Guild Wars 2

Lahel.6381:

Don’t know how I missed that, cheers. Very interesting to see that you run Chaotic Interruption over PU. Again I’m not a mesmer main so maybe this isn’t that odd, but I’ve only seen people playing PU condi or hybrid, or shatter in WvW. Gonna check out your youtube vids also to see this in action.

Unfortunatly I haven’t been recording much lately, so none of the videos on youtube have this spec in them, except for the one where I pull people to their deaths in stonemist, but that is hardly very relative to this threads discussion :p

Actually it is as it’s my stated “final solution” to a thief who refuses to die :p

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Niim.9260:

D/P thief is a crutch build, it is what you play when you like to PvP with training wheels. I typically just laugh at them and move on.

Yep, scrub build for scrubs relying on an exploit of stealth mechanics to perma stealth.

A player “exploiting” mechanics to gain advantage and achieve victory is the very opposite definition of the term scrub. A scrub is someone who makes up their own rules of game play and victory contrary to the actual in game rules/mechanics.

incorrect. a scrub is someone who plays cheesy builds that are easy mode training wheels. anet even admitted that they never intended perma stealth. they just don’t know how to fix it.

That’s not a scrub. What you’re refering to is a “foo strategy”, and they’re good, albiet important for games.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/GS-iBezerker-a-foo-strategy/first#post959455

The Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

you are welcome to your opinion. most of us disagree.

Rane.4079:

Contiguous.1345:

Why does it take 70+ posts to say ‘no’?

Because as this thread demonstrates 95% of people have no idea what a good D/P thief is, let alone what beats it. They have magical beliefs that all classes can do everything and don’t understand the limitations of their own classes.

No, it’s just that everyone has their own idea of good thief which is a product of their own skill level.

We are talking about good players of equal skill

You see, nobody would consider themselves bad player. And if a fight lasts considerable amount of time, they would probably consider opponent a good player too. Note that you may consider both of them mediocre. “Good” is just meaningless qualification since it is not objective.

Creating this kind of thread in general not class-related forum is asking for 95% of answers you are getting. If I was after same answers last thing I’d do is asking here.

And I’m assuming since you’ve dropped our little conversation, you count me in these 95%.

Sanduskel.1850:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Niim.9260:

D/P thief is a crutch build, it is what you play when you like to PvP with training wheels. I typically just laugh at them and move on.

Yep, scrub build for scrubs relying on an exploit of stealth mechanics to perma stealth.

A player “exploiting” mechanics to gain advantage and achieve victory is the very opposite definition of the term scrub. A scrub is someone who makes up their own rules of game play and victory contrary to the actual in game rules/mechanics.

incorrect. a scrub is someone who plays cheesy builds that are easy mode training wheels. anet even admitted that they never intended perma stealth. they just don’t know how to fix it.

That’s not a scrub. What you’re refering to is a “foo strategy”, and they’re good, albiet important for games.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/GS-iBezerker-a-foo-strategy/first#post959455

The Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

you are welcome to your opinion. most of us disagree.

I suppose if you want to create your own definition of the term you’re welcome to it. But seeing as Sirlin coined the term, and introduced it to the gaming world, I think I’ll just stick with his definition within the larger discussion/thesis which is “Playing to win”.

“In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub.” ~Sirlin

“Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub.” ~Sirlin

“And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move?” ~Sirlin

“A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win.” ~Sirlin

Go back through this thread and you’ll see countless examples of these.

FirstBlood hit the nail on the head: the main advantage of the thief is the ability to disengage. So no, you can’t “beat” a competent thief of any build, because you can’t force a thief to fight you. The thief will always be able to run away.

So what? This doesn’t prove anything. As has been mentioned, sword/warhorn warriors also have a ton of disengage. Mesmers can use a little deception to get out of any fight. Guardians also have abilities that can keep them alive until they’re able to reach safer ground. Any class is able to spec for disengagement, meaning that any competent player will be unbeatable for the simple reason that you can’t force them to fight you. It just so happens that thieves are able to achieve this with a wide variety of builds, whereas other professions only have unbeatable disengagement available within a narrow set of specializations.

The answer is not that thieves are broken, or dominant, or any of that nonsense. The answer is that you’re looking too narrowly at 1v1 fights. As a rule, 1v1 builds tend to be selfish and don’t work well in groups (unless that group is a mindless zergball, in which case you’re not truly a group, you’re just a bunch of 1v1 fights that happen to be very close to each other). If you focus on 1v1 fights, then you’re missing the point of WvW entirely, which is not to fight other players but to capture and hold territory. Objectives can be soloed, but that requires an incompetent enemy (except for camps and flags). Group composition, strategically choosing one’s battles, and seeing the big picture are how you win WvW, not 1v1. If you’re going to focus on 1v1 balance, you may as well say thieves are “cheap” or have no “honor” – it’s scrub thinking. The game is bigger than you, and you are refusing to expand your mind to accommodate it.

So if that thief is stalking you and preventing you from taking any objective, harrassing you and just generally being a pain – don’t complain. Realize what the thief is doing – and that your best move is to go do something else productive instead of continuing to put yourself in a bad situation. Don’t be a Sphex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digger_wasp#Uses_in_philosophy

I got a lvl 80 thief few days ago and its amazing how OP D/P is,perma stealth is no problem just press 5 then 3 3 3 and you can repeat this forever do the fact you gain initiative by going in stealth ;Ð

Easy fix really to remove perma stealth just let Infusion of Shadow have 5sec cooldown like on most OP skills ;P

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

A thief can’t perma stealth unless you let them. Its pretty easy to counter the perma stealth everyone cries about, stand in the blinding powder and the thief heart seekering back and forth through it will hit you and break stealth… don’t do this if you aren’t near full health though.

Even easier every class has some sort of ranged stun/daze/knock back/pull, save it for when they use blinding powder and prevent them stealthing. If you don’t bring the proper utilities or weapons to counter a d/p thief you can’t complain about them.

Killface.1896:

I got a lvl 80 thief few days ago and its amazing how OP D/P is,perma stealth is no problem just press 5 then 3 3 3 and you can repeat this forever do the fact you gain initiative by going in stealth ;Ð

Easy fix really to remove perma stealth just let Infusion of Shadow have 5sec cooldown like on most OP skills ;P

well I play thieves and I am embarassed at how easy perma stealth is. a disgrace to our profession.

DoctorFaust.7103:

If you focus on 1v1 fights, then you’re missing the point of WvW entirely, which is not to fight other players but to capture and hold territory.

Uh, no. I believe the point of WvW is to be an open world player vs player environment. You can’t say that if someone plays a certain way that it’s wrong. The only wrong way to play a game is if the player is not having fun. I enjoy roaming solo in WvW looking for small fights. I might capture camps if I’m bored. I avoid zerg play entirely because it’s unappealing to me.

DoctorFaust.7103:

The game is bigger than you, and you are refusing to expand your mind to accommodate it.

Sorry but I guess I must be crazy for wanting to play a game in a manner that I enjoy. I did not realize that I would have to change what I enjoy to accommodate the game.

…

Now onto the topic! I play mesmer as my main. My playstyle is phantasm. I’ve faced countless thieves of varying degrees of skill level. I’ve won and lost plenty of times. D/P thieves are definitely annoying not because they are difficult but because they run away fairly easily. My current build has mixed in a lot of dazes and stuns. This, in conjuncture with hard hitting phantasms, has proven to be the bane of many thieves. If they attempt to stealth through the HS combo, I can daze or stun them mid-leap. It also helps that I have an instant cast daze (I can cast this if they use Basilisk Venom on me too). I don’t have a counter for Shadow Refuge (Most I can do is place a chaos storm over it) but that’s usually pulled out earlier in the fight and they aren’t using it to disengage.

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

This post is relavent here too…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Stealth-Disruptor-Trap/3013232

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

D/P thieves are a joke now compared to perplex mesmers, engis, stunlock warriors. We are at the bottom of the totem pole now.

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

There will always be counters to every build. Some players just cant take their loss and move on.

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

Fidel is just that. Think about. If I used Fiddle instead then it would all make sense.

Meh to the rest. So many crying threads in the WvW section I hardly read it. Feel lucky and see my Fidel, or my Fiddle.

VomitSpit.6843:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

There will always be counters to every build. Some players just cant take their loss and move on.

Factually no there isn’t. Thief DP does not have a hard counter. Not a real one if the thief is competent. In WvW mobility and aversion are the name of the game. Thief mobility is high enough out run most but this isn’t the issue. Unless stealth has some hard counter like something that pops you out of it forcibly there really isn’t a counter to it.

Now do not lose your mind over this because in the zerg v zerg environment we live is thief is one of the most useless classes out there outside of scouting. This isn’t up for debate there are too many classes better suited for big fights. So the real complaint is about roaming. I personally feel D/P gets too much but at the same time thief is forced into roaming and small group play to be truly effective. Unless Anet plans to change this no matter how OP thief my seem it’s utility is overall very limited.

i will wait for the obligatory I beat a DP thief roaming so it can be done counter. I respond in advance that thief wasn’t very good then.

I will wait for the obligatory SB cluster bomb is good in a big fight or dagger storm is good counter. I will say hammer is more useful as are engineers, necromancers, eles, and mesmers. Even rangers have better range by far.

Edit

Fidel is just that. Think about. If I used Fiddle instead then it would all make sense.

Meh to the rest. So many crying threads in the WvW section I hardly read it. Feel lucky and see my Fidel, or my Fiddle.

Let me be clear. I do not care. Our conversation is already over.

TheGuy.3568:

VomitSpit.6843:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

TheGuy.3568:

Spazzoni.1703:

Thief? You mean those annoying things who run and heal, then come back to you?

Ignore them and they go away, but a great roaming necro build will destroy them over time. Other then that, any scrub can play a troll thief, good players choose not to roll a thief outside of trolling or GvG.

Sop they roll condi burst necros or stun lock warriors. These good players you mention are simply not there. Players roll with what wins for them it is about as simple as that. As much BS specs we see in WvW I can’t help but wonder who the hell thinks this D/P build is the only cheese we see.

Players like to win, have big fancy tittles, and feel good about them selves. “Good players” generally use the same OP mechanics but justify it with the fact they are using it in a more skillful way. Generally they will say something along the lines of, “Stealth is OP so my thief doesn’t use stealth”. but instead run SD perma evades. Or run a build like hammer warrior and say that other players aren’t dodging. You do not find “good players” in WvW. You generally find those abusing the current FOTM and those abusing the old fotm that people have just come to accept and move on from. The Idea that a place with so much imbalance could actually have “good players” is nearly a joke.

TL;DR
There are some skilled players in WvW, but the idea that they run around in subpar builds being noble is a kittening joke.

Cheese is cheese. you either eat it or stop whining. My Fidel can’t handle anymore.

Plenty of good players around. They’re usually the ones in the 20 man group who just murdered your 50 man zerg.

Hence why thieves are Meh and should be ignored in WvW.

Who runs a condition necro? Oh that’s right, see my Fidel.

Char WArrior running a hammer are just a part of life. Brawler tactics work, shame it caught on. Did I mention my Fidel?

I never understand the stupid kitten people post. You want to have discussion then have it. Whatever this ‘fidel" bullkitten is it doesn’t matter. End of the day people run cheese builds ss dd complaining about one is pointless since there are so many. Oh and a 20 man hammer train inst good play its normal play that is hard to counter. There is not a super good player who shows the masses how it is done. The best players run cheese builds and cheese set ups. Not that big a deal. Anet isn’t changing things in WvW.

There will always be counters to every build. Some players just cant take their loss and move on.

Factually no there isn’t. Thief DP does not have a hard counter. Not a real one if the thief is competent. In WvW mobility and aversion are the name of the game. Thief mobility is high enough out run most but this isn’t the issue. Unless stealth has some hard counter like something that pops you out of it forcibly there really isn’t a counter to it.

Now do not lose your mind over this because in the zerg v zerg environment we live is thief is one of the most useless classes out there outside of scouting. This isn’t up for debate there are too many classes better suited for big fights. So the real complaint is about roaming. I personally feel D/P gets too much but at the same time thief is forced into roaming and small group play to be truly effective. Unless Anet plans to change this no matter how OP thief my seem it’s utility is overall very limited.

i will wait for the obligatory I beat a DP thief roaming so it can be done counter. I respond in advance that thief wasn’t very good then.

I will wait for the obligatory SB cluster bomb is good in a big fight or dagger storm is good counter. I will say hammer is more useful as are engineers, necromancers, eles, and mesmers. Even rangers have better range by far.

Edit

Fidel is just that. Think about. If I used Fiddle instead then it would all make sense.

Meh to the rest. So many crying threads in the WvW section I hardly read it. Feel lucky and see my Fidel, or my Fiddle.

Let me be clear. I do not care. Our conversation is already over.

Ah cool. I don’t have to worry this anymore.

Rane.4079:

Writetyper.1985:

Pretty much any kit/nade engineer build has complete condition coverage besides torment with good uptime. There are several “popular” condition engi builds:

Perplex (This is really just 3kit condi with perplexity runes, use a regular rune instead): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQd53qlCvo8

HGH (Little outdated, still strong): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyQivtpg8jA

You should not have any problem with D/P thieves, you’re a hard counter, even if they stealth just keep tossing nades and they can’t come close. I’ve only ever died 1v1 with a HGH build to S/D because I give him 25 might and can’t keep up boon coverage.

Thanks heaps for the Engi info. I am absolutely terrible at Engi (it’s the only class I have less than 200 sPvP games on, I hate playing it lol). I assume after the perplexity nerf (which we don’t know how strong/weak of a nerf it will be) that at the very least the HGH build should still hard counter D/P?

Yes. As someone who has played both, between two evenly (high) skilled players, engineer condi builds should be able to beat (“Beat” being a kill, not just one side running) a thief quite easily. Perplex builds are just 3kit builds with perplex runes instead of a regular one, a HGH or kit engineer has an advantage over d/p thieves due to coverage and uptime on conditions (By the time shadow’s rejuv has removed a full set of engineer conditions they’re all off cooldown again and the thief is dead), as well as having strong defensive skills and permanent vigour (on kit, not HGH), AoE CC to catch them in stealth, and so forth. Mainly the coverage, even if a thief blows all his condition removal he’s still going to be covered in several conditions. You should give engineer a go, once you really get into it it’s one of the more fun classes to me, despite having more of a learning cliff than a learning curve.

I think I mentioned this before in the thread but I can’t find it, so, other classes/builds that might not have an issue:

Dhummfire Necro. I’ve never properly played necro but they have a lot of sustainability, as well as pretty good coverage on conditions and strong AoE. Ballpark estimate is that the matchup is necro favoured, although don’t go making a necro on my accord.

Spirit/Condi (Traps?) Ranger. I have played a LOT of condi ranger in tPvP and going against a d/p is definitely a very ranger favoured matchup (I’ll never forget the day I left some traps on a point and I killed a thief while being on the other side of the map… lol) due to high evades, good coverage and near-permanent protection (And soon, sick ‘em). I don’t know if this would be the case in WvW as I play a silly full zerkers sword/greatsword ranger (yolo) but from what I’ve seen a well played spirit trap or quickness condi ranger is definitely the better in this matchup.

S/D Burst ele: Does easily more burst than a dp thief, you’ll be able to instakill them if they slip up before arcane shield is even popped, although this is a high risk/reward build that requires YOU to play better than the thief to kill them. The favoured one here is the better player, it’s a pretty balanced matchup, if you get outplayed you’ll lose.

Skull crack warrior: Can build defensively and do damage at the same time, should be good? Might have trouble catching one though. I don’t run this

Ross Biddle.2367:

love the opening comment in the first vid

“Q: Why Runes of Perplexity since “they’re broken / OP”?
A: Perplexity being “broken” is a matter of opinion. I agree they are very strong…."

Anet’s opinion are that they’re broken and will be changed. Only opinion that matter now.

Irrelevant. All comments I made apply to “regular” engineer builds as I’ve never even run perplex, standard builds work fine enough for me and I don’t like “faceroll” kitten.

This post is made from the perspective of a Mesmer.

So, as was mentioned a few times, the strength of the d/p thief lies in their ability to disengage through stealth. The obvious solution is to diminish this ability or to play in such a way that it doesn’t matter.

Direct Counter

Interrupts.

A d/p thief relies on traits that regain initiative in stealth and when using skills that stealth them. Black powder has a fairly hefty initiative cost, and if they aren’t able to stealth in it, that cost will add up rapidly. Well timed interrupts during the hss to stealth will rapidly remove the ability of the thief to disengage. Good skills for this are magic bullet, mantra of distraction, illusionary wave, and temporal curtain.

Additionally, d/p thieves absolutely must get more than 1 stealth combo out of each black powder otherwise they will run out of initiative rapidly. Standing in the field, while irritating to get blinded, will ensure that they can only get one combo.

Once the thief is low on intiative, they are vulnerable because they have lost their disengage ability. Capitalize on that fact with strong burst.

Indirect Counter

Burst damage.

D/p thieves aren’t generally known for their hearty dispositions. A strong burst combo can kill them in one go. This can be accomplished with a full shatter unload (diversion for vuln into wrack and bf). That can be done in less than a second, and so is extremely difficult to counter unless you see it coming.

Phantasm mesmers also do well. The phantasm Mesmer requires a bit of setup. You need to get 3 phantasms summoned on the thief, preferably swordsmen and duelists. Then you need to take a bit of damage. Try to do this when they don’t have BV ready or it could be painful, but the idea is to get the thief revealed. Due to how their ai works, all 3 phantasms will instantly attack the thief, landing the majority of the damage during the after cast of backstab. A quick blurred frenzy or a stun and shatter will easily finish them off.

Another way to do this is with a condition Mesmer burst. This can actually be the most effective mainly because it’s the most unexpected, and I’ve ended a lot of fights with d/p thieves within 5 seconds of engagement. The combo is something along the lines of getting the scepter block for torment, a few staff clones for burning, confusing images (perplex runes) for confusion, and then several clone deaths for bleeds and cover. What that combo does is apply 5 torment, burn, ~6-7 stacks of bleeding, and 8 stacks of confusion in around 3-5 seconds. I run with 2000 condition damage, and so not counting the confusion, that does about 3000 dps. On top of that you’ll have cripple, vuln, and weakness for cover. Since the d/p thief only removes one condition every 3 seconds, this kills the thief. If they attempt to escape via stealth, they’ll hit themselves with confusion a few times making the process even faster. The only real counter to that combo for a low hp class is to not get hit with it.

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Playing as p/p perplexity thief I’m destroying d/p thieves non stop, interrupting their heartseeker multiple times when they try to go through a smoke field is one of the funniest things I’ve done in this game. It is also one of THE MOST predictable things to counter.

The nooby d/p thieves won’t know when utility goggles or berserker stance is on, and assume that their target is being perma blinded, and instead get their face melted.

Ermagurd you guys, mah perplexity 4 spam is bettah den der 2 spam.

Funnest way to kill a d/p thief? Lava tomb.

Rane.4079:

I am sincerely asking if there is any spec in the game that can actually beat them in a 1v1?

Everyone has encountered the roaming D/P Thief that can smoke field -> leap finisher, refuge, etc. They do enough damage over the fight to kill almost anything that isn’t a pure tank, can shadowstep out of stuns and stealth to reset the fight at any point, drop conditions while in stealth and regen health.

So does any good D/P thief think there’s a class/spec that straight up beats them 1v1? The only class I’ve heard say they beat them is certain Mesmer builds (I have heard both the perplexity rune and phantasm mesmers beat them), but I’ve also heard some D/P thieves claim to beat these classes too. Obviously one of them is mistaken.

Obligatory Disclaimer: Please do not post if you have no idea what you’re talking about. Yes, I too have killed hundreds of Thieves, but it’s because they don’t know what they’re doing.

I loath the use of “competent” that this thread has used. This thread is carcinogenic.

Usually equal skill and equal gear will lead to a stalemate if both players avoid overextending and avoid the hard hitters of the other. I am talking from a thief`s perspective here, if your opponent has a decent build and the same gear level as you have you will not be able to finish him without taking extreme risks and having a kittenload of luck(I do not consider getting away alive with the other guy alive as winning).
So what you do to win is you use the enviroment to your advantage, there is no easy recipe it dependes on where you fight, use everything npcs cliffs critters, strave and jump turn and DO NOT PANIC. If the envitoment does not favor you move the fight find a pillar and hug it your live depends on pillars recruit.

If you are a ranger forget the statements above you will never beat a decent thief 1v1 you guys have my pity.

Hello OP,

With regards to your post, “competent D/P Thief,” I will assume you are talking about the 30 Shadow Arts perma-stealth thief build.

To be completely honest, you probably will never actually kill a good perma-stealth thief that is intent on surviving. On the flip side, the chances of the perma-stealth thief killing you is also rather slim.

Its just one of the very many stalemate type situations in this game. Its not so much about “skill,” but simply that there are certain mechanics in the game of Guild Wars 2 that can be broken and abused in certain builds such as the perma-stealth D/P Thief, perma-evade S/D thief, bunker warrior, etc. And while the end result of these builds may not exactly be “overpowered” per-say, they are still rather one-dimensional and boring to play as and against. As such, they are “broken,” builds that need to be re-adjusted to fit in more with the game of Guild Wars 2.

D/P thieves are easy kills IF they want to fight. Most just troll or strafe targets hoping for an easy kill. IMO there should be no perma-stealth in the game. I don’t think anyone likes chasing these builds around especially when clearing a keep.

I am a thief primary and I very much dislike the design of D/P.

Rangers are actually well suited to killing D/P thieves, we have all the right tools.

1. Cast Rampage as One
2. Pop (traited) signet of stone
3. Drop stealth trap, it’s not possible for them to interrupt or damage you
4. You Win

D/P chain stealth is cheap, you gotta go cheaper. No shame in my game.
It’s not hard to get 10 supply. More of you guys should be doing this. It’s free thief tears to keep your pets from getting thirsty.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Sanduskel.1850:

Niim.9260:

D/P thief is a crutch build, it is what you play when you like to PvP with training wheels. I typically just laugh at them and move on.

Yep, scrub build for scrubs relying on an exploit of stealth mechanics to perma stealth.

A player “exploiting” mechanics to gain advantage and achieve victory is the very opposite definition of the term scrub. A scrub is someone who makes up their own rules of game play and victory contrary to the actual in game rules/mechanics.

incorrect. a scrub is someone who plays cheesy builds that are easy mode training wheels. anet even admitted that they never intended perma stealth. they just don’t know how to fix it.

That’s not a scrub. What you’re refering to is a “foo strategy”, and they’re good, albiet important for games.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/GS-iBezerker-a-foo-strategy/first#post959455

The Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

you are welcome to your opinion. most of us disagree.

I suppose if you want to create your own definition of the term you’re welcome to it. But seeing as Sirlin coined the term, and introduced it to the gaming world, I think I’ll just stick with his definition within the larger discussion/thesis which is “Playing to win”..

Sanduskel, you’re in your right to have your own opinion on whether permastealth is low skill or not (though not everyone will agree, that’s what an opinion is after all). But ross bidle is right that you are misusing the term “scrub”. Just change the word to, I don’t know, noob/amateur/whatever and the problem is solved.

I tried to read this whole thread but after one side it got to much for me. You ask people for their opinion but everytime you get one exaggerated your answer is “you didn’t get it” or “your opinion is bullkitten”.

I could tell you know that there are quite alot of builds that easily burst down a d/p in seconds if he is stupid enough to get out of stealth and then going their way as nothing happened but you dont seems to want to hear that.
What kept me speechless anyways was the fact that you claimed that if YOU run away you accomplished anything. Fact is that if you run away your enemy wont stop doing whatever he was doing before (you have to kill him for that) and i can only talk for me but my engi burns down a camp in under 30 seconds. So if you disengage i ll just start emptying the camp i m aiming for and by the time you come to down me while fighting the guards will either be dead already or keep me rallying and i have yet to see a d/p thief that can keep anyone from capping an empty camp.

Fast Asleep.8475:

i have yet to see a d/p thief that can keep anyone from capping an empty camp.

You’ll have to encounter the non to low-stealth D/P builds for that. They aren’t that popular but they exist. A big chance they’d run a second set though since D/P isn’t that well against a condi spec without using stealth.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Fast Asleep.8475:

i have yet to see a d/p thief that can keep anyone from capping an empty camp.

You’ll have to encounter the non to low-stealth D/P builds for that. They aren’t that popular but they exist. A big chance they’d run a second set though since D/P isn’t that well against a condi spec without using stealth.

Then again, low stealth takes some skill, unlike the noob permastealth training wheels.

Sanduskel.1850:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Fast Asleep.8475:

i have yet to see a d/p thief that can keep anyone from capping an empty camp.

You’ll have to encounter the non to low-stealth D/P builds for that. They aren’t that popular but they exist. A big chance they’d run a second set though since D/P isn’t that well against a condi spec without using stealth.

Then again, low stealth takes some skill, unlike the noob permastealth training wheels.

And what does that has to do with my post?

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Sanduskel.1850:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Fast Asleep.8475:

i have yet to see a d/p thief that can keep anyone from capping an empty camp.

You’ll have to encounter the non to low-stealth D/P builds for that. They aren’t that popular but they exist. A big chance they’d run a second set though since D/P isn’t that well against a condi spec without using stealth.

Then again, low stealth takes some skill, unlike the noob permastealth training wheels.

And what does that has to do with my post?

I am agreeing with you, lol. Low stealth dp can be a great spec but you can’t be a scrub to playit.

Everytime they run and reset the fight count that as a win. By the time they actually kill you, you’ve beaten the 3+ times.

As I understand it, fireworks beat dagger thieves.

Dynnen.6405:

Everytime they run and reset the fight count that as a win. By the time they actually kill you, you’ve beaten the 3+ times.

that’s an excuse for a poor mechanic.

Dynnen.6405:

Everytime they run and reset the fight count that as a win. By the time they actually kill you, you’ve beaten the 3+ times.

Too bad the score says otherwise =)

It is all in the timing. I can beat d/p thieves with my Guardian, Mesmer or Engineer just as many times as they beat me.

With my engie for example I have my crate and turrets and I place them on my perimeter. If they drop refuge count 9 seconds from the moment the house disappears, roll out and drop the crate. Two net turrets, one from the crate and the other a placed one will in most cases hold him until you finish him off. Mind you the perplexity runes do help and with the upcoming nerf to them I may have to adapt.

With a mesmer keep moa in your bar, time things again and moa the thief. You can usually put him down before that spell wears off. The best time to use this is after the thief has dropped shadow refuge. Use GS 5, “Illusionary Wave” on the house. It will knock the thief out of the refuge and reveal him. Immediately moa him and take him out. A thief will drop refuge if their initiative is getting low, it is their last option and it has the longest cooldown.

The main thing is timing. Know how many seconds he has in stealth before reveal or he has to reuse blinding powder

Theftwind.8976:

The main thing is timing. Know how many seconds he has in stealth before reveal or he has to reuse blinding powder

Yep, and that comes from learning the class by playing it yourself.

Ultravalefor.5038:

Rangers are actually well suited to killing D/P thieves, we have all the right tools.

1. Cast Rampage as One
2. Pop (traited) signet of stone
3. Drop stealth trap, it’s not possible for them to interrupt or damage you
4. You Win

D/P chain stealth is cheap, you gotta go cheaper. No shame in my game.
It’s not hard to get 10 supply. More of you guys should be doing this. It’s free thief tears to keep your pets from getting thirsty.

5. Channeled skills that track the target through stealth.

Sanduskel.1850:

Dynnen.6405:

Everytime they run and reset the fight count that as a win. By the time they actually kill you, you’ve beaten the 3+ times.

that’s an excuse for a poor mechanic.

I know, lol.

I never lose to thieves in wvw. Traps and spirits just massacre them when you add a little s/d evasion.

The short answer is no. Everyone have their story of how they beat a thief. I’m pretty sure most of those are not even roamers. A d/p thief simply have more options than any other class. So assuming equal skill the person with more options wins. What are these options? Stealth on demand, break stun on demand, daze and blind on demand and burst damage on demand + faster movement speed . Since anet gave everyone traveler runes which is a huge boon for thieves means they can run scorp wire or shadow trap instead if signet of kitten . It just make a very good class even better.

Mogar.9216:

signet of kitten

This one won the thread.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yeah. Mesmer. Don’t build glassy. Out condi apply/duration their removal. Don’t bring a staff to a thief fight. iWarden to negate ranged attacks, and to cover you in open field from melee. Temporal curtain to counter shadow refuge. Channeled scepter to strike/follow while they’re stealthed (also applies confusion stacks at a constant rate to block condi removals behind them like burns and bleeds). iMage for confusion the moment they come out of stealth plus retal for mesmer. Sword iLeap for CC and burst. Torments always a kitten too. Clone on death to soft cc the hell out of them/punish attacking clones.

Then high mobility and long ranged blinks to give chase.

If all else fails, lead them to a cliff and pull them into the void.

Disagree.. condition build staff is strong. If the clones (not phantasms) go unchecked they apply huge dmg and pressure. D/P thief is hard to finish because they can easily run away. I have never found any problems against a thief in a duel though – they cant reset the fight so it’s a lot easier. Roaming thieves are very strong though.

Also, engineers seem to be the anti thief. Great burst, tanky, great healing.. they’re well set to counter any thief build even with their generic condition builds.

Ryan.9387:

I never lose to thieves in wvw. Traps and spirits just massacre them when you add a little s/d evasion.

Spirit/Regen ranger OP against any class lol

I’d say Perplexity Stomp Warriors but I had to fight two D\P thieves with that build and didn’t do so well. Might as well fight cheap with cheap.

A D/P thief with better ping?

All valid points, but how about this.

Why not play a competent class?

Thoughts?