Guild Wars 2

With the current systems in place and even ANet admitting that wvwvw is not fair should we look at a better mass PVP playstyle? Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway, players would prefer to play with friends first anyway…

1) Use an EotM server grouping (colors) and timed battle system – more urgency, less worry about coverage

2) Assign players to color groupings based on population numbers already fighting – so players are distributed to the color with the lowest numbers – if players are in a group or in the same guild the group or guild is assigned together to the color requiring more numbers – a lot less worry about coverage

3) No weekly scoring system, rather put in Guild rewards and/or individual rewards – currency that can get you special armor/weapon/titles/minipets/Black Lion TP tickets/whatever

There would be less server vs server drama I suppose, but really is it something we need? This may also promote better guild play as currently many many players still play as individuals even being part of a large population guild…it may also foster a better GW2 gaming community? Who knows…

Better ideas, scathing remarks and opinions awaited…

quickflash.6314:

/delete thread

Sounds like you are trying to make WvW casual and not competitive. War isn’t fair.

How is WvWvW competitive? To may be 20-25% of the game population – may be – you consider it war, rest of the GW2 playerbase sees it as recreational and casual. War may not be fair but you wouldn’t want to compete in an unfair war either.

But thanks for the scathing remark…I should keep score…that would make it competitive yes?

quickflash.6314:

/delete thread

Sounds like you are trying to make WvW casual and not competitive. War isn’t fair.

Maybe you did not noticed, but this is a game not war!
And my proposals usually try to make it somehow competitive, something which WvW isn’t currently. (Beside the competition in off-time recruitment: “Yeah we recruited more we are the best”)

This is totally just like real war, what with the magic spells, the ability to move massive amounts of numbers by teleportation, the immortality, the unlimited resources, and the way god-like figures swoop in every four months to make changes to certain strategies.

Just like real war!

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

Myth Shaia.4856:

With the current systems in place and even ANet admitting that wvwvw is not fair should we look at a better mass PVP playstyle? Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway, players would prefer to play with friends first anyway…

1) Use an EotM server grouping (colors) and timed battle system – more urgency, less worry about coverage

2) Assign players to color groupings based on population numbers already fighting – so players are distributed to the color with the lowest numbers – if players are in a group or in the same guild the group or guild is assigned together to the color requiring more numbers – a lot less worry about coverage

3) No weekly scoring system, rather put in Guild rewards and/or individual rewards – currency that can get you special armor/weapon/titles/minipets/Black Lion TP tickets/whatever

There would be less server vs server drama I suppose, but really is it something we need? This may also promote better guild play as currently many many players still play as individuals even being part of a large population guild…it may also foster a better GW2 gaming community? Who knows…

Better ideas, scathing remarks and opinions awaited…

Go play EOTM. It’s the casual, unaffiliated, meaningless play you seem to be looking for. Just because you’re not on a well populated server or are refusing to join up and get involved with a WvW guild/community doesn’t mean you can tear apart those of us that have and are a part of that.

You all take the fun out if the forums /depression.

Everyone wants to constantly change this that and the other thing. I this would make it perfect or this would make it perfect. Nerf hammer trains , nerf stealth

Anet has done a great job in wvw. There is nothing without a counter. Might not be the counter you would like or the counter you play but there is one.

The truth is most of it comes to skill and command teams working together. If you are constantly getting rolled in your prime time , change your strategy. If you are outnumbered in open field split up and hit 5 targets at once. If you need to hold a keep siege it up.

WvW is a community and team effort. From the front line fighters to yak guards.

There is no perfect solution or balance that will make it fair. Mostly because some guilds are better than others, some servers communicate better than others. If you just want to roam that is great or be in small fights anet has spvp.

I know myself and most of is love fighting in WvW. There is no bigger satisfaction than catching an enemy force unaware and destroying it with have its numbers

Regards

Myth Shaia.4856:

quickflash.6314:

/delete thread

Sounds like you are trying to make WvW casual and not competitive. War isn’t fair.

How is WvWvW competitive? To may be 20-25% of the game population – may be – you consider it war, rest of the GW2 playerbase sees it as recreational and casual. War may not be fair but you wouldn’t want to compete in an unfair war either.

But thanks for the scathing remark…I should keep score…that would make it competitive yes?

I went from Black Gate to Yaks Bend to kaineng. The unfair fight is the best fight! So, son, get your anti-war slander and go on back to PvE. Wvw is fine as it is. We play to win and conquer. We play for what it is, not what is fair.
The only thing I would change is adding map changes weekly. You get 3 random borderland maps out of a pool of possible maps each week.

oscuro.9720:

I went from Black Gate to Yaks Bend to kaineng. The unfair fight is the best fight! So, son, get your anti-war slander and go on back to PvE. Wvw is fine as it is. We play to win and conquer. We play for what it is, not what is fair.

The unfair fight is the best fight? Hour after hour, day after day, week after week…you see where I am going with this? How long before you change servers again? How long before ANet loses more and more players from the game? Trading on f2p will only hold so long…

The question is, do we still need WvWvW? I don’t think so, not in its current form, the game has moved on, megaservers are coming which will water down server loyalty some more. That it isn’t coming to WvWvW, is ANet hoping that this alone will strengthen server pride?

Paavotar.3971:

This game mode is about resources. In these resources there are a lot of different kind of resources. Players are one, but players are not equal among each others. Some can be considered better resource because one of them maybe is a good player or plays a lot or is a good tactician.

I could write a long long list why this game mode is competitive in a sense and that coverage is one of the key factors in it. But it’s not the only one.

What you are citing are examples of player skill. Player skill is precisely the thing that we want to make a difference in a competitive format. It is the one thing that the game is not meant to compensate for. By contrast, population imbalance has nothing whatsoever to do with player skill, and the degree of its impact is determined largely by the design of the system.

But I’ll agree that an EotM-style system is not the answer – not because the idea of alliances is bad, but because EotM removes far too many choices from the player, which in turn makes the socialization you speak of impossible. How are you going to form a community when you can’t even decide which alliance you represent, which map you play on, or even whom you play with? It just doesn’t happen.

It’s only if you create a system where players retain those choices that things get interesting.

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

ManaCraft.5630:

But I’ll agree that an EotM-style system is not the answer – not because the idea of alliances is bad, but because EotM removes far too many choices from the player, which in turn makes the socialization you speak of impossible. How are you going to form a community when you can’t even decide which alliance you represent, which map you play on, or even whom you play with? It just doesn’t happen.

It’s only if you create a system where players retain those choices that things get interesting.

So, suppose ANet expands the Squad system and the Commander system, they really need to. Like-minded players join the Commander’s squad and they queue up for a map. They go in as a squad. Make the squad have a player limit and you can even create multiple squads from the same server and queue up for the same color map. Essentially you could create ‘raid squads’ that have specific objectives and roles to play.Good enough?

The choices you mention, socialization and community building….join the same guild, what’s stopping you from sharing a TS? Make a friends list…

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

That’s the point you’re missing, the ones who don’t karma train are the ones who are so strongly against the EotM style format. They’re the ones who have developed a community, who spend all day working together with players and other guilds. If you take that familiarity away, take away the ability to play with the same people that may not be in the same guild, then you lose what WvW really is. I have been on 2 servers, both with the same people. My first server was very shut in and lacking community, whereas my current server has a very open and friendly community. Even though my guild is the same people, the experience is night and day and I would never trade what I currently have for anything that remotely resembles EotM.

Yes, we do need it. I don’t want to be just another number and another guild in a faceless community on some megaserver. This may be fine for pve, but for world it is the worst idea and would be something that would make me consider a new game. My server has a good core world community, are we all in the same guild? No. What you propose says that I will no longer be able to play with the people I choose to play with unless we are in the same guild, same group. I for one don’t want it, if you want EoTM play, then by all means go to EoTM where you can be just another “face in the crowd”. Not so much about server pride, but community loyalty.

Terrible idea. Especially since we already know the EoTM format is a massive fail.

Not sure what kind of response to put here.

The original post is based on (incorrect) assumptions and the generalized idea put forth duplicates multiple posts in other threads. ANet has already indicated EoTM was a mistake.

- on Blackgate since headstart. My guild and I play for and with our server community in both PvE and WvW.

Srolo.5208:

Go play EOTM. It’s the casual, unaffiliated, meaningless play you seem to be looking for. Just because you’re not on a well populated server or are refusing to join up and get involved with a WvW guild/community doesn’t mean you can tear apart those of us that have and are a part of that.

Cool, another scathing remark.

That you fail to see that GW2 itself the whole game is actually casual in form – as ANet have themselves mentioned – makes your remark more than just scathing.

That you assume EotM is more casual and meaningless than WvWvW is simply your opinion and such a poor one – thanks for insulting all the players that enjoy EotM. Unaffiliated play? Tell that to the players in there that gel and work together and become friends, those from the same server learn to play better together too.

That you assume I am not on a well populated server and/or that I refuse to join up and play WvW and join the community doesn’t say much for your opinion either. That you think your community will be torn apart because of a change to how WvWvW works…aww….make a new community or, wait go play TESO….

PS: I don’t like jump puzzles, don’t believe they belong in the game. There are players that do enjoy them.

I don’t advocate their removal.

DaMikenatr.7041:

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

That’s the point you’re missing, the ones who don’t karma train are the ones who are so strongly against the EotM style format. They’re the ones who have developed a community, who spend all day working together with players and other guilds. If you take that familiarity away, take away the ability to play with the same people that may not be in the same guild, then you lose what WvW really is. I have been on 2 servers, both with the same people. My first server was very shut in and lacking community, whereas my current server has a very open and friendly community. Even though my guild is the same people, the experience is night and day and I would never trade what I currently have for anything that remotely resembles EotM.

Ok, I guess I don’t understand karma training then….to me all of it is karma training whether you take objectives or defend them. I suppose I am more interested in an even battle pvp rather than zerg-roflstomp-pvd your opposition and feel ‘proud’ about your awesomeness.

Further down I mention about expanding guild groups to Squads, are ppl so scared of change and perhaps improving the game as a whole? Not saying that this would do that but it could be a step in the right direction. If you are of the opinion that WvWvW is fine as it is, go read some of the 100s of posts suggesting that it isn’t.

I am not saying this is how it must be, it’s an idea. An idea that can use expansion on and various improvements, not simply be shut down and brushed aside and rudely insulted. Is that what the GW2 community is like now?

goldenwing.8473:

PS: I don’t like jump puzzles, don’t believe they belong in the game. There are players that do enjoy them.

I don’t advocate their removal.

Yeah, cos jumping puzzles aren’t competitive? Your analogy is moot. Did I say I didn’t like WvWvW anywhere? Nope. Did I say there are somethings not quite right with it? Yes. Did I suggest some ideas to try and improve on these not quite right items? Yes.

I did find out that so many really competitive non-casual war-minded WvWvW players feel there is nothing wrong with WvWvW as they see it and that’s fine. Don’t be insulting about it.

Oh wait, my bad…I did ask for scathing remarks, kitten !

Myth Shaia.4856:

DaMikenatr.7041:

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

That’s the point you’re missing, the ones who don’t karma train are the ones who are so strongly against the EotM style format. They’re the ones who have developed a community, who spend all day working together with players and other guilds. If you take that familiarity away, take away the ability to play with the same people that may not be in the same guild, then you lose what WvW really is. I have been on 2 servers, both with the same people. My first server was very shut in and lacking community, whereas my current server has a very open and friendly community. Even though my guild is the same people, the experience is night and day and I would never trade what I currently have for anything that remotely resembles EotM.

Ok, I guess I don’t understand karma training then….to me all of it is karma training whether you take objectives or defend them. I suppose I am more interested in an even battle pvp rather than zerg-roflstomp-pvd your opposition and feel ‘proud’ about your awesomeness.

Further down I mention about expanding guild groups to Squads, are ppl so scared of change and perhaps improving the game as a whole? Not saying that this would do that but it could be a step in the right direction. If you are of the opinion that WvWvW is fine as it is, go read some of the 100s of posts suggesting that it isn’t.

I am not saying this is how it must be, it’s an idea. An idea that can use expansion on and various improvements, not simply be shut down and brushed aside and rudely insulted. Is that what the GW2 community is like now?

EoTM and EBG are imo probably bad examples to use. EoTM was I believe created as a hold over for those waiting in queue, yes? Which I believe is the reason that nothing you take there contributes to the overall server scores, and the only thing the winning team receives is supplies for their home bl. EGB for me is where I go when my guild is not running, and I want larger group fights with friends from other guilds. Do I agree that world needs a change? Yes, but not merging servers. The way servers are matched/ranked needs the overhaul not the communities. The swiss style matching I think might be a possibility as it can more quickly adjust for server population changes than the current Glicko system, but would still need some changes to make it viable.

/scratches head

/looks for “insulting” and/or “scathing remarks”

/finds none

/repeats first post (this thread is a duplicate)

/points at Obsidian Sanctum JP

/leaves thread

/wishes the OP good luck

Adahilia.3678:

EoTM and EBG are imo probably bad examples to use. EoTM was I believe created as a hold over for those waiting in queue, yes? Which I believe is the reason that nothing you take there contributes to the overall server scores, and the only thing the winning team receives is supplies for their home bl. EGB for me is where I go when my guild is not running, and I want larger group fights with friends from other guilds. Do I agree that world needs a change? Yes, but not merging servers. The way servers are matched/ranked needs the overhaul not the communities. The swiss style matching I think might be a possibility as it can more quickly adjust for server population changes than the current Glicko system, but would still need some changes to make it viable.

Is it really just the scoring system? If it was just that that could adjust for the imbalances in WvWvW population now, surely, surely ANet would have done something about it already? That they tried to change things up a little by introducing EotM instead….what does that mean?

Myth Shaia.4856:

So, suppose ANet expands the Squad system and the Commander system, they really need to. Like-minded players join the Commander’s squad and they queue up for a map. They go in as a squad. Make the squad have a player limit and you can even create multiple squads from the same server and queue up for the same color map. Essentially you could create ‘raid squads’ that have specific objectives and roles to play.Good enough?

The choices you mention, socialization and community building….join the same guild, what’s stopping you from sharing a TS? Make a friends list…

I don’t see why you would need some elaborate system involving commanders and squads. Just let players choose which alliance (color) they want to play for.

EotM fails because communities cannot form due to the random nature of the format. If you want alliances to work, you have to allow the players the same degree of freedom that they enjoy under the current system – no exceptions. Then you’d be in business.

Myth Shaia.4856:

With the current systems in place and even ANet admitting that wvwvw is not fair should we look at a better mass PVP playstyle? Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway, players would prefer to play with friends first anyway…

1) Use an EotM server grouping (colors) and timed battle system – more urgency, less worry about coverage

2) Assign players to color groupings based on population numbers already fighting – so players are distributed to the color with the lowest numbers – if players are in a group or in the same guild the group or guild is assigned together to the color requiring more numbers – a lot less worry about coverage

3) No weekly scoring system, rather put in Guild rewards and/or individual rewards – currency that can get you special armor/weapon/titles/minipets/Black Lion TP tickets/whatever

There would be less server vs server drama I suppose, but really is it something we need? This may also promote better guild play as currently many many players still play as individuals even being part of a large population guild…it may also foster a better GW2 gaming community? Who knows…

Better ideas, scathing remarks and opinions awaited…

I agree entirely. Without Worlds, WvW could be changed into a more permanent area where there are no scores or resets or any of this PPT guff. I don’t know how matching up between sides might happen, but it’s feasible that some kind of choice on the part of the player can decide their allegiance, rather than (now reference-less) worlds.

Myth Shaia.4856:

Adahilia.3678:

EoTM and EBG are imo probably bad examples to use. EoTM was I believe created as a hold over for those waiting in queue, yes? Which I believe is the reason that nothing you take there contributes to the overall server scores, and the only thing the winning team receives is supplies for their home bl. EGB for me is where I go when my guild is not running, and I want larger group fights with friends from other guilds. Do I agree that world needs a change? Yes, but not merging servers. The way servers are matched/ranked needs the overhaul not the communities. The swiss style matching I think might be a possibility as it can more quickly adjust for server population changes than the current Glicko system, but would still need some changes to make it viable.

Is it really just the scoring system? If it was just that that could adjust for the imbalances in WvWvW population now, surely, surely ANet would have done something about it already? That they tried to change things up a little by introducing EotM instead….what does that mean?

Yes it is the scoring, most people who have built their community and stay with that community do it because it is theirs. What you suggest takes away from what people want. People play on low tier servers because they like the play, same for silver and gold. There have been numerous posts about it. EoTM was not a map introduced to “change” world, it was put into place to mollify those that were sitting in queue for world maps. While you may think it is an easy thing to just up and change the scoring system, it really is not such an easy thing to do otherwise I’m sure it would have been done already and I believe why we are seeing the different set ups for season competition.

ManaCraft.5630:

I don’t see why you would need some elaborate system involving commanders and squads. Just let players choose which alliance (color) they want to play for.

EotM fails because communities cannot form due to the random nature of the format. If you want alliances to work, you have to allow the players the same degree of freedom that they enjoy under the current system – no exceptions. Then you’d be in business.

Well, Squad grouping would ensure that all players – regardless of guild/even server perhaps – would get into the same alliance/color as long as that alliance/color has population space open for it.

Choosing the alliance/color would not address population imbalances, suppose everyone wants to be green…Perhaps grouping as a squad or super-squad could take priority over individuals queuing and individuals would queue according to alliance/color preference and be assigned the relevant one if there is still population space available.

Myth Shaia.4856:

Choosing the alliance/color would not address population imbalances, suppose everyone wants to be green…Perhaps grouping as a squad or super-squad could take priority over individuals queuing and individuals would queue according to alliance/color preference and be assigned the relevant one if there is still population space available.

You can read this if you like, my answer to you is essentially the same. Whereas smaller populations are more volatile, larger populations will inevitably tend to average out. Plus, there are ways to mitigate the impact of excess players.

Adahilia.3678:

Yes it is the scoring, most people who have built their community and stay with that community do it because it is theirs. What you suggest takes away from what people want. People play on low tier servers because they like the play, same for silver and gold. There have been numerous posts about it. EoTM was not a map introduced to “change” world, it was put into place to mollify those that were sitting in queue for world maps. While you may think it is an easy thing to just up and change the scoring system, it really is not such an easy thing to do otherwise I’m sure it would have been done already and I believe why we are seeing the different set ups for season competition.

Guess we won’t really know what is easier unless a dev pops on and shows us the numbers; creating a whole new map like EotM or changing a scoring system? ANet has known from the start that Glicko was never optimized for this method of scoring and many players have pointed it out too.

Tbh, this Swiss-style round robin will have minimal impact on this season’s league where there are large discrepancies between server coverage…let’s take T2 for example. There is one mega-zerg server in that tier with pretty much 24hour coverage. They will win every match up regardless. The Swiss style works when there is a close to evenly-matched situation for everyone participating. It could work well if every server had 24hour coverage, then any little inconsistency in server performance would have a real impact on the outcome.

Mind you, who knows, that mega-zerg server’s players may all come down with a big bout of flu which keeps them in bed for days to weak to play computer games, sore throats that no-one can say anything on ts, or they all get sent to summer camp, hehe.

WvWvW has been around 4 months short of 2 years now. Population imbalance has been around 4 months short of 2 years now. ANet’s contention that things will balance/even out has happened in the top 3 server positions. That’s it. Players complain about server merging? It has happened under another guise.

ManaCraft.5630:

You can read this if you like, my answer to you is essentially the same. Whereas smaller populations are more volatile, larger populations will inevitably tend to average out. Plus, there are ways to mitigate the impact of excess players.

Hmm, thanks for that. 2 interesting things come from all this…

(1) the devs have already made a decision based on some form of empirical research – trying really hard not to be sarcastic there
(2) quite a few other players are already raising this issue that I have – and also receiving fewer constructive responses

So, I suppose this can just be closed then.

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

EOTM feels like pointless and useless endeavor to me. I mean its fine to run around killing people, but i prefer to run around killing people for a purpose. Have actual objectives you know, and a reason to take them aside from karma training

You may have missed the actual objective of EotM then…and it has its own objectives too, and when you win, you get a oooooh, ahhhh supply drop in your Borderlands keep…I mean that’s really sad as a prize…really. And I do not see how karma training in EotM is any different from karma training in WvWvW or EBG…

ManaCraft.5630:

But I’ll agree that an EotM-style system is not the answer – not because the idea of alliances is bad, but because EotM removes far too many choices from the player, which in turn makes the socialization you speak of impossible. How are you going to form a community when you can’t even decide which alliance you represent, which map you play on, or even whom you play with? It just doesn’t happen.

It’s only if you create a system where players retain those choices that things get interesting.

So, suppose ANet expands the Squad system and the Commander system, they really need to. Like-minded players join the Commander’s squad and they queue up for a map. They go in as a squad. Make the squad have a player limit and you can even create multiple squads from the same server and queue up for the same color map. Essentially you could create ‘raid squads’ that have specific objectives and roles to play.Good enough?

The choices you mention, socialization and community building….join the same guild, what’s stopping you from sharing a TS? Make a friends list…

you are missing my point, EOTM is self contained, but the people there are not people i have any affiliation with, we really arent working for common purpose other than self profit and the thrill of the kill. In WvW you take objective so that you can win, and help the people who also work towards the same goal. You work directly against the other team.

Yes EOTM has objectives, but none of them actually helps the organization i have joined much. Nothing that happens in EOTM really matters. This is why it bores me. I fully get why people prefer it, and it does what it does fine, but it should not replace WvW, its best as it is, something people do when WvW is too full, or they just want to have some good natured mass pvp.

Being green team is meaningless to me. green team is different every day, green team is my enemy one day and my pal the next. Green team is different in every single instance. I cant really root for green team they are just a random mob with no permanence or consistent traits or charachteristics.

phys.7689:

Being green team is meaningless to me. green team is different every day, green team is my enemy one day and my pal the next. Green team is different in every single instance. I cant really root for green team they are just a random mob with no permanence or consistent traits or charachteristics.

Being overrun 4:1 or even 7:1 is meaningless to me too. I feel like a bag not even another face. The primary issue is to not turn WvWvW into EotM that would be redundant, it is to turn it into something better than EotM but better than the current imbalanced system that is WvWvW.

Myth Shaia.4856:

(1) the devs have already made a decision based on some form of empirical research – trying really hard not to be sarcastic there
(2) quite a few other players are already raising this issue that I have – and also receiving fewer constructive responses

So, I suppose this can just be closed then.

I wouldn’t go that far. What I meant by that last remark was simply that the devs had the perfect opportunity to implement a change with their upcoming megaserver system, but chose not to. In a recent CDI thread that primarily dealt with the topic of population balance (which I recommend reading if you haven’t already), the number one concern of players resistant to change was that of community – and a.net cited precisely that reason for megaservers not affecting WvW at all. So yes, my educated guess is that they have made up their minds about it (or haven’t found a satisfactory method). That doesn’t mean you should stop trying to persuade them otherwise, only that the rest of us have tried and – seemingly – failed.

And yes, there have been quite a few threads popping up from time to time attempting to deal with population imbalance in one way or another. Suggestions vary, but they’re essentially all attempting to address the same problem.

Myth Shaia.4856:

phys.7689:

Being green team is meaningless to me. green team is different every day, green team is my enemy one day and my pal the next. Green team is different in every single instance. I cant really root for green team they are just a random mob with no permanence or consistent traits or charachteristics.

Being overrun 4:1 or even 7:1 is meaningless to me too. I feel like a bag not even another face. The primary issue is to not turn WvWvW into EotM that would be redundant, it is to turn it into something better than EotM but better than the current imbalanced system that is WvWvW.

the best thing to do is solve the problems then.

WvW should have weight classes determined by server activity, people should essentially play within their weight class, if they begin to get a higher average population they move up the very next week.

Server transfers should have specific time period, and people should have to work toward server affiliation, to get credit for server linked rewards, like season rewards, WvW bonuses, etc. They can make server transfers from highly overpopulated servers to underpopulated servers reduce the earning time or perhaps give mercenary bonuses, of course, they should be only offering a number of slots that the server seems to need to be on par for that weight class.

Anet should begin heavily promoting server identity and make wvw world more of a long term thing rather than just a place you go for fights.

People should select their WvW allegience later on(or you can go in and level 1, and then select server), and with more information in game of what the server stats are like.

i believe the true culprit is matchmaking and server stacking for rewards and easy transfers.

I also think that they should break the day into 3 parts and award 3 match points per day. They should also award special points for performing well versus the odds (the amount can be determined later) For example if a server performed well against 3 times the number, they get some extra value, However if the server with 3 times the number also outplayed them, they will get the bonus points instead.

what im getting at is they would be better off changing the systems that mess up WvW rather then essentially deleting it.

itt:

people that care about PPT.

Myth Shaia.4856:

oscuro.9720:

I went from Black Gate to Yaks Bend to kaineng. The unfair fight is the best fight! So, son, get your anti-war slander and go on back to PvE. Wvw is fine as it is. We play to win and conquer. We play for what it is, not what is fair.

The unfair fight is the best fight? Hour after hour, day after day, week after week…you see where I am going with this? How long before you change servers again? How long before ANet loses more and more players from the game? Trading on f2p will only hold so long…

The question is, do we still need WvWvW? I don’t think so, not in its current form, the game has moved on, megaservers are coming which will water down server loyalty some more. That it isn’t coming to WvWvW, is ANet hoping that this alone will strengthen server pride?

I have been on Kaineng for about a year now and I can assure you I am not leaving because 1) Awesome small group skill level (2) Community is very nice. Trust me, fighting outmanned is some of my favorite things to do. In season we have had zergs, but I just walk into a different BL when that happens.
As for mega servers, I personally don’t like them just to start off with because it is destructive to creating a server community, so every map will be like an overflow. However, for the people who wvw frequently, this will not affect us at all, only PvE. I don’t know how it will change WvW, but I am certain that either way, I will still love Kaineng WvW and it’s play style. It is competitive, and if you take it away, you will lose about 25% of the community who only play wvw now, including an approximately 15% for those who play it every so often because PvE will begin to bore them into oblivion. Taking out WvW will deteriorate the game MUCH faster than the normal progression of a game

oscuro.9720:

Taking out WvW will deteriorate the game MUCH faster than the normal progression of a game

Sheesh, it’s not about taking out WvW, it’s about improving it so that there is some sort of population balance. It can still be unfair but let’s have it be unfair over something other than coverage. Suppose each server had to have a conscription type of system, a ‘standing army’ that could only be a specific size and could only be used for WvWvW… do the WvWvW’ers love to play so much that they would spread themselves out equally across the servers? Or do they confuse server pride and community with selfishness and greed?

So many things to comment on while reading this! I’m sure I’ll miss most them that came to me. First, changing WvW to what you first suggested would make me stop playing it. I personally like all facets of the game, but I enjoy WvW because it is a true team competition. I am a horrible solo player, but my server does a great job working together. This is part of the reason I have never transferred.

I have enjoyed the leagues. Our server…yes the SERVER comes up with strategies to help us win. This does necessarily mean the match, either. It means if we know it’s gonna be a rolfstomp, we have a priority and it’s a win if it happens. Like last year when we fought SoS, we knew their night crew was gonna PvD everything so our goal was to keep our N safe. You know what…we did it til a mishap on Thursday night. I call that a definite win. Our morale was huge because we managed that.

I’m a little confused by a couple of your statements. “Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway…” This makes it sound like you are looking down on those that have transferred but then just now you said “do the WvWvW’ers love to play so much that they would spread themselves out equally across the servers? Or do they confuse server pride and community with selfishness and greed?” Take the full sentence and it sounds like you are saying that server pride is selfish and greedy yet reading it alone it says the opposite.

What do you really think about server pride? Personally, my server is like an extended guild. I can pop into WvW and find names and toons I know to play with, even when I do not have a guild on. Those guilds that have left, for whatever reason, I feel as if they have just moved away…like a job transfer. I often tease them that they need to come home.

As for the casual comment. Yes, the game in general is a casual concept and WvW can be casual..but the scoring and matches make it inherently non-casual. EotM is totally casual. I feel like EotM is what Anet thought WvW would be when they were selling us on GW2 before and during Beta’s. A place where people pop in, kill a few invaders, take a few objects and hop back out to PvE. I do not think they fully grasp how fun and addicting it would be for a lot of players and how much the score would matter to people.

New maps would be fun. New strategies to come up with for new terrain. I get being upset about population imbalances. I mean, we pretty much know who was gonna win Silver and Bronze leagues and yeah, having it totally be a surprise would be great but it is no different than knowing that one server has a better skill set and strats so will stomp another. I do not know exactly should be done but I do know I do not want what has happened to my son’s school where competition is totally gone and everyone gets a participation ribbon. Cause really…how bland.

Anet opened a huge bag of worms when they allowed free transfers to last for so long after release, and then continued to allow paid transfers up until this very day. The cost to transfer really isn’t a deterrent to people who play this game for WvW and seek a competitive edge — or who perhaps simply just want a more active battle ground to play on.

What they should have done was cap the servers faster and let them all gradually fill up to roughly equivalent populations.

However, at this point, there really isn’t any way to undo what has been done (short of a full server reshuffle, which will never happen). You can’t really make any huge modifications without killing the server-vs-server competitive spirit that is the driving force behind why many people enjoy playing this game or else breaking apart some of the legit communities of players who have put a lot of work (and money in some cases) into banding together with the common goal of working out WvW strategy together.

Myth Shaia.4856:

1) Use an EotM server grouping (colors) and timed battle system – more urgency, less worry about coverage

Hey OP! Let me ask you a few questions:
1) Have you ever looked at the score and said to yourself “These guys are night capping/ they outnumber us 3 to 1, yet I still want to fight for my homeworld and win” ?

2) Have you ever been double teamed so badly that you lost all your towers in EB and yet you kept banging your head against the keyboard for 3+ hours with nothing to go on except not wanting to give your enemies the satisfactions of taking your keep as well?

3) Have you ever scouted a keep solo for 1-2 hours + upgrades and siege out of your own pocket?

4) Have you ever woke up at 5 in the morning to help out the night crew ?

5) Have you ever been on a server-wide TS ?

6) Have you ever recognized the names of random people/ guilds and realize that you’ve been playing with them for a year and a half?

7) Have you realized that WvW is not GvG and most of the heavy lifting is done by pug commanders?

Guilds come and go, the core group of a server is formed out of commanders and players who fight only for their world, not pve rewards/achievements/quaggans.

8) Have you realized that you will never get a good “server-wide army” unless you have something to hold them together like a common server name to fight for (arbitrary colors don’t count) ?

I guess I could mention the huge amount of RP leadership Vizunah Square had. Their main alliance used stuff like posters and nationalist propaganda to whip their pve zerglings into a frenzy against other servers – it was meta as hell (too bad the match-up forums disappeared). Plus from an RP point of view servers are parallel worlds so it would make no sense to merge them outside the Edge of the Mists.

If Most of your answers are no then I recommend you get more involved in your server community instead of lamenting about standard stuff like coverage, numbers, mercenary guilds, etc.
I want my WvW to be personal and dramatic not bland and generic red vs blue vs green.

Best of luck!

Mint Rubber.6543:

Hey OP! Let me ask you a few questions:

1) Actually I have no problem with night capping…it’s night capping to you but it’s someone else’s morning, as to wanting to fight them more, certainly in the full knowledge that it would be a useful endeavor – ie: the server populations are balanced and server efforts and results promote a closely fought match-up. Currently that is not the case for many servers – not every server has equally sized blobs, like the top 3 for example.

2) Sure, happens often enough in our tier, again the double team does not mean monstrously huge server population imbalances and coverage but that is not what is happening right now because when I say huge I mean one server having 60+ blobs on all 3 maps concurrently over 24 hours vs two other servers that can may be field 20-30 to cover all 3 maps over the same 24 hours.

3) Scouted sure, upgraded? Not directly, I send my superior siege that I make to the commanders.

4) Ahh no, sadly real life interferes with that kind of event.

5) Gosh, who hasn’t – too many I spose? – TS has crashed a few times on us alrdy.

6) Sure, you recognize the regulars – voices on TS and their guilds/toons

7) That’s up for debate, right now there is more GVG that happens in WvW than ever before – people are bored.

Mint Rubber.6543:

Guilds come and go, the core group of a server is formed out of commanders and players who fight only for their world, not pve rewards/achievements/quaggans.

Aww, insult the PVE community that makes up more of the server population than you care to consider. Give bigger egos to your commanders as well, sure they no doubt play an important role but you seem to have WvWvW tunnel vision.

8) Not true, over the ages, ideologies have proved more than enough of a common “something” to fight over/for. That is what a server name is right now, just a “something”. If ANet gives you another “something” that differentiates you from “something” else, what makes you so sure you won’t fight for it? Not to mention the manner in which players have transferred for this League season – and last year’s one as well – which really shows server pride, tsk. Sure, some players are loyal to their servers and stay, but others and that’s a lot of others are in it for better rewards for themselves, not the server.

Mint Rubber.6543:

Plus from an RP point of view servers are parallel worlds so it would make no sense to merge them outside the Edge of the Mists.

Hallo, megaservers will put an end to that in PVE already…it’s more than likely a first step ANet intends to use to change/improve WvWvW on some level.

Since most of my answers are yes and/or discount your other points – which only seem to assume that I don’t play WvWvW, that I play on a shambles of a server that is disorganised or doesn’t have a community to speak of – really your wall of text was just your tunnel-visioned opinion. The only point of yours that stands out is your last sentence and that is based solely on believing that it would only be about generic colors. Have you people no imagination?

Mint Rubber.6543:

I want my WvW to be personal and dramatic not bland and generic red vs blue vs green.

Because being blobbed 7:1 is so personal and dramatic? More impersonal and anti-climactic.

Best of luck to you too!

I have learned something else from this post and other similar ones. When you post a topic like this, so many of the ‘debunkers’ just assume that the OPs have never played WvWvW before, that they are new to the game, that they are on a low population server where everything must suck community-wise, that they are ‘casual’ players because they don’t live in WvWvW.

Newsflash! Your assumptions are just that.

However, I post this watching the server slowly taking the first steps – I hope not – towards becoming, what so many assume the server I am on, to be already.

Myth Shaia.4856:

I have learned something else from this post and other similar ones. When you post a topic like this, so many of the ‘debunkers’ just assume that the OPs have never played WvWvW before, that they are new to the game, that they are on a low population server where everything must suck community-wise, that they are ‘casual’ players because they don’t live in WvWvW.

Newsflash! Your assumptions are just that.

However, I post this watching the server slowly taking the first steps – I hope not – towards becoming, what so many assume the server I am on, to be already.

More important is why post if you aren’t prepared for or willing to accept opposing views to what you propose?

Want to play wvw? Want to win? Play with working builds, play with good guilds!
If you play with 20 random dudes and everybody are ranger, upleveled, berzerker dont want to win because you are just an other free lootbag to me.

Serenity.8246:

I’m a little confused by a couple of your statements. “Not to mention a severe lack of server loyalty anyway…” This makes it sound like you are looking down on those that have transferred but then just now you said “do the WvWvW’ers love to play so much that they would spread themselves out equally across the servers? Or do they confuse server pride and community with selfishness and greed?” Take the full sentence and it sounds like you are saying that server pride is selfish and greedy yet reading it alone it says the opposite.

You have taken 2 phrases from different posts/replies and tried to put them into the same context, explains the confusion you feel. When players change servers in a free transfer window for the sole intent of guaranteeing a win in the league for themselves primarily – that the server they overloaded also wins is pretty much irrelevant to them – points to my “..severe lack of server loyalty..” Not to mention, those players will likely not stay on that lower tiered server as has been proven in the past. It’s a general statement but also proven, which again points to a lack of server loyalty. Which in turn points to selfishness and greed…is it server pride moving/keeping players on overpopulated servers or just that they want easy rewards? Should we not be proud about what WvWvW is first, and then server pride?

Serenity.8246:

What do you really think about server pride?

In my experience I note that server pride is a fleeting concept that too many players use to their own advantage and purpose. Yes, there are other players that don’t and that is good for the game but until your server has been targeted and damaged by these server band-wagoners, you may not understand. I myself have not changed servers once.

Serenity.8246:

Yes, the game in general is a casual concept and WvW can be casual..but the scoring and matches make it inherently non-casual. I do not think they fully grasp how fun and addicting it would be for a lot of players and how much the score would matter to people.

Competition is not competition when something like population imbalance overrides everything else. That is the inherent problem here. Changing WvWvW does not mean it will no longer be competitive or that it will be any more casual than it already is but it should address a very skewed issue that is population imbalance and match-ups. In fact, evenly balanced population match-ups are far more competitive.

Serenity.8246:

I mean, we pretty much know who was gonna win Silver and Bronze leagues and yeah,…

At this point in time, yes you can say we know who is going to win. Last year everyone thought the same thing about SBI in T2. They were wrong because there wasn’t just one heavily imbalanced server. FA won but not because they had 24 hour coverage, they had commanders and a server that you described above, working together to minimize the impact of SBI’s coverage.

Serenity.8246:

but it is no different than knowing that one server has a better skill set and strats so will stomp another.

Certainly, however, one can learn how to play better from other servers that beat you with higher skill and better strats. This still makes it worthwhile, but losing a match-up simply because overwhelming numbers – and not even decent players – override any type of offense your server attempts.

Case in point: yesterday we held SMC, sieged and fully upgraded. May be 20-30 players – that’s how many we have at that time. In comes the overpopulated imbalanced server with 60+ players. We kill about 2/3 of them – yes they are that bad that some even die to the guards _ – some of us die and have to run back, so about 10-15 left to fight 30 or so. Keep is contested because they have so many numbers to spare and we can’t contest their WP because we cannot spare the few we have. Outcome? I suppose we were being competitive because we managed to stand up against so many.

Adahilia.3678:

More important is why post if you aren’t prepared for or willing to accept opposing views to what you propose?

Opposing views are not what are being asked for, the opposing view is to leave everything unbalanced as it is. I asked for scathing remarks and opinions/ideas/improvements.

Opinions imply a reasoning as to why things shouldn’t change. So far the reasoning it shouldn’t change is server pride – which seems a strong reason but really has shown to not be that strong -, and community…and communities can be rebuilt from scratch easily enough. They are not there just automatically.

No real purposeful reason to keep things imbalanced as they are, have been raised. A lot has been said about server pride and community….really is that it? Think as a game designer who wants to keep a playerbase for the next 5-6 years…server pride and community will do that? Really? More players leave games because they are heavily imbalanced in some way. What happens when your server pride results in there only being 3 servers to fight WvWvW against every week for a lonnnnnng time. It’s already happened…T1 guilds and servers burnt out…players left the game…server pride and community didn’t keep them there.

Further, the topic of the post is there for everyone to read…it is a question that implies an intelligent, thought out response, not silly assumptions about how I play or what kind of server I play on.

Myth Shaia.4856:

Adahilia.3678:

More important is why post if you aren’t prepared for or willing to accept opposing views to what you propose?

Opposing views are not what are being asked for, the opposing view is to leave everything unbalanced as it is. I asked for scathing remarks and opinions/ideas/improvements.

Opinions imply a reasoning as to why things shouldn’t change. So far the reasoning it shouldn’t change is server pride – which seems a strong reason but really has shown to not be that strong -, and community…and communities can be rebuilt from scratch easily enough. They are not there just automatically.

No real purposeful reason to keep things imbalanced as they are, have been raised. A lot has been said about server pride and community….really is that it? Think as a game designer who wants to keep a playerbase for the next 5-6 years…server pride and community will do that? Really? More players leave games because they are heavily imbalanced in some way. What happens when your server pride results in there only being 3 servers to fight WvWvW against every week for a lonnnnnng time. It’s already happened…T1 guilds and servers burnt out…players left the game…server pride and community didn’t keep them there.

Further, the topic of the post is there for everyone to read…it is a question that implies an intelligent, thought out response, not silly assumptions about how I play or what kind of server I play on.

Apparently server pride and community loyalty is important enough that Anet has decided not to change it:

“Though we are moving to our new megaserver model in PvE, it’s extremely important to us that we maintain the level of identity and competition in WvW that we’ve established since the release of Guild Wars 2. The entire game mode is based on battles between different players aligned to the named worlds, and as such we have no plans to remove this concept from WvW.”

I play for fights and to play with the people I choose to play with as do many others. Not all of those people are in my guild, nor are they all on my friends list, but they are on my server; according to your proposed changes I would not be able to do that. It also removes any identifying factors for servers and guilds and mainly focuses on the individual. Many people like to feel that they are a part of something and like to be recognized for the things that they do. What you propose seems very short sighted on how people work and what they want in regards to community and seems to focus more on fast rewards and pretty ribbons for everyone. WvWvW is not fair and most who do it on a daily basis know and understand that. I believe that reps from Anet have even stated that WvWvW is not intended to be “fair”.

I wish you well on your lobbying for fairness, but I for one hope I never see it happen.

Adahilia.3678:

I play for fights and to play with the people I choose to play with as do many others. Not all of those people are in my guild, nor are they all on my friends list, but they are on my server; according to your proposed changes I would not be able to do that. It also removes any identifying factors for servers and guilds and mainly focuses on the individual. Many people like to feel that they are a part of something and like to be recognized for the things that they do. What you propose seems very short sighted on how people work and what they want in regards to community and seems to focus more on fast rewards and pretty ribbons for everyone. WvWvW is not fair and most who do it on a daily basis know and understand that. I believe that reps from Anet have even stated that WvWvW is not intended to be “fair”.

I wish you well on your lobbying for fairness, but I for one hope I never see it happen.

Apparently you have not read other replies where I attempt to address the issues you raise. I mention that one could expand on the rather limited Commander & Squad system, which could allow you to create a squad with your friends, whether they are on the same server/guild or from other guilds/servers and you could all queue as a squad and enter the same battle area/arena/alliance/color together. Also I suggest queuing up as a guild/server squad with the same result of all being put into the same battle area/arena/alliance/color together. BUT, you are not put into a battle area/arena/alliance/color that is already full or near full, you are put into a battle area/arena/alliance/color that needs more players to create a competitive match-up. You want to be identified while playing? Since ANet does not allow for more than one character name across the whole game, it cannot that hard to have them display your name and guild tag to your allies instead of “Badlands Invader” , in the same way as your identity is displayed to other players in WvWvW – I suppose that might be to prevent in-game griefing of some sorts.

Adahilia.3678:

What you propose seems very short sighted on how people work and what they want in regards to community and seems to focus more on fast rewards and pretty ribbons for everyone

In the same breath, so are you short-sighted. The attention span of the average computer gamer is not what it used to be. It’s fine saying you will play this game forever or for a long time or whatever time period, but truthfully most everyone will only play this game for as long as their server and community is populated and as long as their effort matches the reward they think they have earned. Some players want rewards with no or next to little effort. That is not what I am advocating. For most players, just being able to be in a competitive match-up for a change will be more important.

I have also mentioned that ANet themselves say WvWvW is unfair and that’s obvious, what I am saying is that it is imbalanced population coverage-wise. ANet said themselves that this would redress itself naturally…it has not.

I agree, something does need to be done. However, rotating alliances I do not think would work very well if I understand you correctly. To me there should be 3 alliances and you pledge to that alliance and are bound to it. You cannot change ever. Limits would have to be in place in order to even out the alliances as well which means this alliance is full you can only chose the other two. Not sure how exactly it would work just throwing something out there in a quick thought while at work

A further idea to keep server pride alive, much as Guild representation works at the moment, as long as you are representing your server in any battle, your server gets points for your actions and achievements. You could have a league season like now, but there would be competitive balanced match-ups and regardless of which battle area/arena you play in, as long as you have your server representation active, your server is gaining points. You could have a longterm goal with a decent/useful reward and at the same time the standard current tower/keep reward system.

To those that will bring up wanting to play with server friends and guild mates, read the other replies on the 1st page that makes some suggestions about being able to do just that.