Most people agree that zergs in WvW are too strong. Such a large number of people in such a small area. We know that Anet said that they wont increase the 5 man AOE cap due to server limitations. We also know how bad condition builds are due all the aoe cleanses in such a confined area. We have plenty of tools (cc walls) to punish a blobbed up zerg that are hard countered by AOE stability and high stability uptime on the zerg.
I dont think all aoe stability should be removed. However, i think there is way too much stability uptime. I think they should nerf the AOE stability spam (mostly Stand Your Ground). They would need to offset the nerf with a huge buffs elsewhere and im fine with that. Reducing what i like to call as “random” stability would require players to be more aware of their positioning and would be less likely to blob up. This could open up more condition build viability as well as open up the potential for other skills such as hallowed ground/Well of power to make organized pushes through chokes (the one at hills lord room comes to mind).
This is coming from the perspective of an experienced WvW necro. As a necro, we benefit most from aoe stability because we get tossed around like a rag doll if caught out of position. I like to think im looking at this with an unbiased opinion. Just try to picture WvW were zergblobs dont clash with 80% stability uptime. What if those warrior hammer ccs actually tossed 5 people? What if those AOE necro marks actually feared 5 people? People would spread out. You would actually have to bring your own stability and ranged classes without alot of stability would actually play at range opposed to the outer limits of the zergblobbing melle train.
Would be interested in what you guys think. I hope guardians dont take this as a personal attack.
SYG usage is key in zerg combat and given that it can be stripped fairly easily and has a long cooldown, I don’t see that much wrong with how it works now.
Besides, hammer warriors (which I play for the record) already get enough hate for being OP’d; this change would just make them God Mode, even with the upcoming nerf.
Stability, how to counter it: spam immobilize
Result: a zerg rooted and ready for bag-picking
EDIT: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
Here is a list of all skills that apply immobilize. Now you can find a profession with the most effective spammage of this condition and stop the zerg entirely. Personally, i bet the ranger will be your best bet (Krytan Drakehound, Muddy Terrain and Entangle… in theory that should root 15 people max)
Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
SYG usage is key in zerg combat and given that it can be stripped fairly easily and has a long cooldown, I don’t see that much wrong with how it works now.
Besides, hammer warriors (which I play for the record) already get enough hate for being OP’d; this change would just make them God Mode, even with the upcoming nerf.
I agree that SYG is “key” in zerg combat. That one skill alone is impacting WvW zerg battles more than anything else IMO…And thats my problem with it. I disagree on the “long cooldown” and the idea that it “can be stripped fairly easily”. There are way too many cover boons in a zerg to reliably strip stability in an aoe manner. The whole idea of an AOE Stability nerf is to make CC “godmode”. This would make people spread out and lead to better gameplay IMO. You mention that hammer warrior skills would be OP. So would spectral wall, static field, guardian wall, and about 40 other cc abilities. Thats the point. It will change the way the game is played. I understand that SYG is a “key” component with the current melle train, spam 1, AOE condition cleanse, AOE boonstack meta. Maybe making AOE CC “godmode” through an AOE stability nerf is a good thing that will spread people out and lead to better gameplay?? I would like some feedback on the part i bolded though because thats really the question im asking.
Stability, how to counter it: spam immobilize
Result: a zerg rooted and ready for bag-picking
EDIT: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
Here is a list of all skills that apply immobilize. Now you can find a profession with the most effective spammage of this condition and stop the zerg entirely. Personally, i bet the ranger will be your best bet (Krytan Drakehound, Muddy Terrain and Entangle… in theory that should root 15 people max)
Immobolize is a strong condition. However, there are very few classes who can apply it in an aoe manner. Oh, and like i said its a condition. Its gets cleansed quick and hasnt been a sucessful counter to large zergs stacking up. Poor rangers can be useful when using entangle on the backline stragglers though.
you need 2 waves of immob. first wave gets cleansed, second wave hits while all the cleanses are on CD…
If utilizing rangers, you need two groups totalling 8 rangers and 2 guardians in full PVT/Cleric BM Bunker setup with 70% condition duration.
Guardians are needed to spread stability to the rangers, as they cannot rely on their elite/signet. Preferably guardian should be in full clerics to provide maximum healing for the rangers to ensure they survive long enough to pull off the assault.
With some practice, and coordination, 10 players should be sufficient to root 50-60 players for up to 3 seconds. Which will be enough for the warrior hammer train to decimate the enemy.
Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
So let me get this straight. You want to nerf a skill with a 24 second cooldown because its “spammable”? And you want to make CC even more ridiculous than it already is?
Stability uptime in a actual battle featuring two well decent zergs will have an average time of around 2 seconds if people are working their boon-stripping. Most stability is gone by the time you clash as its mainly used to bridge the gap to the opponent. I used to run a full support but I don’t anymore due to all the long-term boons I was giving out were gone in a couple seconds
Lets not get started on the travesty that is immobilize at the moment. Even with condi-cleanses its still the last one to go most of the time. I can’t tell how many times I’ve been rooted for upwards of ten seconds as theives running venom share can distribute immobilize throughout the zerg.
If anything stability is underpowered. Guardians are the only ones who have lots of access to it and even on them it wont last that long unless they have a lot of boon duration. Conditions are what’s out of control now. I don’t really care how things are in zergs, since I don’t run with the zerg. Nerfing stability will absolutely destroy small man roaming groups. Bloodlust was bad enough, and condition spam is ridiculous in small groups especially coming from necros and cond warriors. If anything conditions need to be nerfed and stability/cleansing needs to be buffed.
There is no point in nerfing AOE Stability in WvW. Is constant Stability in large group fights annoying? sure but so is constant CC spam (hint no Diminishing Returns). None of the mechanics or classes are balanced around large group fights everything is “balanced” around 5v5 or PVE (WvW gets both).
So unless Anet gives WvW its own balancing seperated from PVE and sPVP there is no point in nerfing a single part for WvW. Then they would have to nerf CC output by alot mainly on Warriors guess what the outcry gonna be. Because it effects alot more parts of the game.
But at the end of the day Anet said already that they dont invest manpower into balancing WvW like they do with sPvP. And if they do it at some point (which i highly doubt) then they would have to start at the basics.
Ever seen a hammer train hit a disorganized zerg that doesn’t have good stability?
Yeah, it’s not pretty. And I can’t imagine it being fun for the poor kittens on the receiving end. Fights would just come down to which group could stunlock the majority of the other first (like they aren’t already). GW wiki says stability can only stack 3 times, dunno if true but food for thought.
So used to people wanting CC nerfs totally didn’t see a call for stability nerf coming.
Both cc and stability are OP, if used by well coordinated groups on uncoordinated groups. Conditions are only OP if you have no reliable way to cleanse. One is a build issue and the other is a skill issue.
Immobilize isn’t an option as well other movement impairing conditions(cripple,chill) agaisnt a well-rounded zerg(WvW guild groups mostly), because there is enough warhorn warrior in a good melee train, and Charge(warhorn 4) is specifically cleanses movement impairing conditions, so there is no tanking from other conditions aswell. If SYG is one side of medallion, other side is prolly Charge.
My mouth dropped open reading this and I’m going to tell ya why.
Some classes have poor access to personal stability. Mesmers have a mantra and unless you’re specced that way, it turns your utility bar to kitten. Crowd control is waaaay more frequently accessible than stability, something that can be ripped/corrupted even. Earthshaker’s CD is minimal in comparison, 3 of the four Ele attunements on staff have an AoE CC, guard wards and binding blade, immobilize now stacks(yay?) the list goes on. I can see it now, half the time you wouldn’t even have control of your character then you’ll just explode. No thanks, CC doesn’t ever need to be op, it needs to be balanced.
you need 2 waves of immob. first wave gets cleansed, second wave hits while all the cleanses are on CD…
If utilizing rangers, you need two groups totalling 8 rangers and 2 guardians in full PVT/Cleric BM Bunker setup with 70% condition duration.
Guardians are needed to spread stability to the rangers, as they cannot rely on their elite/signet. Preferably guardian should be in full clerics to provide maximum healing for the rangers to ensure they survive long enough to pull off the assault.
With some practice, and coordination, 10 players should be sufficient to root 50-60 players for up to 3 seconds. Which will be enough for the warrior hammer train to decimate the enemy.
Tanky immob Rangers and full cleric boon guards? That’s like all I play in wvw
Seriously immob Rangers make a big difference. People haven’t picked up on this at all yet but I’m pushing it with my builds and guides. Problem is, I’m always the only ranger doing this in the middle of 30-40 people so it’s not as effective. But after the zerg is wiped I’ll do a body count and there are always 3-4 downed on my mud or entangle fields =P imagine 3-4 rangers doing this at a time… Sadly 90% of rangers ride the shortbus
Stability, how to counter it: spam immobilize
Result: a zerg rooted and ready for bag-picking
EDIT: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
Here is a list of all skills that apply immobilize. Now you can find a profession with the most effective spammage of this condition and stop the zerg entirely. Personally, i bet the ranger will be your best bet (Krytan Drakehound, Muddy Terrain and Entangle… in theory that should root 15 people max)
Don’t forget that every Human has access to Entangle through Avatar of Melandru.
They should have limited group stability to fields on the ground. This way when players aren’t on the field they don’t have stability unless they bring it themselves. Should be this for a lot of the group utility.
I agree that cc is already strong. I just think the current blob wars 2 involving guilds running 30% guardians just for stability as a counter to all the cc spam isn’t good gameplay. Also having 100% of the effective builds being focused on power damage is also weak.. My whole suggestion was in hope of finding a way to spread the blob out. As people have mentioned, cc is already overwhelmingly powerful. Would removing AOE stability force the Zerg to spread out more in open field fights to avoid these overpowered cc?
Seriously immob Rangers make a big difference. People haven’t picked up on this at all yet but I’m pushing it with my builds and guides
Just picked up on this in the last couple of weeks after having my kitten handed to me by one and discovering I can actually make a kill or two if I use it in return. Been playing mostly ranger since
