Guild Wars 2

You have to realize people making content such as new maps are totally different people from the ones doing the backend server architechture.

A fifth map could actually solve the skill lag, I guess.

The skill lag is caused by large zerg battles. And with a fifth map, they could lower the limit of how many people can play on each map, and still have room so everyone can play in WvW.

They need to find out how to reduce the data that is being from server to client and client to server.

But yea, I think that is hard to do

I’ve really got to wonder. Getting home this Friday afternoon, I jump on to do some of the invasion events. Full maps. 0 lag. After them I jump into WvW. Its a quiet night for WvW as the scores won’t change. No large scale fights. Just some casual PvDoor farming. Maybe 60 players on the map between the 3 servers at most. Almost full skill lag where you skills just straight up arent working. I jump back and do another event. No lag.

I don’t know what the cap is on a PvE map, but its definitely alot more than 60. There are alot more actions/skills being used in the map and its perfect. I mean really, what is the go?

What new map?

/15charsz

Haworth.4561:

A fifth map could actually solve the skill lag, I guess.

The skill lag is caused by large zerg battles. And with a fifth map, they could lower the limit of how many people can play on each map, and still have room so everyone can play in WvW.

Sadly while the game mechanics encourages zerging, it doesn’t matter how many maps there are, people will still zerg. I think this is something they said they were going to address though so we’ll see what happens.

That would be the 5 capture points where the quaggan/krait are now.

But about the lag, I’ve lagged in WvW in EB before, mainly at SMC during a three way fight. Recently I’ve had lag in Frostgorge Sound doing the champ farm, while almost everyone else in the server was doing an invasion on another map. I’ve also seen lag when we in WvW went up against a T1 server and it looked like it was 60v60 or more.

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

DevonCarver.5370:

Swamurabi.7890:

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

Strictly speaking the lag isn’t due to population per se, it is due to concentrated groups of players using skills on each other. The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does. So if you get enough people fighting against one another, or even fighting with one another, you start to see server CPU problems.

This would explain why I am able to have higher culling setting in PvE but need lower culling settings in WvW.

Maybe we should contact Intel and rage them to make faster CPU’s

DevonCarver.5370:

The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does.

Thanks for your patience replying to everyone who keeps poking you about this, I’d probably have become a hermit by now if I were you

However what you’re saying seems to be missing one significant factor in my experience, and one which your team can optimise without changing the engine. Here’s a simple thing I’ve noticed: when there’s a massive fight in garrison or SM, it always lags horribly. When there’s a massive fight in Bay or Hills with comparable numbers, it doesn’t lag much if at all.

What’s the difference between Bay/Hills and Garrison/SM? The latter have multiple floors. At any horizontal position, there is only one floor in Bay/Hills (except for the bridge in Hills) whereas there are 3-4 floors inside Garrison/SM. As a former game modder (with full engine access) who roughly understands the current state of the art in physics engines, I think it’s really quite expected that the collision calculations take longer in that kind of environment…

So my question is this: do you know how much of skill lag comes from collision detection versus damage calculation? And if it’s mostly the former when it’s lagging really badly as I suspect, what about limiting the number of floors in future maps or even changing the current maps accordingly. Don’t get me wrong, the extra floors can be a lot of fun in Garrison/SM, but I’d much rather not have skill lag!

Again thanks for your many replies recently, and I hope your apparent lack of interest in the GvG scene is hinting at a longer-term GvG project by another team rather than a genuine dislike for it.

Rodney.1470:

Personally, those new events in the borderlands with the so called “new orbs of power” seem more like PvE events.

Lol as wvw stands atm its just pvd with the odd occasion of blob v blob and massive skill lag.

Hopefully the new update will bring back some small scale fights, because as it stands atm nobody will stop to fight, even attacking them 1v2, nine times out of ten they will just continue to run to the commander whilst dying in the process. Which makes me wonder why they’re even in wvw in the first place.

If people didn’t just zerg everything we wouldnt have skill lag.

Yes but people are always playing with other people, that’s in the human nature

It is a hardware problem. The hardware starts to get pegged out when a bunch of people are using a bunch of skills on each other at the same time in the same place. Assuming that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars upgrading their hardware isn’t a viable solution at the moment, making a new map and creating more capture points is probably next best bet.

timidobserver.7925:

It is a hardware problem.

I completely disagree.

It’s a game design problem. The engineers and designers are supposed to know the limitations of their engines and hardware. Yet they create a playground with a specific set of rules that exceeds its limitations.

Calae.1738:

timidobserver.7925:

It is a hardware problem.

I completely disagree.

It’s a game design problem. The engineers and designers are supposed to know the limitations of their engines and hardware. Yet they create a playground with a specific set of rules that exceeds its limitations.

Well that is obvious, but unfortunately time machines haven’t been invented yet.

So, assuming that going back in time and undoing mistakes that were made a years ago when the game was designed isn’t an option, I think that the direction they are going in the present does help begin the process of solving the problem. Then again, I guess they could take your approach and do nothing and just lament over the past design decisions that lead to the problem.

timidobserver.7925:

It is a hardware problem. The hardware starts to get pegged out when a bunch of people are using a bunch of skills on each other at the same time in the same place. Assuming that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars upgrading their hardware isn’t a viable solution at the moment, making a new map and creating more capture points is probably next best bet.

Upgrading the hardware isn’t really the answer. Thier servers handle it just fine, it’s the clients computers that can’t.

I’ve never had my fps drop below 10. I’ve talked to people in the exact same fight have their fps drop down to 1.

When you load into a map, you don’t load the entire map. This is why, when you enter into a map that has a massive zerg war going on, you don’t automatically bog down even when facing the direction the zerg battle is at.

Only when you get within a certain range do you begin to lag and this is because only at a certain distance is the zergfest finally loaded on your end.

The tricks they were using before with culling and now particle effects culling is to reduce the amount of information being processed client side.

What I think they should do is to kind of create a local overflow. Think of it like culling on steriods. Instead of both ally and enemy players not rendering, after the zerg gets to a certain size, a local overflow occurs and players from all three sides in the immediate area would enter the overflow.

As seen by the client side, it would appear to be culling, but unlike culling, it’s more than just a lack of rendering.

Deamhan.9538:

timidobserver.7925:

It is a hardware problem. The hardware starts to get pegged out when a bunch of people are using a bunch of skills on each other at the same time in the same place. Assuming that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars upgrading their hardware isn’t a viable solution at the moment, making a new map and creating more capture points is probably next best bet.

Upgrading the hardware isn’t really the answer. Thier servers handle it just fine, it’s the clients computers that can’t.

I’ve never had my fps drop below 10. I’ve talked to people in the exact same fight have their fps drop down to 1.

When you load into a map, you don’t load the entire map. This is why, when you enter into a map that has a massive zerg war going on, you don’t automatically bog down even when facing the direction the zerg battle is at.

Only when you get within a certain range do you begin to lag and this is because only at a certain distance is the zergfest finally loaded on your end.

The tricks they were using before with culling and now particle effects culling is to reduce the amount of information being processed client side.

What I think they should do is to kind of create a local overflow. Think of it like culling on steriods. Instead of both ally and enemy players not rendering, after the zerg gets to a certain size, a local overflow occurs and players from all three sides in the immediate area would enter the overflow.

As seen by the client side, it would appear to be culling, but unlike culling, it’s more than just a lack of rendering.

I didn’t really read anything in your post past your statement that it is a client issue. Did you even read the red post before posting? Devon literally states that Server CPU problems are the cause of the issue.

Skill lag is a server issue and that has been stated by the devs. It isn’t a client side fps issue.

Deamhan.9538:

I’ve never had my fps drop below 10. I’ve talked to people in the exact same fight have their fps drop down to 1.

When you load into a map, you don’t load the entire map. This is why, when you enter into a map that has a massive zerg war going on, you don’t automatically bog down even when facing the direction the zerg battle is at.

That has even less to do with skill lag than making a 5th map. Stay on topic? You can have 3s of skill lag at 100+fps.

So please do tell..

How is it when, after waiting in queue, do I get in and begin to stack bloodlust, and even though there is a massive ZvZ going on, I don’t experience any lag at all where I’m at?

Am I in a different server than the zerg, despite being on the same map?

Why is it that this lag only happens when I get close enough to the zerg for it to get loaded at which point the computer’s responsiveness bogs down in general? Not only is there a drop in FPS and not only is there a lag in skill use, but even alt-tabbing to desktop is delayed a bit.

Deamhan.9538:

So please do tell..

How is it when, after waiting in queue, do I get in and begin to stack bloodlust, and even though there is a massive ZvZ going on, I don’t experience any lag at all where I’m at?

Am I in a different server than the zerg, despite being on the same map?

Why is it that this lag only happens when I get close enough to the zerg for it to get loaded at which point the computer’s responsiveness bogs down in general? Not only is there a drop in FPS and not only is there a lag in skill use, but even alt-tabbing to desktop is delayed a bit.

This is speculation, but it’s speculation based on my experience working for a web hosting company with major data centers.

I see two issues. The first as Devon pointed out are CPU spikes caused by having to calculate hundreds of skills dropping on hundreds of players at the same time. In a game like GW2 that has free targeting of skills and is very generous with AoEs, you’re going to get way more of these spikes than a typical tab-target 1:1 target MMO

The other side of that is your CPU spiking from trying to find the best way to present that data to you. And no, this isn’t strictly drawing the graphics. It’s knowing what to draw and where that slows things down. Once that’s figured out, graphics are rendered. That’s why super duper GPU system still get stutter and lag.

Somebody mentioned that SM is worse than Hills or Bay because the latter are multiple floors. The reason for this is that while there is still a high concentration of players, there are less effects and skills that need to be calculated on the whole because they are separated.

ANET can either optimize their hardware to eliminate server-side choke points, which will speed things up a bit, but client machines will still struggle. The other option is to optimize their net code to make it more efficient for the client to interpret. They should probably work toward both.

I wonder if they’ll do something with the underwater area of the map? You could fit a whole tunnel network down there…

Deamhan.9538:

So please do tell..

How is it when, after waiting in queue, do I get in and begin to stack bloodlust, and even though there is a massive ZvZ going on, I don’t experience any lag at all where I’m at?

Am I in a different server than the zerg, despite being on the same map?

Why is it that this lag only happens when I get close enough to the zerg for it to get loaded at which point the computer’s responsiveness bogs down in general? Not only is there a drop in FPS and not only is there a lag in skill use, but even alt-tabbing to desktop is delayed a bit.

I don’t care about your personal fps issue. What I care about is the big issue that effects more people than you and that is skill lag. That issue is server side

Basically, I don’t want to talk about whatever conspiracy theory you have going on. All of my posts are in regard to what has been announced by Anet.

So, yeh again, it is a hardware issue that is causing stuff to get pegged out when there is a ton of people doing stuff rapidly in the same place at the same time. I think that a new map and adding more capture points is a starting point toward addressing that issue.

It won’t help T1 and T2 servers that much, but it will help some on T3 and below I think.

The only conspiracy here is yours Timi, especially since after looking up “skill Lag” youtube videos for GW2, they occur during zerg on zerg engagements.

What’s happening is what Pseudo mentions…

The other side of that is your CPU spiking from trying to find the best way to present that data to you. And no, this isn’t strictly drawing the graphics. It’s knowing what to draw and where that slows things down. Once that’s figured out, graphics are rendered. That’s why super duper GPU system still get stutter and lag.

If the spike was server side, all areas of the game that rely on that server would suffer from it. I’m simply not seeing that at all.

This was actually an issue in EVE. It uses a single shard structure where each server box (node) is responsible for what happens in multiple systems. Or in other words, the number of star systems is divided amongst the servers.

A large scale battle in one solar system would cause major lag in a completely different system.

Their solution was a form of time dilation.

You can read more on that here…

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Time_Dilation

Deamhan.9538:

The only conspiracy here is yours Timi, especially since after looking up “skill Lag” youtube videos for GW2, they occur during zerg on zerg engagements.
[…]

Deamhan, posts with a red tag are developer posts. You might be unaware of this, but Devon is the lead of the WvW team at ArenaNet. A few posts above yours, he confirmed that it’s a server side issue, specifically due to server CPU computation issues, as well as in countless other threads.
Skill lag is also an entirely separate matter from framerate.

Yours is a futile position.

Also thanks for chiming in Devon.

is it possible to say… join up a few more server/mainframes to solve the issue? :p

btw, anet i think attempted to improve the client side related lag with loading lesser models or lower quality stuff.

i think there are 3 types of lags in total we commonly know :/

client side lags, server side lags, and ISP related connection issues/lag.

each are individual and separate from each other.

if im wrong dont shoot at me xD

client side lag is to do with our computer not being able to keep up with the “translation”

server side means the service we are connecting to, is having issues, either connections, hardware failure, or software failures. can even happen because of power shortage etc.

isp connection issues and lags, are more your cable connection and provider, example say if an earthquake hits, and a fibre cable breaks, your data have to be routed to the other end of the world to reach hence causing lags. or, they are doing maintenance/screwed up something and left without checking. more to do with routing issues.

DevonCarver.5370:

Swamurabi.7890:

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

Strictly speaking the lag isn’t due to population per se, it is due to concentrated groups of players using skills on each other. The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does. So if you get enough people fighting against one another, or even fighting with one another, you start to see server CPU problems.

Maybe if you didn’t allow zerging to be beneficial in wvw we wouldn’t have this problem.

There is alot of ways to fix this, but the wvw staff doesen’t even seem to try.

DevonCarver.5370:

Swamurabi.7890:

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

Strictly speaking the lag isn’t due to population per se, it is due to concentrated groups of players using skills on each other. The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does. So if you get enough people fighting against one another, or even fighting with one another, you start to see server CPU problems.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Time_Dilation

Timelord.8190:

DevonCarver.5370:

Swamurabi.7890:

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

Strictly speaking the lag isn’t due to population per se, it is due to concentrated groups of players using skills on each other. The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does. So if you get enough people fighting against one another, or even fighting with one another, you start to see server CPU problems.

Maybe if you didn’t allow zerging to be beneficial in wvw we wouldn’t have this problem.

There is alot of ways to fix this, but the wvw staff doesen’t even seem to try.

Your reply makes no sense. You need to understand that a lot of us like large scale combat. If you do not, try roaming or PvP.

style.6173:

Timelord.8190:

DevonCarver.5370:

Swamurabi.7890:

Are there different causes for lag server side? Can there be lag derived from map population (WvW or PvE) as well as lag from server population?

Strictly speaking the lag isn’t due to population per se, it is due to concentrated groups of players using skills on each other. The server calculates things every time a skill fires off and the more people it hits the more calculations it does. So if you get enough people fighting against one another, or even fighting with one another, you start to see server CPU problems.

Maybe if you didn’t allow zerging to be beneficial in wvw we wouldn’t have this problem.

There is alot of ways to fix this, but the wvw staff doesen’t even seem to try.

Your reply makes no sense. You need to understand that a lot of us like large scale combat. If you do not, try roaming or PvP.

It makes perfect sense. This game does not support true large scale combat due to the lag, AOE cap, and lose alot of what could have been tactical positioning. Because everything people have to do is being in a stack and spam 1. This is utterly boring. There is no skill involved in this. But maybe you like this because you like easy mode.

Jamais vu.5284:

Deamhan.9538:

The only conspiracy here is yours Timi, especially since after looking up “skill Lag” youtube videos for GW2, they occur during zerg on zerg engagements.
[…]

Deamhan, posts with a red tag are developer posts. You might be unaware of this, but Devon is the lead of the WvW team at ArenaNet. A few posts above yours, he confirmed that it’s a server side issue, specifically due to server CPU computation issues, as well as in countless other threads.
Skill lag is also an entirely separate matter from framerate.

Yours is a futile position.

Also thanks for chiming in Devon.

“If the spike was server side, all areas of the game that rely on that server would suffer from it. I’m simply not seeing that at all”

Oh and sorry but the state of the game and the direction it’s headed leaves me with little to no faith in the capabilities of the Devs.

Devon is working on a new map called, “Treasure Island”.
Did he not tell you about this? Oh dear. Oh dear indeed. Allow me to assist.

Its a remote tropical island located somewhere in the mists (image attached).
When you die (finished/staked) in the Battlegrounds you are transported there with only a small amount of provisions.
From there you must gain access to the World Warp to return back into the fray. But there is a twist..

..Enemies from all servers are there. There are no tiers here my little hobbit like friends, and nor do you have your own weapons.. but TWIGS!
Yes yes. Fight my pretties.
Fight amoungst yourselves while me and precious make our escape ha..hA..GHAH HUAHUAHUAHUA!
Oh no wait this was a dream.

Easy fix- stop staff 1 from hitting multiple targets, problem solved.

Or transfer off the top 3 or 6 servers. Skill lag fixed.

This is a technical limitation with any mmo that includes large scale battles though.

After watching the Pax Stream yesterday i have no hope that anything will be done in a reasonable amount of time. Devon made his announcement and for the rest of the panel he just sat there. Not a single kitten question came from the audience regarding wvw and only one question about spvp. Almost all questions where about living world / rp / lore, so that does say anything about the interest of the people and therefore the focus of the development of this game.

Oroibahazopi.9074:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Time_Dilation

It’s slows down the server time so that the server and people’s clients have more time to do the calculations. It means that everyone’s inputs will be registered correctly and you don’t have the “am I alive?” moments because you’ve been frozen out.

It’s less of a lag than putting things into slowmo.

Commands on the server are currently added to a queue and processed in order. If the load is more than the server can process, this queue grows at an alarming rate and the server is unable to catch up. Under time dilation, actions in the game such as firing weapons or moving would be slowed down to ensure the queue remains short and so the server stays under its maximum load. Instead of fights becoming laggy and unplayable, the entire battle would go into slow motion and remain responsive. It’s no silver bullet with which to kill the lag monster, but time dilation could make massive battles a lot more playable.

Admittedly I don’t know how the gw2 server handles the player inputs

Guys they can’t time dilate because of the point tick… you could just lock the enemy zerg in place by throwing players at them and slowing them waaaaaaaay down while you keep ticking in points at regular time.

DevonCarver.5370:

Oroibahazopi.9074:

It’s slows down the server time so that the server and people’s clients have more time to do the calculations. It means that everyone’s inputs will be registered correctly and you don’t have the “am I alive?” moments because you’ve been frozen out.

It’s less of a lag than putting things into slowmo.

GW2 is not a deterministic serious of events. If I cast lava font you are warned and able to move out of it. If we slowed things down to the sense of being queued up it would quickly gum up what GW2 combat is.

lol
“They’re using earthshaker!”
“It’ll be ok as long as we get stability on in the next 20 seconds.”

Well I’d rather have it being playable and slowed down than lagged out and not having any skills work.

Only thing that changes is you have more time to react, it doesn’t “gum” it up. Right now you can’t react at all in large fights because you can’t activate skills I know which I prefer. Also more reaction time only really nerfs the mindless aoe spam, direct instantaneous attacks will be just as dangerous.

How does slowing the server clock introduce more problems? Things just run more slowly. Instead of doing x calculations per second it does x/d < max load calculations per second.

I guess you’d need to apply it to the entire map because afaik the maps aren’t subdivided into instances.

With all due respect, Devon, I believe time dilation “can” be made to work with the GW2 combat system – I seriously doubt there’s no server-side time ticks at all (even if it’s just 10ms or 1ms), that’s just not how programming (in a simulation) works. The question is, how small are those ticks, and how would you present the slowdown of time to the client. As well as what happens with the points acquired. … And the points thing is really a big issue, because I can see no way this won’t get abused. :-/

No, DO make more maps. More maps and lower the map cap.

With all due respect, Devon, I believe time dilation “can” be made to work with the GW2 combat system – I seriously doubt there’s no server-side time ticks at all (even if it’s just 10ms or 1ms), that’s just not how programming (in a simulation) works. The question is, how small are those ticks, and how would you present the slowdown of time to the client. As well as what happens with the points acquired. … And the points thing is really a big issue, because I can see no way this won’t get abused. :-/

it’s not a question of tech, it’s a question of sense and gameplay

time dilation doesn’t matter much to gameplay in EVE’s 1Hz deterministic system. but in GW2, noone would land any big hits because you would have all the time in the world to dodge.

it would also add a lot of down time and frustration. imagine someone finishing you off at 1/3 speed, it’s like the game itself is teabagging you