start playing a lesser variety of classes and builds, and all just go facerolling tank and how boring would that be? I’ve personally enjoyed many battles that raged on for minutes because both sides were evenly matched and evenly resurrecting downed friends and it just made it seem so much more epic to see which side would come out on top.

The whole ‘breaking the zerg’ concept is itself a broken idea. The game was designed to be a zerging game, even in PvE. The only places where the game isn’t designed for zerging is PvP, dungeons, fractals, and storyline instances. Ok, well a lot of PvE can be done without a zerg, but nothing prevents it, plus the mega boss battles are purely zerg oriented. It’s not like they designed Tequatl such that both his left and right foot have to be attacked simultaneously, along with his head and tail in order to defeat him or to have any other tactic other than stack up, buff, 1,1,1,1,1,1, timewarp…etc.

What would be better than breaking the zerg model itself would be to redesign WvW such that players aren’t solely in charge of balancing how many players there on each WvW team. i.e. a system that evenly distributes WvW guilds and players between teams for the duration of each matchup or season, based on gathered WvW statistics, players’ normal WvW playing times, and so on. Then at least teams would be a bit more intelligently balanced in size, and theoretically also in skill. At that time, teams not wishing to go all one big blob could still break up into smaller teams while those wanting to blob up still can. Which tactic comes out on top would still be up to the players themselves, but at least some programmatic effort could be made to help ensure both sides have nearly equal numbers of equal skilled players across all time zones.

@CattivoUomo, it’s not a bout breaking the zerg. I think that would be impossible. But it’s about giving the outnumbered servers a fighting chance. It’s allows small hit & run teams to start chipping away backline of frontline from the zerg to even the odds.
Will it work? Who knows but right now everything favours the zerg so we might want to try to change some stuff.

aspirine.6852:

@CattivoUomo, it’s not a bout breaking the zerg. I think that would be impossible. But it’s about giving the outnumbered servers a fighting chance. It’s allows small hit & run teams to start chipping away backline of frontline from the zerg to even the odds.
Will it work? Who knows but right now everything favours the zerg so we might want to try to change some stuff.

I see what you’re saying, but I’d rather prefer there be focus on reducing, if not eliminating outnumbered servers in the first place by balancing teams at the start of each matchup/season. With equal sized teams, the issue of combat resurrection becomes a moot point, in my opinion. The chip away concept sounds good in theory, but I doubt it will really be effective since zergs generally don’t stop or do an about-face to res anyone at the trailing end of the zerg. Now maybe if they are turning and churning inside a keep or tower they would, but in that event no significantly smaller zerg would even remotely have a chance, such that combat resurrection would again become a moot point. The best battles I’ve seen have been equally matched teams with both sides killing and resurrecting equally until eventually one side finally was able to turn the tide. I just feel the battles will end up shorter and less epic if combat resurrection is disabled. Even then, I just don’t see it helping outnumbered teams enough to be worthwhile. Zergs will just roflstomp any significantly smaller group and dance on their corpses afterwards.

Downed state =! defeated state plz plz plz stop talking about downed frickin state.

Or about balancing populations. That’s kind of a hard problem to solve. This sounds easier, not that I know if they programmed in some way where this can’t be implemented. But surely still easier than convincing zerglings to stop transferring to whoever is #1 at the time.

CattivoUomo.7198:

Personally, I’ve never had an issue with the downed state in WvW/PvP as it does add that aspect of being able to rally which can be intense as your last sliver of health is almost gone and then someone you attacked dies and bam you’re back in the game. As for preventing resing while in combat, I still have never really had an issue with it. Combat ressing does favor the larger group, but then being a larger group is always going to have its advantages so I doubt it would have as much impact on a 20vs50-80 battle. More impact though in a 50-80vs50-80 battle I would think. I imagine though players will just start playing a lesser variety of classes and builds, and all just go facerolling tank and how boring would that be? I’ve personally enjoyed many battles that raged on for minutes because both sides were evenly matched and evenly resurrecting downed friends and it just made it seem so much more epic to see which side would come out on top.

The whole ‘breaking the zerg’ concept is itself a broken idea. The game was designed to be a zerging game, even in PvE. The only places where the game isn’t designed for zerging is PvP, dungeons, fractals, and storyline instances. Ok, well a lot of PvE can be done without a zerg, but nothing prevents it, plus the mega boss battles are purely zerg oriented. It’s not like they designed Tequatl such that both his left and right foot have to be attacked simultaneously, along with his head and tail in order to defeat him or to have any other tactic other than stack up, buff, 1,1,1,1,1,1, timewarp…etc.

What would be better than breaking the zerg model itself would be to redesign WvW such that players aren’t solely in charge of balancing how many players there on each WvW team. i.e. a system that evenly distributes WvW guilds and players between teams for the duration of each matchup or season, based on gathered WvW statistics, players’ normal WvW playing times, and so on. Then at least teams would be a bit more intelligently balanced in size, and theoretically also in skill. At that time, teams not wishing to go all one big blob could still break up into smaller teams while those wanting to blob up still can. Which tactic comes out on top would still be up to the players themselves, but at least some programmatic effort could be made to help ensure both sides have nearly equal numbers of equal skilled players across all time zones.

Which of any of my post stated that I am talking about downed state? kittening read for kitten sake.

Players should always be able to Rez dead allies who are safely behind tower or castle walls. If the gate is closed and the walls are up, that person should be ressurectable.

Buzzcrave.6197:

Tibstrike.2974:

Why do you think this would discourage zerging? People will not want to die so they group tighter to avoid being spiked down by AoE and zealous thieves. Thus more zerging. Then the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back. What about 5-man teams? If one of them goes down it can throw a comp out of wack. Now they either have to die to respawn or run away from the fight instead of finishing off the remaining enemy and rezzing up their teammate.

clint.5681:

Downstate doesnt belong in pvp or wvw

Guys, I am talking about DEFEATED STATE which is this:

http://bluescreenofawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GuildWars2-Death.png

Not DOWNED STATE which is this:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/T9NMgKOlWrU/maxresdefault.jpg

Please know the difference!!!

scerevisiae.1972:

this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.

This guy get it. Seriously, people please read. We’re talking about DEFEATED STATE not DOWNED STATE.

I was talking about defeated state. Stop yelling. Why punish people in a 5-man group that get unlucky? Nothing you have suggested would make this game any better. It would make what you wish to stop, which is zerging, to be even more prevalent as the risk of death decreases greatly with the more people you run.

Tibstrike.2974:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Tibstrike.2974:

Why do you think this would discourage zerging? People will not want to die so they group tighter to avoid being spiked down by AoE and zealous thieves. Thus more zerging. Then the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back. What about 5-man teams? If one of them goes down it can throw a comp out of wack. Now they either have to die to respawn or run away from the fight instead of finishing off the remaining enemy and rezzing up their teammate.

clint.5681:

Downstate doesnt belong in pvp or wvw

Guys, I am talking about DEFEATED STATE which is this:

http://bluescreenofawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GuildWars2-Death.png

Not DOWNED STATE which is this:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/T9NMgKOlWrU/maxresdefault.jpg

Please know the difference!!!

scerevisiae.1972:

this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.

This guy get it. Seriously, people please read. We’re talking about DEFEATED STATE not DOWNED STATE.

I was talking about defeated state. Stop yelling. Why punish people in a 5-man group that get unlucky? Nothing you have suggested would make this game any better. It would make what you wish to stop, which is zerging, to be even more prevalent as the risk of death decreases greatly with the more people you run.

This guys already answered your question, and yet you still refuse to read it.

scerevisiae.1972:

this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.

You said my idea will be bad for small group, but no it won’t. A good 5 man roaming group should know when to engage/disengage, and most of the good 5 man roaming group won’t let their member to be in “defeated state”. They will ress their member on “downed state”, thus making w/e you said is moot(Look at RIOT, hardly any of their video let their member be in defeated state, they will try their best to ress their downed state members). Beside, like what scerevisiae said, it’ll be better for the 5 man if this change is implemented. What will the 5 man not want is for the people they killed get up again thus making it an unending fight. It’ll be pointless if the enemy they kill are able to get up from “defeated state” over and over again just because the enemy have superior number to fight them while ressing their “defeated players”.

+1 I have suggested this before. I’m glad you brought it back up. I hope Anet catches on.

At the same time I also suggested a change to the rally mechanic where in order to rally off a death you must have contributed X% or more damage to that enemy.

So if you go down due to 20 people tagging you none of them will be able to rally if you die because they didn’t do enough damage %, however the smaller group you have the more individual % you contribute to each death meaning higher chance to rally. This change would shift the rally mechanic towards helping the smaller group compete.

it wouldn’t hurt smaller groups because no small group has time in combat to rez a defeated player anyway. if you’re that small you need to be fighting not rezzing. if your enemy is weak enough that you can afford to rez a defeated player, then how the hell did the player die to begin with?

Exactly! Beside that, you’ve already killed a player, spike him in downed state, making him kissing the floor in defeated state and now you need to kill the same player just because your enemy blob is 2-4 times bigger than your numbers that it let them to mass ress those defeated players in the middle of a fight. Does that really make sense?

Now,in TPVP,if u get totally defeated, you cannot be ressed by others and you will auto warp to WP after the spawn timer is up.

Can apply the same concept, once defeated,you cannot be ressed and you will teleport to default map starting WP in 5 seconds. Just enough time to look at your loot on the ground,haha!

I agree with this, Not being able to res in combat will benefit wvw and bring in more players who dislike zerging!