Guild Wars 2

Ballistic.2570:

I dislike DBL and avoid playing there if at all possible. It’s really difficult to navigate and if you die in a fight there is no way you’re getting back to the tag.

It also seems really PvE heavy. Like the person who designed it had no interest in big fights. Seige Wars is not my idea of a good time, unless I want to go semi AFK while listening to music on a night capping crew.

I play WvW for intense Zerg/Blob fights and in my experience they are in short supply on DBL.

Wow, this is truly from someone who doesn’t know the DBL at all. DBL is so easy to get around compared to when it first came out that it makes me shake my head when people say how hard it is. If you spend as much time in there exploring it and running around as you do disliking it you would find it’s not as bad as you first thought. It’s actually quite a fun map to run on once you know it

Aphs.9528:

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Maybe that’s true on your server… but not on my server. There are LOTS of us who voted for and play DBL all the time. It’s also my preferred BL to play on. And the folks I’m talking about are those that are over 1k wxp. I myself have almost 3k wxp and play on DBL almost exclusively. It’s not dead.. Not insane like the other bl’s (most of the time) but certainly not dead.

Which server?

I get that some people like it, hell there are some parts of DBL i like as well, but pick any matchup and just look at the stats. The majority may have some time ago voted for DBL but the small minority is what is playing on it. It unbalances MU’s and the dislike of it or the poor design of it is not going to change anytime soon.

Decado.9304:

It unbalances MU’s and the dislike of it or the poor design of it is not going to change anytime soon.

Like that matters when “balance” in matchups is basically a joke due to population/coverage differences. (And beyond that if DBL is considered an advantage to the home server because players avoid it, then if DBL is given to the weakest server that is part of balance)

Yes, because some things are broken and need fixing then we might aswell break more stuff. Pro logic

Decado.9304:

Yes, because some things are broken and need fixing then we might aswell break more stuff. Pro logic

Except one it isn’t broken (or is conveniently ignoring the part I wrote in brackets part of your “pro logic”), and two those of us with an actual grasp of logic realise it is utterly insignificant in terms of balance compared to the population/coverage aspect, so is basically neither here nor there unless they fix the real problem, but you keep concentrating on irrelevant minor issues that change nothing, you should apply for a job at Anet, you’d fit right in with that “logic”.

I ignored that because its a poor argument, i have frequently seen the Red team ignore homebl completely giving the advantage to the stronger servers. Either way doesn’t promote or help balance or good MU’s and players for the most part will continue to ignore this map

And just because I have argued that breaking more stuff is bad doesn’t mean I don’t know server linking and population spread are the no1 problems affecting decent MU’s but you go ahead and assume I don’t want that resolved first and foremost. I, like most, have the capacity to consider large and small issues at the same time

I’m not saying either BL is better, but anyone who says the two BLs are even closely balanced is a joke.

In DBL:
Towers serves absolutely no strategic importance on the map (beside sitting there ppting away because home server cbf taking it back).

Cliffs artificially expanded the size of the map, which exaggerates the feeling of the BL being deserted due to low population. Also MORE WALKING especially in a map that rarely finds anyone already… Cliffs also created more choke points, except this choke point makes you fall off cliffs, which to a lot of people is not fun. Oh, and did I mention the kitten gimmick that blows people off cliffs for absolute no reason…?

Perma stealth zergs with protection and swiftness!

The lord of every objectives are significantly harder to fight.. (PVE so hard). Not a lot of people like to deal with lords that jumps around, makes unnecessary barriers, frequent hard hitting CC, while fighting with reds to capture a keep.

I’m sure there are a lot more… But don’t bother since this won’t be read anyways

I love the DBL and play with many people who do as well. Alpine is so old. 4.5 years old. Same with EB. Many of the folks I play with don’t like EB due to the blobs and all the pugs who won’t get in TS or squad and suck. DBL has lots of interesting places to go and fight. It’s very fast to get around the map, way faster than ABL. If you don’t know this, then you don’t know the map at all.

ABL and EB need to go and be replaced with new maps. It’s coming up on 5 years playing on the same map. But Anet needs to learn from it’s mistakes with DBL and the horrid roll out. Actually, with the current population, there should just be 3 tri-balanced maps of varying sizes. But that’s another topic.

BTW, there’s a ton of bullkitten in this thread where a few individuals somehow know how everyone on every server thinks. There was a ton of feedback on DBL, and more than one poll. Get over it.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I love the DBL and play with many people who do as well. Alpine is so old. 4.5 years old. Same with EB. Many of the folks I play with don’t like EB due to the blobs and all the pugs who won’t get in TS or squad and suck. DBL has lots of interesting places to go and fight. It’s very fast to get around the map, way faster than ABL. If you don’t know this, then you don’t know the map at all.

ABL and EB need to go and be replaced with new maps. It’s coming up on 5 years playing on the same map. But Anet needs to learn from it’s mistakes with DBL and the horrid roll out. Actually, with the current population, there should just be 3 tri-balanced maps of varying sizes. But that’s another topic.

BTW, there’s a ton of bullkitten in this thread where a few individuals somehow know how everyone on every server thinks. There was a ton of feedback on DBL, and more than one poll. Get over it.

Yea, you’re right, because after tons of feedbacks and polls, DBL is now the universally loved map that absolutely no one has issues with either objectively or subjectively. DBL is a highly populated, shiny new map that everyone prefers over EB and APL. Furthermore, unlike EB, DBL has no blobs and all the pugs will get on TS or squad and is absolutely fantastic, it’s true. Due to the great commitment and dedication of our fellow server comrades, we control every shrine absolutely all the time.

Kills made in total on Borderlands are roughly 40% : 40% : 20%, that alone shows its not populated anywhere near the Alpine map.

and yes Alpine is stale and old however it does have decent balance. The DBL whilst having some nice points and ideas does not have good balance and it is certainly not much faster to move around than Alpine. Certain parts are, if you hold shrines etc and make use of the jumppads or flying portals but then someone flips a camp or shrine and you’re screwed.

I feel like some people here are really screwed over by bad server/wvw populations more than just the DBL itself.

Take a look at wvwintel.com
Pick a server, check kill/death ratio on desert bl compared to other maps.
Theres ur proof that no one goes to desert.

edit: or maybe it is because it is so massive that no one ever finds an enemy on the map?

Most of the kills on DBL happen because servers HAVE TO try to reset things or all other maps are queued for guilds. I saw like 3 commanders go dbl just to see them say never again this week

Also we have occasionally blob vs blobs near south camp of desert border if they happen to be between blue and green servers, which means we dont even touch objectives. That also makes it seem so that someone actually goes there.

but tbf, alpine is not that popular either anymore because all the siege, guild, autoupgrade stuff. even if you reset something it will be t3 again in 3 hours. Its basically hold SM and you win matchups

but yeah while I had lot of good fights in desert borders, 3 alpine borders would be better, just because it is faster and more frequent to find those ^^

Decado.9304:

I ignored that because its a poor argument, i have frequently seen the Red team ignore homebl completely giving the advantage to the stronger servers.

Apparently we play different games, because the PPT heroes on the servers I play on consider the DB map an advantage.

Decado.9304:

Either way doesn’t promote or help balance or good MU’s and players for the most part will continue to ignore this map

In a situation where the teams are not balanced in the slightest it provides more balance than if all 3 borders were the same, like the handicap system in golf provides balance and matches would be more imbalanced if everyone played on an equal basis.

Decado.9304:

have the capacity to consider large and small issues at the same time

It is pretty pointless considering the small thing when it changes nothing (and could in fact exacerbate the balance disparity), unless the big thing, the actual problem is addressed, it is like changing a punctured tyre on a car with no engine and there is no prospect of the car getting an engine, pointless.

But then frankly I guess the whole discussion is pointless, after all you are talking about a company who decided to basically fix the poll when it seemed the poll over the DB map was going the “wrong way” by making a post threatening that if it was voted out there would be no more WvW maps, so the chances of them ever removing it seem pretty slim given that “professional” attitude.

zinkz.7045:

It is pretty pointless considering the small thing when it changes nothing (and could in fact exacerbate the balance disparity), unless the big thing, the actual problem is addressed, it is like changing a punctured tyre on a car with no engine and there is no prospect of the car getting an engine, pointless.

except this is Anet and fixing the small problems with band-aid solutions is what they do rather than addressing the main issues like population balance. Given the choice i’d rather be stuck with DBL and have population spread fixed without a doubt but without that being done I think 3 alpine is a much preferably situation

Decado.9304:

zinkz.7045:

It is pretty pointless considering the small thing when it changes nothing (and could in fact exacerbate the balance disparity), unless the big thing, the actual problem is addressed, it is like changing a punctured tyre on a car with no engine and there is no prospect of the car getting an engine, pointless.

except this is Anet and fixing the small problems with band-aid solutions is what they do rather than addressing the main issues like population balance. Given the choice i’d rather be stuck with DBL and have population spread fixed without a doubt but without that being done I think 3 alpine is a much preferably situation

I don’t get the mentality of “Anet needs to fix population.”

How is population anywhere remotely Anet’s fault? Players choose their server. Players choose to transfer servers. Players choose what time of day/night they primarily play. Players choose if they want to change their play schedule.

I applaud Anet for even trying to help with the population. The introduction of linked servers was great! Before that, BL’s were empty during primetime, except for duelers and on reset.

Highly doubt they will remove it even though most of the people who voted yes were just trolling. Carl spent way to much time developing that map for them to remove it

Decado.9304:

Kills made in total on Borderlands are roughly 40% : 40% : 20%, that alone shows its not populated anywhere near the Alpine map.

and yes Alpine is stale and old however it does have decent balance. The DBL whilst having some nice points and ideas does not have good balance and it is certainly not much faster to move around than Alpine. Certain parts are, if you hold shrines etc and make use of the jumppads or flying portals but then someone flips a camp or shrine and you’re screwed.

These changes that have been made on the DB map have made them even better imo. Of course you can fall midflight if someone takes a shrine out from under you as you’re jumping. That’s the risk of it. Seriously this game isn’t supposed to be a snap.

The DBL is nowhere near as bad as the people say it is. If the time was dedicated to the DBL, (even half the time as ABL) then people would eventually learn the ins and outs of it. It’s really not that hard to get around. Once you really know the map it’s not as slow as you think. Yes it’s bigger than Alpine but so what? To me that’s the challenge and fun of it.

I have to suspect that no matter what different type of map ANet might come out with there will be complaints. That’s the nature of things. But going in and screaming NOOOOOOO then posting about how it needs to be removed truly isn’t going to be helpful… once again.. in my opinion..

*Edit: Note, the first iteration of DBL was totally terrible. It was definitely designed to be painful for anyone and everyone. The changes that have been made to it since then have made it much better.

Carbi.6357:

Take a look at wvwintel.com
Pick a server, check kill/death ratio on desert bl compared to other maps.
Theres ur proof that no one goes to desert.

edit: or maybe it is because it is so massive that no one ever finds an enemy on the map?

The map still needs work, but it’s not being removed.

Carbi.6357:

Take a look at wvwintel.com
Pick a server, check kill/death ratio on desert bl compared to other maps.
Theres ur proof that no one goes to desert.

edit: or maybe it is because it is so massive that no one ever finds an enemy on the map?

Well it IS proof that at least someone goes to DBL although the numbers are a lot lower than the other maps. I can preach all I want about how much I like the DBL but the fact still remains that for people that really like to zerg/blob fight the DBL simply isn’t good for that. I’ve posted before, (as others have), about how good it would be to remove the center of the map stuff and make it a nice flat battle ground. I bet for the DBL that would be a great “revival” thing. But I don’t believe they will ever do that.

So for the DBL it will continue to be a roamers home mostly and a k-train spot for the bored blobs that just want to paper things. As much as I really do like the DBL the numbers truly are proof that it’s still a map that’s not working for even close to half the wvw population.

We had a revote with cannons. A revote for DBL would be nice. If one has DBL theres a major advantage. 2 months ABL, 1 month DBL. everything would be fine. Why? because we still got EB left.

Turk.5460:

I don’t get the mentality of “Anet needs to fix population.”

How is population anywhere remotely Anet’s fault? Players choose their server. Players choose to transfer servers. Players choose what time of day/night they primarily play. Players choose if they want to change their play schedule.

I applaud Anet for even trying to help with the population. The introduction of linked servers was great! Before that, BL’s were empty during primetime, except for duelers and on reset.

Anet need to fix it because they applied the band-aid of server linking which makes it super easy and cheap for people to bandwagon to a server and cause massive imbalances. Yes that’s the players fault but Anet are the ones who control the servers and they should at least be trying to alleviate this and bring more equal MU’s to what is a very enjoyable format.

Killing the linked servers and limit EU to 15 (cant comment on US) maybe even 12 would be a start, even lowering the map caps to 60, they have all the metrics but aren’t doing a helluva lot to fix it.

And if they are keeping DBL then streamline it a bit, improve the movement pads – maybe link them to the T-status of the 3 keeps instead of the shrines, or splitting the keep pad point so you can actually start/stop there instead of just overshooting

The new jump pads made it much more manageable and gave solo roamers a solid target to take out to reduce enemy mobility. I like what they have done with a difficult map to make it more manageable. My only remaining wish is they would put armor repair on the same level and next to the WP so players wouldn’t have to face-plant jumping down for a repair. Either that or stairs at Stoic.

ThunderPanda.1872:

Cliffs artificially expanded the size of the map, which exaggerates the feeling of the BL being deserted due to low population.

Artificially? Its literally huge compared to ABL.

Case of point, go to the SW tower. Stand on the west wall. See that sentry within LoS, no cliffs between? If you where to go there, bay outer is still 2 times that distance away straight and 3 times to walk.

Now go to ABL, SW tower. Stand outside the lord room and look towards bay. See bay outer wall? Thats the same bloody distance to the sentry in the DBL case.

There is nothing “artificial” about the DBL size. It was made big.

Played desert tonight, stumbling on all the random kitten on the ground still bothers me. Also traveling around that map isn’t “faster” than alpines, even with shortcuts, it certainly relies on waypoints and ewp more than alpines.

Dawdler.8521:

ThunderPanda.1872:

Cliffs artificially expanded the size of the map, which exaggerates the feeling of the BL being deserted due to low population.

Artificially? Its literally huge compared to ABL.

Case of point, go to the SW tower. Stand on the west wall. See that sentry within LoS, no cliffs between? If you where to go there, bay outer is still 2 times that distance away straight and 3 times to walk.

Now go to ABL, SW tower. Stand outside the lord room and look towards bay. See bay outer wall? Thats the same bloody distance to the sentry in the DBL case.

There is nothing “artificial” about the DBL size. It was made big.

Cool. I never said it was small. I just said it expanded it. I also don’t mind the map being big, but I personally just don’t like how I have to constantly circumvent myself around so many, always empty staircases, hay, hills to go to the place a want. It almost as if WvW became a true running simulator.

Don’t forget, this is the same company that says that if you like WvW you’re also really into PvE… of course they are delusional about the numbers

But I get it and support that they cater to different types of players. Personally, I dislike roaming and think that the DBL map is awful for large scale fights – the core of WvW – and can’t be bothered to learn the gimmicks of the obviously PvE-designed map. Obviously, some people feel differently and that opinion should be respected. Also, without the roamer population, WvW would probably be dead for good since they are important in every map.

As someone else said, there are far worse problems in WvW, removing DBL would mean little to nothing compared to what should be adressed

Caliburn.1845:

All the arguments for getting rid of DBL can just as easily be used to justify getting rid of Alpine BL as well.

Much less active than EBG? Check. Much more PVD? Check. Much more running around to get anywhere? Check.

We should clearly get rid of all the BLs, get rid of EotM, and just have EBG by this argument. Which would just be silly. We need maps that are different, even maps that are less popular. Nothing would be more boring than having four identical maps to play on.

I hate EOTM.

I love the Desert BL.

Getting one more map that is totally different wouldn’t hurt.

The Alpine map is good for one server, the Desert for one, but we really need a third that is ‘different’ to round out what needs to be a sense of strategy, not just pretty pictures and even non-named vista points…

Aphs.9528:

If 75% really did vote for desert bl than why is there hardly anyone on that map ?

Because 75% of WvW’ers just follow tags, and the tags probably voted against it because they hated looking dumb in front of a zerg while they try to learn the new map :P

Yeah old post but HAD to respond to it anyways!

Aphs.9528:

The proof is here that 70% + people are not happy about desert bl
-http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Currently the vote is 33% for desert and 67% against, which is ironic to me as there are 4 maps you can go to between EB and the borderlands so you’d think it would be at LEAST 75% against, because they’d be filling up the other 3 maps.

Xenesis.6389:

FYI, WvW isn’t about “exploring”, that’s what the pve maps are for.

But I highly doubt you even know about the many golem hiding spots all around in alpines, or where the best siege placements are, and when you see those spots and how connected the camps, towers, and keeps are, you start to see how much more better alpines is that regards to map play. Desert pretty much has everything separated.

Do a little exploring in DBL and you’ll find much more of the very same things than there are in Alpine. We’re pushing 2 years of Desert and still finding new siege placements and hiding spots, whereas 90% of Alpine’s secrets were learned in 2 months.

Dinas Dragonbane.2978:

whereas 90% of Alpine’s secrets were learned in 2 months.

Well.. I mean.. that’s gonna happen when alpine’s was around when the most active amount of wvw players ever were playing, first two months of the game.. and desert was empty for it’s first 6 months… so yeah…

I love the terrain in DBL more than Alpine – it leads to more dynamic battles than “Blob across the barren terrain” of Alpine and EBG. The problem, I think, is the actual layout. Camps are supposed to protected by keeps and towers, and keeps are supposed to be protected by towers, which can be used as staging points to assault keeps.