Guild Wars 2

People seem to rally behind anything anti-condition, but Automated Response and Diamond Skin are going too far with it.

Being completely immune to conditions is shutting down condition builds while roaming.

They’re both really awful traits to take in groups because you’re going to take a lot of all types of damage, but while roaming, they’re the most over powered traits in the game to condi builds.

I wouldn’t mind them being like berserker stance as a passive on an internal CD, but permanent immunity to a primary type of damage is the most horribly designed thing I’ve ever experienced (not a hyperbole).

Anet has broken condition builds in PvE with bleed cap and objects not taking condition damage, now they’ve done it in PvP. Please stop.

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Straegen.2938:

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Hard counters are terrible design.

It’s almost as if Anet is trying to stop the proliferation of condi-builds in WvW. Maybe now we will see less condi-necros. Maybe.

Personally, I’m fine with Diamond Skin. If you can’t chip away the 3-4k HP it takes to drop an ele to 90% then you are completely ignoring an entire part of the games damage system. You can still run condi damage heavy while still having a few attacks that can do damage.

Derek.9021:

Straegen.2938:

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Hard counters are terrible design.

Condi-bunkers are also a terrible design. Damage increases should always be countered by decreasing the sources survivability. I accept condi-bunker players since that is how the game is designed and now avoid condi-bunkers since that is the best course of action for the builds I play. Had my class access to these skills I would seriously consider adding them into my build and wouldn’t feel bad about it for a second.

Straegen.2938:

Derek.9021:

Straegen.2938:

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Hard counters are terrible design.

Condi-bunkers are also a terrible design. Damage increases should always be countered by decreasing the sources survivability. I accept condi-bunker players since that is how the game is designed and now avoid condi-bunkers since that is the best course of action for the builds I play. Had my class access to these skills I would seriously consider adding them into my build and wouldn’t feel bad about it for a second.

But condi removal is that dmg reduction. You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword, you have that dmg. If you get hit by a mark, you can cleanse.

Once again, AR does not make you immune to conditions. You still receive the damage from the conditions already on you. You just cannot receive any new conditions, and this is not much different from lesser traits or skills that turn conditions into boons.

Since mobility is the main source of survivability in GW2, I’d say they’ve done a pretty good job in decreasing the sources of survivability for a necro.

Chaba.5410:

Once again, AR does not make you immune to conditions. You still receive the damage from the conditions already on you. You just cannot receive any new conditions, and this is not much different from lesser traits or skills that turn conditions into boons.

yeah, my emphasis is on diamond skin, but I think they both should have a time limit on immunity

It’s just so good that you can’t even tell it’s there.

I have cried so many tears for the condi necs, perplexity engis, and condi mesmers that I have killed since the patch. So very many tears.

Derek.9021:

Straegen.2938:

Derek.9021:

Straegen.2938:

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Hard counters are terrible design.

Condi-bunkers are also a terrible design. Damage increases should always be countered by decreasing the sources survivability. I accept condi-bunker players since that is how the game is designed and now avoid condi-bunkers since that is the best course of action for the builds I play. Had my class access to these skills I would seriously consider adding them into my build and wouldn’t feel bad about it for a second.

But condi removal is that dmg reduction. You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword, you have that dmg. If you get hit by a mark, you can cleanse.

Ah but you can mitigate direct damage through toughness. Conditions have no passive mitigation. Cleanses require skills on our skillbar to work and oftentimes entire builds built around cleansing.

It’s okay to want a change, but hard counters are not the way to do it.

What do you suggest then? Just allowing conditions to run rampant in PvP? Freaking hell. Let eles have something.

Conditions have no passive mitigation.

Tell that to the many people out there who use Melandru and Lemongrass. That is what I use on my guardian.

Derek.9021:

But condi removal is that dmg reduction. You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword, you have that dmg. If you get hit by a mark, you can cleanse.

Ways to decrease direct damage:

block, dodge, invuln, toughness, blind, weakness, reflect and I am sure I am missing more.

Ways to decrease condi damage:

remove the condition (which we have very little control over), reduce the duration, use one of two traits that make a player invuln to them

Oozo.7856:

Conditions have no passive mitigation.

Tell that to the many people out there who use Melandru and Lemongrass. That is what I use on my guardian.

Both are easily offset by Veggie Pizza/Koi Cakes and several runes and traits that increase duration.

Straegen.2938:

Derek.9021:

But condi removal is that dmg reduction. You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword, you have that dmg. If you get hit by a mark, you can cleanse.

Ways to decrease direct damage:

block, dodge, invuln, toughness, blind, weakness, reflect and I am sure I am missing more.

Ways to decrease condi damage:

remove the condition (which we have very little control over), reduce the duration, use one of two traits that make a player invuln to them

Oh, so you are saying that you can’t block, dodge, invuln, blind, reflect attacks that put conditions on you? Interesting.

Oozo.7856:

Conditions have no passive mitigation.

Tell that to the many people out there who use Melandru and Lemongrass. That is what I use on my guardian.

I was speaking in terms of traits (toughness) and skills. Of course there is food and runes but anyone using condis use their own to offset the reduction.

I’m coming from the point of him being upset that one class can hard counter him now. It’s such a trial not being able to kill all 7 other professions. Now he can only kill 6 of them easily.

Oozo.7856:

Oh, so you are saying that you can’t block, dodge, invuln, blind, reflect attacks that put conditions on you? Interesting.

Only some of them not all of them. Most DD invulns do not work against existing conditions, many conditions (such as wells and marks) are blind immune, condition application frequently ignores blocks, etc. Many conditions are applied when you hit someone or walk over an area which cannot be avoided aside from these two trait lines and the right circumstances.

There are FAR more ways to mitigate and avoid direct damage. There are even more direct damage invulns than there are condition ones.

Tibstrike.2974:

Oozo.7856:

Conditions have no passive mitigation.

Tell that to the many people out there who use Melandru and Lemongrass. That is what I use on my guardian.

I was speaking in terms of traits (toughness) and skills. Of course there is food and runes but anyone using condis use their own to offset the reduction.

I’m coming from the point of him being upset that one class can hard counter him now. It’s such a trial not being able to kill all 7 other professions. Now he can only kill 6 of them easily.

I believe that the OP mains a guardian. It might do you some good to roll a necro and go duel some good players.

Derek.9021:

But condi removal is that dmg reduction. You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword, you have that dmg. If you get hit by a mark, you can cleanse.

What? Let’s keep things in perspective here. Protection reduces physical damage taken, then there are damage reduction traits or abilities. If I am facing a power build and have permanent protection hello -33% damage the whole fight.

I have a necro and I have a thief that I run condi on sometimes. Conditions is passive and active play. You actively apply your damage then you can passively wait for the person to die while you kite. They can cleanse but if you are a engi or necro we all know that application is not a problem at all. Depending on the class you are fighting they just might not have enough condition removal. I like conditions but I recognize that a large part of condition damage builds are passive. If your bleed is 5 seconds and it runs its course and does 1k damage you just pressed a button and let the dot do the work. You didn’t actively remove that 1k damage. Thats a kind of extreme example but that is just how condition damage is.

The physical damage example would be a mesmer running around letting their phantasms do everything, a ranger with spirits.

Hard counters are already in the game inherently. If a condition necro carries corrupt boon and comes across a ele that doesn’t have 30 in water and ether renewal with stability to protect ether renewal he just hard countered the Ele.

It is a hard counter trait but that is cause you are running dire. I was fighting a very good necro earlier testing the trait. First fight I rolled him, second fight he adjusted with minions and almost got me was very close. Third fight Lich mode even in a condition build puts out enough damage bye bye diamond skin hello dead Ele.

Really though, it amuses me that the people who abused the kitten out of condis when they were a guaranteed win vs. eles are now complaining that the situation is reversed. OP is a perplexity engi btw.

Lopez.7369:

First of all, Diamond Skin elementalists are unique in that they are a total counter to condition builds. It’s normal for some builds to soft counter others, but Diamond Skin elementalists are the only build that are literally impossible for another viable build.

Second of all, the developers have repeatedly stated that they want to avoid the rock-paper-scissors philosophy. Diamond Skin elementalists are the first time the developers ignored those promises for class balance.

Impossible… sorry no. Any decent condi is going to have some direct damage. They just have to chew through 1.5k to 2k worth of health to apply their conditions. Once on Diamond Skin does nothing to remove them.

I do not recall any dev saying that but even if they did it makes no sense. Some builds/classes are always going to be a counter to other builds/classes. To my knowledge there is no class/build that doesn’t have an opposing class/build that is extremely difficult to win against.

Straegen.2938:

Oozo.7856:

Oh, so you are saying that you can’t block, dodge, invuln, blind, reflect attacks that put conditions on you? Interesting.

Only some of them not all of them. Most DD invulns do not work against existing conditions, many conditions (such as wells and marks) are blind immune, condition application frequently ignores blocks, etc. Many conditions are applied when you hit someone or walk over an area which cannot be avoided aside from these two trait lines and the right circumstances.

There are FAR more ways to mitigate and avoid direct damage. There are even more direct damage invulns than there are condition ones.

This post is full of false statements.

The chances that a condi necro runs with lich form just in case they run across a diamond skin elementalist are pretty close to zero. :P

Oozo.7856:

The chances that a condi necro runs with lich form just in case they run across a diamond skin elementalist are pretty close to zero. :P

The chances that a condition Necromancer finds an Elementalist taking Diamond Skin is around the same.

glaphen.5230:

Oozo.7856:

The chances that a condi necro runs with lich form just in case they run across a diamond skin elementalist are pretty close to zero. :P

The chances that a condition Necromancer finds an Elementalist taking Diamond Skin is around the same.

Quite a few elems use it in WvW. They run around looking for condition builds to troll. :P

It doesn’t bother me much since I run with mixed damage type groups. Diamond skin is fine for group fights, stupid for 1v1s. But, 1v1s in this game are mostly stupid to begin with anyway.

Derek.9021:

Being completely immune to conditions is shutting down condition builds while roaming.

They’re both really awful traits to take in groups because you’re going to take a lot of all types of damage, but soloing to three players, they’re the most over powered traits in the game to condi builds.

I wouldn’t mind them being like berserker stance as a passive on an internal CD, but permanent immunity to a primary type of damage is the most horribly designed thing I’ve ever experienced (not a hyperbole).

Hard counters are there for stopping easy mode play from becoming too rampant.

And soloing 3 people at once? lol I’m guessing none of you bothered to take power at all and probably all ran bunky condition stats. Seriously all you had to do was have one person with a power build and he would have dropped easily.

Lopez.7369:

Straegen.2938:

Oozo.7856:

Oh, so you are saying that you can’t block, dodge, invuln, blind, reflect attacks that put conditions on you? Interesting.

Only some of them not all of them. Most DD invulns do not work against existing conditions, many conditions (such as wells and marks) are blind immune, condition application frequently ignores blocks, etc. Many conditions are applied when you hit someone or walk over an area which cannot be avoided aside from these two trait lines and the right circumstances.

There are FAR more ways to mitigate and avoid direct damage. There are even more direct damage invulns than there are condition ones.

Marks are not blind immune. They can bypass blocks with a Death Magic trait, but that trait is only taken by power, not condition, builds.

Wells also aren’t blind or block immune. They do bypass those mechanics more easily, but a constant source of blind, such as a blind field, or block, such as a two-second block, can negate wells. Also, wells are taken by power builds, not condition builds.

Area-of-effect abilities aren’t blind or block immune either. By default, they can be blocked and blinded. In fact, if a necromancer is blinded before casting an AOE like Grasping Dead, the AOE misses on all its targets.

Come to think of it, the only ability I have as a condition necromancer that bypasses block is Corrupt Boon. The only two abilities I have that bypass blind are Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark, which only transfer conditions.

Whatever the case, it’s helpful in these conversations if you only talk about balance when you actually know what you’re talking about.

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Derek.9021:

Straegen.2938:

I know this is somewhat worn out but rock meet paper.

Hard counters are terrible design.

they are not hard counters, atleast not diamond skin.
If you want to beat diamond skin, and have a hard time doing so. Switch your amulet for an exotic PVT amulet. That alone should give you enough boost to Power so that you can deal sufficient damage to get that ele under 90% HP pretty quick.
AR, not had much of an issue with it. Just be easy on the condition spam and grind the engi down. Let AR kick in and dump all your heavy condies on him.

In the end, it is all about insight, timing and execution. If you got those three covered, nothing can be considered a hard counter.

Lopez.7369:

oZii.2864:

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Everyone does at high-level play, which is where balance needs to be focused on.

Your response is mostly missing the broader point of the post, though.

This is the WvW forums what are you talking about with high-level play? The OP is talking about Solo-Roaming in WvW. I didn’t miss anything I know the person he fought and I am on the same server as the OP was in the same borderland when he was talking about it in map chat I haven’t missed anything.

Lopez.7369:

Personally, I’ve tested Diamond Skin by putting my necromancer in rabid gear against an elementalist in berserker gear. All I used was my staff auto-attack; he used his water attunement staff auto-attack. I died before I broke Diamond Skin.

Why would you do such a crappy test? First your testing rabid gear vs zerker if rabid would out dps zerker it would be the go to PvE set. Second Staff auto sucks and water auto gives vulnerability stacks. Terrible testing. Power>precision everyone that understands the game knows that. Doesn’t matter if your in full rabid with 80% chance to crit and no power to back it up.

Lopez.7369:

Penguin.5197:

Hard counters are there for stopping easy mode play from becoming too rampant.

And soloing 3 people at once? lol I’m guessing none of you bothered to take power at all and probably all ran bunky condition stats. Seriously all you had to do was have one person with a power build and he would have dropped easily.

That doesn’t make any sense. Diamond Skin is the definition of easy mode play. It’s a passive that makes other passives stronger.

Besides, that’s not the right philosophy toward balance. Easy play should be made naturally unrewarding and countered by stronger play. That’s basic game design.

I’m also not sure what easy play you’re talking about. Are you suggesting that engineer is easy to play? And what makes condition builds any easier than power builds? How is a phantasm mesmer or minion master necromancer more difficult to play than condition builds?

oZii.2864:

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Everyone does at high-level play, which is where balance needs to be focused on.

Your response misses the broader point of the post, anyway.

Well, last time Anet tried to introduce a “soft counter” was with stealth. They gave rangers the ability to apply revealed. Look how efficient that was.
The devs at Anet might need to reflect upon the saying “There is a difference between shaving and cutting ones head off” (poorly translated from my own language, sorry).

They seem to make fairly balanced “hard counters”.

Necro OP → hammer warrior
Can hammer warrior be beaten? → yes, it can.
Conditions OP → The profession with the hardest time dealing with those, ele, got diamond skin
Can diamond skin be dealt with → yes it can.

Lopez.7369:

Marks are not blind immune. They can bypass blocks with a Death Magic trait, but that trait is only taken by power, not condition, builds.

Wells also aren’t blind or block immune. They do bypass those mechanics more easily, but a constant source of blind, such as a blind field, or block, such as a two-second block, can negate wells. Also, wells are taken by power builds, not condition builds.

Area-of-effect abilities aren’t blind or block immune either. By default, they can be blocked and blinded. In fact, if a necromancer is blinded before casting an AOE like Grasping Dead, the AOE misses on all its targets.

Come to think of it, the only ability I have as a condition necromancer that bypasses block is Corrupt Boon. The only two abilities I have that bypass blind are Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark, which only transfer conditions.

Whatever the case, it’s helpful in these conversations if you only talk about balance when you actually know what you’re talking about.

Oh for Fs sake…. Blindness does indeed effect marks and wells but only one pulse worth. Wells, Corrupt Boon and traps avoid the block altogether. Read the wiki here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

I do agree it is helpful when someone knows what they are talking about.

Prysin.8542:

Lopez.7369:

Penguin.5197:

Hard counters are there for stopping easy mode play from becoming too rampant.

And soloing 3 people at once? lol I’m guessing none of you bothered to take power at all and probably all ran bunky condition stats. Seriously all you had to do was have one person with a power build and he would have dropped easily.

That doesn’t make any sense. Diamond Skin is the definition of easy mode play. It’s a passive that makes other passives stronger.

Besides, that’s not the right philosophy toward balance. Easy play should be made naturally unrewarding and countered by stronger play. That’s basic game design.

I’m also not sure what easy play you’re talking about. Are you suggesting that engineer is easy to play? And what makes condition builds any easier than power builds? How is a phantasm mesmer or minion master necromancer more difficult to play than condition builds?

oZii.2864:

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Everyone does at high-level play, which is where balance needs to be focused on.

Your response misses the broader point of the post, anyway.

Well, last time Anet tried to introduce a “soft counter” was with stealth. They gave rangers the ability to apply revealed. Look how efficient that was.
The devs at Anet might need to reflect upon the saying “There is a difference between shaving and cutting ones head off” (poorly translated from my own language, sorry).

They seem to make fairly balanced “hard counters”.

Necro OP -> hammer warrior
Can hammer warrior be beaten? -> yes, it can.
Conditions OP -> The profession with the hardest time dealing with those, ele, got diamond skin
Can diamond skin be dealt with -> yes it can.

Elementalist the class that has the hardest time dealing with conditions. Seriously?

Lopez.7369:

No, it’s demonstrably impossible. Necromancer and engineer players with both rabid and carrion gear have posted videos showing that they literally cannot penetrate through Diamond Skin if an elementalist has any notion of what he’s doing.

You are implying you should never have to adjust a build to handle another build. Not being able to do 1.5k of direct damage to another player is the limiting factor here not Diamond Skin. Adapt… everyone else had to when condi-bunkers started roaming around all over the place. These two traits aren’t even build defining and any player that loses to an D/D ele stuck in water should just quit playing that build.

oh and since there are a lot of videos showing this problem… care to link a couple?

jeez just the hit the elementalist a couple of times prior to applying you’re conditions, they have the worst armour and hp in the game, and 10% of their health drops if just look at them the wrong way… this thread.. lol.

glaphen.5230:

Prysin.8542:

Lopez.7369:

Penguin.5197:

Hard counters are there for stopping easy mode play from becoming too rampant.

And soloing 3 people at once? lol I’m guessing none of you bothered to take power at all and probably all ran bunky condition stats. Seriously all you had to do was have one person with a power build and he would have dropped easily.

That doesn’t make any sense. Diamond Skin is the definition of easy mode play. It’s a passive that makes other passives stronger.

Besides, that’s not the right philosophy toward balance. Easy play should be made naturally unrewarding and countered by stronger play. That’s basic game design.

I’m also not sure what easy play you’re talking about. Are you suggesting that engineer is easy to play? And what makes condition builds any easier than power builds? How is a phantasm mesmer or minion master necromancer more difficult to play than condition builds?

oZii.2864:

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Everyone does at high-level play, which is where balance needs to be focused on.

Your response misses the broader point of the post, anyway.

Well, last time Anet tried to introduce a “soft counter” was with stealth. They gave rangers the ability to apply revealed. Look how efficient that was.
The devs at Anet might need to reflect upon the saying “There is a difference between shaving and cutting ones head off” (poorly translated from my own language, sorry).

They seem to make fairly balanced “hard counters”.

Necro OP -> hammer warrior
Can hammer warrior be beaten? -> yes, it can.
Conditions OP -> The profession with the hardest time dealing with those, ele, got diamond skin
Can diamond skin be dealt with -> yes it can.

Elementalist the class that has the hardest time dealing with conditions. Seriously?

Elementalists have a hard time with getting two shot by zerker backstab thieves from stealth. They should have given elementalists immunity to direct damage (until under 90% health, of course)

Snorcha.7586:

jeez just the hit the elementalist a couple of times prior to applying you’re conditions, they have the worst armour and hp in the game, and 10% of their health drops if just look at them the wrong way… this thread.. lol.

They are also one of the worst classes at healing themselves.

Lopez.7369:

Also, marks only “pulse” once. They don’t function like wells or traps.

Marks trigger once for each player that enters. If a necro is blinded, the trigger wears off on the first player. Subsequent players are effected by the mark. It may not “pulse” like a well but blindness goes away on the first missed activation generally speaking. My statement about blocking is accurate (at least based on the wiki). My rebuttal to the original statement “You can’t take away from a power build hitting you with a sword” stands (and this was what started this part of the thread)… there are lots of ways to reduce direct damage IMO more so than condi damage.

Lopez.7369:

Straegen.2938:

You are implying you should never have to adjust a build to handle another build. Not being able to do 1.5k of direct damage to another player is the limiting factor here not Diamond Skin. Adapt… everyone else had to when condi-bunkers started roaming around all over the place. These two traits aren’t even build defining and any player that loses to an D/D ele stuck in water should just quit playing that build.

People adapted to condition builds by changing a couple traits or utility skills. You’re telling condition necromancers to adapt by changing to power necromancer, which is a completely different archetype. That’s why Diamond Skin is a hard counter to condition builds.

Besides, there are better ways to balance condition builds without adding blanket immunities. More condition cleansing or duration reduction are just two examples. An immunity like Berserker Stance, which is time limited, would work as well.

Correct.

Passive damage reduction = Okay, no problem.
Passive damage immunity = WTKitten are you smoking?

Activated damage immunity on a cooldown = Okay, no problem
Passive damage immunity = WTKitten are you smoking?

Lopez.7369:

People adapted to condition builds by changing a couple traits or utility skills. You’re telling condition necromancers to adapt by changing to power necromancer, which is a completely different archetype. That’s why Diamond Skin is a hard counter to condition builds.

Besides, there are better ways to balance condition builds without adding blanket immunities. More condition cleansing or duration reduction are just two examples. An immunity like Berserker Stance, which is time limited, would work as well.

No I am saying they may need to adapt if this is really a problem. I actually run a straight condimancer necro build and delivering 2k of direct damage isn’t that difficult. I am not saying the fight isn’t stacked, but I am saying it isn’t impossible. Also when a player constructs a one trick pony, don’t be surprised when their trick doesn’t work that they lose.

D/D eles have been getting nerfed into the ground so it is REALLY difficult to imagine this is a serious problem. I don’t know much about engis aside from the condi-bunker variety are a problem so I would find it amusig if they are hammering other condi builds with this trait.

Oh and still want to see videos demonstrating Diamond Skin problems.

Impossible? I can break it with one skill on my condi-thief.

Lopez.7369:

It is literally impossible to break Diamond Skin. There is plenty of video evidence out there.

a couple links would help make your point

We’re talking about breaking past diamond skin with a condition based build, right? So there. You have been proven wrong. Move along.

Lopez.7369:

You cherry pick posts too much. Read the full post and context to get my point. I don’t want to repeat the same post over and over because you disagree with a narrow example.

I read the post your point is hard counter to condition builds and the necro and engi running condis are helpless against the elementalist. You back up your argument by saying that you verified that it hopeless for the necro to break through the elementalists 90% threshold because zerker>rabid in a dps race with a 10% damage modifier on top of his zerker gear unless he was dodge rolling around so that enduring damage wasn’t working. You can call it cherry picking but your test was terrible.

….Life blast?

After watching your video it appears like the person was specifically avoiding any sort of damage centric skills. He kept using the condition marks and ignored his direct damage one. When he did finally drop it the ele lost about 5% of his HP. Use a freaking direct damage skill once in a while.

Or when he used a minion…did we watch the same video? Cuz I saw him drop the ele below 90% quite a few times. He just was really crappy on applying conditions when he did. Even when he had help from the thief and the ele was below 75% for quite some time he only got one condition on the ele. One. I think this guy is just a kittenty necro.

glaphen.5230:

Prysin.8542:

Lopez.7369:

Penguin.5197:

Hard counters are there for stopping easy mode play from becoming too rampant.

And soloing 3 people at once? lol I’m guessing none of you bothered to take power at all and probably all ran bunky condition stats. Seriously all you had to do was have one person with a power build and he would have dropped easily.

That doesn’t make any sense. Diamond Skin is the definition of easy mode play. It’s a passive that makes other passives stronger.

Besides, that’s not the right philosophy toward balance. Easy play should be made naturally unrewarding and countered by stronger play. That’s basic game design.

I’m also not sure what easy play you’re talking about. Are you suggesting that engineer is easy to play? And what makes condition builds any easier than power builds? How is a phantasm mesmer or minion master necromancer more difficult to play than condition builds?

oZii.2864:

Not everyone runs 30/20/0/0/20 condition build, I run 30/20/20/0/0 on my Necro because greater marks is a powerful trait. I see more condition Necro’s running greater marks now then 30/20/0/0/20 standard Terrormancer.

Everyone does at high-level play, which is where balance needs to be focused on.

Your response misses the broader point of the post, anyway.

Well, last time Anet tried to introduce a “soft counter” was with stealth. They gave rangers the ability to apply revealed. Look how efficient that was.
The devs at Anet might need to reflect upon the saying “There is a difference between shaving and cutting ones head off” (poorly translated from my own language, sorry).

They seem to make fairly balanced “hard counters”.

Necro OP -> hammer warrior
Can hammer warrior be beaten? -> yes, it can.
Conditions OP -> The profession with the hardest time dealing with those, ele, got diamond skin
Can diamond skin be dealt with -> yes it can.

Elementalist the class that has the hardest time dealing with conditions. Seriously?

Low HP pool, and most of their cleanses, is tied to ONE traitline. Ether renewal is good but so obvious and easy to interrupt. Yes i know how eles work. They can have really nice cleansing, but their DPS goes down the drain, and they tend to become bunkerish if you spec for heavy cleansing.

Ranger doesn’t have very good active cleanses, but they got strong passive ones. Either way, neither profession does well at cleansing, unless specifically speccing for it.