Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen suggestions of all sorts dealing with the carry that is downed state, from fancy population calculations to simply removing it altogether. I think it should be trimmed but not completely removed. In every game I’ve played the rampant ganking is such a turnoff. But in Guild Wars 2 the downed system is at such an extreme it carries to the point it is such a turnoff aswell.

I think downed state should have a duration hard cap of,

5 seconds (extreme)
or
7 seconds (ideal)
or
10 seconds (generous)

After X-seconds of the player not rallying they should just be defeated.
It would leave time for resurrecting and also keep a purpose in stomping by reducing the time a player has to rally.

Just a vid showing a small sample of what occurs during small scale in wvw that is just sickening. Both demonstrating why downed state exists (hammer rev op roaming…) and also why it should be trimmed (players free-casting pewpew/cc from downed state for way too long).

https://youtu.be/bL3gM8ht8fo

I’m sure there are horror stories of players dying 3v1 to a player blasting them with damage aswell as sadface stories of players going 1v3 just to die to downed state players that should have been removed from the fight after 5-10seconds rather than 30seconds +. But the question comes to me as, who should ultimately be winning these scenario? The outnumbered guy or the people who died mashing buttons?

I think once you’re dead, you’re dead.

Too many groups are using the res mechanic to the extreme because they simply have more players but don’t have the skill losing to a smaller group, therefore using it as a crutch.

No rallying at all IMO.

RodOfDeath.5247:

I think once you’re dead, you’re dead.

Too many groups are using the res mechanic to the extreme because they simply have more players but don’t have the skill losing to a smaller group, therefore using it as a crutch.

No rallying at all IMO.

Want to bet that just as many bad situations are turned due to ressing mechanic?

I had a situation yesterday when I got ganked (thief-stun-bomb) in seconds by 3 gank built people, but my guildies got me up and we proceeded to have quite a good fight despite them getting reinforcements. We killed several of them but also rallied several times due to a very close fight, we eventually got killed (it was at their north camp). With no resing or rallying the fight would have been a boring one as their stealth attack would have ended the fight before it even began.

Fact is, the downed state is an integral part of the GW2 combat mechanics. Remove that and it isnt GW2 anymore. I still want to play GW2, thus I cant agree with removing it. Its one of those you got to take the good with the bad deals.

Call it a crutch if you want. If its working against me due to being outnumbered, I call it hardmode. And thats the best kind of situation to win at.

While I find downed state an intresting game mechanic and can make fights last a little longer, I think its unbalanced like underwater combat and has way to much of an impact on the end result of small scale battles (worse players winning fights due to the superior ressing/stomping capabilities of their builds).

Just make it so a player can only get the downed state once every 5 min. If they rally or are rezzed they have a 5 min debuff where they die instead of going down again.

santenal.1054:

(worse players winning fights due to the superior ressing/stomping capabilities of their builds).

Who says its the worse player?

Are you saying he was supposed to bring a brainless damage build? Small scale WvW group fights is tactics.

I’m guessing the most ironic part of this argument will probably be glass cannon gank thieves complaining the most that they cant pressure downed, when they are the only ones with an insta-stomp…

Or the fact I have heard so many complain about smallscale and stomping yet when I say “well you didnt bring a scrapper” they seem confused, as if they’ve only played their class.

So yes. You bring the proper tools. Thats build diversity. Thats tactics. Thats WvW. Whether those tools are used against you or you use them against the enemy is part of playing the game.

Dawdler.8521:

santenal.1054:

(worse players winning fights due to the superior ressing/stomping capabilities of their builds).

Who says its the worse player?

Its mostly the over the top ressing capabilities of some builds (eg. function gyro ) that carry worse fighters, enabling them to defeat superior fighters. They can just keep ressing eachother untill the superior fighters are worn down and go into downed state themselves. Its a cheesy way to win and I would like to see something done about it. Too often downed state has too much of an impact on the endresult of a fight in a trollish way.

There are alot of problems that downed state enables that im not adressing atm but nerfing over the top ress capabilities would solve at least one of them. Strong stomping capabilities dont bother me much, it’s a good thing that players who went into downed state most likely end up dying.

santenal.1054:

There are alot of problems that downed state enables that im not adressing atm but nerfing over the top ress capabilities would solve at least one of them. Strong stomping capabilities dont bother me much, it’s a good thing that players who went into downed state most likely end up dying.

A large one is that downed players don’t stop recharging skills and traits. If for whatever reason you just cannot spike them but only cleave, and they get rezed after ~10-15sec, you are in a doubly bad spot.

With a 7sec rally or die cap it wouldn’t be so bad.

Justine.6351:

santenal.1054:

There are alot of problems that downed state enables that im not adressing atm but nerfing over the top ress capabilities would solve at least one of them. Strong stomping capabilities dont bother me much, it’s a good thing that players who went into downed state most likely end up dying.

A large one is that downed players don’t stop recharging skills and traits. If for whatever reason you just cannot spike them but only cleave, and they get rezed after ~10-15sec, you are in a doubly bad spot.

With a 7sec rally or die cap it wouldn’t be so bad.

I’m fine with downed players having their skills recharge, but I think it would be interesting if they received a 5-10 sec debuff upon being rezzed where all of their damange and healing was cut in half. That way they don’t come back at full strength, and its more of a risk for their teammates to rez them.

What if going into downed state instant stomps every already downed body in a 300 range radius? How would that play out? Would that be something desirable?

edit: Without the possibility of you rallying of of that particular stomp ofc. When you take lethal damage the already downed bodies get instant stomped followed by you going into downed state.

santenal.1054:

What if going into downed state instant stomps every already downed body in a 300 range radius? How would that play out? Would that be something desirable?

It’s not hard to survive 7 seconds in downed state. So if an enemy drops before you do there is a high chance you would rally off them anyhow.

1]Less health when in downed state.
2]No more 4x downed state but only once ( in an 1min time frame ),go down the next time and you die.
3]No more rallying

Another idea is to add an insta stomp effect across all classes on one of their elite’s.

With the crazy damage and power creep HoT brought I could in no way say that downstate should be removed especially as in the example above it would promote stealth ganking far more. This is not something we should be encouraging for a dynamic and enjoyable fighting experience in any way shape or form.

Maybe they should bring downed penalty into WvW where if you keep going down multiple times in a short time space you get less and less health till you will just die.

Caedmon.6798:

Less health when in downed state.
No more 4x downed state but only once ( in an 1min time frame ),go down the next time and you die.
No more rallying

Ya the 3x HP in downed state is kind of carry. Partially it’s to prevent people who got one shot from being one shot while downed and to encourage spiking. But it ends up being “impossible” to effectively cleave a downed person that is getting rezzed because they are healed at 15%/second. If it’s a scenario where spiking is just impossible then it is indeed full carry for the people who have more players.

Broken record here, but a 7sec rally or die timer would make cleaving in this scenario at least slow down the rez healing enough for the timer to finish the downed player.

nothing wrong with that hammer dmg either huh?

stop aa and use ur skills like field of mists or facet of light to stomp. problem solved.

shinta.8906:

nothing wrong with that hammer dmg either huh?

stop aa and use ur skills like field of mists or facet of light to stomp. problem solved.

right…

cause its more skilled to win a 3v1 by pressing 1 and 2 from downed state for 10-20-30 seconds…

So I did the math and added up the total downed state duration (I included vengeance up until me getting spiked) for the 3 enemy players,

in 1min:30sec 3 players had 94sec of downed state,
more accurately 3 players with a total of 220sec (3min:40sec) combat time, from each individuals engagement start time to me being spiked, spent a total of 94sec in downed state.

In total the 3 players spent an accumulated 42.7% of their summed fight time in downed state winning a 3v1 fight.

If that doesn’t define carry I don’t know what does.

santenal.1054:

Its mostly the over the top ressing capabilities of some builds (eg. function gyro ) that carry worse fighters, enabling them to defeat superior fighters. They can just keep ressing eachother untill the superior fighters are worn down and go into downed state themselves. Its a cheesy way to win and I would like to see something done about it. Too often downed state has too much of an impact on the endresult of a fight in a trollish way.

Yeah except your “worse fighters” obviously brought the better team and tools to win that fight. You’re talking basic dueling mentality on an individual player basis. That’s not WvW. And it’s not even true to real life either. That’s like saying “well we brought 5 Navy Seal snipers to this fight and then these scrubs came with 3 tanks and an attack helicopter, WTF how did they win we we had the better fighters!!!”

Anyway I decided to upload that video where I got ganked lol (the second time they did exactly same later that evening and was much more successfull): https://youtu.be/Y-PpjJo2MeE

Without downstate that fight would have been kitten. Well except for the 4v3 enemies as they would have instantly clicked the I win button (ie stun and kill the first one they focused from stealth). Their mistake not to stomp.

Once again… You get the good with the bad. Rally is an equal opportunity kitten. The guard rally was a bonus, lol.

Justine.6351:

But it ends up being “impossible” to effectively cleave a downed person that is getting rezzed because they are healed at 15%/second. If it’s a scenario where spiking is just impossible then it is indeed full carry for the people who have more players.

Just having more players is full carry, period. Besides your point is funny, you cleave downed to damage the living. Whether that downed gets up or not is pretty irrelevant when you just turned their group into squishies that has no hp left. If it’s a scenario where spiking is impossible then someone is making it impossible. That’s tactics.

Dawdler.8521:

Justine.6351:

But it ends up being “impossible” to effectively cleave a downed person that is getting rezzed because they are healed at 15%/second. If it’s a scenario where spiking is just impossible then it is indeed full carry for the people who have more players.

Just having more players is full carry, period. Besides your point is funny, you cleave downed to damage the living. Whether that downed gets up or not is pretty irrelevant when you just turned their group into squishies that has no hp left. If it’s a scenario where spiking is impossible then someone is making it impossible. That’s tactics.

Well I was not really arguing that there shouldn’t be an opportunity to rally a downed player. More that downed players get super HP buff that coupled with 15% hp/sec rezing keeps them in the fight far longer than they should be. If the player does get rallied any cleave damage you put down is erased on that downed player as they are returned with a set amount of %hp. Downed state almost plays like a death shroud in effect.

Justine.6351:

Well I was not really arguing that there shouldn’t be an opportunity to rally a downed player. More that downed players get super HP buff that coupled with 15% hp/sec rezing keeps them in the fight far longer than they should be. If the player does get rallied any cleave damage you put down is erased on that downed player as they are returned with a set amount of %hp. Downed state almost plays like a death shroud in effect.

Well when you put it like that, I’m all for removing the death shroud.

Justine.6351:

15% hp/sec rezing

What? No mercy runes? noobs!

Dawdler.8521:

Justine.6351:

Well I was not really arguing that there shouldn’t be an opportunity to rally a downed player. More that downed players get super HP buff that coupled with 15% hp/sec rezing keeps them in the fight far longer than they should be. If the player does get rallied any cleave damage you put down is erased on that downed player as they are returned with a set amount of %hp. Downed state almost plays like a death shroud in effect.

Well when you put it like that, I’m all for removing the death shroud.

?

I guess either I’m not explaining it very well or you are playing devils advocate but it comes down to the ratio of Xv2X or greater where downed state is highly favorable to the mass but hit or miss to the outnumbered. Downed state is balanced atm when X = ~5. If X is higher or lower than that it moves into favor of the larger group. If the ratio itself is greater than that it becomes way out of whack. Why should players losing fights that they outnumber suddenly have access to an infinite duration 3x hp that can be healed for 15%/sec base? Toss a 7sec duration on downed state and suddenly it’s balanced for the outnumbered aswell as still maintaining the possibility to both rally an ally and not get 1 shot ganked.

WvW needs more support for outnumbered fighting (or more accurately less support for outnumbering) so we can break out of this stupid number matching contest.

Give me a res signet and an extra slot to put it in (10 minute cool down) and you can happily remove downed state from the game.

Stealth gank thiefs should be happy, now all they need to do is keep ganking and in a couple of minutes they will win the fight as the enemy will run out of res signets whilst not being able to target the thiefs or down them.

Will scale up nicely- if you are defeating greater numbers then it might take you a little longer but your superior skills should win out.

In the meantime, remove all stealth finishing.

Baldrick.8967:

Give me a res signet and an extra slot to put it in (10 minute cool down) and you can happily remove downed state from the game.

Stealth gank thiefs should be happy, now all they need to do is keep ganking and in a couple of minutes they will win the fight as the enemy will run out of res signets whilst not being able to target the thiefs or down them.

Will scale up nicely- if you are defeating greater numbers then it might take you a little longer but your superior skills should win out.

In the meantime, remove all stealth finishing.

This thread is NOT about removing downed state.

Dawdler.8521:

Anyway I decided to upload that video where I got ganked lol (the second time they did exactly same later that evening and was much more successfull): https://youtu.be/Y-PpjJo2MeE

All this vid shows is someone not electing to use their skills because they are waiting for that perfect moment to use that Bypass Coating(stun break)/Defense Field/Bulwark Gyro. You made a judgement call on electing to save these skills for later use. That proved to be in error but the down state may well have been avoided.

Im a big fan of the fire everything play style when im getting ganked, dont go down theorising about opportune moments for skill use.

I find downed state fine, just another thing to play around and adds more diversity in comps, eg scrapper is god awful otherwise, but brings res control so it ends up being useful.

Justine.6351:

Baldrick.8967:

Give me a res signet and an extra slot to put it in (10 minute cool down) and you can happily remove downed state from the game.

Stealth gank thiefs should be happy, now all they need to do is keep ganking and in a couple of minutes they will win the fight as the enemy will run out of res signets whilst not being able to target the thiefs or down them.

Will scale up nicely- if you are defeating greater numbers then it might take you a little longer but your superior skills should win out.

In the meantime, remove all stealth finishing.

This thread is NOT about removing downed state.

You stated your preference for changes to downed state. I’ve stated mine, as I think yours isn’t practical and does nothing to improve gameplay.

In fact, changing the duration would only help gankers, stealth users and other low lifes, as it would promote 3-5 thief stealth teams instantly downing players from stealth without having any sort of counter, making the game even less enjoyable.

Baldrick.8967:

Justine.6351:

Baldrick.8967:

Give me a res signet and an extra slot to put it in (10 minute cool down) and you can happily remove downed state from the game.

Stealth gank thiefs should be happy, now all they need to do is keep ganking and in a couple of minutes they will win the fight as the enemy will run out of res signets whilst not being able to target the thiefs or down them.

Will scale up nicely- if you are defeating greater numbers then it might take you a little longer but your superior skills should win out.

In the meantime, remove all stealth finishing.

This thread is NOT about removing downed state.

You stated your preference for changes to downed state. I’ve stated mine, as I think yours isn’t practical and does nothing to improve gameplay.

In fact, changing the duration would only help gankers, stealth users and other low lifes, as it would promote 3-5 thief stealth teams instantly downing players from stealth without having any sort of counter, making the game even less enjoyable.

?
What are you even talking about? I didn’t say remove downed state. 3-5 stealth gankers can already cleave a single person to death in a couple seconds meerly because nobody sees them before it is too late.

I didn’t say you said remove downed state. I said remove downed state, rather than tinker with it’s duration which just favours spike groups and would lead to even more cheese.

maybe make downed state rally from dealing a greater amount of damage to a single player. right now its easy to get tags in group battles and rely on them to rally you.

Tweak some skills maybe, but do not remove down state. It differentiates GW2 from a lot of games. I don’t think we want banners reading fully downed players, which is what would need to happen.

And yes Justine, I get you don’t want it removed, but too many have taken the opportunity to complain about it.

Don’t gripe because a party has specced for down state in sacrifice of something else. Have your group do the same thing.

Wvw is not designed to be balanced. Duel and attack roamers at your own risk. It is made to support each other. If you can’t get back to your group, then wait.

Personally I’d love that have it removed. But tbh that is never gonna happen. I’d be content with any rather big nerfs to it.

The 5-7 seconds of having to keep them down and then an auto-stomp is a rather novel and imo really good idea.

Having a 1 minute cooldown is also a good idea as there are many fights including the one shown where the downstate truly is carrying his enemies.

Another good solution would be to nerf/remove Mercy runes and some of the better ressing traits (guardian/ranger being the worst offenders).

About whether hammer or any other burst build is skilled or not is irrelevant to this discussion, perhaps hammer for Rev and thief burst should be nerfed (imo burst isn’t a very skilled playstyle). But the downstate problems are even worse for non-bursty grindier builds as the 15%/sec base healing (upto like 30% with traits and runes) is too much for them to be able to get down.

This a troll post… right? RIGHT?

Some downed skills are super annoying like the mist from the elementalist, that skill shouldn’t allow the players go thru doors or at least have longer activation time.

Other than that the only thing i see in the video is a lolhammer rev being carried by the class that is absolutely incapable of stomping downed players.

The skills and downed duration are fine. Some teaks maybe needed but if you are incapable of finishing a downed player you don’t deserve the win. As simple as that.

anduriell.6280:

This a troll post… right? RIGHT?

Some downed skills are super annoying like the mist from the elementalist, that skill shouldn’t allow the players go thru doors or at least have longer activation time.

Other than that the only thing i see in the video is a lolhammer rev being carried by the class that is absolutely incapable of stomping downed players.

The skills and downed duration are fine. Some teaks maybe needed but if you are incapable of finishing a downed player you don’t deserve the win. As simple as that.

A bunker druid calling a glass hammer rev carried is just sad.