Guild Wars 2

It is my personal view, that downed state in WvW hurts more than it helps. I believe that it’s the contributing factor as to why zergs are so prevalent. Can’t take an objective? Grab enough people and you can res your way through any resistance. It’s silly. It’s also why you see so many glassy builds in WvW. It’s basically a second chance if you’re in a zerg. You die and you quickly get resed, why spec for anything but glass cannon?

So what do other people think? Is downed state good for WvW or not? This is a discussion thread, so let’s keep it civil and friendly.

so you had a good fight one of you get downed and here starts the real challenge for anyone not in a “tankish build” or part of a huge overwhelming zerg, especially if its a “group fight” with equelly skilled players..
trying to finish the downed player of -.-

seriously finishing of a downed player i find to be much harder then actually downing the player in a “fair” fight. (not harder in the sense that i need to be more skilled at it or rl skills matter at all, contrary harder in the sense of "some one just tied a big rock to both your legs and arms and asked you to walk a mile)…

first of you got to be “melee” range to even do it.
i/he got 1 garenteed 100% stop on your finishing skill, then he got the added bonus if any one die that he touched he gets instantly up again, and if its a group combat or its a fight where 1 is build in range or nuker mode there is a HUGE advantage already by the downing system to the one in a tanky mode….

its simply just an extremely bad design which adds nothing good to pvp, it rewards the losing party of a fight WAY! too much…

i think pvp, Especially wvwvw pvp would be MUCH better and more enjoyable from all sides if the downing system was completely removed.
if i or you lose a fight we should not be downed then to have another 10seconds of fighting and the ability to resurrect crazily fast, no we should be dead….

the downing system rewards one type of builds to the extreme, it rewards the losing part of a fight extremely. it directly hard punishe(almost counter) builds which are relying on “nukability or movability, oppose to pure buffer tank/heal”.
besides these it promotes zerging over skilled group play due the downed system…
i do not see how it adds anything good to the game.

i have hated the downing system for pvp use ever since i heard about it the very first time, ofcouse back then i didnt expect any dev on the planet to be stupid enough to set something like this into a pvp enviroment..

have seen this issue being pulled up again and again but it doesnt seem to sink through to anet. so i wanted to pull it up again in a hope that at some point given enough support the down system could be permanently removed from pvp.

It is not res’ing from downed that the problem is. It is res’ing from death and not having to waypoint where the real issue is imo.

yeah just make a zerg out of glass canons lol

1 glassy of your zerg dies = 10 tanks of the enemy zerg stay again foreveeeeer

Most everyone in a zerg is spec’ed glass cannon. This has been my experience. I tend to avoid zergs, but they often find me. You’ll kill a guy and he’ll be right back up again, but they go down so easily it’s insane. You’d never spec that way if you knew a run back was waiting for you.

I would be perfectly ok with eliminating rez from death, or making it so it can only be done out of combat. This would make survival and strategy much more important. I would also put a cooldown on waypointing after death so that it gets longer each time. However, this might actually help the zerg.

I agree wholeheartedly.

In fact I find the downed-state/resurrection system to be by far the most frustrating game-mechanic in this game. It has caused me so much annoyance and ruins the WvW dynamics in a fundamental fashion.

But the downed-state per day isn’t the biggest offender. It contributes, yes, but the speed at which fellow players can revive you is the real issue. It takes less time for an allied player to revive a downed player than it takes for your standard finisher to execute. This, coupled with the fact that only very few abilities can actually interrupt the revive process and it makes many 2v1s virtually impossible to win.

But the biggest offence is without a doubt that even defeated players can be resurrected quickly within a Zerg. In fact outside of a complete wipe a Zerg can keep resurrecting players indefinitely, making them virtually indestructible. Yes, there are exceptions but those are few and far between.

Just think of how many realistic options a 10 defenders have at defeating a 25 man Zerg attacking their keep. With players constantly resurrecting each other the best they can hope for is to buy time. There’s no feasible way to wipe a larger Zerg as long as people can constantly resurrect each other. You can’t apply Guerrilla tactics or wear them down…because constant rezzes undermine any such efforts.

This is by far the biggest issue I have with the game and would really like to see addressed asap.

Solutions:
Reduce speed at which allies can revive downed players (by 30% or more).
Limit resurrections to “out of combat” only.

It is annoying but I don’t want it eliminated. If they made it so there is a chance to either get “downed” or directly killed.

downed state is great, it adds sooo much to a fight. we push and push winning then if we start falling back maybe but oh wait too soon, and they are back up attacking. it creates pushes and counter pushes

glass cannons in WvW are an annoyance when they are on your own side but also great for bag farming and i thank all other servers for letting us farm you

Ressing glasscannons are soo annoying these newbs are a reason most zergs fail. when ever one goes down the rest has to rez them. BUT why make everyone else suffer just because some PvE newbs dont know how much berserker gear sucks in WvW..

Keep it as it is. its all good really. but might be good both ways.

I should say tho, more skilled players who are better geared can kill any big zerg of glasscannons easily, they fall faster then one can res them afterall

So really thank all glasscannons for making the fights soo kitten easy, but maybe thats just because we are outnumbered so often that after we all get lots of kills there is still more of you left, otherwise i might not be as happy with it :P

One good solution to keep this behaviour from happening and giving a chance of epic defenses 10v30 at the walls, is giving downed player a harsh downed penalty, as, "every time you’re downed, every player gets a cumulative 10% bonus to damage against you, until you waypoint (or until you exit from WvW, or until you repair, etc.).

This will keep people from resurrecting over and over and over, when you know that a good bow hit will one-shot you unless you retreat from the fight. That will encourage staying alive both in defense and in offense, to avoid ground-tanking over and over.

I am going to agree and re-state the obvious. With respect to dub-v-dub (I will not speak for our hardcore sPvP comrades,) the downed state and the ability to perma-rez spiked allies gives overwhelming advantage in just running with pure numbers.

Moving in a tight 5-man team with defined roles and coordination is being overtly penalized. Many times in my own experience (and in witnessing others in combat) a skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number or at the least bring that number down to more manageable odds (through skill, build, organization terrain,etc.) Herein lies the issue, the longer the fight continues the opponent with an advantage in numbers just rezzes the spiked/downed allies in the back field creating a constant trickle of opponents and an unending re-enforcement train. The result, the smaller team (which in some instances could have beaten the opponent with double or triple numbers) is overrun, pushed out or wiped. Dee Jay makes an excellent point,

“Just think of how many realistic options a 10 defenders have at defeating a 25 man Zerg attacking their keep. With players constantly resurrecting each other the best they can hope for is to buy time. There’s no feasible way to wipe a larger Zerg as long as people can constantly resurrect each other. You can’t apply Guerrilla tactics or wear them down…because constant rezzes undermine any such efforts.”

My personal application is open field battle and camp capture but observing dub-v-dub in the macro the problem is broad with many applications.

Considerations:
- Eliminate the downed state in DubvDub
- Leave the downed state and make spiked players waypoint
- Very harsh penalties to allies rezzed from double-down state (penalties on a timer).
My personal opinion:
1- Increase the time required to rez a downed player giving the opponent a realistic time for spike.
2-Spiked players can only be rezzed by players not in combat. If a player begins rezzing an ally and is brought into combat he can not continue to rez the ally until out of combat again.

Just my two cents.

As a player in T1 pairing, zergs rule, and there are little to no tools to really break one up. Some may say that having more players is strategic, but the reality there is no strategy involved, whoever has greater mass will win most of the time.

To me the fact that breakout events are needed highlights some fundamental problems with the game. In T1, things have quickly devolved into zerg “merry-go-round” where there is really little fighting players and more fighting NPC’s. A small group sees larger numbers and knows there is little chance of stopping them, so they use the only strategy they can, which is leave and try to back cap. To some degree this can help balance the point spread, but it feeds into the “merry-go-round” cycle, and the people that actually do want to fight over objectives leave out of boredom… I am sure plenty hear remember “DoorHammer”.

Now why is this relevant to the conversation, well if in WvW if you forced players to respawn after being spiked, then you have added several layers of complexity and playstyle to the game. It would also add build diversity as glass cannons become much riskier (which they should be).

There would be more things for smaller groups and solo players to do in the form of intercepting reinforcements, making it necessary for groups to escort players out, or the zerg will need to send a recovery force if they keep losing more through attrition. It would add strategy, while taking away from raw strength in numbers, making player skill and strategy more important mass numbers. It would also help to put fighting back in, rather than play on the “merry-go-round”.

You talk about skilled 5-man team against unskilled 25-man zerg. Then the other guy rolla the stupid ball further and talks about 10-man heros squad defending against mindless 25-man zerg. Hello?

The numbers are even when all servers hit the queues. If your server does not have enough players to fill the battlefield then there is your issue.

You should be talking about 5 skilled 5-man teams collaborating against 25-man zerg – and being unsuccessful due the downed state. But that is not the case, is it?

Or 25 players defending keep with smart siege selection, smuggling in supplies, well-timed flanking attacks against a 25-man zerg. Then complain it is impossible due downed state. But that is not the case either, is it?

Korgov.7645:

You talk about skilled 5-man team against unskilled 25-man zerg. Then the other guy rolla the stupid ball further and talks about 10-man heros squad defending against mindless 25-man zerg. Hello?

The numbers are even when all servers hit the queues. If your server does not have enough players to fill the battlefield then there is your issue.

You should be talking about 5 skilled 5-man teams collaborating against 25-man zerg – and being unsuccessful due the downed state. But that is not the case, is it?

Or 25 players defending keep with smart siege selection, smuggling in supplies, well-timed flanking attacks against a 25-man zerg. Then complain it is impossible due downed state. But that is not the case either, is it?

Wow, if it was ever possible to miss the point people are making in a thread, you have managed to accomplish it in record time. And do me the favor of quoting one person in this thread who has stated a 5man team should be able to role a 25man zerg

talk about the stupid ball…..

I dont understand why some dont lik down state. I came from a game Star War Galaxic. Where when you got incap you couldnt do anything jut hoped for someone to heal you if you died they could rez ya . Yet that was a on long timer .

The only thing i see wrong with downstate is you ca drag them . You can knock them back yet you cant drag them to you.

There is nothing wrong with Downstate. If they are so easy to down then down them again and again by that time aoe will kill them.

KnattyDreads.1856:

Korgov.7645:

You talk about skilled 5-man team against unskilled 25-man zerg. Then the other guy rolla the stupid ball further and talks about 10-man heros squad defending against mindless 25-man zerg. Hello?

The numbers are even when all servers hit the queues. If your server does not have enough players to fill the battlefield then there is your issue.

You should be talking about 5 skilled 5-man teams collaborating against 25-man zerg – and being unsuccessful due the downed state. But that is not the case, is it?

Or 25 players defending keep with smart siege selection, smuggling in supplies, well-timed flanking attacks against a 25-man zerg. Then complain it is impossible due downed state. But that is not the case either, is it?

Wow, if it was ever possible to miss the point people are making in a thread, you have managed to accomplish it in record time. And do me the favor of quoting one person in this thread who has stated a 5man team should be able to role a 25man zerg

talk about the stupid ball…..

“and it makes many 2v1s virtually impossible to win.” – Dee jay
“Just think of how many realistic options a 10 defenders have at defeating a 25 man Zerg attacking their keep” – Dee Jay
“skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number " – KnattyDreads
“epic defenses 10v30 at the walls” – Fabsm

Ok, not 5vs25 but you get the picture. Everyone is putting forwards delusional scenarios to justify the downed state is to blame for their “skill” not being rewarded.

Aowys,

In general terms I like the downed state as well. It is very dynamic and adds strategy to combat. And with no intention of derailing the OP’s thread, the more I think about the downed state and talk about it here on the forums. I am leaning more towards the opinion that spiked players should have to waypoint. Or at an absolute minimum not allowing rez while in combat.

:/ not sure how experienced you guys are, being in IRON and desolation, we even with a full server are outnumbered because there is too many people running around doing who knows what, we often face bigger numbers which we cut through. BUT no matter

THE only problem we see is glasscannons getting downed over and over forcing us to waste time reviving them instead of the players worth the time.

Another thing is change the button for riving DEAD compared to reviving downed, since downed ok good we want to revive you, dead no takes too long during a fight but how are we supposed to know this in the middle of a fight?

Korgov.7645:

“and it makes many 2v1s virtually impossible to win.” – Dee jay
“Just think of how many realistic options a 10 defenders have at defeating a 25 man Zerg attacking their keep” – Dee Jay
“skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number " – KnattyDreads
“epic defenses 10v30 at the walls” – Fabsm

Ok, not 5vs25 but you get the picture. Everyone is putting forwards delusional scenarios to justify the downed state is to blame for their “skill” not being rewarded.

You still aren’t making any sense whatsoever?

What are you saying? If one zerg is larger than the other, bring more players?

That’s an incredibly asinine argument to make.

90% of fights against larger Zergs feel futile in WvW because the ressurection mechanics make it an almost insurmountable problem. And that’s just bad design.

There’s a difference between fighting against bad odds and feeling like you might as well just walk away.

Downed state is great for PvE and even adds a level of team play to sPvP, but should be removed from WvW. There is no incentive to attack a larger force because even if you jump them in a perfect ambush, most of your team will die trying to “stake” the downed players. Remove downed state and you’ll see a lot of zergs breaking off into smaller strike teams to take objectives, run decoys, and ambush larger groups.

Reviving dead players should still exist, but should only be possible while outside of combat. Can’t change your skill bar? Can’t revive your friend.

I think the worst part of downed state is not downed state itself but the abilities given.
If you can stall your staking or move around…it sort of works contrary to the whole concept of being dead inside your lines and rezzable vs in enemy lines and not….and the idea of pushing to prevent rezzes or allow rezzes on your side.

All of the teleport/movement/CC abilities seem to just promote stalling or mashing a button to “win” (in this case escaping) and not really add much to strategy in the game in this format or sPvP….

Korgov.7645:

KnattyDreads.1856:

Korgov.7645:

You talk about skilled 5-man team against unskilled 25-man zerg. Then the other guy rolla the stupid ball further and talks about 10-man heros squad defending against mindless 25-man zerg. Hello?

The numbers are even when all servers hit the queues. If your server does not have enough players to fill the battlefield then there is your issue.

You should be talking about 5 skilled 5-man teams collaborating against 25-man zerg – and being unsuccessful due the downed state. But that is not the case, is it?

Or 25 players defending keep with smart siege selection, smuggling in supplies, well-timed flanking attacks against a 25-man zerg. Then complain it is impossible due downed state. But that is not the case either, is it?

Wow, if it was ever possible to miss the point people are making in a thread, you have managed to accomplish it in record time. And do me the favor of quoting one person in this thread who has stated a 5man team should be able to role a 25man zerg

talk about the stupid ball…..

“and it makes many 2v1s virtually impossible to win.” – Dee jay
“Just think of how many realistic options a 10 defenders have at defeating a 25 man Zerg attacking their keep” – Dee Jay
“skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number " – KnattyDreads
“epic defenses 10v30 at the walls” – Fabsm

Ok, not 5vs25 but you get the picture. Everyone is putting forwards delusional scenarios to justify the downed state is to blame for their “skill” not being rewarded.

When you quote me use the entire sentence; “Many times in my own experience (and in witnessing others in combat) a skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number or at the least bring that number down to more manageable odds (through skill, build, organization terrain,etc.)”
Now, just so I understand your thought process:
- It is delusional to think a 5-man team can beat a group 2-3 times their number
- It is delusional to think that that 10 men inside and defending a tower couldn’t defend against 25.
- It is delusional think that occasionally in an ‘epic’ battle, a group of ten defending (lets just say a fortified tower with siege) couldn’t defeat 30 attackers.

So, none of this is plausible, it has never been done, if we think it can be done – we all have delusions of grandeur and are crying about ‘not being rewarded’. And just because we suggest that rezzing spiked players on the battlefield or the application of the ‘downed state’ in WvW be modified. We are; "putting forwards delusional scenarios to justify the downed state is to blame for their “skill” not being rewarded."
We are discussing possible changes to the state of a downed or spiked player so the advantage (of that state and the ability to get out of it) isn’t automatically applied to the group with greater numbers.

Yeah, just before you came in and posted in this thread I was complaining about not getting rewarded for my skill. /sarcasm

you guys has no experience fighting with good people on your side :P IRON takes out larger zergs all the time, 25 vs 30/35 is our normal zerg fight and we win 96% of them easily. downedstate is easy to crush.

Do you realize that to revive a downed player another needs to stop attacking right? so if 10 players are down atleast 10 more needs to stop attacking. so thats atleast 20 people not fighting you :P if you cant win anything that has more players then you, well then you need to get better..

Dee Jay.2460:

You still aren’t making any sense whatsoever?

What are you saying? If one zerg is larger than the other, bring more players?

That’s an incredibly asinine argument to make.

90% of fights against larger Zergs feel futile in WvW because the ressurection mechanics make it an almost insurmountable problem. And that’s just bad design.

There’s a difference between fighting against bad odds and feeling like you might as well just walk away.

Why it should not feel futile? The larger group has more claim for victory than your small group.

If your team is unable to set up fights so that the odds favor you, you have been out-played strategy wise. Walking away is sometimes an excellent option.

Korgov.7645:

Dee Jay.2460:

You still aren’t making any sense whatsoever?

What are you saying? If one zerg is larger than the other, bring more players?

That’s an incredibly asinine argument to make.

90% of fights against larger Zergs feel futile in WvW because the ressurection mechanics make it an almost insurmountable problem. And that’s just bad design.

There’s a difference between fighting against bad odds and feeling like you might as well just walk away.

Why it should not feel futile? The larger group has more claim for victory than your small group.

If your team is unable to set up fights so that the odds favor you, you have been out-played strategy wise. Walking away is sometimes an excellent option.

Perfect then we are in agreement. Remove the ability to rez a spiked player on the battlefield and I’ll take these odds all day long.

Jiiub.7135:

you guys has no experience fighting with good people on your side :P IRON takes out larger zergs all the time, 25 vs 30/35 is our normal zerg fight and we win 96% of them easily. downedstate is easy to crush.

Do you realize that to revive a downed player another needs to stop attacking right? so if 10 players are down atleast 10 more needs to stop attacking. so thats atleast 20 people not fighting you :P if you cant win anything that has more players then you, well then you need to get better..

Of course it is possible for coordinated groups to take on larger ones. That’s cool and quite a feat to pull off as some videos here have proven lately.

But those kind of fights make up maybe 2% of all larger scale WvW fights. Most of the time it’s one uncoordinated Zerg. fighting against another uncoordinated Zerg. And that’s what the game should be designed around. What 98% of players experience, not what the 2% Elite players experience.

And let’s no ignore how many times even such coordinated groups fail due to rezzing. Or maybe they can wipe 70% of the enemy Zerg but not kill them off completely. Well then that enemy Zerg will rezz itself back to full power within 2 minutes while your coordinated group is all dead.

It may see like coordinated groups regularly wipe larger groups but that’s only because those are the attempts they put in videos. You don’t get to see all the attempts where they fail and the enemy zerg just rezzes back up making everything effectively futile.

KnattyDreads.1856:

Yeah, just before you came in and posted in this thread I was complaining about not getting rewarded for my skill. /sarcasm

“Moving in a tight 5-man team with defined roles and coordination is being overtly penalized. Many times in my own experience (and in witnessing others in combat) a skilled small team has the ability to wipe 2 to 3 times their number or at the least bring that number down to more manageable odds (through skill, build, organization terrain,etc.) Herein lies the issue, the longer the fight continues the opponent with an advantage in numbers just rezzes the spiked/downed allies in the back field creating a constant trickle of opponents and an unending re-enforcement train. The result, the smaller team (which in some instances could have beaten the opponent with double or triple numbers) is overrun, pushed out or wiped.” – KnattyDreads

Yup, that was exactly what you did there.

Jiiub.7135:

you guys has no experience fighting with good people on your side :P IRON takes out larger zergs all the time, 25 vs 30/35 is our normal zerg fight and we win 96% of them easily. downedstate is easy to crush.

Do you realize that to revive a downed player another needs to stop attacking right? so if 10 players are down atleast 10 more needs to stop attacking. so thats atleast 20 people not fighting you :P if you cant win anything that has more players then you, well then you need to get better..

Come now, it takes mere seconds to res someone with a zerg of that size. It’s not that big of an issue. My main goal with this discussion is to explore how downed state effects WvW and, how in my view, it perpetuates the use of zergs rather than smaller, coordinated teams.

To be honest, my idea of fun isn’t running with a horde spamming 1. I was thinking about why zerging was the optimal strategy in WvW and my conclusion was the res mechanic. In an individual battle, zergs don’t have to out play, they just have to have enough people to out res. It’s not conducive to an environment that fosters tactics and ability. That’s my issue with it and why I think downed state is flawed in WvW.

Just removing downed state w/o removing the AoE limit will encourage more zerging not less. If a person falling during battle is “permanent” then you will want to make sure you always have spare bodies in your group.

Right now a small group of 5 people can move about the map rather freely, since if 1 person goes down somewhere in the map you can rez them back up quickly and continue moving before being caught. On the other hand, if downed is removed, or forced teleport on death is added, if 1 member of that 5 goes down, the entire group must go back to Wp and start their roam over.

In my opinion, downed encourages small group play, and “fun” aggressive tactics, over large zergs and static siege vs siege battles.

Ok i will post one final advice then, move to a better server that has some real coordinated groups as i DO NOT want the brainless zerg getting handicaps that works against us Hardcore WvW players.

maybe going to dead directly wont be bad, but maybe it will.

Come to Desolation and learn what a organized server can do in WvW unlike what your experiences seems to be so far of it. we have Organized WvW with commanders and TS from and around 11am GMT+1 to 2 am GMT+1 every day of the week

Look for Iron!

Whats wrong with glass cannons? Just because you dont like them and because they have a part in pvp doesnt mean they should remove a function that benefits them. I dont feel tanks have a place in real pvp yet spvp requires bunkers almost religiously. Then again spvp isnt real pvp.

Jiiub.7135:

Ok i will post one final advice then, move to a better server that has some real coordinated groups as i DO NOT want the brainless zerg getting handicaps that works against us Hardcore WvW players.

maybe going to dead directly wont be bad, but maybe it will.

Come to Desolation and learn what a organized server can do in WvW unlike what your experiences seems to be so far of it. we have Organized WvW with commanders and TS from and around 11am GMT+1 to 2 am GMT+1 every day of the week

Look for Iron!

Putting aside the obvious fact that your server is the best, IRON is down right unstoppable and the rest of us are just plebs sitting at the foot of the table hoping for some scraps to fall down from the elite….

What are the potential handicaps you foresee with a ‘waypoint on spike’ ‘removal of downed state’ or ‘no rez while in combat’ for your Organized WvW when fighting the unwashed horde (aka the brainless zerg.)? This is a serious question.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

I dont feel tanks have a place in real pvp yet spvp requires bunkers almost religiously. Then again spvp isnt real pvp.

Ha! You are just trying to pick a fight aren’t you :p

KnattyDreads.1856:

Jiiub.7135:

Ok i will post one final advice then, move to a better server that has some real coordinated groups as i DO NOT want the brainless zerg getting handicaps that works against us Hardcore WvW players.

maybe going to dead directly wont be bad, but maybe it will.

Come to Desolation and learn what a organized server can do in WvW unlike what your experiences seems to be so far of it. we have Organized WvW with commanders and TS from and around 11am GMT+1 to 2 am GMT+1 every day of the week

Look for Iron!

Putting aside the obvious fact that your server is the best, IRON is down right unstoppable and the rest of us are just plebs sitting at the foot of the table hoping for some scraps to fall down from the elite….

What are the potential handicaps you foresee with a ‘waypoint on spike’ ‘removal of downed state’ or ‘no rez while in combat’ for your Organized WvW when fighting the unwashed horde (aka the brainless zerg.)? This is a serious question.

First of thank you for the compliments ^^ and second, a good group with less players can thanks to downed state revive and keep fighting a bigger zerg aswell, its not just the other way around. its not just the big ones that gain from reviving people, think of this instead then, Big zerg smacks you, you lose 10% or more of your force, well now the enemy is even bigger then you and there is nothing you can do, you can make a good revive work plus cc work to get your number back up and keep fighting, instead you are all going down just because you had less numbers.

This wont help any side, it will hurt both…

I second the notion that downed state hurts WvW. It is a significant unbalancing factor in fights where odds are 2:1 or worse. The side with more players inherently has an advantage. In fact, an exponential advantage (all other things being equal – gear, levels, skill). The fact that the already exponential advantage is even further increased by the downed mechanic heavily favoring the side who has more numbers (I don’t think anyone disputes this?) is imo just silly.

Now, I’m not opposed to out-of-combat ressing. But in-combat downed state and ress mechanics help the side that has more numbers. Don’t bring this “lol zergs are scrubs, you should be able to kill them or ur bad” argument. I don’t care about underleveled zergs, I care about a guild group of 10 coming across another guild group of 20.

My solution to this is, once your HP goes zero, you drop dead. Only people that are out of combat can revive you. That still slightly favors the larger group since they can afford to have a few people out on the back healing, but that gives the smaller group some interesting challenges like tagging healers.

I want to add that i do not know if it will be bad or good, but right now WvW needs alot of other things and i rather not change things that work while other things are downright bad.

Maybe a trial of drop to dead and hear from the hardcore community(like that will ever happen) and we can see. I will give you that it does bring some things up that could change some things for the better, but there are negatives i can see also

I can tell, that I had some bad time too with my engineer in downed state (I think engineer skills are bad for a downed state but it’s my opinion). However I got some really close save from my guildmates too. If you fight in 2v1 then always just shoot some bullet into the person who in downed or hit him so he cant really res himself up or if the other person start to res him, then just start to shoot him! Free target practice!!

The only problem with downed state is that certain classes have a significant advantage over others. Their downed state extends the duration of a fight significantly.
Thieves/Mesmers/Elementalists

IMO this is how it should be for each class

1) Direct Damage + condition OR higher DD
2) SOFT CC (IE, short knock back, 1 second knockdown, 1 second grab, etc)
3) Heal mechanic
4) Bandage

Having stealth, cloning, and invulnerability within a downed state is just silly. I’ve seen fights where it was a 5 man, and they were 3 D/D eles and 2 thieves and they were able to literally outlast most other people even though they were each knocked down 1-2 times.

Jiiub.7135:

I will give you that it does bring some things up that could change some things for the better, but there are negatives i can see also

Agreed, there can alwaysbe unintended consequences when making changes.

I will also agree with one of your earlier posts regarding the rez working to the advantage of the group with lesser allies. I have had on occasion a battle with the lesser side rezzing allies to come back in a fight after losing an initial 10-15% of the group. This tends to be the exception rather than the rule

KnattyDreads.1856:

Jiiub.7135:

I will give you that it does bring some things up that could change some things for the better, but there are negatives i can see also

Agreed, there can alwaysbe unintended consequences when making changes.

I will also agree with one of your earlier posts regarding the rez working to the advantage of the group with lesser allies. I have had on occasion a battle with the lesser side rezzing allies to come back in a fight after losing an initial 10-15% of the group. This tends to be the exception rather than the rule

yea, i think its really up to how much of the zerg is organized guild compared to randoms. with more organized ressing becomes natural and something we are to do as soon as we see someone fall while a solo player might not care to res others but im used to IRON on Deso, so its ofcourse hard for me to imagine the life on servers which lacks big organized guilds and how their fights turn out

Jiiub.7135:

KnattyDreads.1856:

Jiiub.7135:

I will give you that it does bring some things up that could change some things for the better, but there are negatives i can see also

Agreed, there can alwaysbe unintended consequences when making changes.

I will also agree with one of your earlier posts regarding the rez working to the advantage of the group with lesser allies. I have had on occasion a battle with the lesser side rezzing allies to come back in a fight after losing an initial 10-15% of the group. This tends to be the exception rather than the rule

yea, i think its really up to how much of the zerg is organized guild compared to randoms. with more organized ressing becomes natural and something we are to do as soon as we see someone fall while a solo player might not care to res others but im used to IRON on Deso, so its ofcourse hard for me to imagine the life on servers which lacks big organized guilds and how their fights turn out

Well, I’d like to think those of us in T1 WvW NA have a medium of sense when it comes to coordination. But alas we will have to wait for the day when ANet lets NA beat on EU :p

i mean in general with the amount of people here who sees major problems with it which i have never seen at all some of us are on great servers and are putting in lots of time, some less so. I have been on WvW since the start, its all i do, i dont do PvE at all except for some guild farm and maybe to level a alt abit. before IRON i quit playing for 2 months because i got so kitten bored with WvW, then i came back found IRON and its been awesome since

I hope more people find or start the guilds needed to make great WvW fights possible and get more players to stick around.

Jiiub,

Agreed, Dub-v-Dub is everything for me and the crew I run with. It was our passion from beta and is our endgame (we have been lost since DoAC). I think everyone here is exploring the greater means to an end; which is the success of GW2 and Dub-v-Dub specifically. I just happen to think the downed state needs addressing and….the culling in the name of everything that is good and holy….the culling. (culling belongs in another thread )

Carry on the discussion.

bumping for more support

You may have noticed from the many similar threads created on this topic that there is a clear divide between the pro and anti downed state groups. However, common to both groups is a desire for strategy to win over sheer force and numbers.

In my view, the downed state, rallying, and ressing add tremendous amounts strategy to the game. Knockdowns, stability, stealth, and stuns have utility that otherwise wouldn’t exist without these mechanics. Instead of timing your skills to save a teammate or down an enemy, players can just spam them with little care of such crucial turning points. Rallying and raising also makes positioning extremely important – after all, ressing is near impossible if someone is dead in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

I suspect your problem is that enemy “zergs” may have an easier time controlling their positioning. Small groups should ensure they have players that can AoE downed or dead foes, force zergs through choke points, build and use siege, and time interrupts appropriately.

Post was moved from another thread directing it to this one.

Nemo.6295:

It is annoying but I don’t want it eliminated. If they made it so there is a chance to either get “downed” or directly killed.

becouse adding more RNG is always good for a competitive game -.-

no just NO…

you die you are dead and you should be, no downed state, just DEAD!…

i cannot for hte live of me figure out how downed system in pvp would add anything positive to either casual or pro players gameplay experience..

Kaleden.9386:

You may have noticed from the many similar threads created on this topic that there is a clear divide between the pro and anti downed state groups. However, common to both groups is a desire for strategy to win over sheer force and numbers.

In my view, the downed state, rallying, and ressing add tremendous amounts strategy to the game. Knockdowns, stability, stealth, and stuns have utility that otherwise wouldn’t exist without these mechanics. Instead of timing your skills to save a teammate or down an enemy, players can just spam them with little care of such crucial turning points. Rallying and raising also makes positioning extremely important – after all, ressing is near impossible if someone is dead in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

I suspect your problem is that enemy “zergs” may have an easier time controlling their positioning. Small groups should ensure they have players that can AoE downed or dead foes, force zergs through choke points, build and use siege, and time interrupts appropriately.

BULLkitten!!!!
all these aspects are EXTREMELY importent with or without, even more so without a downing system becouse you would actually have to THINK! since there is no second,third, and houndred chance, if you kitten up its over and the tide of battle could turn fast becouse you mindlessly and moronicly kittened up and there is no due over without a downing system.

the downing system REMOVE! the meaning of all these, becouse if you kitten up who cares you got unlimited chances to try as long as your in a big zerg or simply just outnumber the enemy….

downing adds absolutely nothing positive to the good players which are well organised and good at positioning and tactical decision, since these players will normally shine when outnumbered the downing system is a HUGE handicap for them that makes it really hard for them to win vs zergers (actually to the point of impossible.)

Kaleden.9386:

In my view, the downed state, rallying, and ressing add tremendous amounts strategy to the game. Knockdowns, stability, stealth, and stuns have utility that otherwise wouldn’t exist without these mechanics. Instead of timing your skills to save a teammate or down an enemy, players can just spam them with little care of such crucial turning points. Rallying and raising also makes positioning extremely important – after all, ressing is near impossible if someone is dead in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

I concur that downed-state does add a lair of strategy and that’s fine. I can live with the downed state. Stealth Stomps, Stability Stomps and Haste Stomps all have their place and that’s fine. My only gripe with the downed-state is just how quickly people can revive you from it. Most of the time a revive is faster than your standard stomp and that’s just game-breaking.

Rallying is a bit of a mixed bag. Having 10 people rally off of a PvE mob that happened to get caught in the AoE is hardly a cool feature. In fact it’s one of those freakishly frustrating side effects of the system

Rallying would be ok if you couldn’t rally from more than a few targets at once and the “tag” duration should be a lot shorter. Rally vs. Rezzing is an interesting tactical choice but the current incarnation of Rally, especially in WvW is just too random and unpredictable.

The game-breaking feature is the ability to resurrect (and with a few players you can do this in 5-10 seconds) a defeated (aka. spiked) anywhere and very quickly. That’s what’s truly hurting the game. Killing players, even if it’s just picking off individuals, should mean something and contribute towards a fight.

Currently it does not. You could sneakily pick off a dozen players from an enemy Zerg laying Siege to your Keep and in the end it wouldn’t achieve anything. That’s what’s truly frustrating.

Dee Jay.2460:

I concur that downed-state does add a lair of strategy and that’s fine.

how does it add to tactics to allow people to be mindless and still be rewarded or get second chance’s`?

what is the most tactic:
having to do the right tactic the first time or getting several chances to do it currect?.
which of those two requires the highest amount of tactical knowledge and application of such knowledge?…

same goes for rallying, you never see this used as a tactical purpose (very simply just becouse the mechanic does not allow for such use since its not a releyable way to get up at all and its based primary on luck then tactic.)

reviving dead players should not be durable during combat.
i do not mind the winning side being rewarded and allowed to get up their fallen camrades AFTER the fight is all over, to keep pushing into enemy territory and prevent wait time for people to catch up.

i do completely agree with the frustration which you describe in the end..
personally i got little interest in pvp at all becouse of the downing system(get so kitten overtime i or the enemy get downed, the system is just provoking all the way.)
think i see it with the same eyes most fps players see noobtubes -.- its a badly implemented mechanic which got no place and is WAY!! too effective for the losing parts with no efford put into making this effective. its damaging the gameplay and making a MUCH worse pvp system than it could be..

if there is a need for faster reinforcement in wvwvw then put more waypoint in the castle which you have concurred which would also give a more tactical reason to get specific forts to be able to reinforce fast and would allow to lay siege to those to stop the reinforcement of an enemy siege happening which is dependent on that spawn point for reinforcement