Guild Wars 2

Siad.3608:

My biggest problem is every kitten class has a way to stop you at least once from finishing them off. If the Devs are so insistent upon keeping down state in the game, at least remove everything but the auto attack and heal ability.

What class are you playing, may I ask? :o

Stability and Quickness are your friends when finishing players. If you don’t have those with your class, maybe ANET’s balancing would be better off giving your class some form of those two abilities instead of removing Downed State mechanics.

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

That’s not me. Your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious tbh. Also, the first one is not just one single fight. There’s several fights where players don’t go down, and we fight 6-8 times our number and come out on top. Your argument was also about how downed state only helps skilless players. So, because we use downed state when far outnumbered we’re obviously not skilled.

Your argument is quickly breaking down. If you run a small group and can’t take out larger numbers, complaining that the downed skill is the reason why, but we can, but yet we’re bad because we used the downed skill(something that is only supposed to help zergs and hurt small groups); wait a minute, what?

You don’t want to accept that you’re wrong, and that you’re not god’s gift to pvp and that you need more practice and should re-evaluate how you play.

You aren’t taking out large numbers -.- you are fighting like ~10 people. They are also underlevelled and undergeared. You are lucky you are on a bottom tier match up. I think if you guys are serious you should transfer to Ehmry Bay.

Yep, you clearly opened and immediately closed the link. I’m not going to do the work for you and find the timestamps. The fights are in there. You’re the one with the problem, who can’t figure out how to win. I also said we already transferred to dragonbrand. Nothing changed. Still wiping outnumbering groups. Do you just like skim everything or what?

As far as ressing and downing, someone has to do it. If you’re the person who just runs around assuming that finishing a target is someone else’s job, well, you’re being the opposite of a team player. A team is comprised of individuals who fill roles and work together for a common goal. They’ll always be more effective than the same amount of players who just run around doing whatever they want on the fly. This is probably why you are not doing as well as you think you should, and rather than finding a solution, wish to complain that it is clearly the game’s fault.

lol personally if they remove down state, i am probably not going into WvW nearly as much as before. the run from spawn to combat area is way 2 long and hold a keep long enough to have a waypoint and keep it open only work when ur holding ur own or winning, not when ur losing badly. if they are going to remove/revamp the down state for wvw theres an entire chain of issue that crops up. in relation to supply line to the front, respawns, the near impossibility of holding a tower by enemy spawn, etc etc.

Kirrund.2654:

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

That’s not me. Your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious tbh. Also, the first one is not just one single fight. There’s several fights where players don’t go down, and we fight 6-8 times our number and come out on top. Your argument was also about how downed state only helps skilless players. So, because we use downed state when far outnumbered we’re obviously not skilled.

Your argument is quickly breaking down. If you run a small group and can’t take out larger numbers, complaining that the downed skill is the reason why, but we can, but yet we’re bad because we used the downed skill(something that is only supposed to help zergs and hurt small groups); wait a minute, what?

You don’t want to accept that you’re wrong, and that you’re not god’s gift to pvp and that you need more practice and should re-evaluate how you play.

You aren’t taking out large numbers -.- you are fighting like ~10 people. They are also underlevelled and undergeared. You are lucky you are on a bottom tier match up. I think if you guys are serious you should transfer to Ehmry Bay.

Yep, you clearly opened and immediately closed the link. I’m not going to do the work for you and find the timestamps. The fights are in there. You’re the one with the problem, who can’t figure out how to win. I also said we already transferred to dragonbrand. Nothing changed. Still wiping outnumbering groups. Do you just like skim everything or what?

Well hopefully Dragonbrand ends up versing Maguuma thats all I am going to say on this matter.

Also if you want to watch a video where the enemy actually attempts to res their fallen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npQFOrc4Gxg for you. Unfortunate for us we don’t have a thief that spams #2 all day on the downed people

mischwoof.9785:

Siad.3608:

My biggest problem is every kitten class has a way to stop you at least once from finishing them off. If the Devs are so insistent upon keeping down state in the game, at least remove everything but the auto attack and heal ability.

What class are you playing, may I ask? :o

Stability and Quickness are your friends when finishing players. If you don’t have those with your class, maybe ANET’s balancing would be better off giving your class some form of those two abilities instead of removing Downed State mechanics.

Thief and Ranger. Thief has no stability and I’m not running with quickness atm. Usually on my thief I just attack someone until they die because of the burst and it just seems to go faster at times.

As for the Ranger, yesterday I was playing as a tanky finisher in our group because I do have alot of quickness on it. Although I will admit I hate playing my Ranger because the class is simply boring and the issues I have with that class go on and on and have nothing to do with down state.

Regardless, quickness and stability don’t mean anything on a thief, mesmer, or ele since they can move their characters out of the range of the finish.

SpaceLord.4590:

Not really. Your view is very narrow.

The rez function also helps the small group trying to defend a keep or tower against a zerg as well. If you are on the wall on seige and get AOE’d by the zerg, one of the other 5 can rez you so you can keep defending.

It goes both ways.

I have nothing against ability of resurrect. Downed state what I’m against.

Dimk.5293:

SpaceLord.4590:

Not really. Your view is very narrow.

The rez function also helps the small group trying to defend a keep or tower against a zerg as well. If you are on the wall on seige and get AOE’d by the zerg, one of the other 5 can rez you so you can keep defending.

It goes both ways.

I have nothing against ability of resurrect. Downed state what I’m against.

Yer this is exactly how I feel hopefully I am not confusing people when I say downed state.

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

That’s not me. Your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious tbh. Also, the first one is not just one single fight. There’s several fights where players don’t go down, and we fight 6-8 times our number and come out on top. Your argument was also about how downed state only helps skilless players. So, because we use downed state when far outnumbered we’re obviously not skilled.

Your argument is quickly breaking down. If you run a small group and can’t take out larger numbers, complaining that the downed skill is the reason why, but we can, but yet we’re bad because we used the downed skill(something that is only supposed to help zergs and hurt small groups); wait a minute, what?

You don’t want to accept that you’re wrong, and that you’re not god’s gift to pvp and that you need more practice and should re-evaluate how you play.

You aren’t taking out large numbers -.- you are fighting like ~10 people. They are also underlevelled and undergeared. You are lucky you are on a bottom tier match up. I think if you guys are serious you should transfer to Ehmry Bay.

Yep, you clearly opened and immediately closed the link. I’m not going to do the work for you and find the timestamps. The fights are in there. You’re the one with the problem, who can’t figure out how to win. I also said we already transferred to dragonbrand. Nothing changed. Still wiping outnumbering groups. Do you just like skim everything or what?

Well hopefully Dragonbrand ends up versing Maguuma thats all I am going to say on this matter.

Also if you want to watch a video where the enemy actually attempts to res their fallen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npQFOrc4Gxg for you.

Right, because there’s nothing else you can say. You’ve already been proven wrong, you won’t admit to it, and that’s fine. Go ahead and make a few more threads complaining about the downed state, instead of swallowing your pride and trying to approach your problem from a better angle. I look forward to squashing zergs on Maguuma if/when it ever happens. I am not saying that we’re the best in the world or that we never lose. There are zergs that are simply so unmanageable in numbers that they are too much. But there is certainly video evidence of at least one 3-7 man group taking on numbers 30, 40, and 50 at a time, and winning, whether you want to accept that or not. Good players look for ways to win and accept that there is always something to learn, always a way to get better. Bad players refuse to adapt, and instead complain about stuff they blame for their loss.

As for the video, you 4 were fighting about 8 players. You also went down and died at 2:45, and your group was scattered and not sticking together. Amazing video play. 10/10

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Hi guys, i’m Nisha the Medicat.

I play the game, and, indeed, have built my entire character, from the name, to my role in wvwvw, around the downed state.

Since BWE 1 i’ve been a tank spec engineer built to ressurect allies. (Hence MediCat)

Please consider what removing downed state would do to team players. You CAN have people in your group that can finish people off. Just because your class can’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s imbalanced. The game is built around teamwork, and the downed state encourages more teamwork than any other MMO i’ve played. :>

This reminds me of healing classes from other MMOs. I thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in this game however now you are suggesting that we should build our team strictly around comp roles (certain res masters , and downed stompers)? You have to expand on how you say it encourages more team then any other MMO – Why? Because I have yet to see how it encourages teamwork.

I don’t get what you’re saying. You thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in the game, but.. me playing a team-oriented resurrection build isn’t diversity?

Don’t you think there would be LESS diversity if downed state was removed?

I never said you should build your team around roles, and I don’t know where that assumption came from. You don’t have to fill a niche role to finish players off. All you have to do is be aware, and have a skill in your arsenal that can secure a finish.

It’s kind of shocking to hear that you don’t know how teamwork and the downed state tie in together! Allow me to explain (Because I love to!)

Teamwork is quite simply, people working together. Whenever Team A’s ally goes down, teamwork is encouraged on both sides. Team A is going to try to push up and save that ally, because if they don’t, they’ll lose manpower, and more importantly, if they die, they’ll rally any Team B members that are downed.

Team B is going to actively seek and try to finish that downed Team A member, because it will rally downed allies, and it will reduce Team A’s forces. Likewise, Team A is trying to do the same thing to any downed Team B forces.

I have never seen so many people that don’t know each other at all work together in a game until now. I’ve been in assaults where the entire group of people that were retreating, would go back and extract one person. Downed State brings players closer together!

What all this good players/bad players bs. This is a game and people play for fun. You want to be good at something – play sports or get a job.

Kirrund.2654:

That’s also not necessarily true, because we’ve fought coordinated zergs as well and when multiple players try to pickup those players are usually already damaged. We use pulls, knockbacks and aoe daze to stop recovery, and usually a bunch of people sitting there trying to rez/pickup one guy while we lay into them is a death sentence. If they use stability to rez then we made them blow cooldowns and far more people are going down faster than they can all be picked up. If people are picking up downed they aren’t doing anything, and they also aren’t dodging or moving; they’re soaking damage. There’s also always quickness dunking as well.

Your argument is fairly weak. You complain that downed state keeps you from solo vs x, but go on to say that you have no problem soloing 6 players who are uncoordinated. So what’s the complaint? Is everybody that you run into just some godmode amazing player that’s totally coordinated? I know that’s not the case, because there just aren’t that many good players. (Just like in every game)

Coordination is part of skill. Why do you assume that because you aren’t able to take out 6 coordinated players that you’re automatically better than them and deserve to win? You obviously have a high opinion of your skill level, far beyond the actual value.

The fact I run solo most of the time defiantly puts me in the worst case since I have effectively removed myself from benefiting from this mechanic. If I see 6 guys from different guilds, a few down arrows and whatever else yea it’s not really an issue. Half the time they don’t even try to revive or one guy does it too late and honestly even if I do or don’t finish all these guys it hardly matters because who cares?

The times it sucks is when I run into a guild group of 5 or so. Usually they are camping somewhere in the EB Jump puzzle. These people are coordinated enough to knockback or stability rez but the mere fact I can dance around the base area of the JP downing one after another by itself means they are terrible. Do you think I could do that to your group? Those are the type of people this mechanic helps more than anything. If there were no downed state at all, I bet your group would perform just as well, you wouldn’t have to focus so much on using/countering that mechanic.

You like it, and I can see why you do. You run with enough people to maximize it and with enough DPS to kill people without even having to stomp. Any grouping on a smaller scale is just not near as viable. I would bet most people who are against it have my play-style, solo to 3 max. It doesn’t matter what my skill level is because there will always be people worse and that’s what I’m talking about.

Kirrund.2654:

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

That’s not me. Your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious tbh. Also, the first one is not just one single fight. There’s several fights where players don’t go down, and we fight 6-8 times our number and come out on top. Your argument was also about how downed state only helps skilless players. So, because we use downed state when far outnumbered we’re obviously not skilled.

Your argument is quickly breaking down. If you run a small group and can’t take out larger numbers, complaining that the downed skill is the reason why, but we can, but yet we’re bad because we used the downed skill(something that is only supposed to help zergs and hurt small groups); wait a minute, what?

You don’t want to accept that you’re wrong, and that you’re not god’s gift to pvp and that you need more practice and should re-evaluate how you play.

You aren’t taking out large numbers -.- you are fighting like ~10 people. They are also underlevelled and undergeared. You are lucky you are on a bottom tier match up. I think if you guys are serious you should transfer to Ehmry Bay.

Yep, you clearly opened and immediately closed the link. I’m not going to do the work for you and find the timestamps. The fights are in there. You’re the one with the problem, who can’t figure out how to win. I also said we already transferred to dragonbrand. Nothing changed. Still wiping outnumbering groups. Do you just like skim everything or what?

Well hopefully Dragonbrand ends up versing Maguuma thats all I am going to say on this matter.

Also if you want to watch a video where the enemy actually attempts to res their fallen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npQFOrc4Gxg for you.

Right, because there’s nothing else you can say. You’ve already been proven wrong, you won’t admit to it, and that’s fine. Go ahead and make a few more threads complaining about the downed state, instead of swallowing your pride and trying to approach your problem from a better angle. I look forward to squashing zergs on Maguuma if/when it ever happens. I am not saying that we’re the best in the world or that we never lose. There are zergs that are simply so unmanageable in numbers that they are too much. But there is certainly video evidence of at least one 3-7 man group taking on numbers 30, 40, and 50 at a time, and winning, whether you want to accept that or not. Good players look for ways to win and accept that there is always something to learn, always a way to get better. Bad players refuse to adapt, and instead complain about stuff they blame for their loss.

As for the video, you 4 were fighting about 8 players. You also went down and died at 2:45, and your group was scattered and not sticking together. Amazing video play. 10/10

If people had your attitude that you always just have to adapt, technology would not be where it is today. While you can adapt to a certain degree you also have to look at how to better the environment you are in. There is always a better way to do something and it’s only a few gifted individuals that can see this. This is why our technology is always improving because people question can we do this better and if so how?

Bunzy.8674:

Dimk.5293:

I have nothing against ability of resurrect. Downed state what I’m against.

Yer this is exactly how I feel hopefully I am not confusing people when I say downed state.

Wait, now I’m confused. You’d rather immediately die, tie up teammates who need to rez you (and be useless to them while they do so) rather than try to pick yourself back up or stay in the fight while they help you?

Bunzy.8674:

Kirrund.2654:

As for the video, you 4 were fighting about 8 players. You also went down and died at 2:45, and your group was scattered and not sticking together. Amazing video play. 10/10

If people had your attitude that you always just have to adapt, technology would not be where it is today. While you can adapt to a certain degree you also have to look at how to better the environment you are in. There is always a better way to do something and it’s only a few gifted individuals that can see this. This is why our technology is always improving because people question can we do this better and if so how?

And now we’ve devolved into Red Herring arguments…

mischwoof.9785:

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Hi guys, i’m Nisha the Medicat.

I play the game, and, indeed, have built my entire character, from the name, to my role in wvwvw, around the downed state.

Since BWE 1 i’ve been a tank spec engineer built to ressurect allies. (Hence MediCat)

Please consider what removing downed state would do to team players. You CAN have people in your group that can finish people off. Just because your class can’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s imbalanced. The game is built around teamwork, and the downed state encourages more teamwork than any other MMO i’ve played. :>

This reminds me of healing classes from other MMOs. I thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in this game however now you are suggesting that we should build our team strictly around comp roles (certain res masters , and downed stompers)? You have to expand on how you say it encourages more team then any other MMO – Why? Because I have yet to see how it encourages teamwork.

I don’t get what you’re saying. You thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in the game, but.. me playing a team-oriented resurrection build isn’t diversity?

Don’t you think there would be LESS diversity if downed state was removed?

I never said you should build your team around roles, and I don’t know where that assumption came from. You don’t have to fill a niche role to finish players off. All you have to do is be aware, and have a skill in your arsenal that can secure a finish.

It’s kind of shocking to hear that you don’t know how teamwork and the downed state tie in together! Allow me to explain (Because I love to!)

Teamwork is quite simply, people working together. Whenever Team A’s ally goes down, teamwork is encouraged on both sides. Team A is going to try to push up and save that ally, because if they don’t, they’ll lose manpower, and more importantly, if they die, they’ll rally any Team B members that are downed.

Team B is going to actively seek and try to finish that downed Team A member, because it will rally downed allies, and it will reduce Team A’s forces. Likewise, Team A is trying to do the same thing to any downed Team B forces.

I have never seen so many people that don’t know each other at all work together in a game until now. I’ve been in assaults where the entire group of people that were retreating, would go back and extract one person. Downed State brings players closer together!

So you are saying I should be complaining about my class rather then the downed state? The other day I was in a 3v1 and must of taken each one down twice however was unable to finish them off as the other two just kept ressing their fallen ally up before I could even finish any kind of channeling ability, I also couldn’t out dps the healing they were doing. The mechanic is so wrong on all levels and eventually people will see this.

silverphoenix.6571:

Bunzy.8674:

Dimk.5293:

I have nothing against ability of resurrect. Downed state what I’m against.

Yer this is exactly how I feel hopefully I am not confusing people when I say downed state.

Wait, now I’m confused. You’d rather immediately die, tie up teammates who need to rez you (and be useless to them while they do so) rather than try to pick yourself back up or stay in the fight while they help you?

Yes! Exactly this I would love it if this happened.

Bunzy, I’m curious do you run solo most of the time? I see you are a D/D ele which is one of the few solo viable prof builds.

Stiv.1820:

The fact I run solo most of the time defiantly puts me in the worst case since I have effectively removed myself from benefiting from this mechanic. If I see 6 guys from different guilds, a few down arrows and whatever else yea it’s not really an issue. Half the time they don’t even try to revive or one guy does it too late and honestly even if I do or don’t finish all these guys it hardly matters because who cares?

The times it sucks is when I run into a guild group of 5 or so. Usually they are camping somewhere in the EB Jump puzzle. These people are coordinated enough to knockback or stability rez but the mere fact I can dance around the base area of the JP downing one after another by itself means they are terrible. Do you think I could do that to your group? Those are the type of people this mechanic helps more than anything. If there were no downed state at all, I bet your group would perform just as well, you wouldn’t have to focus so much on using/countering that mechanic.

You like it, and I can see why you do. You run with enough people to maximize it and with enough DPS to kill people without even having to stomp. Any grouping on a smaller scale is just not near as viable. I would bet most people who are against it have my play-style, solo to 3 max. It doesn’t matter what my skill level is because there will always be people worse and that’s what I’m talking about.

Well, I don’t just like it, I think it adds excitement and intensity to the fights. Getting that crazy rally at the last second, or getting a scary close pickup in the middle of a bunch of enemies. It’s the kind of stuff that makes you scream and cheer. Without it, the fights would be quite a bit more boring.

I can understand for a solo player that it might be a little frustrating, but to me you just gave an example of (imo) what you should and should not be able to do. You say that in the jumping puzzle you can down players because they’re coordinated enough to use their skills a bit better, but not quite enough to actually win. Well, that’s okay. But against a better group, you have no chance. I really don’t see a problem with this. You have to understand that just because you can down someone super fast amongst their group doesn’t make them bad. Or because they made a mistake here or there doesn’t make them bad. Even good players make mistakes. There’s a lot of situations where there’s just not a whole lot you can do to keep yourself from being downed, due to the way that the game is balanced and the way that it works. If you’re out of cd’s, low on endurance, whatever. Sometimes, you’re just going to go down when someone unloads their burst or full combo or whatever.

The game’s damage output and total health pool is balanced around the downed state though. The downed state isn’t just some tack on to a balanced combat system, some extra addition thrown in to the mix, no, it is part of the combat system as a whole. Do you understand what I mean? Without the downed state, they would need to rework all damage amounts, all health levels, all that stuff. I think too many people have the WoW (or other MMO) mentality about this particular mechanic, and see it as two separate things.

As for solo roaming, you could always just accept that as a solo roamer, there’s things you just can’t do. You are playing WvW after all, a game type meant for coordination, teamwork, and yes, larger numbers. There will never be a game that has things balanced for solo roamers versus groups. And I think personally that it’s okay to sacrifice the “funness” of a solo roamer’s enjoyability for more depth and intensity in larger scale fights. You get more overall out of it.

Find more solo roamers, or create a guild for it, and invite all the known solo roamers into it. Form your group, and start working together. If you can get 5 people you can amplify what you do, and you’ll have more fun in the end, I guarantee.

From what I gather reading all this, bunzy attacks the person downed instead of the ressers. I face palmed from that. You attack the ressers, knock them back, don’t let them res. That’s your problem. Right there. Use aoe’s to attack both the downed person and the resser, guaranteed the resser will move on their own. Attack them, and they will more likely attack back, keep pegging the downed person every few seconds to cause them to have to wait for heal cool down, but focus on the ressers. Downed state is not your problem. Your tactics are.

P.S. Going solo in WvW is also part of your problem, that’s just asking to be killed.

Kirrund.2654:

The game’s damage output and total health pool is balanced around the downed state though. The downed state isn’t just some tack on to a balanced combat system, some extra addition thrown in to the mix, no, it is part of the combat system as a whole. Do you understand what I mean? Without the downed state, they would need to rework all damage amounts, all health levels, all that stuff. I think too many people have the WoW (or other MMO) mentality about this particular mechanic, and see it as two separate things.

This needs to emphasized.

I am perfectly okay with removing downed state if you cut all damage output in half.

Siad.3608:

Thief and Ranger. Thief has no stability and I’m not running with quickness atm. Usually on my thief I just attack someone until they die because of the burst and it just seems to go faster at times.

Thieves are the masters of finishers.

You can use stealth to negate most class’ downed defenses. With the 15-point Shadow Arts trait, your C&D stealth lasts long enough for a full stomp.

You also have Signet of Shadows, which is an instant-cast blind you can activate while channeling the finisher. You can use this to stop stuff like the guardian bubble (the untargeted area-effect knockdown they have).

Against thieves, you can use an instant-cast shadowstep (Steal, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadowstep if you are quick at aiming the circle) to shadowstep to them when they shadowstep away. It’s really satisfying when you do this, too! It works against mesmers, too, but only if they time their stealth-teleport poorly or you trick them.

Here’s a video that might help.

Kirrund.2654:

Well, I don’t just like it, I think it adds excitement and intensity to the fights. Getting that crazy rally at the last second, or getting a scary close pickup in the middle of a bunch of enemies. It’s the kind of stuff that makes you scream and cheer. Without it, the fights would be quite a bit more boring.

I can understand for a solo player that it might be a little frustrating, but to me you just gave an example of (imo) what you should and should not be able to do. You say that in the jumping puzzle you can down players because they’re coordinated enough to use their skills a bit better, but not quite enough to actually win. Well, that’s okay. But against a better group, you have no chance. I really don’t see a problem with this. You have to understand that just because you can down someone super fast amongst their group doesn’t make them bad. Or because they made a mistake here or there doesn’t make them bad. Even good players make mistakes. There’s a lot of situations where there’s just not a whole lot you can do to keep yourself from being downed, due to the way that the game is balanced and the way that it works. If you’re out of cd’s, low on endurance, whatever. Sometimes, you’re just going to go down when someone unloads their burst or full combo or whatever.

The game’s damage output and total health pool is balanced around the downed state though. The downed state isn’t just some tack on to a balanced combat system, some extra addition thrown in to the mix, no, it is part of the combat system as a whole. Do you understand what I mean? Without the downed state, they would need to rework all damage amounts, all health levels, all that stuff. I think too many people have the WoW (or other MMO) mentality about this particular mechanic, and see it as two separate things.

As for solo roaming, you could always just accept that as a solo roamer, there’s things you just can’t do. You are playing WvW after all, a game type meant for coordination, teamwork, and yes, larger numbers. There will never be a game that has things balanced for solo roamers versus groups. And I think personally that it’s okay to sacrifice the “funness” of a solo roamer’s enjoyability for more depth and intensity in larger scale fights. You get more overall out of it.

Find more solo roamers, or create a guild for it, and invite all the known solo roamers into it. Form your group, and start working together. If you can get 5 people you can amplify what you do, and you’ll have more fun in the end, I guarantee.

I don’t disagree with you really. I have played in a group and the downed state is there because there are no dedicated healers. Without it burst specs would be much more out of control. If you read my first reply in this topic, my advice to the OP was to learn to deal with it (along with my trawllolol line to you I couldn’t help). I have but I am simply voicing my distaste for the mechanic. I don’t deny is it fairly ingrained into the game and won’t change.

I do come from other games where solo was viable. Daoc, Aion etc. There a kill was a kill. Here a kill is a kill + an uninterrupted 3 second channel where you are relativity defenseless and instead of being able to focus or CC a healer everyone is a healer. So we adapt to the new normal.

I do enjoy solo WvW in this game even with the downed state that’s why I’m still here. It makes finishes even that much more sweet. I defiantly feel the OP’s annoyance though and I bet he is also a solo style player as well.

I think we can just agree the downed state is not going anywhere and people need to deal with it.

Disable in PVP. In PVE it makes perfect sense, since PVE is a rez-repeat most of the time unless people actually know what they’re doing.

Most of the time people just use their move at the end that wastes time, and the person dies anyway. People don’t like that people are getting rezzed, and that’s the real problem. The previous one is just an annoyance. I do like being able to mistform back into a door portal, but the amount of times I actually rallied after being downed is almost non-existant.

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Hi guys, i’m Nisha the Medicat.

I play the game, and, indeed, have built my entire character, from the name, to my role in wvwvw, around the downed state.

Since BWE 1 i’ve been a tank spec engineer built to ressurect allies. (Hence MediCat)

Please consider what removing downed state would do to team players. You CAN have people in your group that can finish people off. Just because your class can’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s imbalanced. The game is built around teamwork, and the downed state encourages more teamwork than any other MMO i’ve played. :>

This reminds me of healing classes from other MMOs. I thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in this game however now you are suggesting that we should build our team strictly around comp roles (certain res masters , and downed stompers)? You have to expand on how you say it encourages more team then any other MMO – Why? Because I have yet to see how it encourages teamwork.

I don’t get what you’re saying. You thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in the game, but.. me playing a team-oriented resurrection build isn’t diversity?

Don’t you think there would be LESS diversity if downed state was removed?

I never said you should build your team around roles, and I don’t know where that assumption came from. You don’t have to fill a niche role to finish players off. All you have to do is be aware, and have a skill in your arsenal that can secure a finish.

It’s kind of shocking to hear that you don’t know how teamwork and the downed state tie in together! Allow me to explain (Because I love to!)

Teamwork is quite simply, people working together. Whenever Team A’s ally goes down, teamwork is encouraged on both sides. Team A is going to try to push up and save that ally, because if they don’t, they’ll lose manpower, and more importantly, if they die, they’ll rally any Team B members that are downed.

Team B is going to actively seek and try to finish that downed Team A member, because it will rally downed allies, and it will reduce Team A’s forces. Likewise, Team A is trying to do the same thing to any downed Team B forces.

I have never seen so many people that don’t know each other at all work together in a game until now. I’ve been in assaults where the entire group of people that were retreating, would go back and extract one person. Downed State brings players closer together!

So you are saying I should be complaining about my class rather then the downed state? The other day I was in a 3v1 and must of taken each one down twice however was unable to finish them off as the other two just kept ressing their fallen ally up before I could even finish any kind of channeling ability, I also couldn’t out dps the healing they were doing. The mechanic is so wrong on all levels and eventually people will see this.

Judging from your post history, you seem to do both. :<

Can’t you finish while mist forming? Maybe that fight would’ve been different if you did. I don’t see how a game mechanic is wrong on all levels because you weren’t outfitted to fight multiple people.

mischwoof.9785:

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Bunzy.8674:

mischwoof.9785:

Hi guys, i’m Nisha the Medicat.

I play the game, and, indeed, have built my entire character, from the name, to my role in wvwvw, around the downed state.

Since BWE 1 i’ve been a tank spec engineer built to ressurect allies. (Hence MediCat)

Please consider what removing downed state would do to team players. You CAN have people in your group that can finish people off. Just because your class can’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s imbalanced. The game is built around teamwork, and the downed state encourages more teamwork than any other MMO i’ve played. :>

This reminds me of healing classes from other MMOs. I thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in this game however now you are suggesting that we should build our team strictly around comp roles (certain res masters , and downed stompers)? You have to expand on how you say it encourages more team then any other MMO – Why? Because I have yet to see how it encourages teamwork.

I don’t get what you’re saying. You thought we were all meant to be diverse in our roles in the game, but.. me playing a team-oriented resurrection build isn’t diversity?

Don’t you think there would be LESS diversity if downed state was removed?

I never said you should build your team around roles, and I don’t know where that assumption came from. You don’t have to fill a niche role to finish players off. All you have to do is be aware, and have a skill in your arsenal that can secure a finish.

It’s kind of shocking to hear that you don’t know how teamwork and the downed state tie in together! Allow me to explain (Because I love to!)

Teamwork is quite simply, people working together. Whenever Team A’s ally goes down, teamwork is encouraged on both sides. Team A is going to try to push up and save that ally, because if they don’t, they’ll lose manpower, and more importantly, if they die, they’ll rally any Team B members that are downed.

Team B is going to actively seek and try to finish that downed Team A member, because it will rally downed allies, and it will reduce Team A’s forces. Likewise, Team A is trying to do the same thing to any downed Team B forces.

I have never seen so many people that don’t know each other at all work together in a game until now. I’ve been in assaults where the entire group of people that were retreating, would go back and extract one person. Downed State brings players closer together!

So you are saying I should be complaining about my class rather then the downed state? The other day I was in a 3v1 and must of taken each one down twice however was unable to finish them off as the other two just kept ressing their fallen ally up before I could even finish any kind of channeling ability, I also couldn’t out dps the healing they were doing. The mechanic is so wrong on all levels and eventually people will see this.

Judging from your post history, you seem to do both. :<

Can’t you finish while mist forming? Maybe that fight would’ve been different if you did. I don’t see how a game mechanic is wrong on all levels because you weren’t outfitted to fight multiple people.

I tried using Mist Form, however the majority of the time I was still on cooldown having used it to survive the three enemies. This mechanic encourages numbers beat skill. That’s my problem with it.

Brendar.3548:

From what I gather reading all this, bunzy attacks the person downed instead of the ressers. I face palmed from that. You attack the ressers, knock them back, don’t let them res. That’s your problem. Right there. Use aoe’s to attack both the downed person and the resser, guaranteed the resser will move on their own. Attack them, and they will more likely attack back, keep pegging the downed person every few seconds to cause them to have to wait for heal cool down, but focus on the ressers. Downed state is not your problem. Your tactics are.

P.S. Going solo in WvW is also part of your problem, that’s just asking to be killed.

I have plenty of AOEs however the damage done compared to how fast people can heal is ridiculous. I do not have enough burst to do more damage then the amount of healing that is being received. I only have 2 knockbacks both are which normally on cooldown most of the time due to fighting larger enemies. So you can’t just simple AOE them or knock them back and hope to be successful. You do realise people can heal you faster then I can channel my stomp, that in itself is such a flawed game mechanic.

Seems like a spec and gear problem to me. You do realize people have more than 2k hp right? After watching your video you got some mAsSiVe 1000 damage crits there. You talk about our guardian being bad and unskilled but he does more damage in one telebubble than you do in 10 minutes. That’s a problem.

Downed state is worst thing I have seen in multiplayer gaming, and Ive played multiplayer games since 1991.

Bunzy you are a one man wrecking crew on the complaint train with the downed state mechanic. My only request is instead of making multiple posts (this is your 4th or 5th?) on the subject, just bump your old ones. We get it, you don’t like it, but for the love of all that is kitten WHY another DIFFERENT post on the subject??? This horse has been beaten to a pulp but hand me the stick I need to take a couple of whacks at it myself.

Bunzy.8674:

I am so over killing people just to have them instant ressed back up. This is not fun not does it reward skillfull gameplay.

It needs serious changes or remove the whole concept from any type of pvp.

Your complaint is invalid because your premise is completely wrong, as indicated by the two things I have highlighted above.

First, and most important, your premise is completely wrong because you haven’t killed someone if all you did was get them into a downed state. All you have done is put them in a state of increased vulnerability. The problem here is that you think that you have won just because you depleted their up-state health bar. The truth is, you haven’t won yet, and the very mechanics prove otherwise.

When you are downed, the message you receive is “Fight to survive,” and the message the get when standing next to you is “Finish him.” If you are fighting to survive and they have to “finish” you, you clearly are not yet dead. In fact, if you are able to rally from a downed state, you can actually down and stake your opponent. Likewise, you don’t receive the “You have been defeated” message until someone stakes you (or your downed state health bar is completely depleted), and the person you were fighting doesn’t receive rewards until you get that message. Downed does not equal dead, so your premise that you have killed them is simply wrong. That brings up the second major flaw in your premise, that it somehow cheats you out of a reward for “skillful” play.

There is a major flaw in thinking that being able to down, but not defeat, someone is an indication of more “skillful” play. As someone else mentioned, the game mechanics are balanced around the idea that there is a downed state. If there were no downed state, players would have more defenses, more health, and greater abilties to heal both themselves and others. The latter is particularly pertinent to this discussion because the complaint is that others are able to rally a downed player.

Reviving someone in a downed state is simply a healing mechanic. That mechanic is in place because the ability to heal ourselves or others is limited in this game. Likewise, there are no healing potions, etc., in this game like there are in others. As such, complaining that someone was revived from a downed state despite your “skillful” play is like complaining in another game that, despite your skillful play, someone survived by drinking a health potion, using a self-heal, or being kept up by a dedicated healer class.

The bottom line is that the downed state is not a defeated state, and you have not won until you have actually defeated them by staking them or depleting their downed state health bar. What needs to happen here is not to removed the mechanic but for people such as yourself to get over the notion that depleting someone’s up-state health bar is an indication that you have won. That may be true in some games, but in this game, there is a reserve (i.e., the downed state) health bar like the reserve area of a gas tank on a motorcycle. You are not really out of gas until you exhaust the supply on both sides of the tank. The same is true here. You haven’t won until you deplete both the up-state and down-state health bars.

Great post above ^

Jinks.2057:

This post makes absolutely zero sense.

Actually it made a lot of sense. Ressing is to me, one of the best teamwork features in the game.

Everyone dies sometimes, not because they’re idiots who should be punished. Frankly, if people are playing WvW to “punish” others, I’m a bit worried for the state of the game.

Sotaudi,

Well said and explained.

Downed state adds a layer of complexity to the game and it makes it much more fun for me, it doesn’t take away anything… if it were gone fighting in the game would simply be less interesting, tactical, fun etc.

Peetee.9406:

Kirrund.2654:

The game’s damage output and total health pool is balanced around the downed state though. The downed state isn’t just some tack on to a balanced combat system, some extra addition thrown in to the mix, no, it is part of the combat system as a whole. Do you understand what I mean? Without the downed state, they would need to rework all damage amounts, all health levels, all that stuff. I think too many people have the WoW (or other MMO) mentality about this particular mechanic, and see it as two separate things.

This needs to emphasized.

I am perfectly okay with removing downed state if you cut all damage output in half.

I am not okay with removing the downed state, but your point is valid as is Peetee’s.

I would add that, when someone is reviving a downed player, they are solely dedicated to that one task. They cannot execute offensive or defensive abilities. They cannot dodge or evade attacks. As such, they are risking themselves and lowering the overall group output in order to get that player back up. That is balance.

This is why what someone else mentions is so true. Having someone downed is really an opportunity to down others. This is particularly true when you are operating siege. I always love to down someone while operating an arrow cart or ballista on a tower. It often means that I can stack up multiple bodies in that same spot as others come to try to revive him. It’s a two-fer. While he becomes a sitting duck while I finish him off, others come in, locking themselves into that one task and making themselves easier targets, and I don’t even have to aim elsewhere. Yes, sometimes they get him up, but often, they end up joining him.

The mechanics are fine. There may need to be some tweaking that needs to be done, but the overall concept is fine. It just isn’t a rehash of the simplistic mechanic of defeat on the depletion of the main health bar mechanic that other games are slaves to, and it hurts some people’s, shall we say, e-gos to see a health bar depleted and not actually be done with the job.

The downed state puts a soft limit on small group warfare. Too many posts are focusing on even numbers or 1v2, 1v3. What people are complaining about is how it effects those numbers magnified to 5v15, 10v20, etc. The downed state mechanic gets more favorable for the larger/defending side the larger the fight is, which is a detriment to this game becoming something like DAOC, among other things. I understand why they put downed state in for spvp and pve, and I think they should stay there, but in WvW, it’s hindering the game’s progress toward a skill driven, small scale warfare game.

There’s nothing more discouraging then fighting a 5v13 and downing 20 people, losing none of your own because of the inability to finish. You will eventually lose or just need to run simply because they had more people that pressed a single button. In small scale, sacrificing one utility/weapon skill/class skill that ensures a finish is acceptable, but as numbers increase, the value of survival abilities scales higher as well. Popping them for finishers means you will probably die.

D/D ele has the least to complain about when it comes to downed state. I should know I play one. We have more than enough tools, more so than other classes, to deal with downed states.

While I agree that the downed state does need some changes, this thread is stupid.

Kuthos.9623:

D/D ele has the least to complain about when it comes to downed state. I should know I play one. We have more than enough tools, more so than other classes, to deal with downed states.

While I agree that the downed state does need some changes, this thread is stupid.

I like that the world revolves around you and your one profession. Thanks for setting things straight, smart guy.

Phzt.9864:

Kuthos.9623:

D/D ele has the least to complain about when it comes to downed state. I should know I play one. We have more than enough tools, more so than other classes, to deal with downed states.

While I agree that the downed state does need some changes, this thread is stupid.

I like that the world revolves around you and your one profession. Thanks for setting things straight, smart guy.

Where in my post did I say that? I just stated that it’s ironic that the OP is complaining about specific situations in which he has the superior class / spec / abilties to deal with downed state. I’m not saying downed state doesn’t have it’s problems. It does have a lot of problems.

remove down state

Phzt.9864:

The downed state puts a soft limit on small group warfare. Too many posts are focusing on even numbers or 1v2, 1v3. What people are complaining about is how it effects those numbers magnified to 5v15, 10v20, etc. The downed state mechanic gets more favorable for the larger/defending side the larger the fight is, which is a detriment to this game becoming something like DAOC, among other things. I understand why they put downed state in for spvp and pve, and I think they should stay there, but in WvW, it’s hindering the game’s progress toward a skill driven, small scale warfare game.

There’s nothing more discouraging then fighting a 5v13 and downing 20 people, losing none of your own because of the inability to finish. You will eventually lose or just need to run simply because they had more people that pressed a single button. In small scale, sacrificing one utility/weapon skill/class skill that ensures a finish is acceptable, but as numbers increase, the value of survival abilities scales higher as well. Popping them for finishers means you will probably die.

We have played this game DAOC style since like 2 weeks after the game released. Never had any problems. Don’t know what all the fuss is about/get good/get more damage/get better teamwork etc etc etc. Tired of trying to argue this just because some people can’t do it and want to selectively ignore things they don’t like.

Phzt.9864:

The downed state puts a soft limit on small group warfare. Too many posts are focusing on even numbers or 1v2, 1v3. What people are complaining about is how it effects those numbers magnified to 5v15, 10v20, etc. The downed state mechanic gets more favorable for the larger/defending side the larger the fight is, which is a detriment to this game becoming something like DAOC, among other things. I understand why they put downed state in for spvp and pve, and I think they should stay there, but in WvW, it’s hindering the game’s progress toward a skill driven, small scale warfare game.

There’s nothing more discouraging then fighting a 5v13 and downing 20 people, losing none of your own because of the inability to finish. You will eventually lose or just need to run simply because they had more people that pressed a single button. In small scale, sacrificing one utility/weapon skill/class skill that ensures a finish is acceptable, but as numbers increase, the value of survival abilities scales higher as well. Popping them for finishers means you will probably die.

This idea that the revive mechanic greatly favors the larger gorup is an idea that keeps coming up in these threads. It is a flawed concept.

Attrition favors numbers; therefore, attrition favors the larger group. The revive mechanic does nothing to change that in respect to the larger group. If the larger group is able to control the fight enough to revive its players while preventing the smaller group from doing the same, then they are in enough control of the fight to win because of numbers alone.

On the other hand, if the smaller group can keep itself from over extending and can revive its own downed players while largely denying the larger group the same privilege, the smaller group becomes larger than its numbers suggest and can actually make attrition work in its favor. Thus, the claims that this mechanic works against a smaller, more skilled group are actually wrong. If you are skilled enough to take out a larger group to begin with, then you are skilled enough to turn this mechanic to your favor. Otherwise, it is simply a wash or a way to speed up the inevitable.

Sotaudi.1265:

Phzt.9864:

The downed state puts a soft limit on small group warfare. Too many posts are focusing on even numbers or 1v2, 1v3. What people are complaining about is how it effects those numbers magnified to 5v15, 10v20, etc. The downed state mechanic gets more favorable for the larger/defending side the larger the fight is, which is a detriment to this game becoming something like DAOC, among other things. I understand why they put downed state in for spvp and pve, and I think they should stay there, but in WvW, it’s hindering the game’s progress toward a skill driven, small scale warfare game.

There’s nothing more discouraging then fighting a 5v13 and downing 20 people, losing none of your own because of the inability to finish. You will eventually lose or just need to run simply because they had more people that pressed a single button. In small scale, sacrificing one utility/weapon skill/class skill that ensures a finish is acceptable, but as numbers increase, the value of survival abilities scales higher as well. Popping them for finishers means you will probably die.

This idea that the revive mechanic greatly favors the larger gorup is an idea that keeps coming up in these threads. It is a flawed concept.

Attrition favors numbers; therefore, attrition favors the larger group. The revive mechanic does nothing to change that in respect to the larger group. If the larger group is able to control the fight enough to revive its players while preventing the smaller group from doing the same, then they are in enough control of the fight to win because of numbers alone.

On the other hand, if the smaller group can keep itself from over extending and can revive its own downed players while largely denying the larger group the same privilege, the smaller group becomes larger than its numbers suggest and can actually make attrition work in its favor. Thus, the claims that this mechanic works against a smaller, more skilled group are actually wrong. If you are skilled enough to take out a larger group to begin with, then you are skilled enough to turn this mechanic to your favor. Otherwise, it is simply a wash or a way to speed up the inevitable.

Its literally out of the smaller groups hand to decide if the larger group will win or not. If the larger group decides to res all their downed allies there is no possible way the smaller group can win.

Rally is broken in large fights period. It favors aoe spammers and punishes support and ST dps. I wouldn’t begin to tell you how to fix it other than removing it entirely from wvw and giving people a % bonus to hp to compensate. That’ll never happen though so your best bet is to get used to it sadly.