Discussion On How Reward System Works

Discussion On How Reward System Works

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Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

First, to quote from patch note Jan 26, 2016:

Supporting your allies will now contribute toward earning rewards for killing enemies and damaging event bosses. The actions listed below now cause a percentage of the target ally’s damage dealt for the next several seconds to also count toward your participation. In addition to that, damaging an enemy’s defiance bar will also grant you some participation toward receiving rewards from that enemy. In order to discourage AFKing with boon-applying auras, you must still be actively attacking targets to receive rewards from them.

  • Applying boons to an ally (small percentage).
  • Removing conditions from an ally (small percentage).
  • Reviving an ally (large percentage).
  • Healing an ally (percentage scales based on how much healing is given).

This has been a great step made by developers for WvW community, promoting build diversity by providing incentives to play roles other than damage. However there could be still some room for improvement.

One is the mechanic how you share ally’s ‘tagging’(attacking) credits, as stated in the patch note:

In order to discourage AFKing with boon-applying auras, you must still be actively attacking targets to receive rewards from them.

Basically, it means that in order to share ally’s credits from killing something, you have to at least score a hit on it. The credits gained from supporting and healing your ally only serve as a bonus on top of that (if I understand this correctly).

For PvE, I believe such approach is necessary, as we have already been seeing a considerable amount of people AFK farming and such act should be and have been disincentivized. However, for WvW there is really no such concern, since anyone who’s gone AFK in a fight scene is an instant kill for the other team anyway.

While on the other hand, players in support and healing roles often find themselves in situations requiring complete focus on support/healing action instead of attacking. And by dedicating to the team, they gain less material rewards under current credit-sharing mechanic.

Furthermore, weapon types excelling in support, healing, and/or self-sustaining are often bad at tagging (lacking five-target AoE, with long cool-down, slow firing, short range, extremely low damage coefficient and so on). The reward gained by supports and healers is thus even more disproportionate to the influence they actually put out on the field. And all these could be solved simply by lifting the must-tag limit for WvW mode without introducing unintended AFK farm play.

Another thing is the ‘tagging’ mechanic itself. To again quote from the patch note:

…cause a percentage of the target ally’s damage dealt for the next several seconds to also count toward your participation.

(Italic emphasis added by OP)

While damage dealt is a good indicator of a player’s offensive output, it certainly does not represent the entire picture. Many offensive skills are powerful and influential without inflicting any damage upon the enemy. Just take Time Warp for example, which applies ‘Slow’ condition to five enemy targets for a relatively long span. Also, crowd control is another thing not explicitly taken into account, yet it is essential in any PvP scenario. To address this problem, I believe we need to extend the tagging mechanic, from only damage to non-damage-inflicting conditions and control skills. Some classes and builds are absolutely great at these aspects, yet they do not receive rewards proportionate to their contribution to a kill under the current system.

TL; DR:

To conclude, the current reward system does not reward players proportionate enough to their contribution in WvW.

First, ‘tagging’ as the least requirement to share credits for rewards from a killed target is not preventing unintended AFK farm, which hardly exists at all in WvW scenario, while on the other hand crippling down the material rewards gained by support/healing classes.

Secondarily, based on the patch note, the ‘tagging’ mechanic itself does not seem to take non-damage conditions and crowd control into account, while some classes/builds are very effective in the latter two aspects and such aspects are essential, perhaps even more important in any PvP scenario.

A possible way to provide more proportionate reward to supports and healers is to cancel the requirement to attack something as base requirement to receive credits for, and to share credits from, buffing/healing allies. Additionally, on tagging mechanic itself, take non-damage conditions and crowd control into account.

Edit: fixed typo and polished.

(edited by Virtuality.8351)

Discussion On How Reward System Works

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Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

Further suggestion:

With boon-stripping focused classes, most notably the Spellbreaker, coming in the future expansion, whether boon-stripping should be taken into account of the current ‘tagging’ mechanics is another thing to be considered.

(edited by Virtuality.8351)

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Posted by: Eater of Peeps.9062

Eater of Peeps.9062

I love this!

Now, if only we could solve the problem of people being booted from squads for arbitrary/exclusionary reasons and forced to run alongside the squad in zerg not getting punished as a result as to xp/loot/buffs/rezes and instead sharing with the squad rewards/protections/buffs/rezes (squad gets benefit of my heavy zerk damage when I am in zerg but out of squad, but I get no benefit from the measly damage of 15 people in squad also hitting my walloped/downed target when I am forced out of squad cuz I can’t meet the minimum threshold for protections/buffs/xp/loot against the combined total of their contributions to the kill).

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Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

Now, if only we could solve the problem of people being booted from squads for arbitrary/exclusionary reasons

Is this common in your server? Personally I have barely experienced such unfriendly act throughout all these years.

However, I do believe that it is reasonable for a guild group to have their own raid session with guild members only in the squad, so that everything is organized. And I do consider that it is reasonable for a guild group to prioritize the distribution of boons and other support features on guild members first. And for the kick thing, to me it seems more of a communication problem.

My suggestion would be that you join an organized guild yourself and join its raid sessions. Also running a more defensive build could also help. Assuming your group is fighting enemies of equal number (15, as you stated above), there will most likely be gankers lurking around, waiting for opportunities to focus damage dealer (you) down, and you will certainly want to have better survivability on your own.

(edited by Virtuality.8351)

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Posted by: Lord Trejgon.2809

Lord Trejgon.2809

very good thread, and very good suggestions – assuming that the way thing was implemented does not inhibit possibility of splitting it functionality between WvW and PvE……

“-Shield is meant to be broken!”
“-and on this occasion I keep mine plate armors”
discussion about offensive/deffensive playstyles

Discussion On How Reward System Works

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Posted by: Zephyra.4709

Zephyra.4709

Wow I literally just replied to a similar thread.

This had been on my mind ever since they introduced the Nomads stat.

I fully support this in terms of those playing healer heavy builds (minstrels, nomads etc). On my full melee minstrel ventari healbot build I hit like a WET NOODLE and because of the way the build works being melee heavy it’s hard to land hits in the first place despite pumping out 8k+ heals and boons galore to allies. Would be nice to see a change in how the current system works by removing the required ‘tagging’ mechanic – even just for a week to see how it plays out. I think actively and determinedly supporting allies should be sufficient enough regardless whether or not you tag enemies.

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Posted by: Vova.2640

Vova.2640

I can agree with this.
Healing and boonshare players usually end with less bags at the end of the day, but what they do is essential to win.
Healing and applying boons should share participation if the members they buff get kills.

Look at how effective someone is in a full Soldiers set.
Look at how effective someone is in a full Dire set.
Nice balance.

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Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

Wow I literally just replied to a similar thread.

I did not notice that by the time I started this thread, there had been already a thread on the same topic. Unfortunately half of that very thread turned into a sour debate on relation between guild groups and pugs.

Oh well, at least I’m glad that some people still appreciate quality discussion.

This had been on my mind ever since they introduced the Nomads stat.

…because of the way the build works being melee heavy it’s hard to land hits in the first place despite pumping out 8k+ heals and boons galore to allies.

It is exactly this kind of experience that the reward system needs to be improved! The disproportionate rewards to the actual influence dedicated healers put out on the field is sometimes just frustrating and disincentivizing.

(edited by Virtuality.8351)

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Posted by: Lord Trejgon.2809

Lord Trejgon.2809

after putting some more consideration into it there is one thing OP have missed in his analysis.

technically speaking if his changes were approved and introduced we could se a surge of players – like revenants for example following zergs doing literally nothing but running behind them with proper setup and maybe somewhat trying to protect themselves in harsher encounters – maybe.

the input of such player to the blob would be at best arguable but he could efficiently farming WvW while putting much less effort into it than pretty much every damage dealer from said blob. effectively leeching off their effort. Because you know properly distributed boons are vital to a blob, but if blob is supposed to win against other blob proper damaeg output will be needed too.

which may support the argument of why tagging is needed even in WvW.

and frankly I can’t really think of any solution to allow to help those proper boon-givers to benefit more without it being exploitable by some specific builds.

“-Shield is meant to be broken!”
“-and on this occasion I keep mine plate armors”
discussion about offensive/deffensive playstyles

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Posted by: Vegetation.6419

Vegetation.6419

after putting some more consideration into it there is one thing OP have missed in his analysis.

technically speaking if his changes were approved and introduced we could se a surge of players – like revenants for example following zergs doing literally nothing but running behind them with proper setup and maybe somewhat trying to protect themselves in harsher encounters – maybe.

the input of such player to the blob would be at best arguable but he could efficiently farming WvW while putting much less effort into it than pretty much every damage dealer from said blob. effectively leeching off their effort. Because you know properly distributed boons are vital to a blob, but if blob is supposed to win against other blob proper damaeg output will be needed too.

which may support the argument of why tagging is needed even in WvW.

and frankly I can’t really think of any solution to allow to help those proper boon-givers to benefit more without it being exploitable by some specific builds.

This player is already putting some minimal effort by following the zerg, why would he just stand there and do nothing in fights? That seems counter productive, since you want your zerg to win.

Also +1 for an updated tagging system

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Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

technically speaking if his changes were approved and introduced we could se a surge of players – like revenants for example following zergs doing literally nothing but running behind them with proper setup and maybe somewhat trying to protect themselves in harsher encounters – maybe.

Uh…why would anyone ever want to do that anyway?

If one aims to maximize his or her own loots, he would, aside from applying boons to teammates, attack and tag enemies as well. It is just not as rewarding, plus not as fun, to merely run along the zerg, serving as a boon bot without doing anything else productive.

I’m sorry I just couldn’t fathom anyone would ever intend to do that.

This player is already putting some minimal effort by following the zerg, why would he just stand there and do nothing in fights? That seems counter productive, since you want your zerg to win.

Also +1 for an updated tagging system

And I have to side with Vegetation here. You want to win the fight, or else there is just no loot for you. So why would one not try to carry his or her own weight?

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Posted by: Lord Trejgon.2809

Lord Trejgon.2809

technically speaking if his changes were approved and introduced we could se a surge of players – like revenants for example following zergs doing literally nothing but running behind them with proper setup and maybe somewhat trying to protect themselves in harsher encounters – maybe.

Uh…why would anyone ever want to do that anyway?

If one aims to maximize his or her own loots, he would, aside from applying boons to teammates, attack and tag enemies as well. It is just not as rewarding, plus not as fun, to merely run along the zerg, serving as a boon bot without doing anything else productive.

I’m sorry I just couldn’t fathom anyone would ever intend to do that.

well you’d se surprised how lazy people can get.

and then we had some of this already present – the only difference is that they spam 1when enemies are nearby – and being able to get all the loot without even that much would make them not doing even that much.

don’t get me wrong – I don’t understand “why” these people are like this myself – I just know these guys exists and their existance may be reason why we cannot have nice things

“-Shield is meant to be broken!”
“-and on this occasion I keep mine plate armors”
discussion about offensive/deffensive playstyles

Discussion On How Reward System Works

in WvW

Posted by: Virtuality.8351

Virtuality.8351

technically speaking if his changes were approved and introduced we could se a surge of players – like revenants for example following zergs doing literally nothing but running behind them with proper setup and maybe somewhat trying to protect themselves in harsher encounters – maybe.

Uh…why would anyone ever want to do that anyway?

If aiming to maximize his or her own loots, one would, aside from applying boons to teammates, attack and tag enemies as well. It is just not as rewarding, plus not as fun, to merely run along the zerg, serving as a boon bot without doing anything else productive.

I’m sorry I just couldn’t fathom anyone would ever intend to do that.

well you’d se surprised how lazy people can get.

and then we had some of this already present – the only difference is that they spam 1when enemies are nearby – and being able to get all the loot without even that much would make them not doing even that much.

don’t get me wrong – I don’t understand “why” these people are like this myself – I just know these guys exists and their existance may be reason why we cannot have nice things