Guild Wars 2

I am sincerely asking if there is any spec in the game that can actually beat them in a 1v1?

Everyone has encountered the roaming D/P Thief that can smoke field -> leap finisher, refuge, etc. They do enough damage over the fight to kill almost anything that isn’t a pure tank, can shadowstep out of stuns and stealth to reset the fight at any point, drop conditions while in stealth and regen health.

So does any good D/P thief think there’s a class/spec that straight up beats them 1v1? The only class I’ve heard say they beat them is certain Mesmer builds (I have heard both the perplexity rune and phantasm mesmers beat them), but I’ve also heard some D/P thieves claim to beat these classes too. Obviously one of them is mistaken.

Obligatory Disclaimer: Please do not post if you have no idea what you’re talking about. Yes, I too have killed hundreds of Thieves, but it’s because they don’t know what they’re doing.

I’ve fought a lot of thieves as well. I’ve fought some pretty decent thieves, and I’ve fought some thieves that were god awful. D/P is the biggest pain in the kitten thief you will ever fight. It’s near impossible to completely lock a good one down for too long. I’d say the only thing that can be a thief is another thief. that or a hammer Warrior if he learns to time his stun right as the theif pops out of stealth and procede to stunlock him to death unless he shadowsteps away. Honestly, Even if every other type of build were to go extinct, D/P will always be alive simply because it’s so defense with all the offense through blinds only. Plus it’s impossible to kite a D/P thief.

But, um…. Average people playing any classes won’t beat D/P. amazing people playing the right build on almost any class can beat a thief.

D/P is all about forcing them to drain their initiative. Really any class can do it if you play it smart. A perfect push/pull out of a smoke field before they heartseeker through it will screw them over hard.

Yeah. Mesmer. Don’t build glassy. Out condi apply/duration their removal. Don’t bring a staff to a thief fight. iWarden to negate ranged attacks, and to cover you in open field from melee. Temporal curtain to counter shadow refuge. Channeled scepter to strike/follow while they’re stealthed (also applies confusion stacks at a constant rate to block condi removals behind them like burns and bleeds). iMage for confusion the moment they come out of stealth plus retal for mesmer. Sword iLeap for CC and burst. Torments always a kitten too. Clone on death to soft cc the hell out of them/punish attacking clones.

Then high mobility and long ranged blinks to give chase.

If all else fails, lead them to a cliff and pull them into the void.

perma stealth is an exploit of the game mechanics. send respectful feedback to anet on this exploit. some of us decent thieves don’t use that scrub spec and rely on lower levels of stealth.

Sanduskel.1850:

perma stealth is an exploit of the game mechanics. send respectful feedback to anet on this exploit. some of us decent thieves don’t use that scrub spec and rely on lower levels of stealth.

The fact you used that term shows a gross misuse of the term.

So much nonsensical replies already, sigh.

Yes, playing well is going to beat a bad thief, I already stated that’s stupid to discuss. We are talking about good players of equal skill. Saying that “any class can beat a good D/P” is just complete nonsense, they can’t. I’m wondering if there is a single spec that can because I assure you most cannot.

“Perma stealth” is not an exploit and they aren’t any lesser of a person than you are for using it. You speak as if leap finisher in a smoke feild is a glitch that ANet didn’t program in intentionally. If anything the D/P theives are just smarter than you because they realise it’s the best roaming spec for Thief. If you want to play D/D or something because you enjoy it, that’s totally fine. But if you refuse to play D/P because you think those players are ‘lesser people’ than you – then you’re just bad (and childish).

Thanks Ross for the Mesmer perspective. I can see how a good condi or hybrid Mesmer would be a pain for them because both classes use very similar mechanics to outmuscle everyone else. I assume neither spec can prevent the other one from fleeing the fight if they want to though?

Rane.4079:

So much nonsensical replies already, sigh.

Yes, playing well is going to beat a bad thief, I already stated that’s stupid to discuss. We are talking about good players of equal skill. Saying that “any class can beat a good D/P” is just complete nonsense, they can’t. I’m wondering if there is a single spec that can because I assure you most cannot.

“Perma stealth” is not an exploit and they aren’t any lesser of a person than you are for using it. You speak as if leap finisher in a smoke feild is a glitch that ANet didn’t program in intentionally. If anything the D/P theives are just smarter than you because they realise it’s the best roaming spec for Thief. If you want to play D/D or something because you enjoy it, that’s totally fine. But if you refuse to play D/P because you think those players are ‘lesser people’ than you – then you’re just bad (and childish).

Thanks Ross for the Mesmer perspective. I can see how a good condi or hybrid Mesmer would be a pain for them because both classes use very similar mechanics to outmuscle everyone else. I assume neither spec can prevent the other one from fleeing the fight if they want to though?

I can probably find a video of almost every class being a D/P thief. It’s not impossible for an Ele, or a Guardian, or a Engineer, or most any class. Don’t say false crap like no class can beat a good D/P that’s pure bull, and shame on you for believing such.

You cannot find a video of every class/spec beating a good D/P thief, if you think you can then that just means you don’t know what a good D/P thief is.

Yes, every class can beat bad/average D/P thieves. This thread is to discuss beating a good D/P thief, a scenario where both players are equally skilled.

Please stop posting nonsense in this thread. By all means please show me these magical videos of Rangers beating good D/P thieves.

Rane.4079:

You cannot find a video of every class/spec beating a good D/P thief, if you think you can then that just means you don’t know what a good D/P thief is.

Yes, every class can beat bad/average D/P thieves. This thread is to discuss beating a good D/P thief, a scenario where both players are equally skilled.

Please stop posting nonsense in this thread. By all means please show me these magical videos of Rangers beating good D/P thieves.

I’m not the one with this stigma against D/P thieves. They are not Gods, not even good ones. I think you just have a big chip on your shoulder. As for Ranger Vs. Thief, Do you want it to be recent? most recent I can find is 4 months ago.

I’m trying to find good information and you’re just posting ignorant drivel. The most you’ll do is post a video of someone beating a bad D/P thief and then be all “see it’s totally doable”. Almost every spec in the game simply cannot kill a good D/P thief in a fair 1v1. I’m trying to find out which ones can.

I don’t think thieves are gods, I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone half decent that D/P thief is one of if not the best roamer/duelist in the game. I want to learn and improve so I’m asking people with far more WvW experience than I what they find difficult to beat as a D/P thief.

Meanwhile you see some bad D/P thief go ham on some guy and die in a 1v1 and think that proves all classes can beat good D/P thieves. Watch any stream with a good D/P thief and the only classes they have ‘trouble’ against are the super tanky ones that can’t kill the thief either, so the thief can ignore them and move on.

Rane.4079:

You cannot find a video of every class/spec beating a good D/P thief, if you think you can then that just means you don’t know what a good D/P thief is.

Yes, every class can beat bad/average D/P thieves. This thread is to discuss beating a good D/P thief, a scenario where both players are equally skilled.

Please stop posting nonsense in this thread. By all means please show me these magical videos of Rangers beating good D/P thieves.

Well I play a Ranger in wvw and I understand what you feel. Not only do I have multiple weapons with me for different encounters. The problem is that the thief can choose the fight, I cannot so I am probably on my anti zerg LB with GS. And against a good thief there is noway in hell I can survive that with just one block.
And yeah I kinda hate thiefs too

As you mentioned previously, any decent hammer warr, maybe with a throw bollas, then some condi maybe sword/shield or sword/warhorn for a more typical build should be able to beat the d/p thief.

I’ve been playing a lot of roaming guardian recently also and never lost a fight against a thief that i didn’t screw up in. I tend to run GS sword/focus, keep some burning up, Judges intervention at the right time and your GS #5 to pull them out of their blackpowder. Popping your F1 at the right time will also make a huge difference as it will take them atleast 3 seconds to remove that (if traited to condi remove in stealth). Focus allows you to block that dmg when you might lose track of the thief. Sword #3 when cast just before stealth will follow him (similar to the rangers arrows do) even when he goes into stealth.

In your comment about the tankyness aspect, i run pretty average on that. I’ll get hit for a 6k backstab but i make sure my damage output is higher due to my roaming. When he runs off you’ve got that Judges Intervention and sword #2 to make sure you can catch up.

I’ll discuss necro/ranger in another post, imma go play some wvw first :P

i find rangers using Dire/apoth tanking spec to hold up good against em. But it takes a lot of concentration on the rangers side as to not screw up

Have you ever actually tried this? Between server desynch/lag/dodges/blinding powder/stealth it’s absurd. It’s not so much thieves as it is anyone trying to melee you from the sides/back in WvW, good luck landing bolas on anything but a ranged class. Without a doubt I think the only warrior that might beat a good D/P is Hammer+Longbow or Hammer+Something/Shield and from what I’ve seen they really don’t. Hammer is pretty overpowered for group play at the moment, but for 1v1 is extremely telegraphed and can easily be avoided by dodge/blind/shadowstep/steal. I’m just going off the streams I watch but the thieves I’m talking about laugh at warriors 1v1.

My experience is more sPvP but I don’t see how any good D/P thief loses to a guardian. First and foremost, there’s no way you can catch them. Even if you’re running GS and 1hSword and judges intervention, there’s no way you are catching a good thief. Again I’m positive you have caught thieves as I have also, but those players are idiots. If they’re hitting you while not in blackpowder or backstabbing you out of stealth then yeah you can actually trade in your advantage, but again they were probably dumb to do that or at the very least can reset the fight and reengage on their terms.

In sPvP I really don’t have a problem with them because it’s an entirely different game mode. The fact that the thief has to somehow get you off your node to decap it changes the way people build/fight and even if the thief would kill you 1v1 you can often easily stall long enough until your roamer arrives to help you out. If you’re roaming by yourself in WvW however and a good D/P jumps you, you better hope you aren’t playing guardian.

No ranger in Dire/Apoth is every killing a good D/P thief. As I said in the opening post, the only thing they can’t kill is really tanky stuff that can’t kill them – which means they can just ignore you entirely. As you said yourself in reality you aren’t even that tanky and if you mess up they can kill you, meanwhile if you ever somehow get them low they can run and you can’t do anything about it.

No………….

Playing as p/p perplexity thief I’m destroying d/p thieves non stop, interrupting their heartseeker multiple times when they try to go through a smoke field is one of the funniest things I’ve done in this game. It is also one of THE MOST predictable things to counter.

The nooby d/p thieves won’t know when utility goggles or berserker stance is on, and assume that their target is being perma blinded, and instead get their face melted.

Rane.4079:

Have you ever actually tried this? Between server desynch/lag/dodges/blinding powder/stealth it’s absurd. It’s not so much thieves as it is anyone trying to melee you from the sides/back in WvW, good luck landing bolas on anything but a ranged class. Without a doubt I think the only warrior that might beat a good D/P is Hammer+Longbow or Hammer+Something/Shield and from what I’ve seen they really don’t. Hammer is pretty overpowered for group play at the moment, but for 1v1 is extremely telegraphed and can easily be avoided by dodge/blind/shadowstep/steal. I’m just going off the streams I watch but the thieves I’m talking about laugh at warriors 1v1.

My experience is more sPvP but I don’t see how any good D/P thief loses to a guardian. First and foremost, there’s no way you can catch them. Even if you’re running GS and 1hSword and judges intervention, there’s no way you are catching a good thief. Again I’m positive you have caught thieves as I have also, but those players are idiots. If they’re hitting you while not in blackpowder or backstabbing you out of stealth then yeah you can actually trade in your advantage, but again they were probably dumb to do that or at the very least can reset the fight and reengage on their terms.

In sPvP I really don’t have a problem with them because it’s an entirely different game mode. The fact that the thief has to somehow get you off your node to decap it changes the way people build/fight and even if the thief would kill you 1v1 you can often easily stall long enough until your roamer arrives to help you out. If you’re roaming by yourself in WvW however and a good D/P jumps you, you better hope you aren’t playing guardian.

No ranger in Dire/Apoth is every killing a good D/P thief. As I said in the opening post, the only thing they can’t kill is really tanky stuff that can’t kill them – which means they can just ignore you entirely. As you said yourself in reality you aren’t even that tanky and if you mess up they can kill you, meanwhile if you ever somehow get them low they can run and you can’t do anything about it.

i only ever play in WvW, so yes i have tried this. i also play on a server thats within the top 3 tiers. So i meet a lot of thieves. However my hardest opponents, i found down in T5. Sure a good D/P thief is a hassle. Takes ages to kill.
But the fact that you think a ranger cannot do it, says more about your inexperience with good ranger play, then it says about the thief.

You are tanky in Dire/Apoth mix. The damage is what makes it hard. Even the condition damage isn’t high enough to completely overwhelm a good D/P thief. So while you would steamroll most other professions the D/P will have enough cleanses and strong enough healing to lessen the effect of your conditions. This means that while you can out tank them, you are basically as effective as a warrior with a hard rubber sword. HOWEVER, the ranger has excellent access to poison, which again reduces the pure healing power. Making the thieves insane condition cleansing and damage it’s only good points.
In the end, if the ranger and thief is equally skilled, in PLAYER skill, it will be 50/50. If the ranger cannot match the thief in skill the thief will win, but it won’t be a complete steamroll.

For your info, i mostly play ranger, my other char is a thief. So yeah, while i wouldn’t claim to be a super pro at either, i can with certainty say that i know my ranger, and my thief well enough to tell you that these professions are equally powerful, IF player skill is equal. HOWEVER the ranger has less builds to counter the thief, then the thief has to counter the ranger. Thus, from a profession design aspect, the thief is better equipped, but not victorious.

EDIT: also, did you know that rangers has excellent access to immobilize, which thieves only have 2 cleanses for.

Guardian does fairly well against them in my experience, and I do know the difference between a good and a bad one. I wouldn’t like my chances at all on other professions. I have two Guardians, one is healway one is more solo/roamer.

In general:
- Keep moving after stealth/save dodges for when you expect them to use Backstab
- Don’t spend a second in their smoke circles etc.
- I honestly find judge’s intervention a complete waste considering it has a long CD and any decent thief will just be out of your range again in a second.
- I ALWAYS save my heal for the last second if the thief is relatively low too. Yeah, this is risky, but if they see you low they will come in melee range for the kill. I have won many of my thief fights (on my roamer not my healway) by taking the risk of healing late, bringing the thief back into melee range when we’re both low, hitting heal and GS 4/2 to death. I have also lost a few by taking the risk, too though (oh noes 9k+ burst).

On the healway, go defensive. Main stats are Pow, Tough, Heal Power, and straight off the bat I will say the only way you will actually have a chance to “win” this fight is if you’re fighting one of those rare thieves that won’t run halfway across the map when they are in trouble, i.e they will fight to the death. Use GS/Staff. With GS and this set-up you will pretty much have permanent retaliation up (Save yourselves, stand your ground, stunbreakers too), GS 4/2/5/5 or GS 4/5/2/5 when they come in melee range (they will skip out during GS2 usually). Staff 3 on ground, Staff 2 detonate/Staff 4 heal up after burst.

On the roamer, my tactics are offensive rather than defensive. Main stats are power, prec, toughness. GS & Scept/shield. GS – self explanatory. Scepter – need a decent range weapon for when they move out of melee range if you’re going offensive. Skill 3 immobs, skill 2 is decent if they are immob’d, usually forces them to stealth or come back into melee range. GS skill 4, 2, 5 etc. Shield – Okay, shield is pretty lame in most situations I’ve found. However, if the thief has shadow refuge (most seem to) slotted, shield 5 will almost always knock them out, waste the CD and reveal them. I have the shield trait on too, so skill 4 can give 5s protection every 24s + hold the line (shouts cd trait).

I get where you’re coming from one, good ones are complete pains, but it gets a bit silly/subjective trying to place a particular thief into the “good” bracket that you’re talking about, are they “not good” by default if they lose?

You haven’t tried the warrior ‘solution’ you suggested because it doesn’t work. As for your suppossed ranger build you still don’t seem to understand that you cannot kill a good thief because a good one will just disengage any time you might be able to kill him. Your tanky ranger build can’t do anything to stop that (as oppossed to say a Mesmer with focus pull, which is why it is some people say Mesmers can beat them).

If you are killing D/P thieves with your tanky ranger build then that’s all well and good, I’m happy for you – but they aren’t good. Saying it’s a 50/50 matchup if both players are good is just nonsense, the thief will never die, you sometimes will. That’s a 0-100 matchup.

@ Amurond
I totally believe that you can kill a good D/P thief is he doesn’t run from you, but really how can you stop him running as a guardian? As a guardian sure you might be able to make him flee, but you can’t kill him. Then if you try to take a camp or something he can ambush you in the middle of it (or you can both /dance, neither of these are really ‘beating’ the thief imo)

As for the ‘good’ connotation I only bother typing it to stop the 100 morons saying ‘THIS BEATS THIEF’ when it doesn’t against any thief with half a brain. Sadly as you can see there are still many people who think ‘THIS BEATS THIEF I KIL THEM ALLL THE TIME’.

Rane.4079:

So much nonsensical replies already, sigh.

Yes, playing well is going to beat a bad thief, I already stated that’s stupid to discuss. We are talking about good players of equal skill. Saying that “any class can beat a good D/P” is just complete nonsense, they can’t. I’m wondering if there is a single spec that can because I assure you most cannot.

“Perma stealth” is not an exploit and they aren’t any lesser of a person than you are for using it. You speak as if leap finisher in a smoke feild is a glitch that ANet didn’t program in intentionally. If anything the D/P theives are just smarter than you because they realise it’s the best roaming spec for Thief. If you want to play D/D or something because you enjoy it, that’s totally fine. But if you refuse to play D/P because you think those players are ‘lesser people’ than you – then you’re just bad (and childish).

Thanks Ross for the Mesmer perspective. I can see how a good condi or hybrid Mesmer would be a pain for them because both classes use very similar mechanics to outmuscle everyone else. I assume neither spec can prevent the other one from fleeing the fight if they want to though?

I refuse to play D/P because heartseeking 4x times through smoke field with your camera down and your field of view totally screwed up is too awkward and doesnt seem fun a all. Why anet dont give as normal stealth that wouldnt require such awkward mechanics to keep it up. 10s stealth with 10s cooldown that drains all your initiative on use as for example. I would seriously prefer that over seeing thieves hoping through smoke fields like rabbits.

@OP: What do you mean by “beating”? I’ll bring a boxing analogy here: If you are talking about scorecard – sure can do. If you are talking about victory via knockout – probably not.

Karolis.4261:

I refuse to play D/P because heartseeking 4x times through smoke field with your camera down and your field of view totally screwed up

That’s 6x and there’s no need to “camera down”. Or even 7x depending how quick you are. When I’m finishing this combo I have full initiative and 7-8-9 sec left of invis.

Hint: Them running away to heal to full to come back and try to kill you again over and over until they finally get it right isn’t winning.

ANET Dev: “Risk vs. reward? What’s that? I’ve never heard of it.”

If a d/p thief runs, you win, it’s as simple as that

Rane.4079:

@ Amurond
I totally believe that you can kill a good D/P thief is he doesn’t run from you, but really how can you stop him running as a guardian? As a guardian sure you might be able to make him flee, but you can’t kill him. Then if you try to take a camp or something he can ambush you in the middle of it (or you can both /dance, neither of these are really ‘beating’ the thief imo)

I hear you. It might be making it’s way into “not good” territory but it really depends when they run, i.e how low their health is. If they use shadow refuge to get out of there when they’re low, I have killed a small % trying to run away by Shield 5 -> Scepter 3 (they will usually shadowstep after being knocked out) -> Scepter 2 -> GS 3 -> GS 5 (pull if moved again) -> GS 2. But like I said, maybe they kitten ed and aren’t “good”. You’re right for the most part – if they want to get away they will. It’s rare, but some thieves will fight to the death. I don’t think that necessarily makes them bad, either, at least not in the skillful sense. I always fight to the death on my guardian even if I’m getting my kitten kicked, but I barely have a choice Repair bills are nothing.

Lahel.6381:

If a d/p thief runs, you win, it’s as simple as that

That isn’t winning. No PvPer worth his weight would ever consider that actually winning a fight. That is called “not losing.”

Karolis.4261:

I refuse to play D/P because heartseeking 4x times through smoke field with your camera down and your field of view totally screwed up is too awkward and doesnt seem fun a all. Why anet dont give as normal stealth that wouldnt require such awkward mechanics to keep it up. 10s stealth with 10s cooldown that drains all your initiative on use as for example. I would seriously prefer that over seeing thieves hoping through smoke fields like rabbits.

Totally valid reason, if the playstyle doesn’t appeal to you then that’s perfectly fine. There are many reasons not to play this build such as it not being the greatest teamfight build if you’re roaming with friends and fairly horrible as far as zerg fighting goes. I just thought it was childish for some people (like that guy up there) to act like they’re better thieves because they don’t play the spec.

Yaro.3251:

@OP: What do you mean by “beating”? I’ll bring a boxing analogy here: If you are talking about scorecard – sure can do. If you are talking about victory via knockout – probably not.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean beating as in: “a typical WvW scenario where you are roaming solo, you encounter a solo D/P thief, neither of you are near any camps/npcs/teammates, and they try to fight you (meaning you both probably have food/bloodlust stacks if your build runs it)”. Is there any class that can actually kill them? There are several specs that are too tanky for them to kill, but those specs ‘lose’ in my opinion because the best they can do is walk away and try to capture a camp and risk dying to a thief gank, while the thief is still playing a build that can roam around effectively and kill people/take stuff.

The main reason for this thread is that I have a bunch of friends getting into WvW for the new season/league/stuff and they want advice on what classes are best at what. One of the frequently asked questions is what can they play that is still fun but doesn’t die to good D/P thieves solo. (And my thief play is fairly mediocre and sPvP only, so I’m not good enough to understand what classes actually can kill them 1v1 in WvW)

Oozo.7856:

Lahel.6381:

If a d/p thief runs, you win, it’s as simple as that

That isn’t winning. No PvPer worth his weight would ever consider that actually winning a fight. That is called “not losing.”

I play a Mesmer, and I can beat a good d/p thief 50-60% of the time, IF he stays to fight. Now if he runs away, I will take that as a win because I will interpret that as the thief thinking to himself he can’t win the fight if he stays.

Also no PvPer worth his weight wouldn’t know his own weaknesses, and for the spec and playstyle I run, rule number one is to not chase, cause everyone and their mother has higher movespeed than me (I don’t play with traveler runes).

Engineers with condi pressure destroy them with ease. King thief himself Yishis said on his youtube that engineers just bring too much conditions for a thief to cope with. Not only that but Engis can build extremely durable and still have enough damage through conditions to swiftly take down a thief. Really, anything with condi pressure and survivability is favourable. Necro, Ranger, some Mes builds, Engi, maybe even Warrior.

I haven’t died to a D/P or D/D thief yet on my burst ele but I’ve only been roaming with him for a week so I don’t know if that’s just because I haven’t met any good ones yet. It’s hard to tell when they die instantly.

I won’t tell you the “any class has a chance if you play well!!” bullkitten because they do have an awful lot of favourable matchups if skill is even.

Lahel.6381:

I play a Mesmer, and I can beat a good d/p thief 50-60% of the time, IF he stays to fight. Now if he runs away, I will take that as a win because I will interpret that as the thief thinking to himself he can’t win the fight if he stays.

Generally I don’t consider making the thief run away a win because he can come back and gank you while you try and take an objective. However I would classify this as a win assuming you are running a ‘good build’ meaning one that can generally roam fine and you haven’t completely kitten it just to beat a D/P thief. Making a thief run away so that you can capture a camp or something is a win in my opinion (which is why I don’t consider just running something tanky a win, the thief is going to just gank you again while you’re capping and you’ll die.)

Mind elaborating on what you run? If you aren’t running traveler runes then I assume it’s some version of the triple stealth perplexity mesmer?

Writetyper.1985:

Engineers with condi pressure destroy them with ease. King thief himself Yishis said on his youtube that engineers just bring too much conditions for a thief to cope with.

This sounds believable but I am suspect because then you say that other condi classes can do it to (which is so wrong, ranger warriors necros etc don’t have anywhere near enough condis to kill the standard D/P thief build because it has really good condi removal. However I know the least about Engis (by far) so I could totally believe that they might beat them. Could you link a build?

Oozo.7856:

Lahel.6381:

If a d/p thief runs, you win, it’s as simple as that

That isn’t winning. No PvPer worth his weight would ever consider that actually winning a fight. That is called “not losing.”

Well yeah, but if opponent is throwing a towel that’s a win. Not as satisfying as sticking a pole into their chest but meh. It’s like a molestful fly you can’t catch. Fly wins all the time if they don’t get careless. Yeah, whatever, moving on…

Rane.4079:

One of the frequently asked questions is what can they play that is still fun but doesn’t die to good D/P thieves solo.

Now that’s a bit different question than “who can beat them”, is it?

I win if i manage get inside tower alive. Then i use laugh emote because failure thief couldn’t kill me.

I really think it’s the same question, as in the grand scheme of things WvW isn’t about ‘dueling in a box pride’. It’s a game mode where you try and roam the land and capture objectives, while your enemies try to stop you. Hence if a Thief can stop you capturing something, but you can’t stop him capturing something, then the thief is winning.

Again though I apoligise and should have clarified that I’m not talking about dueling in a box with made up rules, as I understand some people really do like that.

Lahel.6381 got it right. Every class can win a good d/p thief if he/she stays for the fight. Most thieves will just retreat and come back another day in wvw when they get too low/run out of cds. I’d consider this a win, since it’s the only class that can reset the fight at any point (if specced for it). That’s like moving away from a point in current spvp, mission failed.

Empyre.2531:

Lahel.6381 got it right. Every class can win a good d/p thief if he/she stays for the fight. Most thieves will just retreat and come back another day in wvw when they get too low/run out of cds. I’d consider this a win, since it’s the only class that can reset the fight at any point (if specced for it). That’s like moving away from a point in current spvp, mission failed.

Did you actually read any of the thread, because he didn’t say anything like that, and we just discussed how this is totally not beating a Thief because they’re stopping you capturing camps, but you aren’t stopping them from doing it. This is WvW, not DuelWars.

Rane.4079:

I really think it’s the same question, as in the grand scheme of things WvW isn’t about ‘dueling in a box pride’. It’s a game mode where you try and roam the land and capture objectives, while your enemies try to stop you. Hence if a Thief can stop you capturing something, but you can’t stop him capturing something, then the thief is winning.

Again though I apoligise and should have clarified that I’m not talking about dueling in a box with made up rules, as I understand some people really do like that.

I’m not sure what’s your point. You assuming that good thief has 100% escape plan but other classes can make a mistake and die from a thief. So good thieves don’t make any mistakes but good other classes do?

Again, talking in terms of “good thief vs good me” makes sense only in “dueling in a box” situation, as you’ve put it. As “in the grand sceme of things” on WvW most of thieves are not that good. So the net result is “you vs all of them over long period of time”. Most of them are minor annoyance and do not stop me capturing anything.

Rane.4079:

Empyre.2531:

Lahel.6381 got it right. Every class can win a good d/p thief if he/she stays for the fight. Most thieves will just retreat and come back another day in wvw when they get too low/run out of cds. I’d consider this a win, since it’s the only class that can reset the fight at any point (if specced for it). That’s like moving away from a point in current spvp, mission failed.

Did you actually read any of the thread, because he didn’t say anything like that, and we just discussed how this is totally not beating a Thief because they’re stopping you capturing camps, but you aren’t stopping them from doing it. This is WvW, not DuelWars.

When they run I capture the sentry/camp and that’s a win, even by your definition. IF they happen to come back, then we just rinse and repeat until the point is flipped.

… and no I didn’t read the thread after I found his first statement, which is spot on.

It’s not about mistakes, it’s about options. The D/P thief played well can get out of almost any fight (perhaps any fight, not sure on mesmers) and to actually force them to run other classes have to run some sort of kittenised tank spec that can’t possibly solo a camp because the thief will gank them. The key distinction being that the thief is running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your tanky character because you can’t stop them.

Which is why I was interested by both Ross and Lahel’s builds because they’re both Mesmers who claim to be able to force thieves to run at least 51% of the time and (I assume) are still perfectly good builds for killing other players/taking objectives etc.

Empyre.2531:

… and no I didn’t read the thread after I found his first statement, which is spot on.

It’s clear you didn’t read because he didn’t even say that. Unless you’re a mesmer (or maybe an engi) you cannot force a Thief to run and then cap a camp. If you have a build that suppossedly forces good D/P Thieves to run and then you can cap the camp even if they reengage on you then please enlighten me as that is what this thread is about. Saying all classes can do that against good D/P’s is completely false.

To the Op classes/spec that can beat dp thiefs are lb/h wars, ms/gs war, phant mes, conditions mes(esp with perplex runes, condition egi( preferably with shield off hand), condition necros, sd elementalist, others thiefs basically any class that is built to duel can take on a dp perma stealth. All a class needs to defeat them is decent dps and a way to interrupt them from stealthing.

In a 1v1 I ALWAYS fight to the death. Yesterday I met a decent D/P thief and we dueled for bit even though his build was more suited for dueling while mine was more for surviving in a 1vX scenario. I kept fighting knowing that I would have died eventually but it didn’t matter as I learned quite a few things from that fight

OP, I agree with you. There is ABSOLUTELY no class which can RELIABLY kill a DECENT D/P Thief. If I want to disengage, I can do that at ANY TIME. Our shadowstep provides us with 2 teleports, a condi cleanse and 2 stun breakers: when I have to use that I usually think about if it is safe to continue the fight or if it is better to leave (since most of my encounters are 1vX).

There ARE, though, some good counters to D/P thieves. Any class with a quick pull/push would put the thief in a bad situation if you can move them from their smoke field. But it is not enough: they will usually have either a Shadowstep (un-interruptable), a Shadow Refuge (almost un-interruptable), a Heal and maybe a Blinding Powder (un interruptable) which will make them regain control of the fight. So you must QUICKLY burst the thief down in that limited time frame, else your interrupt will be worth nothing.
A Hammer/Longbow Warrior is really good against pure zerker/valkyrie D/P Thieves because their stuns and AoE are enough to kill him fast unless they Shadowstep away.
Not only this, but a full PVT Hammer/Longbow Warrior with Healing Signet and Dolyak Signet will be impossible to kill for any non-zerker thief because of their insane regen. So, at the moment, a good Hammer/LB Warrior is the BEST counter to D/P.

Shatter Mesmers ARE a good counter to thieves because it will take them a lot of time to understand which clone to attack while in Stealth: use that time to your advantage.
Engineers ARE a good

I’d say that even Engineers are good against this class, because their costant AoEs are really painful for us.

Also, there is ABSOLUTELY no way that a regen ranger or any type of guardian could kill a good D/P thief. NO WAY, unless the skill gap is incredibly high.

Also I have stolen so many camps and sentry points from dp thiefs.

Rane.4079:

The key distinction being that the thief is running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your tanky character because you can’t stop them.

The key distinction is that I’m running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your evasive thief character because you can’t stop me.

Still don’t see a point.

Yaro.3251:

I’m running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your evasive thief character because you can’t stop me.

Still don’t see a point.

That’s exactly what I’m asking for in this thread, so would you care to elaborate?

Rane.4079:

So much nonsensical replies already, sigh.

Yes, playing well is going to beat a bad thief, I already stated that’s stupid to discuss. We are talking about good players of equal skill. Saying that “any class can beat a good D/P” is just complete nonsense, they can’t. I’m wondering if there is a single spec that can because I assure you most cannot.

“Perma stealth” is not an exploit and they aren’t any lesser of a person than you are for using it. You speak as if leap finisher in a smoke feild is a glitch that ANet didn’t program in intentionally. If anything the D/P theives are just smarter than you because they realise it’s the best roaming spec for Thief. If you want to play D/D or something because you enjoy it, that’s totally fine. But if you refuse to play D/P because you think those players are ‘lesser people’ than you – then you’re just bad (and childish).

Thanks Ross for the Mesmer perspective. I can see how a good condi or hybrid Mesmer would be a pain for them because both classes use very similar mechanics to outmuscle everyone else. I assume neither spec can prevent the other one from fleeing the fight if they want to though?

A good player wouldn’t allow it to come to that. What I mean is, for example if you ever want an enemy to hang around and not flee on you, you need to appear weak when you’re not. If they think they have you they’ll risk low health etc to get you down. That’s your chance to finish them off.

True high levels of play transcends mere mechanics, class knowledge, and basic forms of player skill and goes into areas that exist across all games. You got to get your Art of War on. So yes, either class can prevent the other from fleeing, but maybe not the way in which you’re thinking.

The problem with that level of play is that we’re talking about equal players, so if you’re good enough to be baiting someone, they’re good enough to know they’re being baited and should flee. In reality you never get people this equally skilled which is why it works, you’re most often either the baiter or the baitee. But that doesn’t mean that the class mechanics aren’t giving someone the edge in the fight though. Ultimately though I think you have answered my question, it’s possible for either the D/P or the Mesmer to get baited, but ultimately you cannot stop the other player fleeing if they understand what going on.

Could you elaborate on your build? I find it interesting that you don’t use GS to knock them out of refuge relying solely on focus pull, and you say to build tanky but if you wear Knights or Rabid or PTV then how on earth do you do enough damage to even scratch anything? Or do you just mean you wear full serker with the ‘tanky’ prismatic spec?

Rane.4079:

Yaro.3251:

I’m running a build that can often kill other players/take objectives and not care about your evasive thief character because you can’t stop me.

Still don’t see a point.

That’s exactly what I’m asking for in this thread, so would you care to elaborate?

Oh I see what you did there

I’m running guardian with several builds, one of them is staple x/x/30/30/x build with power stat-build, boon duration or condi resuction. Weapon set is a combination of GS/Hammer/Staff/Mace/Focus. Guard leech, applied fortitude and sigil stacks are a must since they are game changers.

Yaro.3251:

I’m running guardian with several builds, one of them is staple x/x/30/30/x build with power stat-build, boon duration or condi resuction. Weapon set is a combination of GS/Hammer/Staff/Mace/Focus. Guard leech, applied fortitude and sigil stacks are a must since they are game changers.

This is a pretty good example of what I don’t consider beating a thief. Firstly if they catch you with the wrong weapon equipped you’re the creek. More importantly is that even if you make them flee, I highly doubt you can capture a camp and not die when they gank you. If I’m incorrect on this point then by all means correct me as I honestly don’t have a lot of experience solo capping with either the AH or the Triple Med Guardian builds, but I really don’t see you taking an objective if the thief decides he doesn’t want to let you.

Rane.4079:

The problem with that level of play is that we’re talking about equal players, so if you’re good enough to be baiting someone, they’re good enough to know they’re being baited and should flee. In reality you never get people this equally skilled which is why it works, you’re most often either the baiter or the baitee. But that doesn’t mean that the class mechanics aren’t giving someone the edge in the fight though. Ultimately though I think you have answered my question, it’s possible for either the D/P or the Mesmer to get baited, but ultimately you cannot stop the other player fleeing if they understand what going on.

Could you elaborate on your build? I find it interesting that you don’t use GS to knock them out of refuge relying solely on focus pull, and you say to build tanky but if you wear Knights or Rabid or PTV then how on earth do you do enough damage to even scratch anything? Or do you just mean you wear full serker with the ‘tanky’ prismatic spec?

The only thing I’d add is, if the other player is aware of what’s going on then why would they flee? They’re suddenly in the upper hand.

I don’t share the exact details of my build. But I do post vids of it in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8td7XyA1JU

Rane.4079:

This is a pretty good example of what I don’t consider beating a thief. Firstly if they catch you with the wrong weapon equipped you’re the creek.

Yeah there was one case when I’ve botched it with misclick and somehow was wearing GS/GS when two thieves decided to have a third go at me after both being downed at previous rounds. Other than that, all my weapon combos are viable.

More importantly is that even if you make them flee, I highly doubt you can capture a camp and not die when they gank you

If I’m aware of their presence, they cannot technically “gank” me. And of course I will not put myself into position where I’m fighting all camp NPC defenders and a good roaming thief at the same time.

If I’m incorrect on this point then by all means correct me as I honestly don’t have a lot of experience solo capping with either the AH or the Triple Med Guardian builds, but I really don’t see you taking an objective if the thief decides he doesn’t want to let you.

Is this any different if we swap places and it is thief who is trying to cap camp and I’m coming to deny that?