Guild Wars 2

Each separate corner of EB is themed differently. Same goes for EotM. So why are the borderlands simple, exact, boring clones?

I don’t really understand why effort was put in to name the points differently on the different maps. All that does is create confusion. Frankly, i find the borderlands unutterably boring, to the extent i will usually just leave WvW when my commander relocates to one.

I realize that i am suggesting a major investment of time and resources, but it would go a long way towards revitalizing WvW and re-piquing interest in this ailing game. Heck, you only need to do two of them! just leave the current design for red, and redo the other two to a slightly varying theme. Bonus pints if you structure them so that the maps can be put at a 30* angle, linking up to their respective spawnpoints in EB. MANYLOTS extra bonuspoints if you redo all three maps so that the ‘borderlands’ collectively form a circle around EB.

But please, PLEASE do something. I’m tired of playing that same tired map in triplicate.

Because it would be kinda stupid if it wasn’t balanced equally for each of the three servers, don’t you think?

I know many will dislike this idea, but for the lower tiers, where we simply can’t fill the maps as is, it would actually be beneficial to cut the BorderLands down to a single copy. And just tweak the Citadel and south Spawn points to have same services. Let red keep the Citadel side (they usually need the advantage).

For us down in Tier 8 atm, we would still have problems filling 2 maps (EBG+1 single BL map). Tier8 atm would probably have trouble filling EBG alone. And it would somewhat remove the annoyance of having 3 identical maps.

Obviously, don’t do this for higher tiers that can still field enough numbers.

This should also be fairly cost efficient, as you would only need to do small tweaks and changes to existing map, at worst only move and change some services around and add more to the south spawn points.

At worst, might add another Keep similar to SMC somewhere in the middle (Probably around the Lost Temple Blood-lust), and do something more exciting with the North west+east areas (Skritt and Centaur retirement offices) to make better use of the space of the map.

Another alternative, is to add the old Borderland (with the orbs of power and water/quaggans) as well as EotM as extra maps, and randomly assign them each match as Borderlands, but that would create all kinds of silly (aka fun!) and not be very competitive (Personally don’t think WvW really needs to try that hard to be competitive anyways, so many factors anyways).

On another note, if they are first redoing the BL maps, I really do like the idea of having 3 maps that surround EBG that you mentioned above.

If they truly want to diversify WvW though, they should instead of having 3 identical/similar maps, create a set of different sized and styled maps, so players can go do what they actually want. Example:

EBG = Big fights
Borderlands = Skirmished and havoc squads (might set the user cap on the map, per side, to say 40 to demonstrate this)
New Skirmish map = For roaming and small group fights with smaller objectives
New Siege map = Basically wall to wall fighting, great for GvG’s that like to battle siege.

Etc, you get the idea. Instead of having more maps that encourage the same play style, they should diversify it with different maps, so players can go find the play style they want to.

/rant off.

The border lands are too big for lower populations. It feels like wide open fields and we can spend a lot of time looking for the enemy.

Most of the siege placements are straight forward. It gets a little more interesting setting up garri defense but the attackers dont get much.

I had an idea, can the bl maps be tailored to each tier, to fit with the population. This would also give each tier a unique feel (instead of the current… lower is bad).

joneirikb.7506:

I know many will dislike this idea, but for the lower tiers, where we simply can’t fill the maps as is, it would actually be beneficial to cut the BorderLands down to a single copy. And just tweak the Citadel and south Spawn points to have same services. Let red keep the Citadel side (they usually need the advantage).

For us down in Tier 8 atm, we would still have problems filling 2 maps (EBG+1 single BL map). Tier8 atm would probably have trouble filling EBG alone. And it would somewhat remove the annoyance of having 3 identical maps.

Obviously, don’t do this for higher tiers that can still field enough numbers.

This should also be fairly cost efficient, as you would only need to do small tweaks and changes to existing map, at worst only move and change some services around and add more to the south spawn points.

At worst, might add another Keep similar to SMC somewhere in the middle (Probably around the Lost Temple Blood-lust), and do something more exciting with the North west+east areas (Skritt and Centaur retirement offices) to make better use of the space of the map.

Another alternative, is to add the old Borderland (with the orbs of power and water/quaggans) as well as EotM as extra maps, and randomly assign them each match as Borderlands, but that would create all kinds of silly (aka fun!) and not be very competitive (Personally don’t think WvW really needs to try that hard to be competitive anyways, so many factors anyways).

On another note, if they are first redoing the BL maps, I really do like the idea of having 3 maps that surround EBG that you mentioned above.

If they truly want to diversify WvW though, they should instead of having 3 identical/similar maps, create a set of different sized and styled maps, so players can go do what they actually want. Example:

EBG = Big fights
Borderlands = Skirmished and havoc squads (might set the user cap on the map, per side, to say 40 to demonstrate this)
New Skirmish map = For roaming and small group fights with smaller objectives
New Siege map = Basically wall to wall fighting, great for GvG’s that like to battle siege.

Etc, you get the idea. Instead of having more maps that encourage the same play style, they should diversify it with different maps, so players can go find the play style they want to.

/rant off.

Hey Elrik! I like your idea, and this is pretty the consistent wish for all roamer a (not just Kaineng) on lower tiers. I have many friends whom I duel with and even will roam with even though they are on other servers. Most roamer a would love to see these ideas become a reality, including me!
Best Wishes, Oscuro of Kaineng

Narrrz.7532:

Each separate corner of EB is themed differently. Same goes for EotM. So why are the borderlands simple, exact, boring clones?

Probably because they didn’t have the time to make 3 maps before the release deadline came about. EotM was only finished a year later and they are still missing 1 map to make a full map rotation. It’s just sad to see so little investment go into WvW because it has so much potential, it could really redefine the MMO genre if it had some support.

Hey Narrrz, I also am of the opinion that the borderlands need some love. Here is what I came up with in that regard:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Proposal-PvP-Map-Rotation-for-Borderlands/first#post4554932

The most important thing to remember is that population + coverage = win with the current structure of WvW, and my proposal has some suggestions to alleviate that. It is pretty dull playing on borderlands in triplicate though. I agree completely.

Deli.1302:

Because it would be kinda stupid if it wasn’t balanced equally for each of the three servers, don’t you think?

Hmm yes, can’t risk disrupting the masterfully woven balance that is WvWvW.

the differences in balance in EB are what make it fun. taking each keep is a unique experience, and each confers different battlefield advantages (red overlook’s curtain wall easily in range of SMC)

Symmetry is aesthetically pleasing but functionally boring.

we need a full wvw first … eotm does not help

fix population balance first

all 3 border lands would need to be full or there would be no point

They should delete the borderlands and replace them with a copy of the edge of the mist map. Two instead of 4 maps would make sense with the dwindling WvW population.

Narrrz.7532:

the differences in balance in EB are what make it fun.

In my opinion, it detracts from the fun. As well, in my experience it turns off new players. Just when they learn their home area, then have to go through the confusion of relearning the next wee. that problem would be increased exponentially with your bad idea.

At least it isn’t as bad as :

They should delete the borderlands and replace them with a copy of the edge of the mist map. Two instead of 4 maps would make sense with the dwindling WvW population.

This is a horrible idea in my opinion. the edge of the mist maps are unintuitive, very very restrictive, and would make absolutely no sense as WvW border lands. This would hurt WvW more then most suggestions.

I still am of the opinion WVW should have a PVP/PVE dungeon similar to DAOC’s Darkness Falls.

Well its the mist each world is a copy of another just a bit different of who is there. So try not to think of the BL as 3 maps but one big map with your home bl as the side that is closest to your plan of existences. Well from a story stand point from a real life stand point much like in EB you have better sides to be on and worst sides to have the BL differ you will have better BL and worst BL for that week. It realty is the only fair way to have a map set up for the week.

caveman.5840:

we need a full wvw first … eotm does not help

fix population balance first

all 3 border lands would need to be full or there would be no point

So should we forces ppl to play on your world or should you be forced to play on another world because that IS the only way to make pop. even out and is the worst thing any one can do to any game with a real rvrvr seen.

I dont understand why diversifying maps is such a hard issue, its been asked for, for a long time, the maps are all identical and boring. For those concerned about any server getting an advantage, it would only be cosmetic everything else would be exactly the same. My only issue is they all look the same, why anet. Also Gw1 pvp maps had their own themes, Gw2 pvp maps have their own themes, Eotm sections have their own themes, and every pve map ever made has its own theme and design. Never heard anyone ever complain about any of those and they actually have differences that arent just cosmetic.

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why diversifying maps is such a hard issue, its been asked for, for a long time, the maps are all identical and boring. For those concerned about any server getting an advantage, it would only be cosmetic everything else would be exactly the same. My only issue is they all look the same, why anet. Also Gw1 pvp maps had their own themes, Gw2 pvp maps have their own themes, Eotm sections have their own themes, and every pve map ever made has its own theme and design. Never heard anyone ever complain about any of those and they actually have differences that arent just cosmetic.

This is how I’ve always thought it could be accomplished without compromising balance. Keep the terrain models virtually identical but change the theme skinning. Could even mirror flip the map orientation left to right, or up to down as well to further mask the faux uniqueness.

Any differences will bring unique advantages/disadvantages which people will compensate for and capitalize on, just as now.
You might as well argue that the existing borderlands aren’t balanced, because hills and bay are different.

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

Nokaru.7831:

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

That’s almost certainly the heart of it, but they’re obviously not shy about doing it – even building more or modifying existing wvw maps.
If this was something the community could agree we wanted, i think we’d get it.

The change for a new map is good but they need to change alot of WvW stuff before the production of a new map.
We had the Guild Hall CDi probably this will make some changes to WvW maps and servers

Nokaru.7831:

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

Which they manage every two weeks during LS…

Aeolus.3615:

The change for a new map is good but they need to change alot of WvW stuff before the production of a new map.
We had the Guild Hall CDi probably this will make some changes to WvW maps and servers

This ^.

They could create a plethora of new maps & while that might help somewhat in the short term it does nothing to address the vast majority of the problems with WvW & its design.

Narrrz.7532:

Any differences will bring unique advantages/disadvantages which people will compensate for and capitalize on, just as now.
You might as well argue that the existing borderlands aren’t balanced, because hills and bay are different.

Depends on how well they are designed.

There is also an argument to be made for giving a very slight advantage in layout to the side who the borderland originally belongs to. (at least for some objectives)

Baldrick.8967:

Nokaru.7831:

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

Which they manage every two weeks during LS…

You really don’t think they build new maps every 2 weeks, do you? I’m no game designer (or programmer) but even I know that they build these maps long before they release them in each episode.

insaneshadow.1654:

You really don’t think they build new maps every 2 weeks, do you? I’m no game designer (or programmer) but even I know that they build these maps long before they release them in each episode.

Yeah, i mean, LS has only seen us get three new maps over its entire lifespan (EotM in first season; dry top at the outset of s2 and now, half a year on, a second map)

At minimum i’d say that’s three months development to create a new map, and since LS is doubtless going to require more maps still, anything else would have to be developed either in parallel or to coincide with a hiatus from the LS. It’s by no means a simple proposition, but i still think we can definitely get it – IF it’s what the community wants.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Depends on how well they are designed.

There is also an argument to be made for giving a very slight advantage in layout to the side who the borderland originally belongs to. (at least for some objectives)

I’d say that there will certainly wind up being elements that require patching, however well they are designed. In fact, from that perspective, i’d say they’re better off not even attempting to balance any new maps before release – give players time to find and take advantage of whatever oversights the devs have made, which are severe enough to be considered exploitative (gaining access to a keep or tower without the need to seige it, etc). Once they have that information, they can consider what is severe enough to need outright fixing, and what merely conveys a strategic advantage which one side must learn to counter or compensate for.

I’m all in favour of defensive advantages, though, as long as they’re slight – easier reinforcement for the world that owns the borderland, things of that ilk.

Even Anet’s beloved LS gets only one mini-me sized map every half year. Do you think that even if they wanted to create maps for WvW (which definitely does not seem to be the case) they would be capable of create one for WvW within a reasonable time?

People have been asking for new maps for well over a year. I think it’s just too much to ask/hope for. Ask for something small. Very small.

gennyt.3428:

Deli.1302:

Because it would be kinda stupid if it wasn’t balanced equally for each of the three servers, don’t you think?

Hmm yes, can’t risk disrupting the masterfully woven balance that is WvWvW.

Yea because map design is totally related to the score and/or coverage……………….

Yes it is, it’s part of the whole that is the WvWvW experience. A mode that, at it’s core is not, never was and never will be balanced and the makers say this is intentional(as silly as that sounds). I can’t really think of a way differing borderlands would break this non existent balanced gameplay. What’s the worst that could happen? Someone finds a really convenient cata spot?

gennyt.3428:

Yes it is, it’s part of the whole that is the WvWvW experience. A mode that, at it’s core is not, never was and never will be balanced and the makers say this is intentional(as silly as that sounds). I can’t really think of a way differing borderlands would break this non existent balanced gameplay. What’s the worst that could happen? Someone finds a really convenient cata spot?

Exactly. At worst this is simply a weakness that defenders must compensate for. Or else you simply take that objective as a distraction to break up their defense at the target you really want

Baldrick.8967:

Nokaru.7831:

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

Which they manage every two weeks during LS…

Exactly. Building maps the size of the BGs is not super time-consuming, the problem is that Anet are anally-retentive about trying to get it just right before it goes it, which means maps get made and re-made a number of times. It’s the build-test iteration cycle that takes all the time.

It’s not a particularly satisfying experience for players as there are no changes for a long, long time, but mostly because the maps Anet produce end up feeling rather contrived and overengineered, as every siege location has already been pre-determined and tested, and there is no real discovery factor or strategy evolution.

IMO, maps should be treated like classes and released in more of a rough state and tweaked on a semi-regular basis over time.

Well, i’m glad they gave us a new, novel borderland to play with, but i’m still disappointed that every one is identical…

Narrrz.7532:

Well, i’m glad they gave us a new, novel borderland to play with, but i’m still disappointed that every one is identical…

Yup, it’s new and (for a brief moment) novel, but honestly I’m not sure why the expansion replaced our classic map instead of adding an alternative map.

Baldrick.8967:

Nokaru.7831:

Because building maps is probably a lot of work.

Which they manage every two weeks during LS…

Living Story introduced Dry Top and Silverwastes over the course of about a year, bad example :P