Guild Wars 2

The game isn’t supposed to have a Trinity, but boy has WvW come close to recreating it, at least in how organized zergs operate.

Tanks: Frontline Hammer Warriors, Shout/Stability Guardians
Healers: Support-specced Guardians, Ele’s with water fields
DPS: Necro Wells, all other AoE DPS classes (’nade Engineer, LB Warrior etc.)

(And of course you can add secondary buff/debuff/utility roles)

But isn’t fascinating that despite the designers’ best efforts, the Trinity has reestablished itself?

It can’t really exist at the small group level because the critical mass of bodies isn’t there. But once you get enough players together, the roles begin to develop because of sheer numbers. Wisdom of the crowd perhaps? It also suggests that something like the Trinity is natural to MMO’s and will develop on its own if allowed to.

These are just some observations, but it suggests that Anet might want to make the Trinity harder than it is. As it stands now, it takes organized guild zergs to make use of Trinity tactics in WvW. This is obvious to anyone who has seen a guild zerg absolutely wipe a PUG zerg.

But if the Tank/Healing/DPS roles were more obvious in the class design, the average PUGer would know what to do in a zerg.

Guild groups wipe pugs because they’re organized and move together.

i don’t think they didn’t want it …
indeed there isn’t the classic trinity, forcing ppl to take specific classes in a group to be competitive.
btw there are specific roles and there can be organization between players.
if ppl play as a group and if they make their build for the group the results can be amazing, and that can be achieved using combos (so the interaction of more players – not just the healer).
when they will raise, or remove, aoe target limit it will be even better.

WvW did bring back the trinity. Anet only hid it, they didn’t remove it.

I want a good fight so I’ll tell you how to form it:
Tanks: bunker specs. These stack PVT and Cleric and build to strip conditions and sustain heals. Tanks specs should carry ample wards and snares so they can keep the enemy around them.

DPS: These are zerker and full condition damage specs. DPS carries damage and doesn’t stack PVT. They don’t go full zerker either but have a little bit of tankiness. DPS comes in ranged and melee forms. The ranged DPS is responsible for snaring and AOEing the enemy front line. The melee dps is responsible for destroying anything that attacks the ranged DPS and for hunting down enemy healers/soft targets. DPSers should carry ample disruption and use it to maximum effect.

Healers: Healer specs specialize in clearing conditions and healing. Healer specs carry some DPS too. Healers come in ranged and melee. Ranged Healers stay in the back line and are responsible for dropping water fields on the front line and generally healing them. They can drop CCs and snares too. Anything that helps them mitigate damage should be used. Melee healers are there to keep the dps backline safe. They will keep the DPS clear of conditions so that the DPS can do what they do best (damage).

The puzzle is figuring out how to put this all together and I’ll leave that up to you. BTW, trinity should be possible in sPvP and to an extent in pve too.

It’s called teamwork.

Finally a valid discussion on this forum.

lioka qiao.8734:

WvW did bring back the trinity. Anet only hid it, they didn’t remove it.

I want a good fight so I’ll tell you how to form it:
Tanks: bunker specs. These stack PVT and Cleric and build to strip conditions and sustain heals. Tanks specs should carry ample wards and snares so they can keep the enemy around them.

DPS: These are zerker and full condition damage specs. DPS carries damage and doesn’t stack PVT. They don’t go full zerker either but have a little bit of tankiness. DPS comes in ranged and melee forms. The ranged DPS is responsible for snaring and AOEing the enemy front line. The melee dps is responsible for destroying anything that attacks the ranged DPS and for hunting down enemy healers/soft targets. DPSers should carry ample disruption and use it to maximum effect.

Healers: Healer specs specialize in clearing conditions and healing. Healer specs carry some DPS too. Healers come in ranged and melee. Ranged Healers stay in the back line and are responsible for dropping water fields on the front line and generally healing them. They can drop CCs and snares too. Anything that helps them mitigate damage should be used. Melee healers are there to keep the dps backline safe. They will keep the DPS clear of conditions so that the DPS can do what they do best (damage).

The puzzle is figuring out how to put this all together and I’ll leave that up to you. BTW, trinity should be possible in sPvP and to an extent in pve too.

This is correct. The key is how players but all these pieces together. What I am worried about is certain professions provide the best field/blast combos or DPS/utility more efficiently than the others. We are starting to see key profession stacking for 25+ zerg warfare which excludes other professions/builds to havoc squads/roaming/scouting/reroll/respec. The key profession builds are highly rewarded for having the better field/blast combo synergy or DPS/utility; where as, other professions become more of a liability due to the lack of synergy they provide in a large group.

AydenStar.4216:

This is correct. The key is how players but all these pieces together. What I am worried about is certain professions provide the best field/blast combos or DPS/utility more efficiently than the others. We are starting to see key profession stacking for 25+ zerg warfare which excludes other professions/builds to havoc squads/roaming/scouting/reroll/respec. The key profession builds are highly rewarded for having the better field/blast combo synergy or DPS/utility; where as, other professions become more of a liability due to the lack of synergy they provide in a large group.

I have to agree. The huge difference in power of a blast finisher compared to any other finisher makes for what I consider to be a boring meta where everyone just stacks up, something that is amplified by the AoE cap.

AydenStar.4216:

Finally a valid discussion on this forum.

lioka qiao.8734:

WvW did bring back the trinity. Anet only hid it, they didn’t remove it.

I want a good fight so I’ll tell you how to form it:
Tanks: bunker specs. These stack PVT and Cleric and build to strip conditions and sustain heals. Tanks specs should carry ample wards and snares so they can keep the enemy around them.

DPS: These are zerker and full condition damage specs. DPS carries damage and doesn’t stack PVT. They don’t go full zerker either but have a little bit of tankiness. DPS comes in ranged and melee forms. The ranged DPS is responsible for snaring and AOEing the enemy front line. The melee dps is responsible for destroying anything that attacks the ranged DPS and for hunting down enemy healers/soft targets. DPSers should carry ample disruption and use it to maximum effect.

Healers: Healer specs specialize in clearing conditions and healing. Healer specs carry some DPS too. Healers come in ranged and melee. Ranged Healers stay in the back line and are responsible for dropping water fields on the front line and generally healing them. They can drop CCs and snares too. Anything that helps them mitigate damage should be used. Melee healers are there to keep the dps backline safe. They will keep the DPS clear of conditions so that the DPS can do what they do best (damage).

The puzzle is figuring out how to put this all together and I’ll leave that up to you. BTW, trinity should be possible in sPvP and to an extent in pve too.

This is correct. The key is how players but all these pieces together. What I am worried about is certain professions provide the best field/blast combos or DPS/utility more efficiently than the others. We are starting to see key profession stacking for 25+ zerg warfare which excludes other professions/builds to havoc squads/roaming/scouting/reroll/respec. The key profession builds are highly rewarded for having the better field/blast combo synergy or DPS/utility; where as, other professions become more of a liability due to the lack of synergy they provide in a large group.

Exactly, that is why I suggested Anet move towards designing classes for a hard (or harder) Trinity.

This is how the game is being played. They have to react.

Actually, havoc squads as small as a duo or trio also can utilize the basterdized version of the holy trinity in this game. As a 5 man, lately we almost never run without a couple of heal/support builds. Doing so really improves our ability to take on more numbers than we normally can.

Thrumdi.9216:

Exactly, that is why I suggested Anet move towards designing classes for a hard (or harder) Trinity.

This is how the game is being played. They have to react.

Hmm…

Strange conclusion. So because certain roles are being used in Zerg/GvG Metas ANet should move to a Hard (or Harder) Trinity impacting every other facet of the game?

The game has always had Control, Damage, and Support, so I think your bias is showing

I do agree with what others have said about ANet needing to make sure all Professions have a decent mix of Fields and/or Blast Finishers. That is far more important to the Meta (and just overall Class Balance in general) then trying to force people into “hard roles” based on certain Classes.

Yeah, give my Ranger a blast finisher on my Greatsword!

Boulderbolg.3460:

Actually, havoc squads as small as a duo or trio also can utilize the basterdized version of the holy trinity in this game. As a 5 man, lately we almost never run without a couple of heal/support builds. Doing so really improves our ability to take on more numbers than we normally can.

I like the fields/finishers in this game but its apparent that Blast finishers>Whirl and Projectile finishers. Sooner or later players will require professions with blast finishers/professions with the best access to certain combo fields. As the game stands now, only 5 profession synergy well; where as, the medium armor professions are stuck in situational limbo.

I do not believe the trinity is in GW2 at least not in the traditional sense. I think GW2 got it right with Support, Damage and Utility categories. Even with those categories defined, most builds fall into multiple categories.

Take the bunker guardian, both a healer and a tank. The bunker ele, can fall into all three categories. What about mesmers who are primarily focused around zerg support, they don’t heal or really tank… maybe DPS but that isn’t their primary focus. There simply are few if any pure trinity classes in GW2.

Straegen.2938:

I do not believe the trinity is in GW2 at least not in the traditional sense. I think GW2 got it right with Support, Damage and Utility categories. Even with those categories defined, most builds fall into multiple categories.

I think Anet got it right with the support, damage and utility but they gave Guardians easy access to a blast finisher with Hammer 2 and Light/Fire fields and condition removal with shouts. Warriors have easy access to blast finisher in Warhorn 5, Banner rez, and condition removal with shouts. Elementalist have easy access to most fields via staff, and Necromancers easy DPS/CC with staff and Dark fields from wells. Mesmer’s on the other hand just support the zerg with portal and veil.

Thieves, Engineer and Rangers are stick in situational limbo. The 5 professions mentioned above can pretty much fill 2 of these roles with one build; where as, the 3 medium profession don’t even come close.

^that’s true.

I’m quite happy about how wvw team play is working – BUT – it’s restricted to 5 classes.

(in a zerg/group play)

Main trinity:
-guards (sturdy backbone, cleanses, decent dmg, few controls). they carry easy blast.
-mesmers (manly utility box with glamours, some dmgand control, can have support)
-ele (utility trough fields for buff/regroup, jsut need ppl for blasting. direct support with heals and cleanses. strong CC. long range aoe pressure)

Additional:
-warrior (meele dmg. decent CC. some support – shout cleanses with soldier runes). carry easy blast.
-necro (aoe pressure, raw dmg and CC)

The medium armor classes are…a bit left out.
-thief: cluster bomb spam for blast, maybe venom/deception build..but that’s it
-ranger: traps can be used for decent snares, but other classes have way stronger and with longer range/aoe CC’s.
-engi: can have a place with nade/bombs or EG/bomb, carry a LOT of blast. it’s simply not used much tho.

I agree that medium armor classes got the shaft in terms of team or zerg play. I’m better off using them as solo classes or in spvp. Please give me usable blast finishers for my engi and ranger. I would love to use one of them in teamplay WvW.

Avatar of Belle.9623:

I agree that medium armor classes got the shaft in terms of team or zerg play. I’m better off using them as solo classes or in spvp. Please give me usable blast finishers for my engi and ranger. I would love to use one of them in teamplay WvW.

Have a couple warriors in your zerg run with a banner or two. Then everyone has a blast finisher: "interact">5.

Ranger has the longest lasting water field in the game on a 50% uptime, there’s a reason they don’t have blast finishers. I am not sure I agree with it completely, perhaps warhorn should be given one as warriors was, but it would be hard to give them many without it becoming the best group-healing class. Which also, I’m not opposed to, but that’s ANet’s balancing style, make guardians and warriors the best at everything group related and every other class just some gimicky animations.

Engineer has a crapton of blast finishers as well as easy access to 2 water fields and two more aoe healing options that stack with everything if traited for healing bombs and using elixer gun. A lot more juggling skills than a guardian and maybe not even as good, but it’s not like they have no fields or finishers. Engineer is my current “main” so I’m familiar with the burst healing potential and regeneration application of healing turret, elixer gun, bomb kit and offhand shield, could even add thumper in there for 2 more blasts but I like toolkit too much.

Around release everyone was saying elementalists and necros and engineers were bad at everything. Then it became “elementalist OP!”, now it’s necros turn. Engineer’s time is coming soon. Ranger’s may have passed quickly due to the “put on a blindfold and throw darts at the board of random ideas” method of balancing…..

Not really. Healing and support gives you nothing. So most are going to DPS. Armor doesn’t mean much in wvw in all reality, just how well can you escape and block damage.

kelman.9451:

Not really. Healing and support gives you nothing. So most are going to DPS. Armor doesn’t mean much in wvw in all reality, just how well can you escape and block damage.

Healing gives a lot when combined with blast finishers, support in terms of condition stripping and cc is vital.

Every grenade skill on engi should be a blast finisher.

ANET didn’t remove anything, they just made it so no one was forced into a specific role. Great idea with a huge negative side effect. So many bad players obviously need to be forced into specific roles or you end up with the skill-less zerg play we have now.

This has led the the most boring faction based MMO I have ever played and one of the few games that has had no skill progression at all, in fact it seems worse now then at release because all the good players/guilds have gotten bored and left the game.

ANET needs to toss their reward system on its head and start rewarding good play and thus encouraging folks to step forward and start playing with the amazing synergy this game actually provides. Setup the squad system with a GUI management system, ie raid frames, and change all buffs/heals/effects to be group only. Over night this game will be transformed to something actually worth playing.

It also suggests that something like the Trinity is natural to MMO’s and will develop on its own if allowed to.

No. This game just isn’t that differend from a typical “trinity mmo”. It merely claims to be so. You don’t have trinity say in Runescape because that’s an old game (at least not back then when I played it). Eve online, well I don’t think that has trinity either, at least not in the same sense as here or in other mmos? Anyway, in almost every post-wow mmo you have it.

It seems a lot of players love using the world trinity without any understanding what it truly means. So they keep spewing crap.

Guild wars 2 never got rid of the trinity nor did it claim it did, it redefined it and redistributed it to the 8 professions in varying amounts. Before the trinity was tank, heal and dps. Guild wars 2 replaced it with control, support and damage (dps part did not change). Unlike WOW, every class has varying amounts of support, damage and control. Some classes like guardian/elementalist are better at support, some are better at control and so on.

In WoW, you always needed a tank and support and dps. In guild wars 2 since every class has some aspect of the three you can thereotically complete content with any class. Obviously in reality, players don’t do that because players love the path of least resistance.

The point being guild wars 2 never once claimed it did not have a trinity, it even said so in one its design document. The difference is all classes have some aspect of the trinity and NOT only a single class like in WOW.

Here is the link if you actually care to read it (I doubt) http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

I think we are at a point in this game where professions are going to be dissected for their usefulness and other professions will be situational or not needed. I would like that not to happen when everyone plays a profession they prefer to play.

blast finishers + water + fire + static = op in zerg. it comes with ability to create “overstacking” (my english lol) etc. effect with so many finishers and numbers in zerg.

it’s also effective in small group but it actually requires more teamwork and maybe a tiny little bit of thinking. in general i think in small group (less than kittening 10) it works like it should.

The trinity doesn’t exist because groups aren’t being optimized to fit a specific format.

Did you play WoW back in the 40 man raid days? Remember trying to kill Patchwerk for the first time? You couldn’t do it with more then 5 healers because it was a DPS check at the front of the instance where no one had enough gear from that instance yet. We don’t see that going on here where guilds are running with X of Class A, Y of Class B, etc.

All the zerg is doing currently is optimizing the classes that it has available to fill the most valuable role they can. It has little to do with tanking or healing because the zerg wouldn’t be calling the night because no warriors logged on for example. They’d simply work without them.

So while this game may still have the min/max approach to gaming, it certainly doesn’t have the holy trinity stacked ontop of it imo.

Another way to find out if the game has the holy trinity is if after an hour of group PvP you still have that empty feeling in your heart because you didn’t do anything productive. That’s a sign that the PvP system is boring and shallow and often times a direct result of no trinity at work.

like silvermember.8941 mentioned, gw2 doesnt work like the typical traditional mmorpg designated class of designated role. gw2 give you the some choice on the roles you can take. there are other similar games that do it that way, it is nothing new.

the healing is not extremely high compared to typical mmorpg’s healer. TS’s “trinity” is nothing more than wvw’s organized formations

kelman.9451:

Healing and support gives you nothing. So most are going to DPS. Armor doesn’t mean much in wvw in all reality, just how well can you escape and block damage.

lol ? Healing and support is EVERYTHING in a successful guild group roaming in wvw.
Armor is incredibly important as well, only ranged classes spec into zerker more often, but still usually run knight/cavalier…

Anyway…I really dont think trinity exists here, maybe just a bit…, most healing comes from blasting water fields, warrior shouts, ele, guardian skills etc it is a team effort. DPS ? the best burst is offered by the melee train who are usually built very tanky, ranged support with their consistent pressure and raw damage as well. Every single class has decent amount of CC, supportive skills, damage etc etc.

SkyShroud.2865:

like silvermember.8941 mentioned, gw2 doesnt work like the typical traditional mmorpg designated class of designated role. gw2 give you the some choice on the roles you can take. there are other similar games that do it that way, it is nothing new.

the healing is not extremely high compared to typical mmorpg’s healer. TS’s “trinity” is nothing more than wvw’s organized formations

Agreed. You can look for characters that take more damage, deal more damage, or heal more damage and say “Ha! Trinity! I got you!” but characters do lots of things and they can specialize in all sorts of other ways too (unless you make the categories broad enough, then maybe we end up doin stupid things like talkin about which players are tanks in soccer and which are DPS).

silvermember.8941:

It seems a lot of players love using the world trinity without any understanding what it truly means. So they keep spewing crap.

Guild wars 2 never got rid of the trinity nor did it claim it did, it redefined it and redistributed it to the 8 professions in varying amounts. Before the trinity was tank, heal and dps. Guild wars 2 replaced it with control, support and damage (dps part did not change). Unlike WOW, every class has varying amounts of support, damage and control. Some classes like guardian/elementalist are better at support, some are better at control and so on.

In WoW, you always needed a tank and support and dps. In guild wars 2 since every class has some aspect of the three you can thereotically complete content with any class. Obviously in reality, players don’t do that because players love the path of least resistance.

The point being guild wars 2 never once claimed it did not have a trinity, it even said so in one its design document. The difference is all classes have some aspect of the trinity and NOT only a single class like in WOW.

Here is the link if you actually care to read it (I doubt) http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

That’s an interesting way to look at it, but saying that the trinity exists in GW2 because every player can do a little bit of what classic healers in other games did is stretching it. The definition of the “holy trinity” includes clear separation of classes into those three categories, and when everyone can resurrect and heal themselves this separation ceases to exist.

Instead of a clear separation of classes and roles, GW2 has a muddy group of generic classes that can all produce the same results in the game, just through different mechanics and to different degrees. In other words, class separation is less about healing/dps/tanking (effects that the character has on the game), and more about the class mechanics (how characters use skills, utilities, etc.)

I know a lot of MMO PvP players who don’t like GW2. Most of them are healer players, but I also think that to them this game’s focus on class mechanics over the effects a character has on the world around them is less interesting. I didn’t really enjoy WvW in this game until I got over the fact that all of the classes are generic in the sense of what they do instead of how they do it. Once I realized the “how they do it” part of this game (class mechanics) is really interesting, I started enjoying WvW a lot.

zerospin.8604:

Every grenade skill on engi should be a blast finisher.

Whoa. I play engie, and that would be too OP. The #2 skill, sure, but not every one.

Kind of… yea, they did, but… I feel that i survive alot more on the frontline with my necro than i do with my warrior (Tanky hammer build)… Even though i have no escapes, i have insane life siphon, 31k HP, AOE blindess, death shroud… i just feel more tanky with my necro

But your right.. Almost all frontline players are warriors or guardians

Thrumdi.9216:

Exactly, that is why I suggested Anet move towards designing classes for a hard (or harder) Trinity.

This is how the game is being played. They have to react.

So you want them to dumb down the game and make it harder for people to have organized play which would only encourage mindless zerging? What they should be doing is lifting up other classes so they are better at group play.

You’re also stretching the definition of the trinity. As there are no aggro mechanics in PVP, there are no tanks. Building for survivability is only one aspect of traditional tanking. People bunker because it allows them to do sustained DPS rather than being bowled over. Elementalists switching into water to drop fields then switching out are are hardly dedicated healers. The vast majority of staff Ele play is laying down other fields and doing damage. Similarly, you wouldn’t say a Ranger dropping a water field is a healer.

GW2 has an internal trinity: it’s damage (dps), support and control. Plus, it has features (e.g. combos) to encourage interactions across the trinity.

What messes this up is that GW2’s rewards are heavily dps based. Only organised groups really benefit from control and support (aside from PvP roaming) and while the WXP system has helped a bit, dps is still far and away the leader for rewards in WvW. This leads to an emphasis on dps builds and a heirarchy rather than a trinity.

WvW changes the traditional trinity of tank/dps/healer to a heirarchy of dps berserkers (the most common), tanks (to survive the berserkers) and hybrids (a bit of everything). Pug zergs are typically berserkers with a few (mroe experienced) tanks. PvP roaming groups are typically hybrids. Organised groups tend to tanks/hybrids.

It would be nice to think this will mature over time. But, as long as berserker zergs are the easiest and fastest way to WvW rewards, this isn’t likely to change much.

AydenStar.4216:

Boulderbolg.3460:

Actually, havoc squads as small as a duo or trio also can utilize the basterdized version of the holy trinity in this game. As a 5 man, lately we almost never run without a couple of heal/support builds. Doing so really improves our ability to take on more numbers than we normally can.

I like the fields/finishers in this game but its apparent that Blast finishers>Whirl and Projectile finishers. Sooner or later players will require professions with blast finishers/professions with the best access to certain combo fields. As the game stands now, only 5 profession synergy well; where as, the medium armor professions are stuck in situational limbo.

It’s interesting that it is the 3 medium armour classes that have no place in the zerg. That definitely shows the class design begins to break down in large numbers. The question then is why.

Medium armour wearers are the traditional midline. And midline usually means utility, a little of everything, with an emphasis on disruption, CC etc. The problem is all classes can also do that, if traited. This leads to the traditional midline functions being taken over the by the frontline (hammer warriors) and the backline (Necromancers). The supplementary midline DPS it also not needed, as all classes can DPS as well. (Same with supplementary healing).

You can sort of see the problem also with dungeons, though they are only 5 man, so the trend is not as pronounced. Still, the preferred 5 man PvE party is 3 Warriors, 1 Guardian, 1 Mesmer. (Or so I hear, I don’t do PvE).

It’s going to be instructive to see what happens when GW2 introduces raids. Unless there are some gimmick mechanics (like you need a certain class to open a door etc.), we may see the same Trinity develop there.

Solutions? The obvious one would be to take Blast finishers away from all frontline and backline classes, and give them to the medium armour wearers. Doubt that will happen though.

The problem that exists in the PvP in its current state is due to how emphasized DEFENSIVE builds are, not dps.
Consider this- by switching from full zerker to full knight, you have roughly doubled your damage mitigation while only reducing damage output by around 25%.