Guild Wars 2

what is causing players to have this attitude ? bad match up system by ANET….. why bother upgrading a tower/keep that you know will be flipped sooner or later when you’re playing 10v100 ? profit from it….. like i said, we flip in turn, rinse and repeat…

anzenketh.3759:

Luthan.5236:

If you capture them back again you win. If you lose them you can capture them back more often… so you win more.

And regarding the “end win” with the points ticking: Nobody really cares… cause the match is 1 week and barely anyone plays 24/7 the whole match. So it is not “your” win. Not much incentive to fight for win there. sPvP is different cause you play the whole match(cause it is only <15 mins). You can affect the whole match and then feel good because you won.

Here you feel nothing… cause you might only be able to play a small amount of time… and then not even have time to play at the reset. There is no real “win”. Not a feeling like in sPvP in a tournament match.

The only small wins you feel are after you take a tower or keep(and this feels better if there was a long battle)… but then again if you just lose it and can capture other stuff to get “wins” it doesn’t matter if you lose stuff.

This is exactly how the game should not be played in my opinion. The game was designed to cap and hold not cap and fold. It is this attitude that is discouraging those who want to play the game like it was designed.

My Question is what is causing players to have this attitude? What in the game is encouraging them to have it?

I’m not sure anybody has this feeling, at least I havn’t seen it. I don’t recall at anytime on any map, where people were just instructed to just fold the tower after it was capped. When it comes right down to it, it just doesn’t make sense to keep the tower and waste resources, time, and manpower defending it.

The way I look at it (and I know my views differ from others), your going to lose the tower one way or the other, and as I said earlier, at least 8 out of every 10 attacks, it’s going down. The amount of gold and time spent upgrading this tower was done for what, losing it in a matter of 1-2 min? Where you could be out in the field helping others and collecting loot.

I know fun comes in different forms for people (obviously), I just don’t see how someone can find it fun spending “x” amount of gold, and possibly an hour or more hanging around in a tower only to have it lost in the blink of an eye. I guess some people find sentry and upgrade duty fun, and also attempting to defend an incoming zerg. Frankly though, the rewards and amount of time and gold spent to upgrade it, just isn’t worth it (to me). Time is better spent out in the field winning battles, collecting loot, and flipping towers people spent an hour to upgrade.

Maybe upgraded towers should tick for more points?

Matches are determined by who has the most population.

If you’re not the one with the most population, Generally there is little reason to bother upgrading a tower because it’ll just be taken when you’re not on..or it will be taken while you’re on by a massive zerg who will simply mow through it rather quickly.

Also unless you already have siege in place, you won’t get anything for defending unless you actually kill large numbers of people… which thanks to the down system, means you probably won’t kill them.

People bash warhammer online a lot, but that game had a far better defense system then this game…and defending in that game was actually a very good way to get realm points.

anzenketh.3759:

Luthan.5236:

If you capture them back again you win. If you lose them you can capture them back more often… so you win more.

And regarding the “end win” with the points ticking: Nobody really cares… cause the match is 1 week and barely anyone plays 24/7 the whole match. So it is not “your” win. Not much incentive to fight for win there. sPvP is different cause you play the whole match(cause it is only <15 mins). You can affect the whole match and then feel good because you won.

Here you feel nothing… cause you might only be able to play a small amount of time… and then not even have time to play at the reset. There is no real “win”. Not a feeling like in sPvP in a tournament match.

The only small wins you feel are after you take a tower or keep(and this feels better if there was a long battle)… but then again if you just lose it and can capture other stuff to get “wins” it doesn’t matter if you lose stuff.

This is exactly how the game should not be played in my opinion. The game was designed to cap and hold not cap and fold. It is this attitude that is discouraging those who want to play the game like it was designed.

My Question is what is causing players to have this attitude? What in the game is encouraging them to have it?

It’s the game design. I tried to explain a bit already in my post. I think it is even more a problem with the unbalanced matchups the new matchup system generates. In balanced matchups it might be worth upgrading… if you are much stronger you don’t even need upgrades. If you are much weaker then the other server(s) will just take everything during the night… there is no “let’s upgrade so we can hold with a few people against the enemy zerg until our zerg arrives” if you don’t have a zerg at some night time when it’s 5-20 against 60-80 players.

Sube Dai.8496:

Maybe upgraded towers should tick for more points?

I already suggested this in one of my first posts in this thread. Also anzenketh somewhere suggested to reward the players that bought the upgrade. Makes sense – since there still are a lot of players that wouldn’t even care if it gave more points for your server(team) if they themselves don’t get a reward.

Gilburt.9146:

Having upgrades cost in-game currency may be a gold sink, but it also makes defense even less rewarding for those who do it. Why would I want to spent 1.5 gold to upgrade a keep when it’s unlikely I’ll even make that money back over several hours of defending it?

Also this is a problem. Better rewards might help here. I usually make more money than the repair costs(especially if running with the zerg or doing “small” events like camps, dolyaks, sentries while outmanned – dying not a problem here cause no armor damage). Especially with the newly introduced chests I slowly make a bit of money… and I want to keep it… I mean other players do dungeons and stuff and farm much more money… why should I lose now money while doing WvW? If I started buying expensive upgrades I would lose money(or at least stop making money)…

The only thing I like to buy is the supply upgrade for camp(even though camps are flipped every 5 minutes and no one really bothers defending them – at least not if you fight against a much stronger server and your own zerg is busy doing other stuff instead of going with your 20 people to defend your camp against 80 and get roflstomped – matchup problem here again!). It gives more supply to Dolyaks(and my class also can – very limited but the class I’m playing as main can do it – give some speed boost to the Dolyak… helping others that upgrade a tower to get more supplies there). Also more people can take supplies from the camp if it is at x/125 then… for siege(I have lots of badges and blueprints and already have a gift for legendary and can use the badges for more blueprints).

I let the others buy the expensive upgrades.

If I could pay with badges… maybe I’d pay. They might think about lowered cost and 2nd option to buy with coins+badges(and lower coins… but still coin cost) – and the same time lowering the amount of money you can make from events?

I mean if you say gold sink is needed them obviously at the moment the amount of money you can earn(from events) is balanced to the amount of money you can spent(upgrading and repair cost)… so if they lowered the upgrade cost or removed them it still would be fine if you earned less money(as long as it was still balanced to earn your repair cost).

If you play WvW ’correctly’, that is building/buying/upgrading siege, upgrading towers, and escorting yaks, you will take in about 25 silver an hour and spend 1.5 gold. That is a 1.25 gold lose per hour.

Assuming an average dedicated WvW player plays 2 hours a day and 4 hours on his day off, at 72 hours a month with a 1.25 gold loss per hour, you’re looking at 90 gold per month or $50 worth of gems.

Playing WvW ’correctly’ comes with a $50/month subscription fee, that’s why nobody does it.

How about this? Probably a bit rough around the edges, but maybe the germ of an idea!

- When someone requests an upgrade it goes to an upgrade panel which all on map can view.

- People have one minute to “join in” with the initiator on the upgrade

- People can do this manually or set to automatically join all upgrades up to a daily budget they define. When the budget is reached they can reset if they wish.

- upgrade cost split equally between all contributors

- contributors get a good dose of wXP when the upgrade completes in proportion to their contribution

- contributors get an income in proportion to their gold contribution each tick. (Fortify earns more than merchant!). For sake of argument, say you make a profit if your tower is held for more than 3 hours. If you contribute to a keep that is held all week you could make a good income!

People have an incentive to contribute. The rich can just set to automatically do it but the poor do not have a huge tax. There is also a real incentive to defend the towers you are funding.

Upgrading absolutely is worth-while, and not just from a points perspective. If everything on a map is T1, then you’ll just see a never-ending game of musical-keeps, because things can be captured in less than 2 minutes, and there’s no incentive to defend. On the other hand, when things are T2/3 you often get much more interesting fights, ’cos defenders will feel obliged to defend their waypointed keep and come attack your trebs instead of running off to flip another T1 tower before anyone even knows its threatened.

So even if you don’t care at all for the points game, if you want good fights it helps to upgrade.

The key is to upgrade the right objectives at the right time. Upgrading spawn towers (briar/lake) on your borderlands is almost always a pointless endeavour. Upgrading a camp during primetime is a complete waste of silver. A waypoint in garrison, on the other hand, is incredibly useful. And a fully upgraded camp can be incredibly useful at 4am when there’s only 3-4 guys from each server on the map just flipping camps.

Its also important to pick the right moment. Starting a Fortify upgrade at the start of primetime is a very very bad move. Only upgrade when supply is full, and you know you won’t have much incoming for the next half an hour at least. Also, don’t immediately start reinforced walls after capturing a tower. Get some ACs up first, maybe a treb, let supply refill, and only then start upgrading.

Most experienced WvW players already know to do these things. The trouble is, they can be over-ruled by a PvE scrub coming in with his 10 legendaries and 2000G in the bank deciding to buy upgrades at the wrong time, in the wrong order, and then kittening off again leaving everyone else to deal with his mess. That is what I’d like to see changed the most, 1 person shouldn’t be able to burn 1000 supply and mess up an entire server so easily.

anzenketh.3759:

Luthan.5236:

If you capture them back again you win. If you lose them you can capture them back more often… so you win more.

And regarding the “end win” with the points ticking: Nobody really cares… cause the match is 1 week and barely anyone plays 24/7 the whole match. So it is not “your” win. Not much incentive to fight for win there. sPvP is different cause you play the whole match(cause it is only <15 mins). You can affect the whole match and then feel good because you won.

Here you feel nothing… cause you might only be able to play a small amount of time… and then not even have time to play at the reset. There is no real “win”. Not a feeling like in sPvP in a tournament match.

The only small wins you feel are after you take a tower or keep(and this feels better if there was a long battle)… but then again if you just lose it and can capture other stuff to get “wins” it doesn’t matter if you lose stuff.

This is exactly how the game should not be played in my opinion. The game was designed to cap and hold not cap and fold. It is this attitude that is discouraging those who want to play the game like it was designed.

The game should be played however players prefer to play it, within set rules. And for WvW, they are pretty wide open. If anything, the WvW was designed as a sandbox, not as strictly ruled environment. I’d argue that cap and hold mentality if widely spread, would take air out of WvW dynamics. And we’ve seen many examples of that on server level where one server takes heavily defensive position and play WvW as chess (“the way it was designed to be played” they say) which just killed match-ups for other two servers who largely prefer more open and dynamic battles.

My Question is what is causing players to have this attitude? What in the game is encouraging them to have it?

It’s how they prefer to play and what they find most entertaining and cool about WvW. Which differs heavily among player base.

The problem IMO is with seemingly diminished returns from upgrading structures, but being passive defense, it is (and should be) just a bump on the road for attackers if these structures are not being defended actively. An important bump that may give defenders precious minute[s] to get to the structure, but still just a slight delay.

I remember a while ago spending a lot of time swimming in the BL sea collecting stacks of pearls to cap quaggan spots quickly. There was no personal reward for that whatsoever but I did find it interesting and important at the time. Then I got bored. Should’ve I asked adding some [more] incentive for that activity? Personally I don’t think so.

I was also heavy on structure upgrades and knew a lot of people who also were. We all had this frustration when the whole day worth of your work on upgrading, sieging up and supplying structures would be wiped in minutes by enemy zerg when you hadn’t enough forces on the map or they were not interested to defend “your” precious towers at the moment. That’s a bummer but the problem is within mentality of those who upgrade and then complain, not everyone else.

I think you will find the people stating that they are discouraged about upgrading this is only the tip of the iceberg of the no-one wants to defend complaint. This is just the thing that ArenaNet can make it easier for us and give players more incentive to defend as opposed to hopping on the karma chain.

As for those who say. Do whatever is fun comment. The problem is that it is not the way the game should be played. If there was absolutely no reason to defend no-one would defend due to it is not cost effective to do so. Problem is there is only a small reason to it is it takes too long and costs too much. We defend due to it is the right thing to do. Every time someone puts in a upgrade they feel like they are doing a service to their server. Why do they do this because of pride and respect because it is certainly not for any monetary reward like karma coin or WxP.

True pride or something that you can be proud of being a part of does not come from victory. It does not come from knowledge. It does not come from power or numbers. It does not come from the pounding of the chests or of the crys of battle. It comes from selfless service. Why else is a parent so proud of their child. Or a soldier so proud of their country. Because I know this is why I like to live by the words of the US president JFK and the same goes for everything I take pride in.

I do not ask not what my server can do for me — I ask what I can do for my server.

This is the vision I share. This is what I consider fun. This is what I think a lot of defenders find fun.

The problem is we have been doing this for so long with so little help it is wearing on us. Why? because there is little incentive for players to defend what they have. Players capture then they get bored. They leave. And the defenders are left all alone. The delayed swords come and it is gone.

Can’t solve the problem well so why not lighten some of the burden us defenders have.

Luthan.5236:

…regarding the “end win” with the points ticking: Nobody really cares… cause the match is 1 week and barely anyone plays 24/7 the whole match. So it is not “your” win. Not much incentive to fight for win there.

…Here you feel nothing… cause you might only be able to play a small amount of time… and then not even have time to play at the reset. There is no real “win”.

The only small wins you feel are after you take a tower or keep(and this feels better if there was a long battle)… but then again if you just lose it and can capture other stuff to get “wins” it doesn’t matter if you lose stuff.

It’s unfortunate that that has been your WvW experience. I started WvW soon after launch, on SBI, went to Kaineng for awhile, then came back to SBI. In that time I’ve been a part of WvW communities with a lot of people that care about the score and work hard together to accomplish goals, sometimes over several hours and at great expense in terms of gold and sleep lost, and that’s what keeps me coming back to wvw. Even when we know we’re not going to win the matchup, we find a reason to keep striving for smaller victories.

Last night, for example, we decided to make another push to remove Borlis Pass from our Hills keep on our BL, even though they are a lock for the win this week. They had taken up residence there days ago, devoted people round the clock to make sure the gates were watched, supply depots full, and plenty of siege/counter siege to cover every possible angle of attack was in place at all times. It was truly a fortress, as well as a huge thorn in our side. An insult of sorts, even (though I have no hard feelings about it at all and admire what they did). Over the last few days we spent many hours trying to oust them and failed many times, but finally accomplished our goal. Much gold was lost. We were doorstep-service for badge delivery many times.

I wasn’t there when it finally fell, but I still feel I had some small part in accomplishing that goal because I was one soldier among many in the battle hours before who helped deplete their supplies and tamp down other problems on the map that could have undermined our ultimate goal. I know there are a lot of other people on SBI who feel both relief and pride, even if they have less money than when they started.

So, yes, there are many people who do care and who do want to do what’s best for their server, and not just themselves in terms of loot and WXP. Hopefully you’ll get to experience that at some point.

(Edited for spelling)

So, yes, there are many people who do care and who do want to do what’s best for there server, and not just themselves in terms of loot and WXP. Hopefully you’ll get to experience that at some point.

Of course that’s part of the problem right there….a lot of people that would never otherwise touch WvW go there because there are potential rewards. You see people talk about things like, “WvW Karma Train”, just rushing about flipping and abandoning paper-gate towers over and over.

Heck, even on THIS forum…the WvW forum, for petes sake…I see a lot of people talking about how the score is dumb, how playing to win is dumb, how you should just find the most efficient farming method and let the tryhards get their server nerd points, all that jazz.

So, oh well. Let them worry about how much gold/hour it costs to upgrade a keep.

Bovinity.8610:

So, yes, there are many people who do care and who do want to do what’s best for there server, and not just themselves in terms of loot and WXP. Hopefully you’ll get to experience that at some point.

Of course that’s part of the problem right there….a lot of people that would never otherwise touch WvW go there because there are potential rewards. You see people talk about things like, “WvW Karma Train”, just rushing about flipping and abandoning paper-gate towers over and over.

Heck, even on THIS forum…the WvW forum, for petes sake…I see a lot of people talking about how the score is dumb, how playing to win is dumb, how you should just find the most efficient farming method and let the tryhards get their server nerd points, all that jazz.

So, oh well. Let them worry about how much gold/hour it costs to upgrade a keep.

So what do you expect the defenders to do? It is the playerbase destroying WvW. If you hate the karma train don’t join one help defend. Yes we know it is long boring and not rewarding. That is what needs to change. The game help in that regards by offering more rewards for doing preparation and defending and lowering the cost or burden from just a small group of individuals.

It is because of the people fortifying keeps and towers that make for more drawn out fights like the one that we recently had over our hills. We do not know what BP’s numbers were but because they had it seiged up like crazy we could not just zerg in there and take it.

More of what we are saying is make it easier for the defenders to prepare so that the game could be played the way it was designed. Massive epic battles for towers and keeps.

The question is how to make it easier for the defenders.

So what do you expect the defenders to do? It is the playerbase destroying WvW. If you hate the karma train don’t join one help defend. Yes we know it is long boring and not rewarding. That is what needs to change. The game help in that regards by offering more rewards for doing preparation and defending and lowering the cost or burden from just a small group of individuals.

It is because of the people fortifying keeps and towers that make for more drawn out fights like the one that we recently had over our hills. We do not know what BP’s numbers were but because they had it seiged up like crazy we could not just zerg in there and take it.

More of what we are saying is make it easier for the defenders to prepare so that the game could be played the way it was designed. Massive epic battles for towers and keeps.

The question is how to make it easier for the defenders.

I guess it’s just something we don’t think about in my groups. We take a keep, someone will volunteer to set up siege, someone will stay behind to start upgrades, and we just get stuff done.

It’s understandable if some people have cash issues and don’t want to spend the cash on a questionable investment, and that’s fine. But by and large I don’t see a need for any more rewards in WvW than already exist, and I’m certainly not concerned with my gold/hour when I’m in there.

The main problem is that the usual cookiecutter zerg cant be stopped.
The arrow cart nerf benefited the large servers to a disgusting point.
Its better to hold on to your money and dont even bother with wvw akittens current state.
When the numbers of participants start dropping anet will probably get the point.

Bovinity.8610:

So what do you expect the defenders to do? It is the playerbase destroying WvW. If you hate the karma train don’t join one help defend. Yes we know it is long boring and not rewarding. That is what needs to change. The game help in that regards by offering more rewards for doing preparation and defending and lowering the cost or burden from just a small group of individuals.

It is because of the people fortifying keeps and towers that make for more drawn out fights like the one that we recently had over our hills. We do not know what BP’s numbers were but because they had it seiged up like crazy we could not just zerg in there and take it.

More of what we are saying is make it easier for the defenders to prepare so that the game could be played the way it was designed. Massive epic battles for towers and keeps.

The question is how to make it easier for the defenders.

I guess it’s just something we don’t think about in my groups. We take a keep, someone will volunteer to set up siege, someone will stay behind to start upgrades, and we just get stuff done.

It’s understandable if some people have cash issues and don’t want to spend the cash on a questionable investment, and that’s fine. But by and large I don’t see a need for any more rewards in WvW than already exist, and I’m certainly not concerned with my gold/hour when I’m in there.

And I think that is really where the problem lies there are some servers where guilds preform the upgrades then there are some servers to where individuals get stuck with it.

The problem is not that we are asking to be rewarded for defending. Rewards will get more people to do it which is why we are talking about it. We are asking for the burden to be lessened.

Remove the cost/reduce the cost/make it easy to spread the cost around. How to do that is what we are discussing. How would you lessen the workload for the defenders on the servers that just don’t have the help they need.

Bovinity.8610:

I guess it’s just something we don’t think about in my groups. We take a keep, someone will volunteer to set up siege, someone will stay behind to start upgrades, and we just get stuff done….
…by and large I don’t see a need for any more rewards in WvW than already exist, and I’m certainly not concerned with my gold/hour when I’m in there.

In your groups, is there a rotation where everybody takes a turn staying behind, upgrading, building, running supplies, or does it tend to be the same few people that handle those tasks most every time?

If it’s a fair rotation, where everyone takes their turn, then I’m jealous. In my experience across several months and a couple of servers, however, it’s the same few people who are aware of the importance of such things, and willing to handle them. They might not complain, but I assure you, most of them often feel quite taken for granted, and they may operate at break-even, or a loss.

A few reasons to upgrade in my opinion: Towers let players build siege that can take keeps so holding them does have a strategic value. T2+ towers slow down zergs and significantly slow them down with a modest defense. In the mid and lower tiers, T2+ towers are difficult to 4 man in any reasonable amount of time. Paper doors drop fast with just one ram. Zergs caught between another servers door and zerg are usually at a significant disadvantage.

The crappy part is a lot of players don’t put any money or effort into upgrading towers so they have little incentive to defend it leaving a few lighter in the purse and sometimes a bit resentful of the upgrade apathy.

Straegen.2938:

….

The crappy part is a lot of players don’t put any money or effort into upgrading towers so they have little incentive to defend it leaving a few lighter in the purse and sometimes a bit resentful of the upgrade apathy.

Precisely! Paying for upgrades, running yaks and babysitting structures can feel like a job after a while but I suspect most people try to see it through since they’ve invested already. People enjoy having waypoints, merchants, and the shelter of structures but they don’t care how it’s all maintained.

How about this: Perhaps this is another asinine idea I’m coming up with (it seems I come up with a bunch lol)

How about only fully upgraded towers/keeps/garrisons/SM/Camps tick for points? If it’s not fully upgraded, it doesn’t tick. So if servers are really concerned about points; well it’s time to start spreading that zerg out to upgrade and defend these places. Likewise if you don’t wan’t your enemies getting points, well it’s time you better take over those places before they are fully upgraded.

What do people think? Good? Bad? or Meh?

That’s a little “meh”

I say “meh” because the cost of upgrades(including time) usually falls on a select few. A lot of people just want bags/wxp or just to stroke their ekittens by killing other players whether it’s the zerg or small group/solo flavor. As it is, the actions required for the upgrades to finish are severely lacking in rewards and quite frankly it’s slow and gets boring fast which is why many don’t bother in the first place, simply making paper structures not worth anything won’t solve that. Plus zergs can move fast (those maps aren’t that big), they can just roll through and cap everything with the snail pace of upgrades.

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Replace it with karma.

iCryptik.1496:

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Replace it with karma.

Or lessen the coin cost and add a karma cost to balance it out. I think that idea would lessen the burden but not spread the cost around though. I still think having deposits for upgrades is the best idea. Perhaps have it be a NPC as spawn that you select from some sort of menu.

iCryptik.1496:

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Replace it with karma.

Karma can be converted to coin, via a process of a few steps. It is a revenue stream for me. but since I (and others like me) rarely ride the karma train, it’s not a big stream. We’d still be losing money, essentially, so long as an individual is required to pay some form of currency from their own pocket.

I’m not sure if the deposit system would solve all problems, but it would probably be better than the current system.

slingblade.1437:

iCryptik.1496:

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Replace it with karma.

Karma can be converted to coin, via a process of a few steps. It is a revenue stream for me. but since I (and others like me) rarely ride the karma train, it’s not a big stream. We’d still be losing money, essentially, so long as an individual is required to pay some form of currency from their own pocket.

I’m not sure if the deposit system would solve all problems, but it would probably be better than the current system.

Agreed it would solve some issues though. It would allow people like me saving up for commander tag that is willing to put in a few silver here or there. While not draining me of my entire days earnings.

Just a new idea that came to my mind: We already had the suggestion to let more than 1 player pay for the upgrades.

Now we have often people using the supplies from a keep/towers while it is attacked to repair and others don’t want this.

First we need to make an option for Guilds that claimed to have more control over the supply.

Then it should be possible to make it cost money to take away supply from towrs or keeps(Guilds should be able to change settings affecting this). Even a small guild would be enough – 1 man guild just to claim… and now if that 1 guy can’t buy all the upgrades himself the building gets money that can be used. Could be higher cost the lower the amount of stuff is left to encourage having some safe supplies left and not taking everything…

of course it could be used to grief if really the resources are needed and someone still enables that you have to pay – but the amount of payments could be capped and not cost anything anymore if there is enough to buy all the remaining upgrades(meaning 0 money in the building if fully upgraded and it can’t take any more money for supplies).

Luthan.5236:

Just a new idea that came to my mind: We already had the suggestion to let more than 1 player pay for the upgrades.

Now we have often people using the supplies from a keep/towers while it is attacked to repair and others don’t want this.

First we need to make an option for Guilds that claimed to have more control over the supply.

Then it should be possible to make it cost money to take away supply from towrs or keeps(Guilds should be able to change settings affecting this). Even a small guild would be enough – 1 man guild just to claim… and now if that 1 guy can’t buy all the upgrades himself the building gets money that can be used. Could be higher cost the lower the amount of stuff is left to encourage having some safe supplies left and not taking everything…

of course it could be used to grief if really the resources are needed and someone still enables that you have to pay – but the amount of payments could be capped and not cost anything anymore if there is enough to buy all the remaining upgrades(meaning 0 money in the building if fully upgraded and it can’t take any more money for supplies).

Guilds paying for the upgrades and buffing them is how the game is supposed to work sadly there are a few problems with this.

1.) Guilds with no buffs and that do not put money into the upgrades claim them.
2.) The guild has it claimed has no control what is done with the supply.

Perhaps there could be a voting thing to cancel a upgrade that was not done timely. That would solve #2 I am not sure how to solve #1 though.

Jayne.9251:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Yes.

The supply and time it takes is enough. There shouldn’t be any cost out of the players pockets.

Completely agree.

I know this is a complete no-no resurrecting an old thread, but given the context of current threads, I think it’s interesting to go back and re-read what we were asking for.

In this instance, it’s ambiguous. My own comments are that removing the cost associated with upgrading was a good idea .. but I think the concept behind that was still letting players determine when/how/why.

Mind you, with experience and hindsight, removing costs would have done nothing to deter upgrade trolls. So not sure what the solution should be.

I just know the auto upgrades have not been well received.

Jayne.9251:

Jayne.9251:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

slingblade.1437:

Remove the coin cost from upgrades. Hundreds of supply is enough of a cost already.

Yes.

The supply and time it takes is enough. There shouldn’t be any cost out of the players pockets.

Completely agree.

I know this is a complete no-no resurrecting an old thread, but given the context of current threads, I think it’s interesting to go back and re-read what we were asking for.

In this instance, it’s ambiguous. My own comments are that removing the cost associated with upgrading was a good idea .. but I think the concept behind that was still letting players determine when/how/why.

Mind you, with experience and hindsight, removing costs would have done nothing to deter upgrade trolls. So not sure what the solution should be.

I just know the auto upgrades have not been well received.

Managing trolls is easy…

NcSoft(Anet) needs to fix it where only guild members of a claimed structure can upgrade it. They also need to allow the members with appropriate permission to authorize certain players outside of the guild to do upgrades, also giving this player the permission to pass along his authority to upgrade the guilds structure to someone else when he logs off. This way a guild could approve several players they trust to handle upgrades and hence completely take trolls out of the picture. If implemented correctly ie… structures not claimed can be upgraded by anyone including trolls would encourage WvW’ers to start claiming structures as to prevent trolling. Often times many structures in WvW are not even claimed and that needs to be fixed and this solution addresses that and solves the trolling issues.

Noob.5908:

Managing trolls is easy…

NcSoft(Anet) needs to fix it where only guild members of a claimed structure can upgrade it. They also need to allow the members with appropriate permission to authorize certain players outside of the guild to do upgrades, also giving this player the permission to pass along his authority to upgrade the guilds structure to someone else when he logs off. This way a guild could approve several players they trust to handle upgrades and hence completely take trolls out of the picture. If implemented correctly ie… structures not claimed can be upgraded by anyone including trolls would encourage WvW’ers to start claiming structures as to prevent trolling. Often times many structures in WvW are not even claimed and that needs to be fixed and this solution addresses that and solves the trolling issues.

How do you deal with troll guilds that claim a structure and do nothing? That was an issue prior to HoT.

Jayne.9251:

How do you deal with troll guilds that claim a structure and do nothing? That was an issue prior to HoT.

Fix it to where a guild can take over a structure with the approval of say 3 other guilds permission. This needs to be done anyway. How many times have you wished that you could +5 your keep but can’t because its claimed and the guild that has it claimed has no one online. If a guild wants to take over a claimed structure they should be able to even if the current guild disagrees. Its just a matter of setting up a sort of map voting system to allow it or not, based on what the majority of players that vote want. Care needs to be taken in this implementation there are several ways that even this could be circumvented and cause problems but with proper implementation this issue is solvable. If it were me I would even go a step further and only allow guild members or approved non guild members to place siege in a structure. This helps with trolls that want to use up all of the supply or even noobs that are clueless about placing siege even tho their intentions are good. Guilds should also have the ability to disallow a certain player from taking supply from a structure they have claimed and this ability should also be included with any non members that have been given the permission to manage a guilds assets. Non guild members that have been give these permissions should retain this privilege and should be able to help with any structure this guild has claimed and the right to do this should be perpetual so it doesn’t have to be done every time a new structure is claimed. It would be easy in the guild window to setup a list of approved players that have the permission to help manage a guilds structures. Guilds also should be able to revoke this permission as they see fit.

Noob.5908:

Jayne.9251:

How do you deal with troll guilds that claim a structure and do nothing? That was an issue prior to HoT.

Fix it to where a guild can take over a structure with the approval of say 3 other guilds permission. This needs to be done anyway. How many times have you wished that you could +5 your keep but can’t because its claimed and the guild that has it claimed has no one online. If a guild wants to take over a claimed structure they should be able to even if the current guild disagrees. Its just a matter of setting up a sort of map voting system to allow it or not, based on what the majority of players that vote want. Care needs to be taken in this implementation there are several ways that even this could be circumvented and cause problems but with proper implementation this issue is solvable. If it were me I would even go a step further and only allow guild members or approved non guild members to place siege in a structure. This helps with trolls that want to use up all of the supply or even noobs that are clueless about placing siege even tho their intentions are good. Guilds should also have the ability to disallow a certain player from taking supply from a structure they have claimed and this ability should also be included with any non members that have been given the permission to manage a guilds assets. Non guild members that have been give these permissions should retain this privilege and should be able to help with any structure this guild has claimed and the right to do this should be perpetual so it doesn’t have to be done every time a new structure is claimed. It would be easy in the guild window to setup a list of approved players that have the permission to help manage a guilds structures. Guilds also should be able to revoke this permission as they see fit.

I dont knw if i should take any of your comments seriously after reading this.

BlueBoy.1236:

I don’t know if i should take any of your comments seriously after reading this.

Yeah sounds complicated and from someone that maybe smoked too much weed. I have to say tho, if you stop and really think about this it isn’t that hard to implement. I can hear players yelling now wtf you took over my claimed tower and getting all huffy, but the WvW community isn’t all bimbo’s and this could work easier than it sounds if implemented correctly. Plus it solves several issues all at once… keeps no +5 and guild that has it isn’t online, trolls building siege and wasting keep supplies, structures not claimed because there is no direct responsibility placed on anyone(but with this change a guild truly is 100% responsible for the house keeping), troll guilds that claim stuff and then never upgrade it. The biggest issue in making it work is the map voting system but this could easily be implemented it just sounds weird, but with careful planning and implementation it would be easy and non-intrusive to game play.