Guild Wars 2

Anet should nerf those dire/trailblazer gear being extremely cheesy in wvw.

Because condition builds can stack up crazy toughness/hp using those gear while not sacrificing any offensive stats makes them extremely tanky while doing so much condition bomb

Its not the matter of player skill level or anything.

It is just unfair that power build sacrifice lot of defensive stats to boost up offensive stats while condition build doesnt, which means those builds are extremely forgiving to play even with mistakes

And It synergize crazy with some of profession traits like mesmer PU and it ends up most of people running those kind of build with dire/trailblazer gear in wvw and all they do is trolling people which makes wvw boring to play.

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

MidoriMarch.8067:

It synergize crazy with some of profession traits like mesmer PU

lol

Sarrs.4831:

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

This.

For 1vs1 it might be tricky to get the appropriate to be able to deal with condi bombs, although some professions have ridiculous amount of condi cleansing. But when you start to run in small groups, even in a couple works, condi builds can be shut down very easily.

Also, a big issue against condi builds is not evading condi attacks. People cry about condi mesmer, and yet they eat Confusing Images + clones shattering without blocking/evading, plus attacking normally after the condi bomb.

Once you put a step into wvw, you need to be prepared for everything, and dealing condis is part of it.

Sarrs.4831:

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

This.

As someone who has been running almost the exact same condition Necromancer build for the last 2+ years, things have changed a lot.

Any half decent player won’t be afraid of me. Most Mesmers and sometimes Revenants are easy fights for me because they have bad condition management no matter what build they’re using. Otherwise, everything else laughs at my condition application and I have a ton of it. I can keep a steady stream of 3 – 5 conditions on my target at all times and still, in a lot of cases, it’s not enough to kill them if they know when to cleanse.

I don’t know why people insist on conditions being OP when it couldn’t be further from the truth. Although they can be very strong in 1v1’s if you’re not prepared for it, that’s the only place it’s strong. It’s WvW remember, you can just run from them if you don’t think it’s worth the fight. I run from 100% of every Scrapper I see in WvW when I’m on my LB pew pew Ranger because I simply cannot beat their reflect uptime and sustain. If you’re feeling like you’re being hard countered by certain condition builds, then don’t fight them.

I don’t think it matters how many times I, or anyone else, says that there are plenty enough cleanses available, people will continue to believe condition builds are “broken” when they’re absolutely not. In fact, a lot of them could use buffs because at this point the only thing the majority of them are good for is killing bads and trolling gankers.

Condi Chrono and condi Berserker are the only two condition builds that are very strong. Every other condition build is extremely weak and only capable of killing the unprepared.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Sarrs.4831:

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

If you’re feeling like you’re being hard countered by certain condition builds, then don’t fight them.

This is the best advice you will receive. WvW is not like sPvP. If you cannot win against something, do not engage. Maybe readjust your build with more cleanses and give it another shot – if you play well and cleanse appropriately plus actually avoid skills that apply conditions (just like you dodge any other attack) you might succeed. If you don’t want to adjust your build, then just pass the fight on.

Clearly they are not op that’s why 90% of roamers run condi cheese bs builds… I couldn’t think of anything more boring. Where is the challenge. And to the above posters please make a rev build that can fight all the condi (outside of a 1111 spam fest) that does not use malyx and send to me k thx.

TwistedFate.8705:

Clearly they are not op that’s why 90% of roamers run condi cheese bs builds… I couldn’t think of anything more boring. Where is the challenge. And to the above posters please make a rev build that can fight all the condi (outside of a 1111 spam fest) that does not use malyx and send to me k thx.

Don’t fight it if you can’t beat it. Did you see what I said about not fighting 100% of Scrappers I meet on my LB Ranger? It’s because I know it’s suicide, I’ve tried enough times to know they would have to be terrible to lose.

A lot of condition builds are strong 1v1. If you don’t think you can beat them 1v1, gank them or don’t engage. It’s really that simple. I don’t understand the infatuation a lot of people have with fighting things they know they can’t beat but myself and other roamers prey on your type. You push your luck when you know the odds are against you and we lol because of it.

Sorry that it’s frustrating for you but I promise condition builds are absolutely not OP or “bs.”

So for those complaining about condi builds, do you actually have a problem with the condi’s or just mesmers?

I’ve been running into a lot more tanky power builds than condi. You have warriors, engi’s, ele’s, etc. that have ridiculous sustain but can still burst the hell out of you.

My main complaint is that I have to work 10 times as hard as someone on a condi build. And to the above poster sure I can avoid fighting them I’ll just stand at spawn and not fight anyone lol… I can get on my condi mes or warrior and completely face roll to the point where I’m crying out of boredom.

TwistedFate.8705:

My main complaint is that I have to work 10 times as hard as someone on a condi build. And to the above poster sure I can avoid fighting them I’ll just stand at spawn and not fight anyone lol… I can get on my condi mes or warrior and completely face roll to the point where I’m crying out of boredom.

That’s how I feel on all the perma boon, passive sustain power builds.

Yesterday I spent 10 minutes fighting an engi before getting bored and leaving. It’s like HoT turned every class into the old school cele ele. It used to be 10 minute fights when roaming were pretty thrilling, but now it’s just people running through rotations until someone screws up.

Jim Hunter.6821:

TwistedFate.8705:

My main complaint is that I have to work 10 times as hard as someone on a condi build. And to the above poster sure I can avoid fighting them I’ll just stand at spawn and not fight anyone lol… I can get on my condi mes or warrior and completely face roll to the point where I’m crying out of boredom.

That’s how I feel on all the perma boon, passive sustain power builds.

Yesterday I spent 10 minutes fighting an engi before getting bored and leaving. It’s like HoT turned every class into the old school cele ele. It used to be 10 minute fights when roaming were pretty thrilling, but now it’s just people running through rotations until someone screws up.

I agree with you. It’s both condi and bunker that is boring to fight. The people that play vipers condi are fine but having both 3k armor and extremely high burst from condi is what is op.

Sarrs.4831:

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

Agreed with this sentiment. You can walk away from most condition builds, and they can do nothing really to you. If in the event they try to chase you, they will waste precious cooldowns opening them up to being bursted down.

Condi clear has very limited options on many classes so taking the condi clear you need is sometimes not possible. Even on some the classes that have insane clearing capabilities (druid and dragonhunter) it can still be a problem, after repeated bombs which is common with the surge of condition users. In some matchups it does not matter that you clear an entire bar of conditions, you will have them all right back on you within seconds.

One of the issues with condi in wvw is the sheer amount of application in aoe format. It’s just too many high stacks of application from to many sources. I do agree that players that get caught out should be punished, but the number of stacks on some of these skills/damage is a little bit insane.

Another issue is condition damage and expertise don’t mirror the power ferocity relationship that power builds have. Power based builds are reliant on getting their gains from ferocity from crit chance. It forces the builds to be more rounded out, requiring three stats, instead of two. Which forces them to choose between offensive and defensive stats. Condition damage does not do this, because precision and crit chance are soley extra opportunities for more application. If expertise were properly mirrored the duration increases from expertise would only be applied on crits, but its not, its currently just a raw damage increase. Condition build’s don’t have to round out or choose between stats because of this. Which allows you to pick up defensive stats.

Eval.2371:

Another issue is condition damage and expertise don’t mirror the power ferocity relationship that power builds have. Power based builds are reliant on getting their gains from ferocity from crit chance.

That’s not an issue.

It’s really just an arms race that has gone to extremes since HoT specs and gear stats came out. Yes, condis are trying to dominate roaming because power dominate zerging. Almost every elite spec is power heavy and where it is condi… they’ve often gone power instead anyway. Mesmer is pretty much the only exception. Daredevil, herald, scrapper, dragonhunter, berserker, druid, tempest, reaper they are mostly going insanely survivable power builds because of HoT. This pretty much lead to condis going all out to match it. Which the new condi gear happily encourage. That make them very noticable on the battlefield (oh look, I’m only ticking 4000 damage a second on confusion, how cute).

We aint ever gonna see balance in this. You can delete dire and trailblazer if you want. It wont change anything. The only way condi will be downgraded to “more or less supportive extra damage” that adds upon base power damage is if the entire gear, sigil, rune and trait system change. Good luck with that.

Dire/trailblazer really only becomes an issue on classes/builds that already have a freakish amount of dmg mitigation through stealth, block, teleport and invuln. Anything else, including reapers, can be managed and burst down.

It’s the classes that can now face tank some dmg while avoiding whatever they want + resetting or withdrawing at will while condis continue to tick.

Biggest offenders are mesmers, thieves to a smaller extent, perplex runes.

It gets much worse when they run in packs.

I switched to a condi berserker build because I had to adapt to roaming against servers with greater numbers and roaming groups larger than ours with mostly thieves/daredevils. Before then I ran power Reaper/Berserker, sometimes you just have to adapt.

I did get into a 1v1 with a daredevil who I beat a couple of times, they then switched their build to pistol/pistol and I couldn’t even get to them to apply conditions. I’ve also found recently players aren’t taking quite as much damage from conditions so I’ve changed some geat to include some power, again adapting to the situation.

Unfortunately there’s not much you can do when you come up against two servers who have so many players they can have multiple blobs each and they both double team you. Well, apart from joining another server, hey Anet?

The only profession running condis that give me troubles atm is mesmer. Whoever thought that giving confusion and torment to the same class was funny really need to be shot. Warrior sometimes is nasty but I rarely cross one of these.
Conditions only work on small scale, as the groups get bigger there is just too much removal and resistance rolling that they barely have a chance to be effective.

Funnily enough, condi mesmer is the easiest condi build for me to fight. Although there doesn’t seem to be many condi builds in the first place. Only mesmer, thief, war and necro have viable condi builds and most thief I see play power. I play thief and taking escapist’s absolution and pain response makes it quite easy to fight them. I can kill condi mesmers with some reliability on both power and condi thief. Who the hell uses PU these days anyway? The other traitlines are so much better and pretty much mandatory.

I started playing condi thief not because condi is giving me huge problems (except condi wars). In fact, it’s because of classes like scrappers, cleric eles, tanky druids, staff revs and wars both power and condi. They either hit too hard, have too much sustain or both. Staff revs 1 shot me from 1200 range using some sort of teleport
(not familiar with rev skills) and surge of the mists and is still an uphill battle when the burst fails. Cleric eles are nearly unkillable on d/p and I need to switch to staff if i want to dent its hp. Inb4 just interrupt overloads, most eles I come across take the trait that gives stab on overloads so I have to spend 8 initiative on headshot just to interrupt and not even do any damage. Tanky druids same problem with ele, too tanky and too much healing while still putting out some pressure. Scrappers are a nightmare on both power and condi thief. Either the aoes, reflects or perma retal will kill you. The scrapper also has a lot of passive and active defenses along with passive offense. Easily the hardest class to beat no matter what build I use. Wars too tanky and hits too hard on both power and condi. They also don’t seem to be the slow and telegraphed class they used to be like 2 years ago when I last stopped playing gw2. My point is, stop pointing fingers at condi builds when people don’t take condi cleanse into pvp, when there are so many other powerful power builds like the ones I mentioned and when there are so few viable condi builds left. All classes have viable power builds but only 4 classes have viable condi builds.

MilkCarton.4087:

Funnily enough, condi mesmer is the easiest condi build for me to fight. Although there doesn’t seem to be many condi builds in the first place. I play thief and taking escapist’s absolution and pain response makes it quite easy to fight them. I can kill condi mesmers with some reliability on both power and condi thief. Who the hell uses PU these days anyway? The other traitlines are so much better and pretty much mandatory.

Are u serious?

go to EB and u will see about 80% of mesmers running condi pu dire/trailblazer

MidoriMarch.8067:

MilkCarton.4087:

Funnily enough, condi mesmer is the easiest condi build for me to fight. Although there doesn’t seem to be many condi builds in the first place. I play thief and taking escapist’s absolution and pain response makes it quite easy to fight them. I can kill condi mesmers with some reliability on both power and condi thief. Who the hell uses PU these days anyway? The other traitlines are so much better and pretty much mandatory.

Are u serious?

go to EB and u will see about 80% of mesmers running condi pu dire/trailblazer

Yes, almost all mesmers in wvw use condi. But there are other classes roaming as well not just mesmer. In my experience condi mesmer is easier to fight than other condi builds too so I can’t complain. The only other condi build I see on a regular basis is condi war. Other condi classes are rare or completely non-existent. I also play in borderlands more often and rarely go to EB so my experience may be different from yours.

People roam to find fights, not run away from it. You don’t fix a problem by turning a blind eye to it.

Both power and condi are out of hand but condi builds gets the upperhand in roaming and small scale fights. Just tone down everything and start looking from there.

I play power builds the vast majority of my time, and Condi is nothing compared to invul/mitigation’s impact on fun. Perma dodge, block, invis. If you aren’t facing that, you’re facing stacking mitigation, healing, invuln.

I would rather they take the hammer to the huge amounts of immunities and mitigations they dumped into the game. Anet either doesn’t understand the hole they’re digging into or doesn’t know a way out. Warriors Adrenal Health buff was them throwing their arms up and conceding to the boring route they’re taking instead of addressing how much HoT kittened up fun PvP.

The troublesome condition builds people talk about in this thread are only troublesome because they combine the condi with the mitigation/invuln problem.

Well tbf Condis really shouldnt tick nor be able to be applied whilst someone has invuln up. Once the invuln ends condis should be able to be re-applied and start ticking again.

Power has fallen as Pinko mentioned above due to all the invulns/blocks/100% protection uptime and dedicated healers now in WvW. On top of this abilities like Rite of the Great Dwarf and Bulwark Gyro.

Condis ignore or counter a lot of this mitigation that power has no real answer to. condis still tick whilst u are blocking/invuln. Poison reduces healing effectiveness, condis dont care about your Great Dwarf or Bulwark Gyro. Condis dont care about your 100% protection uptime. Access to resistance is limited and requires dedicated boonshare mesmers. Even then it can be corrupted or banished as it is a boon.

With the amount of boon spam in WvW now you need boonstrip, corrupt boon, banish enchantment and necro scepter auto. No surprises that condi specs best utilise these abilities.

But Anet dont really balance around WvW, the balance changes will only come if condis are out of control in PvP.

What’s up with all these people saying run away from it? People roam to find fights that they enjoy, not just cheese to constantly run away from.

Offair.2563:

What’s up with all these people saying run away from it? People roam to find fights that they enjoy, not just cheese to constantly run away from.

1. If you want to fight it go right ahead, you have options. Just run a build with a stack of efficient condi clearing and high offensive power. If you can’t whip up a build that has a nice fat stack of condi cleansing and the damage output it needs to kill the condi class, you’re not trying.
2. If you want these elements pushed out of the meta and therefore have a WvW filled with fights that you enjoy you have to carry your weight personally and run the high condi-cleanse bunker busters. Depending on your tier and timezone you only need to convince a handful of people to run the builds that will completely stonewall these enemies.
3. Not everyone plays for the same reason. I like to solo/duo roam because solo sweeping camps and denying yak points does more for my server than blobbing does.
4. You’re assuming that you simply ignore them and you never fight them when a lot of builds massively benefit from using friendly or enemy camp NPCs to tip fights in your favor. My build is explicitly structured around exploiting camps full of mobs to turn every fight in my favor.

“This can’t a serious right now. “COME ON NOW” crying about dire /trial blazer Condi mesmers. when we live in world of the permanent evade thief’s and warriors cheesy builds are far more cancer then a dire mesmers. Answer me this how can heavy armor Class me the fastest class in the game????

Anyone who wants to pay just the 250-300 gold for just the maguuma lilies should be able to use trailblazer’s.

Eval.2371:

Sarrs.4831:

these builds are instantly countered when you run appropriate condi removal builds, you can literally ignore them because they have no pressure

Agreed with this sentiment. You can walk away from most condition builds, and they can do nothing really to you. If in the event they try to chase you, they will waste precious cooldowns opening them up to being bursted down.

---

One of the issues with condi in wvw is the sheer amount of application in aoe format. It’s just too many high stacks of application from to many sources. I do agree that players that get caught out should be punished, but the number of stacks on some of these skills/damage is a little bit insane.

Oh so condi spam is a problem but boon spam isn’t? Both of them need to be toned down a lot in competitive game modes. In PvE they are fine as they don’t impact anyone else and allow less skilled players to still enjoy HoT maps. But in competitive modes both boon and condi spam need to be toned down massively

medusashadow.3567:

Answer me this how can heavy armor Class me the fastest class in the game????

They are not. The medium armor classes are the champions of running.

Hesacon.8735:

Anyone who wants to pay just the 250-300 gold for just the maguuma lilies should be able to use trailblazer’s.

I checked the prices other day and I saw how horrid they are… But depending on the profession you don’t even need trailblazer duration so you can just run dire/carrion/rabid and still be very effective. Chronophantasma Chronocancer normally runs carrion for exemple.

Jeknar.6184:

medusashadow.3567:

Answer me this how can heavy armor Class me the fastest class in the game????

They are not. The medium armor classes are the champions of running.

Couldn’t disagree with you more Obviously you never had to chase down warrior before. Warrior are by far the champion at running away.

medusashadow.3567:

Couldn’t disagree with you more Obviously you never had to chase down warrior before. Warrior are by far the champion at running away.

I never seen a warrior outrun a thief or a druid…
You must be fighting super troll warrior with the full run away build GS/Sw+wh with bull’s charge. But that build can’t even win a fight tbh, not worth the chase.

Warriors and necros are manageable. Necros hide by doors and warriors run like hell once stances and endure pain is blown. The condi mes and thief though just make roaming more annoying.

Mes in particular needs to either tone down confusion application or actually nerf confusion altogether. The thieves are just annoying troll builds.

Fix perplex, trapper runes and confusion would probably be enough to reign it in a little without touching the classes. Dire/trailblazer wouldn’t be so bad without hitting from perma stealth and crazy confusion application.

Confusion in particular is anti fight and hits really hard just cycling through cleanses trying to clear it.

OriOri.8724:

Oh so condi spam is a problem but boon spam isn’t? Both of them need to be toned down a lot in competitive game modes. In PvE they are fine as they don’t impact anyone else and allow less skilled players to still enjoy HoT maps. But in competitive modes both boon and condi spam need to be toned down massively

Boon spammers get eaten alive by a bunch of classes including necro and mallyx rev.

Hesacon.8735:

Anyone who wants to pay just the 250-300 gold for just the maguuma lilies should be able to use trailblazer’s.

You’re godkitten right about that, speaking as someone who just did that.

Reh.5986:

Warriors and necros are manageable. Necros hide by doors and warriors run like hell once stances and endure pain is blown. The condi mes and thief though just make roaming more annoying.

Mes in particular needs to either tone down confusion application or actually nerf confusion altogether. The thieves are just annoying troll builds.

Fix perplex, trapper runes and confusion would probably be enough to reign it in a little without touching the classes. Dire/trailblazer wouldn’t be so bad without hitting from perma stealth and crazy confusion application.

Confusion in particular is anti fight and hits really hard just cycling through cleanses trying to clear it.

Get rid of perplexity and revert confusion to its original state. Only doing damage using a skill and not being a passive ticker as it is now.

Reh.5986:

Warriors and necros are manageable. Necros hide by doors and warriors run like hell once stances and endure pain is blown. The condi mes and thief though just make roaming more annoying.

Mes in particular needs to either tone down confusion application or actually nerf confusion altogether. The thieves are just annoying troll builds.

Fix perplex, trapper runes and confusion would probably be enough to reign it in a little without touching the classes. Dire/trailblazer wouldn’t be so bad without hitting from perma stealth and crazy confusion application.

Confusion in particular is anti fight and hits really hard just cycling through cleanses trying to clear it.

this.

there are so many aids build like pu condi mes , thief that spams dodge , death blossom and its so much forgiving to play