Guild Wars 2

Stiv.1820:

It’s pretty bad when people regularly start attacking nearby mobs when they are starting to loose a fight. You actually have to turn and focus the mob down first or else you have to deal with a mob rally.

I’ve come to terms that downed is here to stay it just needs changes.

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

+1… couldn’t have said it better myself. This dude knows what’s up.

Draygo.9473:

Incorrect. It takes skill to handle downstate.

You might personally dislike it, but its there and you have to account for it. If you fail to account for it, you are failing that skillset.

Removing downstate removes depth from the combat system. Sure it might be depth that you do not like, as you seem to think it means easy comebacks and more advantages to players you should defeat, but I think of it as another tool in my basket.

The truth is the downed state limits the skill a person can have.
The fact is while the downed state exists you will never be able to perform to your full potential.

If I can beat 5 people without downed state yet lose to them when the downed state is implemented would you say that I am not skilled or the mechanic benefits the numbers advantage?

But downed state IS an integral part of the combat system, so you need to adjust your tactic to work with it, just like how you can adjust your tactic to fight against different classes and their quirks. You can’t say, remove all the classes because otherwise I am so skilful I can win 1v5s anytime if everyone was the same class. The mechanic introduces a new element into the combat system that you need to consider if you want to come out on top.

Raincrow.1840:

Rhyis.7058:

Raincrow.1840:

That’s fair…. And I’m glad you guys enjoy yourselves, but if you don’t care about how you’re perceived in the forums, you can’t really argue when others percieve you in a less than flattering way.

We beat CD in the WvWy’s. Maguuma is the peoples champion.

What??

Forum popularity contest.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/WvWy-s-2012-who-was-your-favorite-opponent-in-2012/first

Tulisin.6945:

So you were fighting 1v3, successfully downed two of the three opponents on your own, and you’re being “punished” because you couldn’t finish off all three?

Doesn’t sound to me like the downed state is negating your skill, sounds to me like you did exceptionally well against unfavorable circumstances, but that numbers still won out over skill, as it should.

Well really it was 2v1 as the gameplay from the thief wasnt amazing spamming hs and 90% of his init just to catch me then dropping from a shatter.

Draygo.9473:

Often when i’m in an outnumbered situation ill be looking to control the enemy team to prevent them from rezzing, while preventing downed players from healing themselves. Rarely i go for invun stomps. Often my damage is enough to finish them off while i’m preventing the lone enemy from attempting to res. If someone attempts to res you can shatter burst him again, hitting both the downed player and the live player at the same time.

If your in a 3v1 situation its usually best to just book it, unless you severely outmatch them or can groupshatter them because they carelessly clumped. In other RPG games there are healers, and you walking into 2 dps and 1 healer would get you killed without you doing much in downing anything unless the healer was dumb.

In the situation you outlined I would have gone for an quickness invun stomp, then retreated out of the fight. if you didnt tw then the thief is going to tp on you and stop the stomp. You ended up burning tw anyway and not getting away, so you misplayed your hand, which is a demonstration of a lack of skill.

Part of the skill in wvw is learning when to fight, when to stomp, when to flee, or when you are forced to fight to the death and how to make the best out of it.

Interesting assessment, i feel hindsight is 20/20, there was no guarantee the tp stomp would work, just like there was no guarantee i could drop a player later in the fight with it. What is set in stone however is the fact that tp and distortion are some of my trump cards on long RuT’s and im using them to defeat a defeated player(in my eyes).

As i stated im not against removing the mechanic, but having someone rally, do 100% dmg with full init, access to all slot skills and the only penalty is a loss of a little health seems overly generous.

Dreztina, the same Dreztina from Bossiney?

Bunzy.8674:

Downed state is not part of being skillful. Its part of wasting abilities and time on people that should already be dead.

If you are skillful enough to take on 5 players you should not be punished for it which is what’s currently happening.

“Should already be dead” by what standard? Certainly not GW2’s. That is like saying “We’d totally have taken that keep in another game that didn’t have arrow carts”. Whatever game you’re imagining where combat works like you think it should without this “extra” stuff getting in the way doesn’t actually exist, you’re not playing that game.

And if you are skillful enough to take on 5 players but lose because of the downed state, you’re not skillful enough to take on 5 players, not in the context of the game you’re actually playing.

Bunzy

If I can beat 5 people without downed state yet lose to them when the downed state is implemented would you say that I am not skilled or the mechanic benefits the numbers advantage?

Both. There’s no shame in not having enough skill to overcome mechanics, especially when those mechanics are partially in place to act as a check on raw skill. You could use your argument against literally any mechanic in GW2. “I could’ve beat those 5 guys if they didn’t use their heal skills, heal skills are diminishing my skill and support zergs!” But the fact is those mechanics do exist, they’re possible to overcome with skill, but you can’t just ignore them on the basis of not wanting to learn how to fight them.

The downed state is literally a numbers check on utilities since it’s just trading 1 vital skill per finisher. That’s the “depth” and “complexity” of the downed state system. It’s a system that was designed for PvE, and for a really, really good reason. That really good reason doesn’t extend to WvW, and is actually a detriment to the potential that WvW had.

Simply adding a system on top of a pile of systems does not mean it’s contributing anything worthwhile, so I wish people would stop pretending that removing it is inherently a loss.

Chorazin.4107:

Dreztina, the same Dreztina from Bossiney?

No.

Pinko.2076:

The downed state is literally a numbers check on utilities since it’s just trading 1 vital skill per finisher. That’s the “depth” and “complexity” of the downed state system. It’s a system that was designed for PvE, and for a really, really good reason. That really good reason doesn’t extend to WvW, and is actually a detriment to the potential that WvW had.

I would argue that the downed state serves an equally important role in WvW as it does in PvE via placing incentive on battle lines and working as a large group. Reviving downed allies is the main way that a large group of people can support each other, especially now that beneficial abilities are limited to a 5-man cap. Without the downed state there is no real incentive to stick together and push as a line, no real concept of over-extension or falling back behind friendly lines to recover. It also acts as a check on AE capability by ensuring that coordinated AE can’t instantly knock people out of a fight (although two staggered spikes can).

It also offers a terrain-based advantage in WvW, due to the aforementioned play based around bringing NPCs into the fight to rally off of.

A player should be OUT OF COMBAT to res people.

Bunzy.8674:

Opc.4718:

Downed state is a mechanic you have to figure into your strategy if you’re going against a larger force, and it’s part of being “skilful”. It’s very much possible to come out on top while outnumbered and it’s definitely not a broken mechanic, so if you’re trying to propose to remove such a feature because you can’t figure out a way to do so, maybe you should take another look at your own skills. Downed state is an important feature of gw2 combat, so instead of wasting time campaigning to remove it, work towards overcoming it.

Downed state is not part of being skillful. Its part of wasting abilities and time on people that should already be dead.

If you are skillful enough to take on 5 players you should not be punished for it which is what’s currently happening.

Bull. This argument isn’t about 5 vs 50 and we all know it. A hyped up team of 5 isn’t going to win against 50 people because they will just get steamrolled, even if they take 15 or 20 people with them, they will still get crushed by weight of numbers, AOE etc.

This whole argument is by the small scale PVP / ganker crowd. You all want to play glass cannon thieves/warriors/mesmers and spike down stragglers, people on the fringes of the battle who are concentrating on some other target, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

WvW is a broad scale wargame where there is a MEANT to be a diversity of skill levels. Not to mention pings/graphics cards/time invested. Its a war, not Bruce Lee fighting his opponents 1v1 as they step into the ring.

This whole skill argument is a strawman, its about spiking and ganking.

Happy 2013 Everyone!

OP is just the world’s smallest violin. What you’re advocating isn’t skill, but mindless burst dmg. Down state is fine and adds a nice element to the game, save the ally, focus on enemy, or flee. Besides, you’re too narrowly focused. WvW is skill + tactics + strategy altogether.

- Skill is for your individual 1v1 encounters. Correctly adjusting and anticipated who you are fighting and how you should fight. If you really want more of this, go play sPvP.

- Tactics is for your 2v2 – 10v10 encounters. Down state plays a HUGE role in these fights. Getting rid of it just means mindless burst dmg zergs in the future, and then its a race to see who can smash buttons faster. Then there are combo fields, call target, and elites skills in which a mere 1 or 2 successful coordination can turn the battle.

- Strategy is for your 20+ player battles. This is where you lay field siege, take high grounds, hold and distract, lure and flank. Vent/Mumble is a must for this to work nicely. This is what separates high tier servers from lower ones. Because these battles change the map presence of servers.

OP seems to be way too focused on skill only. If what you wished for came true, let me tell you what will happen. Everyone will be a Thief, then team up with another Thief, and you can burst down almost anything. No down state now, so instant death. C/D or SR and then shortbow away. Ironically, it would turn to be more skill-less of a game.

honestly man downed state adds another facet of the game… trying to get people down and rallied is huge in large battles

love it

SniffyCube.6107:

honestly man downed state adds another facet of the game… trying to get people down and rallied is huge in large battles

love it

Downed just changes the tactics the player can use. It is part of the game.

I would have won the 1v3 if there wasn’t downed state. I would have won if I could spam skills like a thief, I would have won if I could have more phantasms, I could have won if my hp and armor were higher. I would have won if I had a Legendary. I would have won if I had ele speed. I would have won if my cool downs were dramatically shorter.

But, we cannot, fortunately, all be Gods, because even the gods fought and lost. Their downed states are a little bit different.

I have painfully learned that when I am against a group of foes the odds are against me. Is it heroic, yes. Is it a test of skill, yes. Will I survive, often the answer is no. I do it for time, diversion, distraction, or boredom. Often, I’ve messaged about foe strength, location, actions first.

Downed state is undoubtedly a mechanic meant to deal with burst, since there are no healers in the game. Get rid of it, and you just have burst assist repeat at nauseam, with little defense against it from most classes, yeah that’s real complexity and skilled play.

Would be just another crutch for stealth based classes, that already have a broken mechanic (culling) hugely in their favor.

Not to mention Chuckles and his buddies are all sitting there on Teamspeak together all with preassigned roles and assist macros prewired for coordinated stunning and bursting against pugs who don’t know each other from Adam.

“Thief 1 cast Shadow refuge”
“Warrior 1 cast speed”
“Gogogogogogogogo”
“Target 1 – Ele – Thief 1 Basilisk”
“SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE”
“Target 2 – Mesmer – Thief 2 Basilisk”
“SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE”
“MORE DOTS, MORE DOTS, AWAY FROM DA WELPS!!”
“Thief 3 – Shadow Refuge”
“Runrunrunrun”
“Yo dawwwwwwwg, we showed them fewls”.

“Sheeeeeeeeeeit, Jiggy got lowest DPS score for the round, -50DKP!!”

Mian.1945:

Not to mention Chuckles and his buddies are all sitting there on Teamspeak together all with preassigned roles and assist macros prewired for coordinated stunning and bursting against pugs who don’t know each other from Adam.

“Thief 1 cast Shadow refuge”
“Warrior 1 cast speed”
“Gogogogogogogogo”
“Target 1 – Ele – Thief 1 Basilisk”
“SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE”
“Target 2 – Mesmer – Thief 2 Basilisk”
“SPIKE SPIKE SPIKE”
“MORE DOTS, MORE DOTS, AWAY FROM DA WELPS!!”
“Thief 3 – Shadow Refuge”
“Runrunrunrun”
“Yo dawwwwwwwg, we showed them fewls”.

“Sheeeeeeeeeeit, Jiggy got lowest DPS score for the round, -50DKP!!”

Uhh … that’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to work. Whether you like downed state or not, WvW is a team strategy/tactics game that places a premium on coordination and cooperation. Organized groups and VoIP chat are simply valid mechanisms for accomplishing that. I’m constantly amazed at how many people can’t seem to grasp that concept and instead want to turn WvW into simply a set of mass 1v1 encounters.

Downed state is what’s stoping me from trying to fight vs multiple opponents,really.I mean i still try..as a warr,and im able to go head to head 1 vs 4.But when i down 2 players,and im unable to finish them off due to 2 players still attacking me,my support skills on cd so being knockd backed etc etc not being able to finish off…so your standing there like an idiot trying to finish of 2 people youve just downed and it just wont happen…If this state was removed i would honestly be able to take 3 – 4 people perhaps and would gladly do so.Now im running away from most 3 – 4 encounters i find Due to downed state and Downed state Alone.I think it has absolutely no Place at all in wvwvw.By the way,downed state gets abused like CRAZY,especially by mesmers,thiefs,or someone with that awefull mistform runeset.People just rinse and repeat what theyr doing because they know..they go down,but wont be finished,they just get up,regain hp and do the same.

WvW not about skill, nor shall be. It’s about organization. You got organized team, with roles, tactics, coordination AND big enough numbers? You will and should win. You lack any of it, and rely only on “personal skill”? You will and shall lose. All WvW is about numbers and organization of numbers. Tactic, strategy, logistic, intel – this is small scale war. No one cares about how good you can twitch your fingers at sPvP artificial arenas, if you alone here – you’re nothing, stop complaining then and go back to sPvP. Current downed/rezzing system give favor to more massive and organized force, so leave it as is.

Rednik.3809:

WvW not about skill, nor shall be. It’s about organization. You got organized team, with roles, tactics, coordination AND big enough numbers? You will and should win. You lack any of it, and rely only on “personal skill”? You will and shall lose. All WvW is about numbers and organization of numbers. Tactic, strategy, logistic, intel – this is small scale war. No one cares about how good you can twitch your fingers at sPvP artificial arenas, if you alone here – you’re nothing, stop complaining then and go back to sPvP. Current downed/rezzing system give favor to more massive and organized force, so leave it as is.

So people are not allowed to go alone in wvwvw,if they do they should stop complaining and go back to spvp…Wheres the sense in that ? I dont like spvsvp so i won’t play it,but when i do meet 3 – 4 people in wvwvw when im on my way to a tower or camp ( you do realize people sometimes have to travel distances,sometimes even alone …Right ? ) And you realize that,its not good to go head to head becuase of the downed system,you know you can fight and you would probably be able to kill atleast 3,but finish em off ? No,thank the downed state to that.Only thiefs are able to do this easily,yet another imbalance issue.Youre missing the point where downing can seriously affect pvp in wvwvw in a bad way,especially when One class is able to this,yet the others mostly fail.Stop thinking about every encounter being a Zerg vs Zerg type scenario,your missing Alot of others.

Caedmon.6798:

So people are not allowed to go alone in wvwvw,if they do they should stop complaining and go back to spvp…Wheres the sense in that ? I dont like spvsvp so i won’t play it,but when i do meet 3 – 4 people in wvwvw when im on my way to a tower or camp ( you do realize people sometimes have to travel distances,sometimes even alone …Right ? ) And you realize that,its not good to go head to head becuase of the downed system,you know you can fight and you would probably be able to kill atleast 3,but finish em off ? No,thank the downed state to that.Only thiefs are able to do this easily,yet another imbalance issue.Youre missing the point where downing can seriously affect pvp in wvwvw in a bad way,especially when One class is able to this,yet the others mostly fail.Stop thinking about every encounter being a Zerg vs Zerg type scenario,your missing Alot of others.

Zerg vs. Zerg is main type of WvW encounters, and current system tweaked to favor more organized one. Small scale action much less important. So I do not think that changing the balance in favor of minor skirmishes would be a good idea.

Caedmon.6798:

So people are not allowed to go alone in wvwvw,if they do they should stop complaining and go back to spvp…Wheres the sense in that ?

People can and do win 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 every day. It is doable, but not easy, and requires a large skill/terrain/gear advantage, which is honestly exactly how it should work.

Stop telling yourself that you can’t win 1v3 or 1v4 because of the downed system and start realizing that you can’t win those fights because either you’re not good enough or your opponents are too good. It is like saying “I woulda won but they were using weapons and stuff and attacking me if they were AFK I woulda got ’em”. You don’t get to ignore mechanics you’re bad at and then proclaim victory on the basis of those mechanics being dumb anyways.

The dev’s said they want to take it in the opposite direction. They want the individual players to feel that they can make more of an impact. They don’t like all this zerging rubbish (and neither do I)

Also with good coordination and a fixed downed state a small number of players can take down a much larger force, but the current downed state puts the advantage further towards the team with more players. They have more players… so why do they need another advantage on top of that?

The problem atm is that people can far too easily revive you from before some one can finish half the stomp animation… or have no issues reviving a player while having 3 people attack the person in the downed state.

That doesn’t add depth or tactics, that excessive revive healing just helps the scrubs who would have otherwise just died. I know scrubs don’t like dying more, but there needs to be more of punishment for not playing well than just being in a zerg that continually revive itself with far too much silly downed state healing.

Being downed shouldn’t just be a “meh” for the player. It should be an “aw frak me”

Aberrant.6749:

Also with good coordination and a fixed downed state a small number of players can take down a much larger force, but the current downed state puts the advantage further towards the team with more players. They have more players… so why do they need another advantage on top of that?

Because manipulation of the downed state is one of the major advantages of working together, and one of the only ways that GW2 allows you to directly support a eachother in a large group.

That doesn’t add depth or tactics, that excessive revive healing just helps the scrubs who would have otherwise just died. I know scrubs don’t like dying more, but there needs to be more of punishment for not playing well than just being in a zerg that continually revive itself with far too much silly downed state healing.

The punishment for not playing well is losing in an evenly matched (terrain/gear/numbers wise) or even slightly advantageous position. The force multiplier effect of individual skill absolutely affects battle outcome, it just doesn’t supercede all over factors, nor should it.

Being downed shouldn’t just be a “meh” for the player. It should be an “aw frak me”

The TTK in GW2 doesn’t really allow for downed state to be that significant. Being downed isn’t being defeated, and players are intended to spend some time in the downed state no matter how good they are, it is just a part of combat. You may wish that was how it worked, but it doesn’t, and GW2 would need a lot of rebalancing to make it that way.

Tulisin.6945:

Aberrant.6749:

Also with good coordination and a fixed downed state a small number of players can take down a much larger force, but the current downed state puts the advantage further towards the team with more players. They have more players… so why do they need another advantage on top of that?

Because manipulation of the downed state is one of the major advantages of working together, and one of the only ways that GW2 allows you to directly support a eachother in a large group.

That doesn’t add depth or tactics, that excessive revive healing just helps the scrubs who would have otherwise just died. I know scrubs don’t like dying more, but there needs to be more of punishment for not playing well than just being in a zerg that continually revive itself with far too much silly downed state healing.

The punishment for not playing well is losing in an evenly matched (terrain/gear/numbers wise) or even slightly advantageous position. The force multiplier effect of individual skill absolutely affects battle outcome, it just doesn’t supercede all over factors, nor should it.

Being downed shouldn’t just be a “meh” for the player. It should be an “aw frak me”

The TTK in GW2 doesn’t really allow for downed state to be that significant. Being downed isn’t being defeated, and players are intended to spend some time in the downed state no matter how good they are, it is just a part of combat. You may wish that was how it worked, but it doesn’t, and GW2 would need a lot of rebalancing to make it that way.

You don’t need to remove the downed state, just make it harder for people to get back up/heal the downed person. You could still help your allies, but not to the point where you can just rally them while they are being attacked by multiple foes or before half of the stomp animation is done. That’s just silly.

If you disagree with that then I’m sorry… you just don’t like dying and don’t want to worry about being killed as long as you have enough people around you.

It also encourages the current zerging state of WvW… which the dev’s have said they don’t like. This would help remove some of the incentive for that.

As far is it being too hard… some one suggested how to do it in this thread very easily…

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

I second the idea of keeping the downed state but removing the “Finish him.” move. That would force players to knock down the player’s health, rather than just channel the finisher, and would be more tactical.

Ohoni.6057:

I second the idea of keeping the downed state but removing the “Finish him.” move. That would force players to knock down the player’s health, rather than just channel the finisher, and would be more tactical.

What is “more tactical” is having the choice and option to do either. Channeling a finisher is not always the best choice, in fact it is usually the worse of the two choices in mass PvP, since focus fire will kill someone faster than anything but a quickness stomp. Stomps act as hardcounter to healing and various evasive tactics and is usually faster than attacking someone to death solo and slower than attacking someone to death as a group, it is a good tradeoff.

What is “more tactical” is having the choice and option to do either. Channeling a finisher is not always the best choice, in fact it is usually the worse of the two choices in mass PvP, since focus fire will kill someone faster than anything but a quickness stomp. Stomps act as hardcounter to healing and various evasive tactics and is usually faster than attacking someone to death solo and slower than attacking someone to death as a group, it is a good tradeoff.

Meh, it just seems to “cheap.” Some classes are really good at avoiding a stomp, with a good KB or run move, but other classes really have nothing to do against them, which is a bit unbalanced. Classes tend to be roughly equally as good at dealing with raw attacks though.

Draygo.9473:

Part of the skill in wvw is learning when to fight, when to stomp, when to flee, or when you are forced to fight to the death and how to make the best out of it.

This right here is the most honest thing I’ve read in this thread.

People expecting to win a 1v3 is ludicris. I guarantee you if i’m in that group of 3, you’re not going to win. PERIOD.

On top of that, expecting to ‘down’ a player via Stomp in the middle of a zerg is just insane. DPS them down.

Stomping is only really going to occur in the back lines where your melee have pushed through and broke thier lines, and the range classes are following up and stomping people OR thief’s running w/ the front line melee and stealth stomping.

There’s just too much going on in the front lines… to much focus fire, to much aoe, to much CC.

There is a TON of skill in this game and its’ those who lack the skill that complain about there being no skill.

Ohoni.6057:

Meh, it just seems to “cheap.” Some classes are really good at avoiding a stomp, with a good KB or run move, but other classes really have nothing to do against them, which is a bit unbalanced. Classes tend to be roughly equally as good at dealing with raw attacks though.

I disagree, some professions are definitely easier to finish off via raw damage than others.

Consider that while all professions don’t have equalized downed state skills (not that their skills are equalized in any other situation), not all professions are meant to spend an equal amount of time in the downed state.

Rednik.3809:

WvW not about skill, nor shall be. It’s about organization..

You’re right, however, skill definitely helps, only thing is its not primarily measured in WvW by kill ratios as gets droned about by a few. It takes a different kind of skill & builds to actually best accomplish the objectives in a team fashion, skills that usually don’t mesh with 1v1 builds.

The OP’s plea is a very biased one really. What should be remembered is WvW is a game of holding territory, not kills. And actually sPVP is exactly the same, insofar as we just have conquest, just the terrirtory you hold is way smaller there.

Currently the best survival classes are the best mobility ones. Not because they can win every fight, even 1v1, but because they can restart every fight. When you can choose your fights and escape, its easy not to die. People take these professions and builds and think they are great because they rarely die. Well duh, you have built to be good at losing without dying, or at the least, losing ground.

But that’s the trade-off, they are less good at actually holding a piece of ground. And you need to hold an area of ground in order to successfully get people finished off in downed, this is intended. It’s not intended for a bunch of people to rush in (out of stealth esp), assist train one guy, blow a bunch of cooldowns, get a kill, then run away and rinse repeat.

These battles are supposed to be long drawn out extended fights, and that means sticking in there in the thick of melee and holding that ground in order to get your enemey entirely pushed off. Only when you hold the line or front can you easily get people finished, and not till you actually advance the line can you successfully make sure they don’t yet get rezzed from total death.

30 vs 30 would play out quite ridiculously if it was simply a matter of which side got the mmo equivalent of being head-shotted first. Or worse an endless drawn out snipe and run affair, with a large force not having proper tools to ever catch an attrition force. WvW is about large forces clashing and staying clashed, it is the whole point.

Aberrant.6749:

Tulisin.6945:

Aberrant.6749:

Also with good coordination and a fixed downed state a small number of players can take down a much larger force, but the current downed state puts the advantage further towards the team with more players. They have more players… so why do they need another advantage on top of that?

Because manipulation of the downed state is one of the major advantages of working together, and one of the only ways that GW2 allows you to directly support a eachother in a large group.

That doesn’t add depth or tactics, that excessive revive healing just helps the scrubs who would have otherwise just died. I know scrubs don’t like dying more, but there needs to be more of punishment for not playing well than just being in a zerg that continually revive itself with far too much silly downed state healing.

The punishment for not playing well is losing in an evenly matched (terrain/gear/numbers wise) or even slightly advantageous position. The force multiplier effect of individual skill absolutely affects battle outcome, it just doesn’t supercede all over factors, nor should it.

Being downed shouldn’t just be a “meh” for the player. It should be an “aw frak me”

The TTK in GW2 doesn’t really allow for downed state to be that significant. Being downed isn’t being defeated, and players are intended to spend some time in the downed state no matter how good they are, it is just a part of combat. You may wish that was how it worked, but it doesn’t, and GW2 would need a lot of rebalancing to make it that way.

As far is it being too hard… some one suggested how to do it in this thread very easily…

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

I would be happy with this.

People still spike in this game? I just mark target and my group continues to dps them down with the odd interrupt to stop them using their #2. It’s more fun too, especially when I’m on my ranger and I use hunters call to send the birdies in to devour the poor sod.

Consider that while all professions don’t have equalized downed state skills (not that their skills are equalized in any other situation), not all professions are meant to spend an equal amount of time in the downed state.

I’m not really sure what you mean by that. Aside from Warriors, who can do their “suicide push” move, every class spends about the same amount of time downed as any other, the move timers are all about the same, and the conditions for popping up are about the same.

As far is it being too hard… some one suggested how to do it in this thread very easily…

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

No. If people can manage to rez a dead player during a pitched battle then they deserve to have that person around. If you manage to kill another player, or even mob using only weak-sauce downed state attacks, you deserve that rally. If a bunch of players manage to lock themselves down in a single location and not get annihilated with AoE, then they deserve that rez.

Rednik.3809:

WvW not about skill, nor shall be. It’s about organization. You got organized team, with roles, tactics, coordination AND big enough numbers? You will and should win. You lack any of it, and rely only on “personal skill”? You will and shall lose. All WvW is about numbers and organization of numbers. Tactic, strategy, logistic, intel – this is small scale war. No one cares about how good you can twitch your fingers at sPvP artificial arenas, if you alone here – you’re nothing, stop complaining then and go back to sPvP. Current downed/rezzing system give favor to more massive and organized force, so leave it as is.

Skill encompasses most aspects of a game. People are under this illusion that skill is only about your reflexes. Thats reflexes not skill. Skill is about how you think about what to do in a given situation as well and doing the right thing at the right in the right way. Skill actually does involve tactics, strategy, and knowing what you role is. If you lack most of those attributes you are NOT a skilled player. Small groups can and do play a role in WvW. Due to their mechanics it is a diminished a little bit, but they can play a role.

Smaller groups can mean the difference. Their impact is not always direct or immediately visible, but it’s there and can turn the tide in the large scale fight without even being there. They can also pick off your people running back from rez(your reinforcements) or join in and grind down parts of your zerg. They can cut off your supply lines.

Everyone that is doing anything is helping their server. From attacking, taking a point, killing other players, being a distraction. Small groups have a role in every mmo and always will. Before zergs scream and say they aren’t helping, pay close attention and think about what they might be doing that is indirectly helping you. A skilled smaller group or two communicating with a zerg is a deadly weapon that can be used to cripple your opposition and help to ultimately kill it. Even if they aren’t directly communicating with a zerg.

Here’s a question:

Has anyone noticed a change in downed state health based on vitality? I know that if you constantly go into downed state, the percentage you go down with is less and less.

If it isn’t, then I think downed state health should be based off of vitality. Glass cannon builds would be MUCH easier to defeat/kill when downed, which would balance them out a little more.

kidbs.8920:

sPvP isn’t a skills-based game either. It’s all about bunker builds and who can turtle on a point the longest.

This.

At least in WvW you can prove your skills by winning outnumbered, there is a lot more skill involved in WvW than there is in bunker-the-point s"PvP".

The 1st time game with the downstate for me was Modern Warfare, a game about getting kills. The purpose of the downstate was to get a kill or 2 in before you actually died. It worked pretty well in that game.

GW2 is the 2nd time. My reaction was WTF? It feels rather cumbersome. Finishing an enemy is ok. Reviving others is alright too, though you can rez them too after they bleed out. But in some cases it can be annoying like when I want to die instantly I have to wait. It feels like it just there, I dont use it all the time.

Sometimes its fine, sometimes I hate it. I’m use to it now but I wouldn’t miss the “death bar” …of death… if they took it out. Or reimplement it something more engaging. Action bar 5 = Beg for mercy. I’d love to see that before finishing someone. Having that will make the “death bar” worth it.

Agree, "downed state" - just a crazy and unneeded thing. Just make all characters with double HP and completely remove downed state.

Downed State in general is fine. Its a strategical element both for offense (killing enemies) and defense (rezzing enemies).

The only problem I see is that large zergs can rezz downed and even dead players in like no time.

Solution is simple: Decrease the max number of rezzers to 3 players. That would prevent instant rezzing for large zergs.

Downed state is a penalty for attackers, so rezzing must be a penalty for defenders. Outmanning should not compensate those penalties!

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

An elementalist should only complain about how bad our downed state is not the mechanic itself :-). Maybe you mean the gaurdian downed state has no place in the game?

teg.1340:

Downed State in general is fine. Its a strategical element both for offense (killing enemies) and defense (rezzing enemies).

What is strategic about the downed state? Please tell me why the game is better with it compared to without it. There is a reason, but I haven’t actually seen anyone here make the argument for it, instead insisting that the downed state is some strategic mind game.

It boils down to a utility tax that favors the majority.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

Bunzy.8674:

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7vgD8KFd-o

That about wraps up this thread.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

I’m curious why no one has called out a D/D ele for talking about skills in WvW…

Ironic, ain’t it.

Mif.3471:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

I’m curious why no one has called out a D/D ele for talking about skills in WvW…

Ironic, ain’t it.

I have tried before. Its about as effective as kittening into the wind.

Tulisin.6945:

Caedmon.6798:

So people are not allowed to go alone in wvwvw,if they do they should stop complaining and go back to spvp…Wheres the sense in that ?

People can and do win 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 every day. It is doable, but not easy, and requires a large skill/terrain/gear advantage, which is honestly exactly how it should work.

Stop telling yourself that you can’t win 1v3 or 1v4 because of the downed system and start realizing that you can’t win those fights because either you’re not good enough or your opponents are too good. It is like saying “I woulda won but they were using weapons and stuff and attacking me if they were AFK I woulda got ’em”. You don’t get to ignore mechanics you’re bad at and then proclaim victory on the basis of those mechanics being dumb anyways.

You played with a warrior before ? Its unable to finish of someone,when playing 1 vs 3, 1 vs 4,you will Not finish them all and struggle with most of it.Hell,ive won 2vs6 with a thief buddy,because HE was able to finish them off,Not me,i down them,he finish.Not every class is able to do this,thiefs have a huge advantage over all other classes in downing + finishing off.

Regardless of profession you don’t get finishers off in 1v3 unless the 3 are absolutely terrible or you’re burning quickness/stability. It has nothing to do with being a warrior. Winning against multiple enemies means you’re going to have to actually manage your downed opponents instead of trying to finish them one at a time.

Down state is fine as it is. There is a cap for rezzing. And it can be used as a TRAP.
1 person down, here come ppl to rezz, kite AOEs. I always do that and it’s pretty fun and you down more ppl on one spot.

Downed State is by far the most detrimental feature of this game to any kind of skillful play.

Maybe it’s there on purpose to give bad players safety in numbers.

But only in GW2 can you down someone in 1v2 only to have them rezzed by their team-mate faster than you can finish them (especially considering the interrupts). Depending on your class you may not even be able to interrupt the revival process.

You kill them again…..and the player is just revived again.

Kill them a third time and they rally off some random mob that got caught in the fire.

It’s so incredibly stupid and frustrating it boggles my mind how this was ever considered acceptable by anyone.

The biggest insult of all though is that any group of players can resurrect pretty much anyone in roughly 6 seconds, even defeated players. Good luck killing a Zerg.

@Bunzy

With all due respect killing undergeared, and low level players leveled to 80 does not require skill, just a class that does a lot of burst damage, or a group that can utilize combo fields, and AoE damage. MMOs are not my choice for determining the skill level of a player, but I find these games tediously easy to play. No, if you want to test your skill, in a game that can actually measure a players skill, play something like Starcraft 2.

The only way to measure skill in this game, is to advocate a situation where everyone has the same stats and abilities. Quite frankly, that would be boring. The downed state is fine. I have no issues killing anyone with it, or without it. There is a lot of other things I’d rather the developers spend their time on.