Guild Wars 2

I’m on IoJ, and we’re currently in a great matchup in T1. I am trying to coordinate everybody on the JQ BL, and it’s been crazy. Redlake was sieged by SBI, Hills was being attacked by JQ. We lost Redlake, Lowlands, but held hills. Clawed back Redlake and the camp.

So we start escorting dolyaks. And a rogue kills the dolyak i’m standing beside before he even become visible. I got maybe 3 hits on him before the dolyak died, and only because i recognized the little black swirl. Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that a dolyak dies that fast to 1 person? I don’t care if you’re all in exotics with a glass cannon build, if we can’t kill you in the 3 seconds it takes to kill the dolyak, we’re screwed. We can’t get dolyaks into the keep and tower because the dolyaks die before our defenders can even react.

I really really really wish people would stop calling Thieves “Rogues”. We aren’t Rogues and this isn’t Warcrap.

Other than that, all I suggest is get the upgrade that has escorts for the Dolyaks. The scout is able to cast about a 5 second AoE blind and the guard can immobolize the thief. Upgrades are meant to be bought.

dolyaks should be more tough and the escorts should be killed before dolyak can be touched.

afaik rogue is from back in the dnd days. Thief is just a recent cosmetic name change for a familiar playstyle, I wouldn’t worry about it.

3 secs does sound a little extreme but I’m inclined to side with the thief here. If he or she is specced for their task then maybe appropriately specced characters should be running the dolyaks.

It’s the culling issue, not a Thief issue. Hopefully the next patch will fix it. Then you should be able to see the Thief coming and be able to target him when stealth ends.

I fully expect Thief burst to be nerfed as well so everyone can put their pitchforks back in the barn.

ArenaNet nerfed the assassin multiple times in GW1, I would expect the same with thief.

But still, this topic is a bit… meh…

I mean, there are tons of CC in this game to stop that from happening. You see a dolyak getting damaged, used Fear Me as a warrior. Use marks as a necro. Use bubbles as a guardian. Use blinds as an elementalist. Use blinding powder as another thief. Use traps as a ranger.

You’re able to change your utilities out of combat. Escorting a Dolyak gives you a lot of out of combat time. You shouldn’t be sitting in the same spec for every task, especially if it’s NOT getting the job done.

dolyaks are meant to be soloable.

It’s an issue with the thief capabilities coupled with graphic issues more than the dolyaks.

Pretty certain at this point any and all wvwvw problems can be solved by rendering fixes.

RouletteVice.2850:

Pretty certain at this point any and all wvwvw problems can be solved by rendering fixes.

Don’t think so – but many grievances can be alleviated by it and would allow ANet time and resources to focus on actual improvements and balancing.

Doly should never be able to be soloed. NOT EVER.
The killing of supplies is way too easy in the game. Solo Doly should need at least 3 people to have a chance and escorted should need 10+ do do any damage.

To take out a supply chain with 1 person is in itself completely stupid. My Guardian can take out a supply camp solo … I rely doubt that that was intended.

Instead of buffing dolys and supply camps I say we nerf guardians.

Umeil.5384:

Doly should never be able to be soloed. NOT EVER.
The killing of supplies is way too easy in the game. Solo Doly should need at least 3 people to have a chance and escorted should need 10+ do do any damage.

To take out a supply chain with 1 person is in itself completely stupid. My Guardian can take out a supply camp solo … I rely doubt that that was intended.

Having them soloable increases the motivation for guarding them.
An unescorted Dolyak should never present dangers to anybody as it’s basically just a truck. Escort your supplies if not wanting them busted.

I dont have a problem to escort but they die way too easy for the ease it takes to get to them. If supply lines were more “safe” i dont mind escorting an unsafe line. But fact is without any trouble at all one can get to every supply camp/line and take it. If you dont have the needed tower you should not be able to push back into rear supply lines

Umeil.5384:

I dont have a problem to escort but they die way too easy for the ease it takes to get to them. If supply lines were more “safe” i dont mind escorting an unsafe line. But fact is without any trouble at all one can get to every supply camp/line and take it. If you dont have the needed tower you should not be able to push back into rear supply lines

That would remove some servers from doing anything at all in WvW at times. They must and should be vulnerable to encourage defense and raids

Xandax.1753:

Umeil.5384:

Doly should never be able to be soloed. NOT EVER.
The killing of supplies is way too easy in the game. Solo Doly should need at least 3 people to have a chance and escorted should need 10+ do do any damage.

To take out a supply chain with 1 person is in itself completely stupid. My Guardian can take out a supply camp solo … I rely doubt that that was intended.

Having them soloable increases the motivation for guarding them.
An unescorted Dolyak should never present dangers to anybody as it’s basically just a truck. Escort your supplies if not wanting them busted.

you quite clearly haven’t read the first post

I did. 1 class killing a doly=stupid. no dolly should ever be taken out by 1 person. Theives(rouges) are out of control (everyone already knows this that is why every 2nd toon is one)

Umeil.5384:

I did. 1 class killing a doly=stupid. no dolly should ever be taken out by 1 person. Theives(rouges) are out of control (everyone already knows this that is why every 2nd toon is one)

So a dolyak which can’t fight for itself should need an entire zerg to kill it?

I guess you want sentries to need zergs too.

Here is some information on how each objective scales in terms of reward and required number of players.

First for reward, in order of lowest first:
Dolyak, Sentry, Supply, Tower, Keep, Stonemist

And for how many players you actually need to beat it, lowest number first:
Dolyak, Sentry, Supply, Tower, Keep, Stonemist

Oh wait it’s identical! That’s because the harder the objective the greater the reward, but also the more players needed to beat it!

But how many players do you actually need for each (given that there are no enemy players)?

Dolyak: 1, lowest reward
Sentry: 1/2, lowest reward.
Supply: 2 – 5, medium reward.
Tower: 5 – 10, medium reward.
etc.

Only problem with this is that you can actually solo supply camps.

I think it’s okay if one player is able to take out the dolyak but the issue is that it’s 3 seconds. It should take 10 seconds so if it’s being escorted you will need to deal with the player.

I know the order. Prob is Doly give the most over a days work as they just so easy to take out.

What we should do is make them much tougher, so no one needs to bother to escort them and we can all make sure everyone stays safely within hand holding distance of the zerg.

The escort or increased supply delivery should at least double dolyak hp. It won’t stop them from being solo’d, but it will make it so you have a chance to defend them. That said I’d go a step further and give even more defense to dolyaks with the tier 2 upgrades (one of which is 50 freaking silver without a decent return).

Another, perhaps better way to go about it would be to make the dolyak immune to damage while the 2 escort guards are alive.

This is why you just shouldn’t give classes stealth.

There are MANY builds that can solo kill a dolyak in just a few seconds.

It’s just that only one of those builds gets free stealth which, with culling, is basically a guaranteed dolyak kill before he even shows up on the defenders screens.

The AI guards should provide some buffs to the yak. It’s way too easy to burst down the yak while using CC or a pet to keep them off you.

Personally, I think the dolyak should explode or leave some kind of hazardous field upon death. Those who attempt to solo the yak might have to consider the consequences first. I mean, it does carry a bunch of supplies around. Maybe those supplies have to be “handled with care” or something bad could happen.

In T1 it takes more than 1 person to guard the yak, its a group effort at least. So if only one person was guarding it then there are several classes who could likely kill a yak in under 10 seconds and not stress about 1 escort stopping them.

The reason they can have the luxury of killing it so fast is they were not worried about the one escort and can blow cool-downs and not stress exit route.

I think some people are confusing the issue. It’s not a question or problem of the dolyak’s being solo-able, it’s an issue about the dolyak’s being defensible.

I did experience first hand thief killing Dolyak and even with two players escorting being killed in less than 10 seconds. We tried to kill the thief but their almost unlimited stealth made things harder and with their sudden bursts of damage, we don’t have time to react with CC and all.

its fun being HoD fighting JQ 3-4 weeks before, cause u get to fight a guild of 20 to get a supply, prepare to face 15+ JQ to kill a yak. They are losing side that time and they pull everything they can to save a supply source, escort supply for keep upgrade, from there starting building treb for next keep.

All those ruining of supply, long battle for a well prepared keep fight takes often > 5-6 hours. We also used to guard the yak with at least 5ppl, and usually 10 ppl, when we need a tower as frontline to seige keep.

Was doing this on Friday to JQ’s greenlake yaks, I agree it is broken to be able to kill them before the defenders take you out – a death is a small price to pay, and even that is often avoidable.

Its not a problem that dolyaks are trivially soloable, its that they are soloable while being actively guarded by players, at even 3:1 odds – toss in undergeared/low level players and you can make that 5+.

Doly guards are as useless as the white mobs, kill doly, and guards disapear. Well spent upgrade indeed…

the dolyaks are fine.. dolyak are important npc to the whole supply chain for keeps, tower and stonemist. its how players fight for it to prevent or to make sure the dolyak reaches its objective thus making it very vulnerable. The problem is not with the dolyak, its the rendering issue with thief stealth. so if the dev fixed the issue.. u wouldnt have this problem again. And Npc guards is never enough to just escort dolyaks especially when one server have just capped stonemist you shouldnt expect easy delivery of supplies. you have to fight for it to reach its destination. that is what make’s wvwvw fun when we capture Stonemist, The challenge to maintain SM

Dolyaks are meant to be do-able goals in solo or two-person groups, along with the sentries.

This is to give achievable goals to small / unaffiliated groups (who might otherwise miss out), while giving them the feeling that they’re helping (and that they are, as those Dolyaks are <3).

I believe that was already pointed out by the developers in a previous post.

Plus, c’mon. If you were in a war, would you send a whole regiment just to stop supply chains? No, you’d use small, agile teams that can hit and run, and lay traps / ambushes.

Thieves have OP damage and stealth, which combined with the game not rendering them = death.

Eisenhart.7965:

Dolyaks are meant to be do-able goals in solo or two-person groups, along with the sentries.

This is to give achievable goals to small / unaffiliated groups (who might otherwise miss out), while giving them the feeling that they’re helping (and that they are, as those Dolyaks are <3).

I believe that was already pointed out by the developers in a previous post.

Plus, c’mon. If you were in a war, would you send a whole regiment just to stop supply chains? No, you’d use small, agile teams that can hit and run, and lay traps / ambushes.

Of course you would send a whole regiment. That is how wars are won.

Avatara.1042:

Eisenhart.7965:

Dolyaks are meant to be do-able goals in solo or two-person groups, along with the sentries.

This is to give achievable goals to small / unaffiliated groups (who might otherwise miss out), while giving them the feeling that they’re helping (and that they are, as those Dolyaks are <3).

I believe that was already pointed out by the developers in a previous post.

Plus, c’mon. If you were in a war, would you send a whole regiment just to stop supply chains? No, you’d use small, agile teams that can hit and run, and lay traps / ambushes.

Of course you would send a whole regiment. That is how wars are won.

I hope that is sarcasm. :/

But seriously lol, no. o_O

If you send a large group, it will get spotted. There is risk, opportunity cost, and other consequences.

Would you risk an entire group to a pointless confrontation in the middle of nowhere just for a dolyak, when that group could be taking a supply point, reinforcing defenders or adding weight to an offensive? Even if you win that small encounter, you’ve been spotted, and lost time you could’ve used doing something more productive with such a large group.

Actually happens to us sometimes. A group breaks off the zerg, segues just to kill a sentry or something when the enemy is right at the corner.

If one or two people are enough, then so be it. Frankly, if it was unguarded and un-upgraded, any class would’ve killed it in a sufficiently short amount of time anyway, thief or otherwise. I myself would bleed/condition a dolyak to death in less than 20-30 lol.

The issue isnt so much Dolyak health, as it is the thief’s skills he cast to kill it.

It’s the same skill set up that you can see 99% of the complaints about them being OP in damage using.

Sun Tzu from The Art of War.

“With regard to ground of this nature, be before the enemy in occupying the raised and sunny spots, and carefully guard your line of supplies.”

Syn.3459:

Xandax.1753:

Umeil.5384:

Doly should never be able to be soloed. NOT EVER.
The killing of supplies is way too easy in the game. Solo Doly should need at least 3 people to have a chance and escorted should need 10+ do do any damage.

To take out a supply chain with 1 person is in itself completely stupid. My Guardian can take out a supply camp solo … I rely doubt that that was intended.

Having them soloable increases the motivation for guarding them.
An unescorted Dolyak should never present dangers to anybody as it’s basically just a truck. Escort your supplies if not wanting them busted.

you quite clearly haven’t read the first post

Actually – it seems like you quite clearly haven’t read the thread, or just don’t understand context.
The issue in the OP is not an issue with dolyaks, but with thieves and the game’s rendering issues.

Dolyaks must be soloable.

Now that you know its happening…prepare for it.

You need AOE CC abilities, blinds, damage. Skills that don’t require a target.

On my engineer I just drop a smoke bomb on the dolyak and then nade/bomb the kitten out of the area and the thief dies.

On the topic of dolyak escorting in this match…SBI is on their kitten. I’m a dolyak ganker 90% of the time and I have been having to recruit people to help me cause those kittens escort every kitten dolyak. lol

The dolyaks have really low HP and can be healed. Any of a guardians heals will put a quarter of a HP bar back on it.

Just stick some support classes on it that can aegis, heal, reflect etc.

I have many a time on my guardian kept a dolyak alive through a group attacking a gate at a tower.

Several classes can run in and kill a Yak no problem even if being escorted by a few. I have done this many times. Yes you die, but you get the job done. It becomes to the point where you need many to escort or don’t bother, your wasting your time. And caravan guards do not really help either.

The problem with this is that there are times or servers with lower population, that makes it impossible to escort while trying to do other things on the map. Most servers have a lack of people at this point.

What I would like to see is camp upgrades actually be useful.

Give dolyaks AI and theif skills.

What the hell are you talking about Eisenhart? You asked ‘if you were in a war, would you send an entire regiment to take a supply?’ Of course you would. Because in a war, the supply would be heavily defended, and without that supply you DIE. Your GW2 rant is meaningless.

I think that dolyaks should be soloable if they are not guarded at the time. However it should be possible to actually guard the silly things. As it stands its possible for a couple people to just spike it down in a mater of seconds even if a vastly superior force is guarding it. Yes its a suicide run but they got their objective done.

What I would suggest is dont buff the dolyak’s HP but give it a % based damage reduction for each friendly NPC within a close proximity of the yak. If for example each player and guard withen 600-900ish range from the yak gave it 10% reduction an escort of 5-8 players all but forces the enemy to engage or drive off the guards before killing the yak. No more LOL nuke bomb and run, no you’ve actualy got to fight the players. This would alow for soloing undefended yaks (or yaks with only NPC guards) like now but make it progressively harder to take down defended yaks unless you have sufficent forces to wipe out the defenders as well.

Avatara.1042:

What the hell are you talking about Eisenhart? You asked ‘if you were in a war, would you send an entire regiment to take a supply?’ Of course you would. Because in a war, the supply would be heavily defended, and without that supply you DIE. Your GW2 rant is meaningless.

You misunderstand (and furthermore, I wasn’t the one ranting, I responded to the one that did). I simply quoted him/her.

What I meant was, you do NEED to defend them (if yours), and deny it (if the enemy’s). My point was that over committing resources in either situation is bad. If you only needed a small group to attack / defend, why send a lot more than you need?

He who tries to defend everything, defends nothing – either you’ll be spread out too thin, or those people won’t be where they’re really needed.

E.g., if the enemy has their zerg trying to kill a dolyak with a few defenders, then that zerg is definitely NOT attacking a keep, or defending a tower. It’s there, in the middle of nowhere, AND the enemy knows where it is.

Once again your point completely fails because you asked the guy what would you do in a war, and spoke of regiments. If you want to talk about what you would do in GW2 then fine, do it. But stop talking about war.

My dear Avatara, there are things in this world called analogies.

It was an analogy, and frankly, a relevant one, as we are playing WvWvW, yes?

If I must explain it step-by-step: I am likening supply lines to dolyak supply caravans, and raiders to to those who harass and try to disrupt these.

In the same sense, in a real war, would you have your whole army (or overly large parts of it) guarding a single supply line? No, right? You have convoys and small detachments do that job (in much the same way as having a player-sized group or so guard a dolyak caravan would work), right?

I hope this elementary explanation is sufficient.

Thank you.

So you believe your analogy was relevant, when what you do in war is completely different to what you do in GW2, especially with regard to supplies? Instead of relevant, you should use ridiculous. It is far more relevant.

The problem is that you cannot effectively guard them because they die to fast. A smart 1-2 players will always succeed in killing a dolyak even if you have a group guarding it.

They just have paper HP.

My hope is for a third tier of supply camp upgrades that increase dolyak speed / toughness.